Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcasts, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information,
Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com.
Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning
Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a
Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session sixty eight
Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I'm excited to
Speaker 1: share that the TBG store is now officially open for business,
Speaker 1: so if you've been waiting to get your hands on
Speaker 1: merch for the podcast as you can find it at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash shop. For today's episode,
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Jennie Hopgood to discuss healing after a miscarriage.
Speaker 1: Janet is a couple and family therapists, clinical sexologists, and
Speaker 1: sexuality educator in the Philadelphia area. She's originally from Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: New York, and holds two master's degrees. In marriage and
Speaker 1: family therapy and human sexuality education. She is currently a
Speaker 1: doctoral candidate at Widener University working on her dissertation for
Speaker 1: a PhD in Human sexuality studies. Janet is also the
Speaker 1: founder of the blog black angel Mom dot com, which
Speaker 1: focuses on parinatal laws in the black community as well
Speaker 1: as family creation. Her passions include working with lgbt Q
Speaker 1: plus black couples, in individuals, parenting, family of origin issues,
Speaker 1: fertility issues, film empowerment, processing, grief and lawss, black feminism,
Speaker 1: racial justice, and healthy sexuality. Jane and I chatted about
Speaker 1: some of the common challenges experienced after a miscarriage, how
Speaker 1: miscarriages impact partnerships, how to support a loved one who's
Speaker 1: had a miscarriage, and of course, she shared all of
Speaker 1: her favorite books for you to learn more. If you
Speaker 1: hear something you think others should hear while you're listening,
Speaker 1: please share it on social media using the hashtag tv
Speaker 1: G in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us today, Janney, Thank you, thank you for
Speaker 1: having me. Yeah, so I know you know. We talked
Speaker 1: about um the statistics right of how often women actually
Speaker 1: are struggling with miscarriages. So one in four pregnancies you mentioned,
Speaker 1: actually we do end in miscarre So this is likely
Speaker 1: an issue that lots of people know about and have experienced,
Speaker 1: and sometimes even if they didn't know that they were pregnant,
Speaker 1: right exactly, absolutely. Yeah, the statistics that I mentioned is
Speaker 1: definitely for people who were aware that they were pregnant,
Speaker 1: so that's what the reporting is about. But there's all
Speaker 1: those people who may just have thought that they had
Speaker 1: a late period um that actually were pregnant but lost
Speaker 1: the pregnancy. So yeah, yeah, and so can you tell
Speaker 1: me a little bit about what are some of the
Speaker 1: common concerns or things that come up for women after
Speaker 1: a miscarriage. Yeah, So, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders in general,
Speaker 1: we sometimes refer to them as p mads. Um, they
Speaker 1: come up for anyone who has um, or can come
Speaker 1: up for anyone who has had any kind of child
Speaker 1: or pregnancy or whatever. But definitely when there's a loss involved,
Speaker 1: it's kind of complicated. Um. So you're looking at the
Speaker 1: grief stuff right of, like, oh my gosh, what's what's
Speaker 1: going on with my body? What happened in the situation,
Speaker 1: All the uh stages of grief as we could go
Speaker 1: through them if we wanted to. But like, all those
Speaker 1: same things happen for people who experience paran neatal laws.
Speaker 1: And then things like anxiety and depression and irritability and
Speaker 1: anger UM O c D you know, obsessive compulsive types
Speaker 1: of UM disorders and and just behaviors UM even psychosis.
Speaker 1: And you know where you're seeing or hearing things or
Speaker 1: having delusions or just seeming kind of odd and out
Speaker 1: of it and not like yourself. Um, all those things,
Speaker 1: all those things show up. Disordered thinking, UM, sometimes people
Speaker 1: feeling like they want to hurt themselves or other people,
Speaker 1: suicidal ideation, all that kind of stuff UM comes up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and UM, can you talk more about like the O
Speaker 1: c DPS, Like do you know why like O c
Speaker 1: D type behaviors might be something that pops up afterwards.
Speaker 1: Sure it's really about um wanting to be a perfectionist
Speaker 1: to a degree of p. But who actually people who
Speaker 1: have more perfectionistic type of characteristics and their regular personality
Speaker 1: are more likely to developed forms of postpartum depression and
Speaker 1: perinatal mood and anxiety disorders because things are not especially
Speaker 1: also if you're related to if you're having a loss,
Speaker 1: right because things didn't go the way that you wanted
Speaker 1: them to go. So then you become very hyper vigilant
Speaker 1: and very focused on making things happen the way that
Speaker 1: you want them to happen. So that can come out
Speaker 1: as UM, excessive cleaning that can come out of your
Speaker 1: space of yourself. That can come out as obsessive thoughts
Speaker 1: or um, you know, just constantly ruminating over what happened
Speaker 1: and what you could have done differently, or what you
Speaker 1: would do next time, and who did what, and and
Speaker 1: just not being able to get a handle on the
Speaker 1: impulses or the thoughts that you're actually having UM as
Speaker 1: a result of feeling really out of control. UM. So
Speaker 1: then you're trying to kind of make up for that,
Speaker 1: and your brain is trying to figure out your body too,
Speaker 1: just trying to figure out, like, what the heck just
Speaker 1: happened and how can we you know, correct that to
Speaker 1: get through this distressing period? Right, And I can imagine um,
Speaker 1: you know, and kind of listening to people's stories and
Speaker 1: reading one of the common things that come up for
Speaker 1: people is guilt, like is there something that I could
Speaker 1: have done to avoid this? Um? So can you talk
Speaker 1: more about that, because I'm sure you see a lot
Speaker 1: of that. Yeah, absolutely, I mean, you know there's this
Speaker 1: though parenthood and motherhood is not for every person with
Speaker 1: a vagina and a uterus, right, Like every person doesn't
Speaker 1: want to do that. Our society tells us that that's
Speaker 1: what a woman's role is. So there's all this messaging
Speaker 1: that we get around. If you have these body parts,
Speaker 1: then that means that you should be making babies, and
Speaker 1: when you don't do that, it makes you question. Or
Speaker 1: when you're not able to, or something comes up and
Speaker 1: and you're able to maybe get pregnant, but then you
Speaker 1: lose it, or you're able to go through almost your
Speaker 1: entire pregnancy and the baby passes away or there's a
Speaker 1: placental abruption or there's something that goes on with your body.
