Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls podcasts, a
Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the
Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible
Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information,
Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com.
Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning
Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a
Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session of the
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls podcast. In today's episode, we'll be
Speaker 1: focusing on what happens when trust has been violated in
Speaker 1: your relationship and how to heal afterwards. For this conversation,
Speaker 1: I'm joined by doctor Tenisia Sapp, who is the director
Speaker 1: and CEO of a New Level Empowerment and Consultation LLC.
Speaker 1: She has over fifteen years of experience in the field
Speaker 1: and is an a sex certified sex therapist. She specializes
Speaker 1: in trauma focus counseling and sex therapy with both adolescents
Speaker 1: and adults. Her passion is centered upon building the self
Speaker 1: esteem of individuals who have experienced traumatic events. Her specialty
Speaker 1: is working with the transgender community, as well as individuals
Speaker 1: and couples experiencing low desire, erectile dysfunction, sexual pain, arousal disorders,
Speaker 1: and couples who just want to spice up their sex life.
Speaker 1: Using a sex positive approach, Doctor Sapp seeks to meet
Speaker 1: the client where they are and work with them to
Speaker 1: achieve the most desirable outcome. Dr saf and I discussed
Speaker 1: the importance of actually verbalizing expectations to our partners, developing
Speaker 1: a trust bank with your partner, how violations of trust
Speaker 1: impact intimacy, and she shared some of her favorite resources.
Speaker 1: If you hear something you'd like to share with others
Speaker 1: while you're listening, please share it with us on social
Speaker 1: media using the hashtag tv G in Session. Here's our conversation.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today, Dr Sap,
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm very
Speaker 1: excited to have you on the podcast. I mean, I
Speaker 1: have been an admirer of your work for a long time. Um,
Speaker 1: but we're in a couple of Facebook groups together, and
Speaker 1: I always think that you have some of the most
Speaker 1: insightful types of comments. Um So, I definitely wanted you
Speaker 1: to come on the podcast to just talk about partnerships
Speaker 1: and when intimacy looks like in partnerships, and I think
Speaker 1: sometimes people get that confused. Um So, can you tell
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what intimacy can look like
Speaker 1: in a partnership? Sure? Sure. Let me first say thanks
Speaker 1: for inviting me and having me. I think I am
Speaker 1: equally an admirer. The biggest thing that I see that
Speaker 1: comes up with intimacy and relationships is trust. Trust is
Speaker 1: a huge deal. When I'm working with couples, the biggest
Speaker 1: thing that we talk about is being intimate, whether it's
Speaker 1: sex or just are alone and quality time together is
Speaker 1: one of the most intimate relationships that a couple or
Speaker 1: intimate aspects of a relationship that a couple can have.
Speaker 1: And so when there is a breach of trust or
Speaker 1: an unmet expectation, those things come into play and really
Speaker 1: cause a barrier or really caused a rift within that
Speaker 1: relationship and lead to, unfortunately, the lack of intimacy or
Speaker 1: the lack of excitement or fulfillment in that intimate aspect
Speaker 1: of the real relationship. And when you talk about lack
Speaker 1: of trust, I think a lot of times you think
Speaker 1: about like, okay, somebody has been unfaithful. But of course
Speaker 1: there are tons of ways that trust can be broken
Speaker 1: down in the relationship. Can you share some other examples
Speaker 1: of things that may kind of result in a lack
Speaker 1: of trust in the relationship. Yes, So sometimes you're right
Speaker 1: that big piece of trust is the infidelity or someone cheating,
Speaker 1: if you will, But then we have other aspects of trust.
Speaker 1: So I thought you were going to respond this particular
Speaker 1: way to any event or a situation that came up,
Speaker 1: and you did not respond how I thought you would respond.
Speaker 1: A sense of safety, So safety being violated, whether it's
Speaker 1: through intimate partner violence or some sort of physical dispute,
Speaker 1: or if we're in a crowd and you didn't protect
Speaker 1: me in some way, shape, form or fashion, or you
Speaker 1: didn't emotionally give me what I needed from you. So
Speaker 1: those pieces also contribute to a lack of trust. And sometimes,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, finances, So a discrepancy and finances
Speaker 1: one person is a savor, when person is a spender,
Speaker 1: can enter fear with the trust within the relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and you mentioned that a lot of times those things
Speaker 1: go undiscussed right like, so nobody ever says like, this
Speaker 1: is what I needed from you in the moment, and
Speaker 1: now I'm disappointed that that didn't happen in his results
Speaker 1: in a lack of trust. Yes, absolutely, So what happens
Speaker 1: sometimes is I have these expectations. You know, I think
Speaker 1: about women. A lot of women tend to have this
Speaker 1: idea of what their prince charming. I'm speaking from a
Speaker 1: hetero normative view, but prince Charming is gonna act like this,
Speaker 1: or when I think of my ideal relationship, this is
Speaker 1: what it's gonna look like. And sometimes that's modeled off
Speaker 1: of what we've seen with our parents or what we've
Speaker 1: seen from our family of origin, and sometimes it's modeled
Speaker 1: behind um, what we see on television. So a lot
Speaker 1: of role models that come up are the hostables or
Speaker 1: from the Cosby Show, and this is what our relationship
Speaker 1: or what a healthy relationship should look like. So if
Speaker 1: my spouse or significant other doesn't meet those expectations or
Speaker 1: doesn't do those things that my daddy did or my
Speaker 1: mom did, then that trust is gone. Now I'm upset,
Speaker 1: And guess what, I didn't even know that was an expectation.
