Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for a Black Girls Podcasts, a
Speaker 1: weekly conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the
Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible
Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information,
Speaker 1: visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls dot com.
Speaker 1: And while I hope you love listening to and learning
Speaker 1: from the podcast, it is not meant to be a
Speaker 1: substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining me for session seventies six
Speaker 1: of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today's episode focuses
Speaker 1: on what life can look like during pregnancy, birth, and
Speaker 1: in the postpartum period. For this conversation, I was joined
Speaker 1: by Dr Christie Christopher Holloway. Dr Christopher Holloway is an
Speaker 1: adjunct professor and the founder and director of New Vision
Speaker 1: Counseling Center, a group private practice in Douglasville, Georgia that
Speaker 1: offers affordable outpatient mental health counseling. She is a licensed
Speaker 1: professional counselor in Georgia, a National Certified counselor, a distance
Speaker 1: credential counselor and an approved clinical supervisor. She earned her
Speaker 1: Bachelor of Science degree in psychology from Louisiana State University, Shreveport,
Speaker 1: her Master of Science degree from Georgia State University, and
Speaker 1: her doctoral degree in counselor, education and Supervision from Argosy University, Atlanta.
Speaker 1: Her research focused on the mental health help seeking experiences
Speaker 1: of religious or spiritual African American women diagnosed with infertility,
Speaker 1: as well as the psycho emotional impact of infertility. Her
Speaker 1: current clinical focus involves working with minority women experiencing infertility
Speaker 1: and birth trauma, perinatal mood and anxiety disorders, and pregnancy
Speaker 1: and infant laws. She has worked in settings that include
Speaker 1: private practice, in home, out patient and residential treatment. Dr
Speaker 1: Christopher Holloway and I discussed the growing research around Black
Speaker 1: women's experiences giving birth, how the process of giving birth
Speaker 1: can be traumatic, postpartum depression, and how it's different from
Speaker 1: the baby blues, how we can be strong advocates for
Speaker 1: ourselves in medical settings, and of course, she shared her
Speaker 1: favorite resources. Please remember to share your highlights from the
Speaker 1: episode with us on social media using the hashtag TBG
Speaker 1: in Session. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us today, Dr Christopher Holloway, thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: I'm to be here. Yeah, I'm really excited we were
Speaker 1: able to kind of arrange the time to chat because,
Speaker 1: you know, there has been so much more conversation just
Speaker 1: about the experiences of black women getting pregnant, having babies,
Speaker 1: you know, the whole issues related to the maternal death rate,
Speaker 1: um related to black moms. So it definitely feels like
Speaker 1: a conversation I want to make sure that we're continuing
Speaker 1: to have and I know that this is a specialty
Speaker 1: for you. Yes, absolutely, yeah, So can you start off
Speaker 1: by talking a little bit about like your perception of
Speaker 1: like everything that's being shared in the news and like
Speaker 1: and I'm sure you may have been seeing this in
Speaker 1: your practice even before it became a news item, right right, absolutely,
Speaker 1: So I think as I kind of look at it,
Speaker 1: I pay attention to it, especially with the maternal mortality
Speaker 1: rates and things like that that's going gone. Part of
Speaker 1: me gets, you know, a little frustrated, like, gosh, wise
Speaker 1: is still happening? Why does this disparity still exists? What
Speaker 1: are we doing about it? Can we do about it?
Speaker 1: But then the other part of me feel somewhat happy
Speaker 1: that it is being shared and that it is being
Speaker 1: talked about, and that you know, light is being shipped
Speaker 1: on it, and that it's not a matter that's just
Speaker 1: consistently still being swept under the rug. So I feel
Speaker 1: torn sometimes in the issue, But you know, I guess
Speaker 1: if we have to look at it in those terms,
Speaker 1: just being excited that okay, at least now, maybe this
Speaker 1: is not something that people can keep acting like doesn't
Speaker 1: exist or that can be ignored. Yeah, and I'm hoping,
Speaker 1: you know that we will also see you know, like
Speaker 1: some kind of task force that that hasn't already started
Speaker 1: to talk about, you know, both what practitioners could be
Speaker 1: doing more, but also how maybe we can become better
Speaker 1: advocates for ourselves. And I know that you do a
Speaker 1: lot of that with your clients, like helping them to
Speaker 1: really become advocates for their own like health and stuff.