Speaker 1: You then start to blame yourself, right, And that's again
Speaker 1: part of like stages of grief and laws where you're
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what happened, and you're trying to
Speaker 1: bargain and you're trying and you're always thinking about what
Speaker 1: did I do? Or what if I had called the
Speaker 1: doctor sooner, What if I had not lifted that heavy thing,
Speaker 1: what if I hadn't had sex that day, or what
Speaker 1: if I didn't eat that spicy tune a roll or something,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like whatever, you start to
Speaker 1: think about all these different things that you should have,
Speaker 1: could have, would have done, and hopes that that would
Speaker 1: make it different, that make the outcome different. So it's
Speaker 1: kind of like, you know what happened, but you're struggling
Speaker 1: with accepting that reality. And then you're feeling guilty because
Speaker 1: in our messaging, our body is supposed to be able.
Speaker 1: Our bodies are supposed to be be able to hold and
Speaker 1: create life. So when it doesn't happen, it's kind of
Speaker 1: throws everything off and you feel like it's something that
Speaker 1: I did right, because like guilt is like I did
Speaker 1: something bad, and shame is like I am bad. So
Speaker 1: sometimes those two things interlock and overlap and all that,
Speaker 1: but definitely people experience that, like I did something that
Speaker 1: caused this thing to happen. And people also say horrible
Speaker 1: things to people who have lost children. That don't think
Speaker 1: that they always mean to say not so great things,
Speaker 1: But people are always trying. Everyone's always trying to figure
Speaker 1: out the why, and a lot of some of the
Speaker 1: time you don't actually have a clear reason for what occurred, right,
Speaker 1: I think probably the majority of time you don't. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: unless you get some extra testing or whatever, Like, you're
Speaker 1: not necessarily gonna know what happened that resulted in this loss.
Speaker 1: But people are always asking why, And there's all these
Speaker 1: wives sales about what, um, you know, what you could
Speaker 1: have done or didn't do, donate that spicy thing makes
Speaker 1: don't lift that case of water is in your miscare, Like,
Speaker 1: there's all these messages that come around that. So it
Speaker 1: makes you feel again, how we're socialized is that I
Speaker 1: must have caused this in some way because I should
Speaker 1: have been able to do this, and the fact that
Speaker 1: I wasn't or I'm not able to, or I lost
Speaker 1: this pregnancy or whatever indicates that then I must be
Speaker 1: I must have done something to make that happen. And
Speaker 1: it's disordered thinking, but it's also you feel responsible, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think you bring up a good point in
Speaker 1: day about you know, like how society kind of grooms
Speaker 1: us to believe that if you have these parts, that
Speaker 1: this is what your body should be doing. Um. And
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know if there are any like cultural
Speaker 1: kind of nuance that you want to add to the
Speaker 1: conversation just related to black women, right, Like, does that
Speaker 1: take the conversation even in a different direction because of
Speaker 1: some of the cultural pieces of being black women. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I mean if you even I mean goodness, we have
Speaker 1: been as black women. We have been mothering and raising
Speaker 1: everyone forever, you know what I mean. Like, so that's
Speaker 1: kind of, um, it's ingrained in us from the from
Speaker 1: the womb almost. It's ingrained in us in the way
Speaker 1: that we socialize our female body children, you know, like
Speaker 1: we we socialize them to do things that are more
Speaker 1: along the lines of homemaking and um, mothering and parenting
Speaker 1: and things like that. So there's again there's all these
Speaker 1: messages around this is what we do. We're about family,
Speaker 1: We're about creating life. We're about taking care of little
Speaker 1: people and raising them up. So I think that we
Speaker 1: we we get that, um, we get that in generalised women,
Speaker 1: but we definitely get that from a cultural perspective. UM.
Speaker 1: And we get more questions sometimes about why we don't
Speaker 1: have kids if we are older, or if we haven't
Speaker 1: if we're in a relationship and we haven't created children
Speaker 1: or whatever. We get a lot of that that line
Speaker 1: of questioning like, well, what's what's going on? Then people
Speaker 1: start with the other questions that are offensive, is heck,
Speaker 1: you know, are you are you a lesbian? Are you this?
Speaker 1: Are you that? Or you know? Whatever? That is not
Speaker 1: asked from actually a place of curiosity, it's acts from
Speaker 1: a place of shame. Right, So what kinds of strategies
Speaker 1: or things do you do with your clients who are struggling,
Speaker 1: maybe with a miscarriage or a steal birth? Um? And
Speaker 1: and actually, let's back up, because are there some differences
Speaker 1: like the healing process if it's a miscarriage versus a
Speaker 1: loss later in pregnancy. UM, I mean there there's differences
Speaker 1: in the sense that frankly, of what you might have
Speaker 1: going out of the experience. So if you have an
Speaker 1: early term miscarriage, then you're not gonna necessarily have ashes
Speaker 1: or a funeral or you know, things like that. So
Speaker 1: the tangible tangibility of what you might have is um
Speaker 1: can be different, right, So you might be able to
Speaker 1: do more things with a person who lost a child
Speaker 1: or children later on in their pregnancy. UM. Like you
Speaker 1: can do cremation, jewelry, you can have a memorial service
Speaker 1: or a funeral, you can um, you know, visit grave
Speaker 1: sites and things like that that you're not gonna necessarily
Speaker 1: be able to do if if you had a miscarriage
Speaker 1: at eight weeks or ten weeks or something like that. UM.
Speaker 1: But in terms of the overall like healing process and
Speaker 1: and care and the work that you do, it's not, um,
Speaker 1: it's not entirely different given the time that you lost
Speaker 1: your your little one. So you can do everything from
Speaker 1: ultrasound pictures two UM, to visiting a grave site or
Speaker 1: having a balloon release, which is not that great for
Speaker 1: the environment, but you know, it happens, um doing a
Speaker 1: balloon release or a lantern. You can do cremation jewelry.