Speaker 1: I didn't know you wanted dinner when you walked in
Speaker 1: the house. I didn't know that you wanted to be
Speaker 1: sexually intimate four times a week. I didn't know that
Speaker 1: you didn't like your bath water at this temperature. I
Speaker 1: didn't know that you wanted to bid me. I didn't
Speaker 1: know that you expected me to take a shower every day.
Speaker 1: Um know, those are things that come up, and so
Speaker 1: what happens is the first time they're discussed is usually
Speaker 1: in the heat of the moment. So now we discussed
Speaker 1: this in the heat of the moment, and what is
Speaker 1: the significant other or the spouse do they have to
Speaker 1: defend themselves. So I still didn't hear you because I
Speaker 1: have to defend my actions. This is why I did
Speaker 1: what I did. And so now here we go, We're
Speaker 1: having a continued dialogue or discussion about an unmet expectation
Speaker 1: that I didn't even know existed. Now I have to
Speaker 1: defend myself. And so when it happens again, and it will,
Speaker 1: it still didn't get addressed because we never had a
Speaker 1: discussion about it. All we did was argue about it
Speaker 1: from the beginning. And you know, as you were talking,
Speaker 1: it also made me think just how we need to
Speaker 1: do a better job of having conversations in general, right,
Speaker 1: Because I think you mentioned and that a lot of
Speaker 1: times these needs and expectation don't go like discussed. But
Speaker 1: I wonder if sometimes we don't even know that we
Speaker 1: have the expectation, Right, Like, something happens at a crowded
Speaker 1: party and your partner doesn't react the way that you
Speaker 1: thought that they would react. Um, but you didn't even
Speaker 1: necessarily know that you wanted them to react in a
Speaker 1: certain way, right, So it's just all of these weird
Speaker 1: dynamics playing in the background that just kind of come
Speaker 1: to a head all at once. Yes, yes, And so
Speaker 1: what happens You kind of hit the nail right on
Speaker 1: the head, right. So while I didn't know that this
Speaker 1: was how I wanted you to react, I still have
Speaker 1: the expectation. Why did I have the expectation because this
Speaker 1: is how I assumed. There's that assumption peace Cliff Huxtable
Speaker 1: would have reacted, my daddy would have reacted this way,
Speaker 1: my mama would have reacted this way, Or there's some
Speaker 1: sort of learned piece, that social learning piece that happened
Speaker 1: in prior relationships and prior viewed relationships, or that relationship
Speaker 1: learning from my family, whether it was my auntie, whether
Speaker 1: it was my parents, whether it was my grandparents up somewhere. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's picked up somewhere. So in the back there's this expectation.
Speaker 1: So that's why as couples you have to have that dialogue.
Speaker 1: You have to talk about the what ifs. And a
Speaker 1: lot of times when we talk about what ifs. Right,
Speaker 1: when you think about couples and relationships and you talk
Speaker 1: about what ifs, people don't want to address those because
Speaker 1: that didn't even happen, So you're just trying to drum
Speaker 1: up something before something even happens. No, we need to
Speaker 1: talk about the what ifs. So now we're armed with
Speaker 1: knowledge of what my significant other desires or wants, you
Speaker 1: know that whole notion. Stay ready so you don't have
Speaker 1: to get ready. I know that my spouse doesn't play
Speaker 1: when it comes to that. I know that having a
Speaker 1: friend of the same sex or of the opposite sex,
Speaker 1: whatever the case may be. After we had a discussion
Speaker 1: about what's disrespectful in the relationship ships, So now we
Speaker 1: don't have to break trust because we've already established it.
Speaker 1: We added trust to our trust bank before there was
Speaker 1: ever a problem, So how would you go about working
Speaker 1: with a couple, like, how would you help them to
Speaker 1: have some of these conversations. So in my office, we
Speaker 1: talk about calling a spade a spade, and so we're
Speaker 1: pretty candid and and raw with with our discussions. And
Speaker 1: so we'll talk about it, we'll lay it all out
Speaker 1: on the table, and we'll have those hypothetical discussions. I
Speaker 1: like to bring extremes, and so my hypothetical situations are
Speaker 1: always way over the top and extreme because my philosophy
Speaker 1: is if I give you the absolute worst case scenario,
Speaker 1: anything else as a cake walk. So um. So on
Speaker 1: top of that, we then talk about those things and
Speaker 1: we add those into our trust bank, and so we
Speaker 1: talk about what that looks like. We talk about what
Speaker 1: you need to add into the trust bank, and that's
Speaker 1: what we focus on and we build on that so
Speaker 1: that way, when a situation happens and you're withdrawing from
Speaker 1: that trust bank, you still have a positive balance to
Speaker 1: go forward with mm mmmmmmmmm. And so you're using the
Speaker 1: trust bank much like we use you know, our actual bank,
Speaker 1: right like you use it as an analogy for you
Speaker 1: have to be able to make deposits into this trust bank.