Speaker 1: Absolutely definitely teaching them that their voice is super important.
Speaker 1: They don't advocate for themselves or or know that it's
Speaker 1: okay to speak up that, you know, sometimes they may
Speaker 1: be in a setting where they may feel intimidated or
Speaker 1: feel like they can't speak up. And so letting them
Speaker 1: know that it's okay and that they deserve that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think a part of what has scared me
Speaker 1: to you know, just with the recent conversations. You know,
Speaker 1: we've heard about Serena Tiamari, Beyonce even has shared, you know,
Speaker 1: like the difficulties related to pregnancy, and you think about,
Speaker 1: like with people with this level of resources still having
Speaker 1: to do so much advocating and saying no, this is
Speaker 1: you know what I think is going on. You need
Speaker 1: to check me for this. And it does worry me that,
Speaker 1: you know, like, Okay, if this is happening to people
Speaker 1: with this level of resources, what might be happening to
Speaker 1: people that don't have this level of resource? Absolutely, you
Speaker 1: know the research that shows that that's like minority when
Speaker 1: do experience higher rates of maternal mortality. And so not
Speaker 1: having those resources, are not knowing what to look for
Speaker 1: or not being heard a lot of time things situations
Speaker 1: or things that may arise may be kind of shunned
Speaker 1: all for second guests, and maybe we're thinking, oh, maybe
Speaker 1: this is just this is just the part of being
Speaker 1: a new mom, and so it's not really looking to
Speaker 1: they're not like educated on some of the signs and symptoms,
Speaker 1: and so, like you're saying, for someone that has such
Speaker 1: a huge platform or has access to these resources to
Speaker 1: still feel that kind of way, it definitely does make
Speaker 1: you think about what may be happening to those people
Speaker 1: that may not have that access, for who may be
Speaker 1: in a lower socio economic status situation, and what it
Speaker 1: is that they're experiencing. So a lot that has come
Speaker 1: out of the research that's being conducted related to UM,
Speaker 1: like the maternal death rates UM for black women, is
Speaker 1: talking about like this whole weathering effect, right that black
Speaker 1: women have, just like the cumulative stress related to being
Speaker 1: a black woman in the world. How that may be
Speaker 1: something that is like contributing to the death rates. And
Speaker 1: so working with a lot of moms or you know,
Speaker 1: soon to be moms, how do you in your work
Speaker 1: help them to kind of manage some of the stressors
Speaker 1: of just being a black woman in the country. So
Speaker 1: one of the things that I do is we talk
Speaker 1: about it, like I give them permission in our sessions
Speaker 1: to really talk about what that looks like for them,
Speaker 1: talk about what it means to be a woman, a
Speaker 1: black woman, and then now a black woman that's about
Speaker 1: to be a mom, so giving them that permission to
Speaker 1: really just talk about all of the day to day
Speaker 1: things that they do and those stressors, and then from
Speaker 1: there as we kind of get through that and talk
Speaker 1: about it and they can get it off their chest,
Speaker 1: because a lot of times we're told to like hold
Speaker 1: it in, or it doesn't matter, or we you know,
Speaker 1: we shouldn't complain. It's it's seen as complaining as opposed
Speaker 1: to talking and getting that support and that help, or
Speaker 1: sometimes unfortunately they may not have the type of support
Speaker 1: system that they require or that they really need or deserve.