Speaker 1: You can do memorial tattoos, which is really really popular.
Speaker 1: You can also do walks that are during perinatal Lost
Speaker 1: Month or Infant Lost Month, which is in October, so
Speaker 1: it's called one of them. In particular, it's called the
Speaker 1: Walk to Remember, But it's basically, you know, a walk.
Speaker 1: Look at any other walk like the March of Dimes
Speaker 1: or whatever that is done to raise money for awareness
Speaker 1: around perinatal loss. But basically, at seven pm across the world,
Speaker 1: everyone likes a candle for their lost little one or
Speaker 1: someone that they know who lost a child. So basically
Speaker 1: it creates a continuous wave of light for twenty four
Speaker 1: hours because it's done around the world. So little things
Speaker 1: like that you can do to help memorialize and honor
Speaker 1: your little one and and engage in rituals to remember them,
Speaker 1: like maybe you want to remember their birthday, or maybe
Speaker 1: you want to remember the day that you found out
Speaker 1: that you were pregnant. You want to name them if
Speaker 1: you haven't named them, giving your little one a name
Speaker 1: is really important. In saying that out loud is really important,
Speaker 1: and having people use that name when they address your
Speaker 1: child is really important as well. It sounds like rituals
Speaker 1: would be a part of your work, like helping your
Speaker 1: clients maybe develop some kinds of rituals to memorialize and
Speaker 1: remember in those kinds of things. What kinds of things
Speaker 1: might you do specifically around some of the guilt or
Speaker 1: some of the anxiety that might pop up after a miscarriage. Yeah,
Speaker 1: reality testing, um, reality testing is really important, so you know,
Speaker 1: asking is there evidence of this thing? So if you
Speaker 1: say that you know, I'm a horrible person, my body
Speaker 1: is dysfunctional or malfunctioning or whatever, which is something that
Speaker 1: I've heard, you know, is how much evidence do you
Speaker 1: have to support that? And you know, if you just
Speaker 1: have this one thing that happened, even though it was
Speaker 1: a huge thing. But if this is one thing that happens,
Speaker 1: then you can't necessarily make a blanket statement about something.
Speaker 1: So I do a lot of that kind of reframing
Speaker 1: and um reality testing. Is there evidence of support that
Speaker 1: this thing is going on in your life? Um? And
Speaker 1: consistent evidence again, not just like one thing. Um. Also
Speaker 1: just allowing space for people to say what they feel right,
Speaker 1: because you can't. Everyone wants to fix everything, and it's
Speaker 1: really it's not easy as a clinician or even as
Speaker 1: a friend or whatever. It's to always hold space for
Speaker 1: someone who is hurting because you don't want them to
Speaker 1: be hurting. You want them to feel better. You want
Speaker 1: to see what you can do to make it better. UM.
Speaker 1: But sometimes, especially in circumstances like this, you just can't.
Speaker 1: You can't change what happened. It happened, right, So but
Speaker 1: I can sit here with you in this space. I
Speaker 1: can acknowledge that that's how you're feeling about it, and
Speaker 1: that your feelings are valid, and UM, you know I'm
Speaker 1: gonna help you work through those feelings because it might
Speaker 1: not necessarily be helpful for you to stay in that
Speaker 1: place for a long time. But sometimes people just need
Speaker 1: to get that out because nobody lets them say it, right,
Speaker 1: Like nobody lets them be UM in that that space.
Speaker 1: People always want to rush them to feeling better, and
Speaker 1: it's it's a process, and there's no time limit on
Speaker 1: your grief, like it's gonna it'll move. You'll move through
Speaker 1: it when you're able to move through it. So allowing
Speaker 1: space doing some you know, is there evidence of this
Speaker 1: thing that is happening or is it just this one
Speaker 1: instance that came up. Also self care, you know, self
Speaker 1: care is very very very very important. Being kind to
Speaker 1: yourself is also part of self care obviously, but actually
Speaker 1: like using kind words and kind language towards yourself, So
Speaker 1: saying things that are disparaging about your body and um,
Speaker 1: about your abilities or whatever, in the long run, that
Speaker 1: does a number on your self esteem and your self worth.
Speaker 1: So doing a lot of reframing work and self care
Speaker 1: work and positive affirmation work where we can is definitely
Speaker 1: something I also do in session. And I think another
Speaker 1: thing that likely comes up is UM probably some trepidation
Speaker 1: and anxiety about like even trying to get pregnant again.
Speaker 1: That's something that you see with your clients. Absolutely, people
Speaker 1: are terrified. They're terrified because you've had now this horrible experience, right,
Speaker 1: and then you're also like, so for some people it's
Speaker 1: extremely painful. For some people maybe not as much. Some
Speaker 1: people it's simply it's not simply, but for some people
Speaker 1: it's just blood. For other people, they've gone through a
Speaker 1: whole birth experience where maybe they needed an epidural, maybe
Speaker 1: they needed for steps, maybe they had some kind of
Speaker 1: traumatic birth situation. Um and so the trauma of the
Speaker 1: loss is there, but then also the trauma of that
Speaker 1: birth experience. And in some instances, some of these hospitals
Speaker 1: in places they send you home. They'll say, okay, well
Speaker 1: just go home and wait until you start to miscarry,
Speaker 1: which is horrifying, right, Like, how like that's ter They
Speaker 1: told they told me that, they said you can go
Speaker 1: home if you want, And I was like, oh no,
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not going home, Like I'm terrified to
Speaker 1: do that and be experiencing that on my own. Um. So, yeah,
Speaker 1: people have had this horrifying thing happened. This very traumatic event,
Speaker 1: maybe multiple traumas that have happened. The trauma of finding
Speaker 1: out that you're gonna lose the pregnancy or the baby's
Speaker 1: heart stop, or you had a placental abruption or you're
Speaker 1: going into labor too soon or whatever, like you had
Speaker 1: that that informational trauma. Then you've had the physical trauma
Speaker 1: of whatever is happen, and then you have the actual loss,
Speaker 1: like Okay, now this thing is, this period of my
Speaker 1: life is over. So people are terrified, like it's it's
Speaker 1: absolutely like it can absolutely be a post traumatic stress
Speaker 1: type of situation where anything that comes up that is
Speaker 1: related to that event is going to trigger you and
Speaker 1: can cause all kinds of things grief, birst, anxiety, um,
Speaker 1: grief versus just kind of like out of the blue.