Speaker 1: Between you and your partner so that when something happens,
Speaker 1: like an incident happens, that they're able to be withdraws
Speaker 1: me without it going bank growth. Absolutely, and we use
Speaker 1: real time money. So there's no credit um, there's no
Speaker 1: phone and a friend, there's no borrowing funds. That bank account,
Speaker 1: that trust bank account is built between the two people
Speaker 1: in that relationship, and then we make those deposits, and yes,
Speaker 1: we use it just like the A t M. If
Speaker 1: you don't have any money in your account, you cannot
Speaker 1: overdraw the A t M. You may be able to
Speaker 1: overdraw at Walmart if you press the credit but but
Speaker 1: at the A t M, if you don't have enough funds,
Speaker 1: it will say insufficient funds, no funds available, and you
Speaker 1: cannot withdraw over your limits. So, in addition to kind
Speaker 1: of preparing couples with like the tools to have these
Speaker 1: conversations by you know, doing these what if scenarios, what
Speaker 1: other kinds of things can couples or partnerships due to
Speaker 1: kind of make these deposits into the trust bank. So
Speaker 1: first we start with we spend a lot of time
Speaker 1: on what trust looks like for each person in this relationship.
Speaker 1: We also talk about what safety looks like in this relationship,
Speaker 1: and we work on doing those activities that help build
Speaker 1: trust and safety in those relationships. I take my couples
Speaker 1: back to the basics. So I take them back to
Speaker 1: where they were, you know, all warm and buzzy and
Speaker 1: giddy in the belly when they met, you know, where
Speaker 1: you know, everybody was cute, and everybody was hot, and
Speaker 1: and everybody was sexy and and everything was was warm
Speaker 1: and fuzzy and beautiful, and you saw unicorns and rainbows
Speaker 1: and you wanted to drop everything that you were doing,
Speaker 1: and nothing else mattered but the two of you. And
Speaker 1: so we go back to that safe space and the
Speaker 1: activities you were doing during that time that brought you joy,
Speaker 1: that let you know, you know, I just really love you,
Speaker 1: I really like you, you know, I really think you're
Speaker 1: really cool. Usually when they're telling those stories, their eyes
Speaker 1: light up and they smile, and they start feeling those
Speaker 1: warm and fuzzy feelings and butterflies in the belly all
Speaker 1: over again. And those are the moments we capture, and
Speaker 1: those are the moments that we worked to get back
Speaker 1: to because those were the joyful moments, and those are
Speaker 1: the ones that built the trust bank, and so we
Speaker 1: use those activities and then we enhanced for where you
Speaker 1: are now. So no, you may not be climbing stone
Speaker 1: mountain like you did before, or may not be going
Speaker 1: on escapades around the world like you were, but we
Speaker 1: can bring stone Mountain to your house. We can bring
Speaker 1: the escapades to your house. And let's talk about what
Speaker 1: that looks like now and what that looks like for
Speaker 1: where you are in this moment, so that we can
Speaker 1: build those joyful moments from where we are now. And
Speaker 1: so those are the things that really help couples identify Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: so this is what date night looks like for us
Speaker 1: now four kids in and no babysitter. You know, this
Speaker 1: is what sexual intimacy looks like now, six kids later,
Speaker 1: two grandkids, and maybe I don't have the stamina that
Speaker 1: I had when I was twenty. So here's what it
Speaker 1: looks like now and it's okay. So that definitely sounds
Speaker 1: like some you know, things that couples could our partnerships
Speaker 1: can definitely be trying themselves, like, okay, how can we
Speaker 1: get back to remembering some of those times early in
Speaker 1: the relationship where everything was exciting and there weren't maybe
Speaker 1: as many responsibilities. How can we recapture some of that? Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I bring my Michael Jackson song into it. You know,
Speaker 1: do you remember the time I think I'm would play
Speaker 1: that in a session and we'll see I love that.
Speaker 1: So those are some of the things that people can
Speaker 1: do to kind of build up their bank. But I
Speaker 1: do think we need to talk about what happens when
Speaker 1: you do overdraw, right, um, And like you've already shared
Speaker 1: some of the things that can happen to bring down
Speaker 1: the intimacy, but what does the fallout of that look like?