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's a cause for there's a trigger like something
Speaker 1: happened and then you just burst out in the tears.
Speaker 1: And sometimes it's not. You could be just kind of
Speaker 1: walking down the street and then all of a sudden
Speaker 1: you're flooded with emotions and you break down. That is
Speaker 1: very really common in people who have experienced peranatal loss.
Speaker 1: So yeah, all these things can can show up at
Speaker 1: any given time. And then unlike some other traumatic situations
Speaker 1: that where someone might develop something like post traumatic stress disorder,
Speaker 1: they they may not have the exact experience again, right,
Speaker 1: so they it might be certain things that trigger a
Speaker 1: person feeling a stress response. In a normal situation dealing
Speaker 1: with pardonato loss, you're literally doing the same things that
Speaker 1: you just did, right, You're literally going to the same
Speaker 1: maybe the same doctor. And even if you're not going
Speaker 1: to the same doctor, you're doing the same type of things.
Speaker 1: Your feet are still in the stirrups, you're still getting
Speaker 1: your checks, you're still getting ultrasound pictures, you're still getting
Speaker 1: blood work, you're still so you have all these constant
Speaker 1: environmental and physical triggers that make it really hard for
Speaker 1: you to to even say, yeah, let me go down
Speaker 1: that road again, exactly exactly. It's horrifying for folks. It's
Speaker 1: horrifying for folks. And then sometimes they're really weighing out
Speaker 1: what what wighs more, what's more important to me, me
Speaker 1: trying to achieve this goal of being a parent, or
Speaker 1: like my sanity, because I'm tripping right now, like trying
Speaker 1: to go to this doctor, I'm tripping going past this
Speaker 1: hospital where I know I gave birth and where I
Speaker 1: had to leave my my my kids or whatever like that.
Speaker 1: That's horrifying. So people definitely have some trouble um making
Speaker 1: the decision to to try again and to continue again,
Speaker 1: and also as disappointment, like you had this thing and
Speaker 1: maybe you've maybe you've done a lot of work. A
Speaker 1: lot of people there's a lot of people who need
Speaker 1: assistance with fertility who do assistant reproductive technologies a r T.
Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of people who need a little
Speaker 1: help in that area. So if you've done all of
Speaker 1: this stuff where you feel like you've done all the
Speaker 1: right things, You've seen the right doctors, you have the
Speaker 1: right blood work, you may have maybe you change your diet,
Speaker 1: maybe you started working out more, maybe you decrease your
Speaker 1: stress level, whatever. You try to do all these things
Speaker 1: to prepare your body for this experience and then came
Speaker 1: crashing down. That's like, hella disappointing, and do I want
Speaker 1: to experience that level of disappointment again. And and on
Speaker 1: top of that, the recognition that and a lot of
Speaker 1: instances people people barely make it out of that. A
Speaker 1: lot of relationships fail. Question like what is the impact
Speaker 1: on you know, like relationships exactly, a lot of relationships
Speaker 1: fail as a result of a child dying. And that's
Speaker 1: even for you know, later in life. I'm not even
Speaker 1: talking about perinatal loss, but just in general, like the
Speaker 1: loss of a child, A lot of relationships don't survive
Speaker 1: that because you have well I'll come back to that.
Speaker 1: There's there's a lot of things around that. But um,
Speaker 1: and also like individually, you may not like you may
Speaker 1: have been at a place where you didn't want to
Speaker 1: continue living, and that may have been the lowest point
Speaker 1: that you've ever had in your life. Right, and like
Speaker 1: I'm terrified to even go back there because what if,
Speaker 1: you know, God forbid this happens again? Then what? Right? Yeah,
Speaker 1: so what kinds of things could you possibly do? I mean,
Speaker 1: and you've already said right, like even as therapist, you know,
Speaker 1: no matter your level of skill or whatever, like, some
Speaker 1: stuff is just really rough and your only job is
Speaker 1: to really be able to sit with a client through
Speaker 1: some of this. Um, But what kinds of strategies are
Speaker 1: things might you be able to do? Too? You know?
Speaker 1: So let's say somebody says this was awful, but I
Speaker 1: know in my heart that I really want to be
Speaker 1: a parent, So I want to get to a place
Speaker 1: where I can't try again. UM, what kinds of things
Speaker 1: might you be able to do with them to kind
Speaker 1: of work through the anxiety of like doctor's business and
Speaker 1: all of this stuff to help them get in a
Speaker 1: better place to be able to try again. UM, A
Speaker 1: few things, So naming it right, like actually saying I'm scared,
Speaker 1: Like it's okay for me to say that, for people
Speaker 1: to say, like I'm I am nervous, as how about
Speaker 1: going back to disappointment or trying this thing again, So
Speaker 1: putting words to the feelings so that they're not just
Speaker 1: kind of bottled up or boiling up and you and
Speaker 1: festering and then you know, creating other problems down the
Speaker 1: line with stress and and indigestion and whatever other things
Speaker 1: can come up from holding things in. So actually like
Speaker 1: using your words and saying this is this is really
Speaker 1: scary for me. UM, taking a support person with you.
Speaker 1: Try as often as you can to like bring bring
Speaker 1: your partner two appointments, Bring a friend, bring a parent
Speaker 1: or um, you know, just someone that you feel very
Speaker 1: loved and supported by, bring them with you to the
Speaker 1: appointment so that you're not doing it alone, and sometimes
Speaker 1: that's challenging because you know when appointments are or how
Speaker 1: often you may need to go, especially if you're doing
Speaker 1: fertility treatments. But as often as you can, try not
Speaker 1: to be in the spaces by yourself. UM. Also thinking literally,
Speaker 1: which I think I mentioned a little bit earlier, but
Speaker 1: about what is kind of what's in your area of control,
Speaker 1: like what can soil, really being very concrete about what
Speaker 1: you can control and what you can't. Ultimately, none of
Speaker 1: us can control the outcome of a pregnancy. We don't
Speaker 1: know whether it's gonna stay or it's gonna not, like
Speaker 1: you don't know. But what you can control is making
Speaker 1: sure that you're getting two appointments, making sure you're doing
Speaker 1: the right lietary things that you need to do, UM
Speaker 1: just for health for yourself and for your child. UM.