Speaker 1: Sometimes after trust has been eroded in the relationships. So
Speaker 1: typically that looks like when I get the phone call
Speaker 1: of the schedule a session. Um, that's when couples. Couples
Speaker 1: come to see us once an overdraft has happened, once
Speaker 1: you get that insufficient funds letter in the mail, and
Speaker 1: it's not the first one, so it's not the first
Speaker 1: insufficient funds fee of thirty five dollars plus whatever the
Speaker 1: dollar is that you went over. By the time we
Speaker 1: get those phone calls, it's almost in the thousands of
Speaker 1: overdraft fees and funds and reversals and things of that nature.
Speaker 1: So we're repairing at that point first. Before we can
Speaker 1: even start talking about the work and getting you to
Speaker 1: the positive, we gotta get you to a zero balance.
Speaker 1: And so we're just really being honest and recognizing what
Speaker 1: happened and taking ownership and responsibility for what happened, and
Speaker 1: acknowledging that there is a problem and there's not just
Speaker 1: one person that played a role. We have multiple pieces
Speaker 1: that played a role in this. And now that we
Speaker 1: recognize that there is a problem and we agree that
Speaker 1: there are pieces to this puzzle that we both have
Speaker 1: contributed to. And in some cases that may very well
Speaker 1: be the case. And in some cases it really is
Speaker 1: just one sided when we're talking about the choice to
Speaker 1: have an extra relationship, so an affair or cheating or infidelity,
Speaker 1: whichever term you choose to use for that. So depending
Speaker 1: on the type of overdraft, that depends on how deep
Speaker 1: or how big of a level of repair work that
Speaker 1: we have to do. But I'm a big believer that
Speaker 1: if on the front end we handle things. If there's
Speaker 1: a big breach of trust, yes that's a huge withdrawal,
Speaker 1: but we put so much in the bank already that
Speaker 1: we can come and we can handle this we can overcome.
Speaker 1: But when we get to a point that you're coming
Speaker 1: in as last ditch effort, if this doesn't work, then
Speaker 1: it's not gonna work. Then those are hard. Those are
Speaker 1: harder to work with and harder to work on, because
Speaker 1: then my role as the clinician is to get us
Speaker 1: to a point that you trust me enough to work
Speaker 1: with you. And so that's where my work is, just
Speaker 1: getting you as the couple to trust me and to
Speaker 1: be able to share with me, and then being able
Speaker 1: to go backwards and heal those pieces of the relationship.
Speaker 1: I always share with my couples that once trust is broken,
Speaker 1: we can't go back and change that that trust is broken.
Speaker 1: That's like having a house with a cracked foundation. All
Speaker 1: we can do is build from this point forward. We
Speaker 1: can't go and repair foundation. It's done, the house is set,
Speaker 1: but we can build from here. We can't build old
Speaker 1: a new house, and building that new house requires new foundation,
Speaker 1: requires new walls, requires a new roof, and then we
Speaker 1: decorate the inside once all of that plumbing, all that
Speaker 1: good stuff, And so you can't build a new house overnight.
Speaker 1: You didn't build this relationship overnight. Knowing that pulling those
Speaker 1: expectations together so that they're realistic and they're achievable and doable.
Speaker 1: Helps to make that process and it helps even foster
Speaker 1: the trust between me as the clinician and you as
Speaker 1: the couple. So really, it sounds like what you're advocating
Speaker 1: for is to do a lot of like preventative and
Speaker 1: maintenance work on your relationship before anything happened, so that
Speaker 1: if and when anything should happen, you have enough of
Speaker 1: a bank account stored up to be able to withstand it, yes, ma'am,
Speaker 1: and before stay ready so you don't God got you.
Speaker 1: One of the things that, of course happened and after
Speaker 1: there has been a breach of trust is that there
Speaker 1: is a damage to physical intimacy. And you mentioned that
Speaker 1: people often don't realize like, of course there is a
Speaker 1: change to that. So can you talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about first why you think people miss that so much,
Speaker 1: and you know, like what work looks like to kind
Speaker 1: of restore that. Right, So when we talk about that
Speaker 1: change to physical intimacy, we're talking about sexual intimacy, and
Speaker 1: usually the biggest thing is, okay, so we're not having
Speaker 1: text anymore? Well, yeah, that's that's about accurate because here
Speaker 1: we are, we have this huge breach of trust or
Speaker 1: this huge breach of safety in this relationship, and the
Speaker 1: first thing to go is sex. Well guess what, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's gonna happen, because remember, as I said earlier, that's
Speaker 1: the most intimate connection that you're going to have in
Speaker 1: this relationship. And so in order to do that, that
Speaker 1: means I need to be vulnerable. I have to let
Speaker 1: my guard down, and in order for me to do that,
Speaker 1: I have to feel safe. So if those conditions aren't met,
Speaker 1: then no, it's not gonna happen. And so usually that's
Speaker 1: where people realize, oh, snap, we actually have a problem
Speaker 1: in this relationship. Why because we're not having sex anymore,
Speaker 1: or we're not cuddling, we're just having surface conversations. We
Speaker 1: don't even like each other. And so one of the
Speaker 1: things and how we work on rebuilding that again is
Speaker 1: really to work on building that trust, putting those trust
Speaker 1: deposits in the bank, re establishing what this looks like
Speaker 1: for you now versus what it looks like for you
Speaker 1: twenty years ago when you started dating. Twenty years ago
Speaker 1: and now are two different things. Too. Many life events
Speaker 1: have happened between here and there over the span of
Speaker 1: twenty years, you grew up, you matured, things change you
Speaker 1: were immature, or anything could have happened. You had kids,
Speaker 1: bought a house, lost job, gained a job, change careers,
Speaker 1: all kinds of significant life events could have happened between
Speaker 1: here and there. So that person that you knew then
Speaker 1: is different now because of growth and evolving. So one
Speaker 1: of the things that we do to work through that
Speaker 1: is getting to know who your partner is now and
Speaker 1: what they like now. And don't assume that because you've
Speaker 1: known them for twenty years or because they've known you
Speaker 1: for twenty years, that everything should still be the same,
Speaker 1: because they're not. And what people are finding out is that, oh,
Speaker 1: so you don't like pizza like you like before. Well no,
Speaker 1: because it gives me heartburn. I've been telling you that,
Speaker 1: but you you didn't hear me. So here we are now,
Speaker 1: or maybe there's weight changes or whatever the case may be,
Speaker 1: physical changes, whatever that looks like. And so we work
Speaker 1: on establishing who your partner is now, what they like now.
Speaker 1: And sometimes my couples get frustrated because you know, I
Speaker 1: already know this, I already know that person, but then
Speaker 1: that one new thing comes up and boom, Now we
Speaker 1: have exposure. Now we have that moment, that aha moment.
Speaker 1: So yeah, something did change. Yes, something did evolve in
Speaker 1: this relationship. Something did evolve over time. And now we're
Speaker 1: getting back to focusing on us in our relationship. And
Speaker 1: when we're doing that, all the while, we're building that trust,
Speaker 1: we're building that safety. I'm able to express myself without
Speaker 1: being judged for how I feel or without being judged
Speaker 1: for these experiences and you actually hear me. So we're
Speaker 1: improving communication, we're re establishing trust, we're building a new
Speaker 1: foundation where cultivating this relationship. So we're strengthening this relationship
Speaker 1: in this bond. And now guess what, I just got
Speaker 1: my best friend back. So yeah, I you thought I
Speaker 1: was swinging from the chandelier before, but I'm really swinging now.
Speaker 1: And hey, we're having fun with it too, right right,
Speaker 1: And I'm really glad you address those things because I
Speaker 1: do think you know, there's often the perception and again
Speaker 1: when we're talking about like a heteronormative kind of a couple,
Speaker 1: you know, like that the woman is withholding sex or
Speaker 1: you know, being punitive in some way because she's angry
Speaker 1: at her partner. When you don't realize like all of
Speaker 1: the factors that go into somebody deciding that they don't
Speaker 1: want to be intimate with someone. M hm, So let
Speaker 1: me let me be clear about that, because you brought
Speaker 1: up a good point about withholding sex. So sometimes people
Speaker 1: do do that as a form of punishment. But guess
Speaker 1: who ends up suffering. You're punishing your partner and your
Speaker 1: mate because they pitched you off for whatever reason. And
Speaker 1: so now you're saying, you know what, just because that happened,
Speaker 1: you're not getting none. You're not getting done for three
Speaker 1: or four or five weeks. Guess what, boo boo, that
Speaker 1: means you're not getting any either. And so if it
Speaker 1: comes down to me or you, guess who's gonna get their's?
Speaker 1: So who's winning here? Who? Who just won the golden prize?
Speaker 1: Now we're both equally frustrated and everybody's angry. No, don't
Speaker 1: do that. Now, that's that's different than I don't feel safe,
Speaker 1: we don't have trust, and so yes, this is now,
Speaker 1: this is not punishment. This is I don't have a desire,
Speaker 1: I'm not I don't like you right now, so it's
Speaker 1: hard for me to give you all my goodies and
Speaker 1: do all these tricks and twists and back flips if
Speaker 1: I don't even like you right now, right right, But
Speaker 1: that's not what we're specifically discussing here, right, No, but
Speaker 1: two completely separate things. Right, You didn't take out the trash,
Speaker 1: so you know, guess what, No, this is not your kid,
Speaker 1: and so no, this is not the way to to
Speaker 1: handle that. But if I'm not feeling safe, we don't
Speaker 1: have trust. Every time you say you're gonna do something,
Speaker 1: you don't do it. We may have had some physical
Speaker 1: altercations whatever the case may be, that broke that trust.