Speaker 1: Making sure that you have access to whatever support lines
Speaker 1: are available. Some some doctors offices actually have or even
Speaker 1: migwiffery services have UM like almost like a crisis call
Speaker 1: line where you can call and just ask a quick
Speaker 1: question or be seen very quickly, so like if you
Speaker 1: just need if you're having some anxiety or something and
Speaker 1: you are feeling like I don't know, it's too long
Speaker 1: until my next ultrasound appointment or whatever. You can go
Speaker 1: in and get a quick ultrasound like immediately. So finding
Speaker 1: out what those what those services are that your particular
Speaker 1: physician offers is also really helpful because again that's like
Speaker 1: something that you can control. So then you know that
Speaker 1: you have the supportive services in place. Thinking about what
Speaker 1: what areas you may um sometimes you can actually use
Speaker 1: the negative thoughts and the guilty thoughts that you were
Speaker 1: having afore to inform what you do moving forward. Right,
Speaker 1: So if if I felt that I had that something
Speaker 1: was going wrong or whatever, and maybe I called the
Speaker 1: doctor and maybe they dismissed me, well then you know
Speaker 1: that moving forward, you might be a little bit more adamant, right,
Speaker 1: Like you will say like I'm not no, you will
Speaker 1: not dismiss me. I need to come in immediately. And
Speaker 1: even if you come in and they're like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: she's back again, back and back again, and everything's fine whatever,
Speaker 1: but you know you went, you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker 1: So just thinking about what is in your looks of
Speaker 1: control too to address and to support and to help
Speaker 1: reduce some anxiety. Also, self care of course is important
Speaker 1: recognizing where some of your UM, some of your responses
Speaker 1: are coming from. Like there, it's trauma related. So seek support.
Speaker 1: Support groups, their support groups for people who are pregnant
Speaker 1: with their rainbow babies, which rainbow is just the baby
Speaker 1: that you have after the baby that you lost. There's
Speaker 1: plenty of support groups that are out there for free
Speaker 1: for that type of service. Finding out what supports exist
Speaker 1: through your physicians office and UM, going to therapy, listening
Speaker 1: to podcasts, you know, stuff like that that helps to
Speaker 1: give you some information but also gives you some support
Speaker 1: and a space for you to talk. Going on some
Speaker 1: of the forums. There are forums particularly for people who
Speaker 1: have UM, who's going through fertility issues UM, and they're
Speaker 1: topics about everything pretty much. So Yeah, And I think
Speaker 1: that's one of the like beauties and maybe sometimes curses
Speaker 1: of the Internet, right because I think you can find
Speaker 1: incredible spaces of support like the baby center boards and
Speaker 1: all of those are incredible, UM, but I think they
Speaker 1: can also increase anxiety sometimes, So I do want people
Speaker 1: to be careful, like, yes, it can be support, but
Speaker 1: also know your limits when you're kind of participating in
Speaker 1: the forums. Yes, absolutely, because you will get a lot
Speaker 1: of information and even just in general being in like
Speaker 1: as a lost parent or angel parent myself. You know,
Speaker 1: you I've experienced or heard or read or whatever people's
Speaker 1: stories and I'm like, oh my god, like you know this,
Speaker 1: like that didn't happen to me, but it's like wow,
Speaker 1: there's so many things that can happen. And then of
Speaker 1: course that also can raise your anxiety, so you know,
Speaker 1: instead of you know, I think, use it for what
Speaker 1: it's worth. Like you said, you know when to such
Speaker 1: your limits and know when to you know, take a
Speaker 1: break and consult with your actual physician about your situation,
Speaker 1: not everything else that could possibly be great. That's a
Speaker 1: great point. Yeah, And when you mentioned the whole thing
Speaker 1: of like using your negative thoughts from the previous times
Speaker 1: to kind of inform future decisions, it made me think
Speaker 1: about like all the research and um stuff that we
Speaker 1: probably already knew what was going on, but now their
Speaker 1: numbers to support our experiences. UM in terms of you know,
Speaker 1: like black women not being listened to by their doctors,
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes having to be more forceful and assertive
Speaker 1: and saying, you know, like I know that this is
Speaker 1: going on, this is my body. I want to be
Speaker 1: checked out kind of thing. So I think that adds
Speaker 1: to like some of the cultural since we were talking
Speaker 1: about earlier to the Yeah. Absolutely, and have those conversations
Speaker 1: upfront when you go see if you go to the
Speaker 1: same doctor that you were seeing when you were pregnant before,
Speaker 1: or if you choose someone new, be sure to have
Speaker 1: that consultation and say like, hey, this is what happened before,
Speaker 1: and this is what I did not appreciate. So I'm
Speaker 1: looking for a practitioner or someone who's gonna be a
Speaker 1: little more responsive. I mean I I changed doctors and
Speaker 1: I had to say that to them, Like I was like, okay, listen,
Speaker 1: here's the deal about what occurred. This is not what
Speaker 1: I want. And that's how I found out about the
Speaker 1: kind of the emergency um center where you can get
Speaker 1: extra ultrasounds in between your appointments if you need to
Speaker 1: check on things or whatever. Um so yeah, advocate for yourself. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I do want to go back to the relationship
Speaker 1: piece that we touched on a little bit, because I
Speaker 1: do think that will be important, um like just the
Speaker 1: experience or the impact that this kind of experience has
Speaker 1: on a couple or partnership. Yeah. So loss is hard, man,
Speaker 1: I mean, loss is hard for for everyone, but and
Speaker 1: lass is different for everyone, So everyone has a different
Speaker 1: response to this kind of trauma. The person who was
Speaker 1: pregnant has the physical body trauma response and of course
Speaker 1: the grief and loss around that, and and they may
Speaker 1: manifest that in a variety of ways. People who have
Speaker 1: a uterus usually are a little bit more um emotional
Speaker 1: and that they may cry more, they may go to
Speaker 1: more places of depression UM and anxiety UM and sometimes
Speaker 1: some irritability as well. But those are kind of like
Speaker 1: the typical things that show up in response to laws.
Speaker 1: But if you are in a heterosexual relationship, though, sometimes
Speaker 1: the male partner does not UM emote in the same
Speaker 1: way UM. And so there's sometimes this discrepancy where people
Speaker 1: are like, he doesn't care. It didn't affect him as
Speaker 1: much as it affected me. Um, He's just focused on work,
Speaker 1: or on hanging out with his friends, or on whatever else.
Speaker 1: Besides whatever. The emotional piece is that the that the
Speaker 1: female partner is experiencing UM. So sometimes well a lot
Speaker 1: of times at least to a lot of fights, and
Speaker 1: in my experience, UM, it's a lot of like you
Speaker 1: don't love the baby as much as I love them,
Speaker 1: You didn't miss them. You don't miss them as much
Speaker 1: as I miss them. You don't you don't really care,
Speaker 1: or you just want to replace, you want you wanted
Speaker 1: me to just get pregnant again, like right away, and
Speaker 1: I'm still dealing with the grief and loss around that.
Speaker 1: So there's this kind of comparison and you know, who
Speaker 1: loves the baby more kind of thing, which just breeds
Speaker 1: a lot more fights and a lot more lack of
Speaker 1: communication and misunderstandings and things like that. Um. Also, the
Speaker 1: losses so can be so challenging that sometimes people just
Speaker 1: don't talk about it period, right, Like they don't really
Speaker 1: want to address it. So they're either going on about
Speaker 1: their day as though it didn't really happen, or maybe
Speaker 1: they are really emotional and having like emotional experiences, but
Speaker 1: they're not actually communicating about like, man, like this just
Speaker 1: happened to us, Like are you okay? Are you okay?
Speaker 1: Like what do you what do you need? How can
Speaker 1: we help? Um? Trying to find a sense of normalcy
Speaker 1: after a loss is really challenging. And the fact is
Speaker 1: like people try and get back to normal quote unquote,
Speaker 1: but you you got a new normal now, like it's not.
Speaker 1: Your life is not gonna look how it looked before
Speaker 1: because you've had this traumatic event that has happened. And
Speaker 1: I will put a caveat that. Everybody doesn't see a
Speaker 1: miscarriage or a stillborn or a neon nate death as
Speaker 1: um something traumatic. Actually, I will say more so for
Speaker 1: a miscarriage. Sometimes people have them and it's not that
Speaker 1: big a deal for them, just like anything else, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Sometimes people have a trauma response
Speaker 1: and sometimes people don't, but usually or more often than not,
Speaker 1: people have some feelings about it when it occurs UM,
Speaker 1: and it's it's important to acknowledge those feelings and to
Speaker 1: talk about those feelings and to get some support um
Speaker 1: from a therapist or a counselor or if you know
Speaker 1: your spiritual leader that's where you feel like going, like whatever,
Speaker 1: it's important for you to have that extra level of
Speaker 1: support and communication about it because you can't brush it
Speaker 1: under the rug. So when couples decide to either turn
Speaker 1: on each other because they're angry and don't know what
Speaker 1: to do with that part of their grief, or they
Speaker 1: turn away from each other in distress, instead of turning
Speaker 1: towards each other's support, they turn away and they seek
Speaker 1: support from outside sources, whether that's their friends or their
Speaker 1: job or whatever, something to distract them from whatever happens
Speaker 1: um or or they just become like really really contentious
Speaker 1: with each other in their home environment. All those things
Speaker 1: put a significant strain on their really aation ship. So
Speaker 1: you got the person like that said, that has been pregnant,
Speaker 1: that has the body trauma and the emotional response to it.
Speaker 1: And then you as a person who witnessed all of that, right,
Speaker 1: like the person who was there in the delivery room,
Speaker 1: the person who was in the bathroom and saw all
Speaker 1: the blood or saw you in so much pain, the
Speaker 1: person who loves you and couldn't help you, and like
Speaker 1: what that brings up for them in terms of their
Speaker 1: own feelings of guilt and feelings of incompetence. I've heard
Speaker 1: that so many times, and I feel like I couldn't
Speaker 1: like I'm incompetent, I couldn't do anything to stop this,
Speaker 1: So I didn't make a different decision earlier on that
Speaker 1: maybe would have not had us be in this particular situation.
Speaker 1: There's often uh, the person who is not pregnant is
Speaker 1: often in a position of support and they want to
Speaker 1: support and protect the person who is and when they
Speaker 1: can't and they see the dismantling that occurs as a
Speaker 1: result of paranatal loss, they are lost. They don't know
Speaker 1: what to do and they don't know what to do
Speaker 1: with the feelings around it because people also, um, I
Speaker 1: have a one of my black posts earlier on was
Speaker 1: about this, like, are they are they asking how you are?
Speaker 1: Are they just asking you about how your partner is?