Speaker 1: And now here we are in this moment, and we
Speaker 1: can even add that piece into it. If I feel
Speaker 1: like I am I have to parent you, then yeah,
Speaker 1: that also is going to break down that sense of
Speaker 1: intimacy and desire and even arousal within the relationship because
Speaker 1: we're not having sex with our kids. So so those
Speaker 1: pieces also come up as well. But the biggest thing
Speaker 1: here is being able to have that discuss shin and
Speaker 1: being able to talk about what you need and being
Speaker 1: able to hear what your significant other or your partner
Speaker 1: needs without being defensive about it. Listen to them, hear them,
Speaker 1: and acknowledge that you hear them because they're entitled to
Speaker 1: their feelings just like you are. And then now let's
Speaker 1: work on how can we fix it. How can I
Speaker 1: contribute to making this relationship better? So you mentioned something
Speaker 1: after said that I feel like we need to go
Speaker 1: back to because I feel like I see a lot
Speaker 1: of conversations online and just you know, in life about
Speaker 1: like helping your partner and you know, like supporting your partner,
Speaker 1: and I think sometimes there is a line that gets
Speaker 1: crossed that does become a parenting kind of a thing.
Speaker 1: And like you mentioned, that doesn't typically breed attraction, right,
Speaker 1: Like if you feel like you are mothering someone, that
Speaker 1: definitely is not a sexual attraction. And so what can
Speaker 1: you say more about what that line is? Like, when
Speaker 1: do you go too far in the support in helping
Speaker 1: where it crosses the line to parenting. Oh gosh, that's
Speaker 1: a whole, that's a whole another reporting. And I knew
Speaker 1: as soon as I said it, I said, I'm about
Speaker 1: to open up a can of worm. Well, we gotta go,
Speaker 1: We gotta do we do though, because we're about to
Speaker 1: heal some relationships. Yes, So, yes, we're gonna heal some
Speaker 1: heal some relationships here, so here, here's the thing, right,
Speaker 1: And so a lot of times will will have folks
Speaker 1: who get into relationships and they're excited and you found
Speaker 1: you able and you know, yeah, you can be his
Speaker 1: ride of die check. You can hold him down. I mean,
Speaker 1: we ain't we ain't gotta die. But you can hold
Speaker 1: them down, right, you can hold them down. There's nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with being there for your boom. There's nothing wrong
Speaker 1: with with being the strength of being the support system,
Speaker 1: being the helpmate, whatever word you need in that moment.
Speaker 1: It's absolutely nothing wrong. However, when there comes a time,
Speaker 1: I think the hard fast, thick, thick, thick black line
Speaker 1: is when there is a point that our dynamics have
Speaker 1: shifted to where I am your only source. Does that
Speaker 1: make sense? Where I am the only person that And
Speaker 1: it could be something that I created, It could be
Speaker 1: the dynamics where the partner was codependent and I got
Speaker 1: drafted into this role. It could be a number of things.
Speaker 1: But the only piece of something is coming from me. Now.
Speaker 1: That does not count. When you out there and your
Speaker 1: mate is out there grinding and they lost their job
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, whether it was poor decision making on
Speaker 1: their end, or if the position was eliminated or whatever,
Speaker 1: or if you had a discussion about starting your own
Speaker 1: business and it just hasn't moved. How how you thought
Speaker 1: it was gonna move. And yeah, you're the only source.
Speaker 1: That's totally different. This is this has been your role
Speaker 1: from from the beginning, or this has been now your
Speaker 1: adapted role, and that is the expected role. So now
Speaker 1: instead of conversations where we are on a partnership level
Speaker 1: and we have a equal saying things, you are now
Speaker 1: the authoritative figure. You are the soul person as though
Speaker 1: you are now the parent every move we make, I'm
Speaker 1: looking to you to make this final decision and your
Speaker 1: word is final, not that we get to have a
Speaker 1: discussion about it, but you have the soul say and everything.
Speaker 1: Not that I'm looking to you or I chose to
Speaker 1: defer to you, but that is the rule. Those are
Speaker 1: our relationship rules and roles. And now I don't have
Speaker 1: this sense that this is now a partnership, but this
Speaker 1: is becoming a authoritative relationship or a dictatorship, and it's
Speaker 1: one sided. So now I am the only person handling everything,
Speaker 1: and I don't have a partner, I have a dependent
Speaker 1: and so now here we are, we don't have intimacy
Speaker 1: because well, you know, when I'm handed down the SmackDown
Speaker 1: all day long, UM, I really don't want to be
Speaker 1: intimate with somebody that um is my dependent because I'm
Speaker 1: not really out here having sex with kids. So here
Speaker 1: you are just another person. So now we're roommates or
Speaker 1: we're just kicking it and we don't have a relationship.
Speaker 1: We don't have a partnership. Yeah, I feel like that
Speaker 1: dynamic also happens, you know, when you get into a
Speaker 1: space of being the only one, like you mentioned to
Speaker 1: go to for support, but that you are also handling
Speaker 1: more of the load than the other person. You know,
Speaker 1: like they may be looking for a new job, but
Speaker 1: you're the one doing all the searching and you're the
Speaker 1: one reviewing the rhysumes and uploading it, and you know,
Speaker 1: like that the other person is not even kind of
Speaker 1: pulling their weight in what maybe even their endeavor. Right. So,
Speaker 1: but then when you even think about it from that perspective,
Speaker 1: so who wants the job? Because if you want the job,
Speaker 1: you're gonna look right, or that's the assumption or the expectation.