Speaker 1: People always do that too. They totally dismissed that this
Speaker 1: other partner has had an experience too, and though it
Speaker 1: may look a little different, they were there, they had
Speaker 1: the experience, They had a loss as well. They may
Speaker 1: have had these dreams and hopes for their new identity
Speaker 1: as a parent that now they don't have access to that,
Speaker 1: and then they are It's disenfranchised in a way because
Speaker 1: then people aren't even checking on them. They're just like, oh,
Speaker 1: how so and so doing? I know you got, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry for your loss. How she doing? And it's like, okay,
Speaker 1: she's gonna through her stuff, but what about me? Like
Speaker 1: I'm telling stuff too, So I'm glad you brought that up,
Speaker 1: because I do think that that is often lost in
Speaker 1: the conversations, right because so much of the focus is
Speaker 1: on whoever was actually, you know, pregnant, UM, that we
Speaker 1: don't often pay attention to the partners experience of the
Speaker 1: loss as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So it sounds like
Speaker 1: in addition to individual therapy, sometimes couples therapy would be
Speaker 1: a good option after a loss, as will. And it's like,
Speaker 1: I think that is actually what you should be doing
Speaker 1: because and people may need, you know, extra breakout sessions
Speaker 1: or maybe want to continue ongoing individual But this happened
Speaker 1: to the two of you if you're in a couple,
Speaker 1: It didn't just happen to the person who was pregnant, right,
Speaker 1: So like, yeah, both should be in here, like you
Speaker 1: to be in here talking about this and figuring out
Speaker 1: how you can support each other and move forward, and
Speaker 1: also allowing space for everyone to have their feelings, because
Speaker 1: even though some of the feelings come from other people,
Speaker 1: like people kind of invalidating the partner's experience, sometimes that
Speaker 1: also comes from UM. Sometimes it also comes from the partner,
Speaker 1: like the person who was pregnant, where they are just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling this thing, this is horrible, This happened to me,
Speaker 1: and they're ignoring that their partner had variance, right, And
Speaker 1: so you have the process and work through some of
Speaker 1: that stuff is important. And I think the other thing
Speaker 1: that people often UM. I know I've had listeners to
Speaker 1: ask questions about like, Okay, one of my best friends
Speaker 1: just had a miscarriage and I don't know what to
Speaker 1: do or I don't know what to say. So what
Speaker 1: suggestion would you have for like family and friends outside
Speaker 1: of the partnership. Who wants to offer a supporter to
Speaker 1: do something to be helpful? Listen? Listen, be willing to
Speaker 1: hear the story. Um. There's a lot of healing and
Speaker 1: people telling their story, so there's gotta be people to
Speaker 1: who are willing to witness your grief is really what
Speaker 1: it's It's called the term for it UM. So being
Speaker 1: in a position where you're willing to hear what the
Speaker 1: person has to say and all their feelings and not
Speaker 1: being in the space of trying to correct it or
Speaker 1: provide some saying that you think is helpful that might
Speaker 1: not be. You know, Like one of the things I've
Speaker 1: I've heard so many times is UM and I think
Speaker 1: it means well, And of course the image is sweet.
Speaker 1: But like when they're like, oh that baby is Jesus
Speaker 1: needed a baby for his garden, or that baby sitting
Speaker 1: on Jesus. Laugh until you get it, Like that's that's
Speaker 1: not helpful. I know you think it is, but it's
Speaker 1: not because the people, I guarantee you, they prefer that
Speaker 1: baby to be with them right right, like not picking
Speaker 1: flowers in the garden in heaven somewhere, you know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. Like that's so I think, like being trying,
Speaker 1: Like there's a reason that we have two ears in
Speaker 1: one mouth, so like listen more than you speak. It's
Speaker 1: like really really really important. UM, be willing to be
Speaker 1: part of rituals if you if you need to, you know,
Speaker 1: if they if that person asks you to be there
Speaker 1: to hold their hand while they light their candles or
Speaker 1: to um release a balloon for them, or to to
Speaker 1: light a candle during the wave of light or whatever like,
Speaker 1: be open to receive that um and to participate in
Speaker 1: that um. Small things like well this is not small,
Speaker 1: actually it's actually kind of big. But um, make dinner,
Speaker 1: make dinner for somebody, bring go to the supermarket and
Speaker 1: bring some groceries over the like the two days after
Speaker 1: we had our loss, one of our one of my friends, Um,
Speaker 1: I went to the supermarket and just like came to
Speaker 1: our house with like ten bags of groceries. And it
Speaker 1: was extreme, Like it wasn't something that I would have
Speaker 1: asked for, because people kept saying, do you need anything?
Speaker 1: Let me know if you need anything, and I had
Speaker 1: had no words like I don't know what I need,
Speaker 1: you know, um, But not having to worry about food
Speaker 1: was an extremely, extremely helpful thing. Do somebody's laundry, come
Speaker 1: wash some dishes, you know what I mean? Like I don't,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Say say the child's name right, asked,
Speaker 1: asked them about them, asked if you're comfortable, and if
Speaker 1: you don't put yourself in situations where you're not comfortable,
Speaker 1: But if you are, let them show you pictures if
Speaker 1: they want to, because that even though it may look
Speaker 1: strange to you, because people are not used to seeing
Speaker 1: children who are deceased or very early babies who are born. UM,
Speaker 1: to them, that's beautiful. And they stare at those pictures
Speaker 1: all time, probably and they look at them and they
Speaker 1: want to show people, but they're scared because they don't
Speaker 1: people to be offended their own people will be grossed out.
Speaker 1: They don't want people to be you know, offensive UM
Speaker 1: in their response and in their language, so they hide
Speaker 1: and they keep that part very separate. But they want
Speaker 1: to show you most of the time, and they would
Speaker 1: love for someone to say, do you have pictures? Or
Speaker 1: tell me about them, or tell me tell me what
Speaker 1: what their names were, or you know, when's their birthday?
Speaker 1: So if you can even this is kind of a
Speaker 1: bigger thing, but in the age of social media you
Speaker 1: might be able to do it very easily. But UM,
Speaker 1: try and remember their birthday and just say, hey, I
Speaker 1: was thinking of you. I know what's on those birthday today?
Speaker 1: You know they that's that's important. UM. Holding space, holding
Speaker 1: space being part of rituals, being a support person, offer
Speaker 1: to to do something that helps memorialize their lost one.
Speaker 1: Right like someone UM donated two trees in honor of
Speaker 1: our girls we had twins, Like a year ago, someone
Speaker 1: had two trees planet for them, beautiful, beautiful. Somebody else
Speaker 1: got us cremation jewelry. So some of our of their
Speaker 1: ashes are in UM two necklaces that I have in
Speaker 1: a bracelet that my partner has, showing that you care
Speaker 1: and that you understand that this was important to the
Speaker 1: person and that you didn't forget. That's like the biggest thing.
Speaker 1: People are so worried. Lost parents are so worried that
Speaker 1: people will forget that this happened to them and they'll
Speaker 1: forget their little one, and that's terrifying and infuriating, right, So, like,
Speaker 1: if you can show that you didn't forget and that
Speaker 1: you care about them and you care about what happened
Speaker 1: and you care about the story, that's always really helpful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: lots of suggestions, they are, Jenny, So, what are some
Speaker 1: of your favorite resources for people who want to read
Speaker 1: more or learn more or find out where they can
Speaker 1: get to support. What are some of your favorite resources
Speaker 1: for that? Sure? So UM in terms of like infertility
Speaker 1: and UM some laws related to that. I know I
Speaker 1: use Resolve a lot UM. So resolved dot com is
Speaker 1: like a forum place and like I said, it's a
Speaker 1: topic for pretty much anything that you could ever think of. UM.
Speaker 1: They have spaces there for people to to look things up.
Speaker 1: UM Postpartum Support International so p s I is the organization,
Speaker 1: but their website is Postpartum dot net. They have a
Speaker 1: lot of resources UM for supportive services in whatever community.
Speaker 1: Like there's a map so you can pick your state,
Speaker 1: in your city or whatever and see who's available in
Speaker 1: your area that specializes in this type of thing. UM.
Speaker 1: The Pregnancy Loss Directory UM that's from the is created
Speaker 1: by the woman who did UM Return to Zero, which
Speaker 1: is a film. It's on it's on Netflix if you
Speaker 1: haven't seen it, but it's about UM. It's about paranatal
Speaker 1: loss and it's about a still birth and her experience.
Speaker 1: But anyway, she has a directory of clinicians UM again
Speaker 1: by state that you can go to. UM. Two people
Speaker 1: I met this week and or two works that I've
Speaker 1: seen this this past UM. I was just at a
Speaker 1: conference for paranatal um mood and anxiety disorders. But one
Speaker 1: book is called A Dark Secret and it's about women
Speaker 1: of colors experiences with perinatal mood and anxiety disorders UM.
Speaker 1: Sometimes related to law, sometimes just related to postpartum stuff.
Speaker 1: But that's really helpful UM written by a woman of color.
Speaker 1: So great book. UM, check that out. UM. There's a
Speaker 1: journal I also got that it's called Recovery State of
Speaker 1: Mind and that UM. That is a journal also done
Speaker 1: by a woman of color, that is is sponsored by
Speaker 1: a project that deals with paranatal loss for women called
Speaker 1: Shades Are Blue. UM. The this is a book that
Speaker 1: is not done by people by a person of color,
Speaker 1: but I found it really helpful in working with people
Speaker 1: around grief and laws. There's a book called on Grief
Speaker 1: and Grieving and it's UM It's by the author David Kessler,
Speaker 1: but UM it really goes through grief and grieving in
Speaker 1: the inner world of grief and the outer world of grief,
Speaker 1: and it just really kind of helps you get a
Speaker 1: better handle understanding on on what's happening for you in
Speaker 1: terms of any kind of loss really, but it's obviously
Speaker 1: applicable to paranatal loss as well. UM, so really helpful. UM.
Speaker 1: I had the Black Angel Mom blog and I also
Speaker 1: have a closed Facebook support group called Black Angel Moms.
Speaker 1: You can access that by clicking on the Facebook icon
Speaker 1: on the blog. You'll take you right to the group
Speaker 1: and you have to answer some questions in order to
Speaker 1: get in. But that's a group that's exclusively for black
Speaker 1: moms who have experienced pernato loss. The Paranatal Mental Health
Speaker 1: Alliance for Women of Color it's a division of p
Speaker 1: s I to Postponed Support International, but they it's it's
Speaker 1: all women of color UM support people and professionals who
Speaker 1: deal with paranortial laws, paranorial mood and anxiety disorders. UM.
Speaker 1: There'll be a directory coming soon. So just some great
Speaker 1: great stuff to find support UM in general and then
Speaker 1: also some support like for us black women. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: where can we find out more information about you and
Speaker 1: your practice? Jenny sure? So my personal website is j
Speaker 1: h J Therapy dot com. So it's just my initials UM.
Speaker 1: So on their kind of talks about what what I do,
Speaker 1: and you know, people wanted to contact me regarding working
Speaker 1: together or coming to see me for session or whatever.
Speaker 1: That adds all that information there. UM. And then you
Speaker 1: can also contact me through the Black angel Mom dot
Speaker 1: com blog. There's a contact me page. But if you're
Speaker 1: not really sure about whether you want to see someone yet,
Speaker 1: but you really want to, like, just have some material
Speaker 1: to read about this stuff, have some things to share
Speaker 1: with your family and friends, because I tend to do
Speaker 1: some posts about UM what's helpful and what's not? You know,
Speaker 1: with some information that you you should know it could
Speaker 1: be helpful for you in addition to just like process
Speaker 1: in general feelings. But that's UM that's available as well,
Speaker 1: so you can just browse and see what your life
Speaker 1: show some people some stuff or comments or share or whatever.
Speaker 1: Um So either j h J therapy dot com or
Speaker 1: Black angel Mom dot com. Either way people can reach
Speaker 1: me sounds great. Well, Thank you so much for all
Speaker 1: of this information, Janie. I know it will be really
Speaker 1: helpful for people. Yes, I am hoping so that is
Speaker 1: why I did it. It was so great to chat
Speaker 1: with Jennie. One of the things I love most about
Speaker 1: the podcast is learning new things from my colleagues. Be
Speaker 1: sure to check out the books she mentioned as well
Speaker 1: as her blog. You can find this information in the
Speaker 1: show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session,
Speaker 1: and make sure to share this episode with two new
Speaker 1: people in your life or share your takeaways in your
Speaker 1: i G stories. Make sure to use the hashtag TBG
Speaker 1: in session. If you're looking for a therapist in your area,
Speaker 1: be sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if you want
Speaker 1: to continue this conversation and join a community of other
Speaker 1: sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in
Speaker 1: the thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com
Speaker 1: slash tribe, make sure you answer the three questions that
Speaker 1: are asked to gain entry. Thanks again for joining me
Speaker 1: this week, and I look forward to continuing this conversation
Speaker 1: with you all real soon. Take get care, p oftor,
Speaker 1: p oftor, p hotter, I, oft oftor p OFTTI