Speaker 1: So if you're spending time and you're out there doing
Speaker 1: a job hunt and you already have a job, but
Speaker 1: you're doing the job hunt for your spouse or significant other. Houston,
Speaker 1: we have a problem. Yeah, not that you can't assist
Speaker 1: with it. Of course, all day long, I happen to
Speaker 1: have leads. I can offer those to you if I
Speaker 1: happen to know somebody who's hiring. But what I can't
Speaker 1: do is get on the phone and schedule your interview.
Speaker 1: What I can't do is complete your your full application.
Speaker 1: Now I can I can assist you with completing your
Speaker 1: application because maybe it's online and typing it's not your strength. Well,
Speaker 1: you're sitting next to me, You're not out hanging with
Speaker 1: the whole knees while I'm at home complete in your
Speaker 1: job applications and and and doing your resume and um,
Speaker 1: and then handling everything else in the house. That's that's
Speaker 1: not okay, right, Okay, So I hope anybody needed to
Speaker 1: hear that. I was able to hear that. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: because I do thinks sometimes we find ourselves in these
Speaker 1: positions and you look up and you're like, wait, what
Speaker 1: happened here? But also you know there's no judgment either.
Speaker 1: If that's right, makes you happy, go for it, you know.
Speaker 1: So if you are that person and that is your
Speaker 1: role and it brings you joy, hear me when I
Speaker 1: say this, go for it. I'm happy for you because
Speaker 1: if that's working for you, let it. So it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of that that idea that it's not a problem
Speaker 1: until it's a problem. So I think that I just
Speaker 1: want to make it super clear that this is for
Speaker 1: that person who is struggling with this idea that I
Speaker 1: don't like this, I don't want this, not for that
Speaker 1: person who's saying, shoot this, that's gravy. You're gonna be
Speaker 1: a stay at home person and I'm gonna go out
Speaker 1: and work, go for it, do it, And that's okay too.
Speaker 1: But if that's not what you want and that's not
Speaker 1: your ideal relationship setting, then here is that support and
Speaker 1: encouragement for you to set those firm boundaries and it's okay. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like it all kind of goes back to
Speaker 1: that undiscussed expectation piece, right, Like, if it works for
Speaker 1: you and that's what y'all have discussed and that's what's happening,
Speaker 1: then fine. But if it's something that you found yourself
Speaker 1: in now and you don't like it, then there may
Speaker 1: be a conversation that needs to be head. Absolutely, that's it.
Speaker 1: That's it right there. So what are some of your
Speaker 1: favorite resources for couples, Like what kinds of books or
Speaker 1: websites or podcasts do you find yourself kind of suggesting
Speaker 1: over and over? Oh my goodness, UM, I'm trying to think.
Speaker 1: So one book that I always recommend to couples who
Speaker 1: may have had where there wasn't an affair or something
Speaker 1: like that. So there's a couple of books. One that
Speaker 1: comes to mind is called Getting Past the Affair. There's
Speaker 1: another one that I really like called Relationship Recipes. There's
Speaker 1: another one that I like that is called for Giving Forwards,
Speaker 1: about forgiveness. And then there's some self help books that
Speaker 1: I recommend two couples who are struggling with sexual pieces
Speaker 1: and intimacy within the relationship by Barry McCarthy. I give
Speaker 1: his information his books about intimacy and desire and things
Speaker 1: of that nature. So those are I think are the
Speaker 1: biggest tools that I utilized within my work as far
Speaker 1: as recommending books, I highly, highly highly recommend that people
Speaker 1: stay off Google. Um, don't google your relationship problems. Google
Speaker 1: did not solved the problem. Google heightens the paranoia. If
Speaker 1: you seek it, you will find it. So if you
Speaker 1: go looking for symptoms, you're gonna find those symptoms and
Speaker 1: they're going to fit your your ideal or your sense
Speaker 1: of something. UM. I also recommend that my people in
Speaker 1: relationships don't go talking about relationship problems to their single friends.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about practitioners who may be single. I'm
Speaker 1: talking about single friends. Because your single friends are good
Speaker 1: at being single, and so that's what they know, and
Speaker 1: that's their perspective that they're gonna give you. So if
Speaker 1: you're wanting advice, I usually have my couples go and
Speaker 1: talk to people who have been in relationships for a
Speaker 1: very very very long time. So I have them go
Speaker 1: find an elderly couple who have been together for over
Speaker 1: thirty years. So if they've been together for twenty, I
Speaker 1: want you to go find somebody who's been together for
Speaker 1: fifty uh, And that way you can talk to them
Speaker 1: about somebody who's together and and they like each other.
Speaker 1: So I don't want you to go find your great
Speaker 1: grandma and great grandfather who don't like each other and
Speaker 1: they're constantly fighting. But I want you to go find
Speaker 1: your Fred and Ethel who love each other, but you
Speaker 1: know they made throws, start sarcasm and shade at each
Speaker 1: other every so often, but at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: they have each other's bags. So go find your people
Speaker 1: or and add to your tribe, folks who who are
Speaker 1: where you aspire to be, and add that piece to
Speaker 1: your puzzle, at that piece to your relationship toolbox and
Speaker 1: learn and ask them questions, interview them, ask them the
Speaker 1: tough questions, how did you deal with this? How did
Speaker 1: you work through this? Did you experience this and believe
Speaker 1: it or not? Most couples will be open to sharing
Speaker 1: the pieces that they learned about each other, the pieces
Speaker 1: that worked and the pieces that didn't, especially couples that
Speaker 1: who may have gone through some stuff, because they'll believe
Speaker 1: in how to make this work and the things that
Speaker 1: you have to put into making this work. I work
Speaker 1: a little bit differently with my couples who are married
Speaker 1: versus my couples who are dating the hus My couples
Speaker 1: who are married have a different level of a commitment together.
Speaker 1: It's not as easy to walk away than it is
Speaker 1: for my couples who are just dating and trying to
Speaker 1: figure out. So we come from this lens on both
Speaker 1: sides of the spectrum with what do you want? But
Speaker 1: how bad do you want it? And how hard are
Speaker 1: you willing to work for it? When you're upset and
Speaker 1: you're married, you can't really go very far. You can
Speaker 1: go downstairs. You can go if there's an upstairs and downstairs,
Speaker 1: but you can go to the couch. When you're dating
Speaker 1: and you're upset, you can go home, and your home
Speaker 1: is typically at a different address. Now, if you live
Speaker 1: together in your dating then of course those dynamics are
Speaker 1: a little bit different. But still that level of commitment
Speaker 1: and investment may be different because if you're upset, you
Speaker 1: can go to your friend's house, you can go to
Speaker 1: a parent's house, and yeah you can when you're married
Speaker 1: as well. But what you're gonna put into that and
Speaker 1: how much effort you're gonna put into that is gonna
Speaker 1: look a little bit different, because maybe I don't want
Speaker 1: my family to know that we're having a problem, So
Speaker 1: I find that those pieces are a little bit different,
Speaker 1: and so how I may go about working with that
Speaker 1: or giving those tools may look a little bit different.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, the goal is
Speaker 1: still the same. Are we gonna be together? Are we not?
Speaker 1: And before we get into this, we need to be
Speaker 1: secure in our decision and know if we're gonna get
Speaker 1: into this or not, if we're gonna stay together or not.
Speaker 1: And knowing that also plays a role in the work
Speaker 1: and the effort that you're gonna put into making this
Speaker 1: work and doing the work that's required in our work together. Amazing.
Speaker 1: So where can people find you online? What's your website
Speaker 1: as well as any social media handles that you want
Speaker 1: to share. Okay, so you can visit my practice website
Speaker 1: www dot a new level dot org, so like a
Speaker 1: new pair of shoes, but a new level Dot org.
Speaker 1: And so my practice name is a New Level Empowerment
Speaker 1: and Consultation and you'll see me listed on that website.
Speaker 1: You can follow me on Instagram at I am Dr
Speaker 1: Tenisha SAP and my last name is spelled A S
Speaker 1: A p p Sarah Apple, Paul Paul and then you
Speaker 1: can follow me on Instagram, Twitter and do. I don't
Speaker 1: have a public Facebook page for clients, but we do
Speaker 1: have one for the practice, which is a New Level LLC.
Speaker 1: That's the handle for Facebook, so people can follow follow
Speaker 1: that and I do have a Pinterest board for couples
Speaker 1: as well, and I think that's Tenisia sapp as well.
Speaker 1: Basically that following pieces Twitter, Instagram and Interest, and then
Speaker 1: the practice is listed on Facebook. But the best the
Speaker 1: biggest places to interact and engage, and then anybody looking
Speaker 1: to learn more or get more connected with me can
Speaker 1: go to our website and schedule time to meet with me.
Speaker 1: Absolutely sounds good. Well, thank you so much for sharing
Speaker 1: your expertise with us today. I really appreciate it. Thank you,
Speaker 1: thank you for having me. Absolutely, I'm so thankful Dr
Speaker 1: Sap was able to share her expertise with us today.
Speaker 1: To check out the resources she shared and to learn
Speaker 1: more about her practice, visit the show notes at Therapy
Speaker 1: for Black Girls dot com slash Session seventy three, and
Speaker 1: please be sure to share this episode with two people
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Speaker 1: sure to visit the therapist directory at Therapy for Black
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Speaker 1: Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash Tribe.
Speaker 1: Make sure you answer the three questions that are asked
Speaker 1: to gain entry. Thank y'all so much for joining me
Speaker 1: again this week, and I look forward to continuing this
Speaker 1: conversation with you all real soon. Take good care. I
Speaker 1: doctor often ill oftor p ofctor