Speaker 1: So we get all of that out and then from there,
Speaker 1: what I really do is educate my mom's on what
Speaker 1: it may look like, what some eternal mental health issues
Speaker 1: may look like, how it may present, what they should
Speaker 1: be on the lookout for, and just really kind of
Speaker 1: letting them know how it may take shape or how
Speaker 1: it may take form, and when they need to seek
Speaker 1: out extra support. If I'm fortunate enough to have their partner,
Speaker 1: I'll also educate the partner on this too, because sometimes
Speaker 1: we may not see it, We may be so busy
Speaker 1: in the hustle of bustle of doing all these other
Speaker 1: things that we may miss it, and so I'll try
Speaker 1: to educate the partner or family member or friend or
Speaker 1: someone like that on what to be on the lookout
Speaker 1: for as well. So can you share some of those
Speaker 1: things with us after as Holloway, I mean, I know,
Speaker 1: one of the big ones that everybody often hears about
Speaker 1: is postpartum depression. Um, so can you tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit about like what signs we need to be
Speaker 1: looking out for there? So first all I tell people
Speaker 1: is you know, we're you're you're right. We do hear
Speaker 1: about postpartum depression, but a lot of times what it's
Speaker 1: left out is postpartum anxiety, postpartum psychosis, postpartum o c V.
Speaker 1: So a lot of those are left out, And so
Speaker 1: now women aren't sure what's going on because they've never
Speaker 1: been educated about it or told about it, or that
Speaker 1: it even exists. So now they're experiencing this maybe and
Speaker 1: they don't know what it is, or they're writing it
Speaker 1: off or they're thinking it's normal. So postpartum depression, though,
Speaker 1: is what is beyond just the baby blues. So a
Speaker 1: lot of times you'll hear someone talk about having the
Speaker 1: baby blues and what that is. It lasts about two
Speaker 1: weeks post birth, and that's kind of the sadness and
Speaker 1: things like that, maybe some crime. That's when we're having
Speaker 1: that huge hormonal shift and so our hormones are all
Speaker 1: over the place and we're adjusting to being a new mom,
Speaker 1: adjusting to this great bundle of joy that you may have.
Speaker 1: And I'm speaking in terms of those who are able
Speaker 1: or fortunate enough to bring those babies home, because I
Speaker 1: do also work with pregnancy and infant loss, which is
Speaker 1: a whole another thing when it comes to postpartum. Postpartum
Speaker 1: depression is beyond the baby blue. So this is looking
Speaker 1: more like, Okay, am I losing interests? Am I not
Speaker 1: connecting with the baby? Am I not eating? Am I
Speaker 1: getting sleep but not getting rested? You know, like, am
Speaker 1: I having a hard time with getting sleep? Am I
Speaker 1: not refreshed? And that's hard sometimes because who is refreshed
Speaker 1: when you have, you know, a new baby and you're
Speaker 1: up throughout the night and things like that. So postpartum
Speaker 1: depression goes way beyond just that baby blue. Sometimes what
Speaker 1: starts happening is the mom may start experiencing the suicidal thoughts,
Speaker 1: maybe not active, but just thinking, gosh, I'm not a
Speaker 1: good mom and maybe uh, you know, the place would
Speaker 1: be better off without me, or this baby would be
Speaker 1: better off without me, or don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: So I kind of educate the moms on that and
Speaker 1: what that may look like for them, especially if they've
Speaker 1: already had this prevalence of the Russian prior to conceiving,
Speaker 1: because sometimes that can increase the risk of experiencing postpartum depression.
Speaker 1: So I try to educate them and let them know
Speaker 1: that this is beyond that in this moment. This is
Speaker 1: like I'm continuously sad, I'm continuously crying, I'm continuously having
Speaker 1: thoughts that may not be healthy thoughts or that may
Speaker 1: be very maladaptive thoughts or even scary thoughts to them,
Speaker 1: And so they get afraid to even talk about it,
Speaker 1: because then the next thing that happens is they're afraid
Speaker 1: that someone's gonna come take the baby away or you know,
Speaker 1: to remove them from the baby, And so then there's
Speaker 1: this hard time with like talking about what's going on
Speaker 1: as opposed to just sitting there and kind of grunting
Speaker 1: and dealing with it. Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned that,
Speaker 1: because I don't think we hear enough about like the
Speaker 1: postpartum psychases, like all of these different things that can
Speaker 1: happen after the birth of a baby. And I feel
Speaker 1: like there is so much going on that you often
Speaker 1: don't know, right, Like even if you're somebody who's strained
Speaker 1: to know the symptoms, Like there's just so much going
Speaker 1: on hormonally with your sleep, just like just a whole
Speaker 1: host of things that can kind of be contributing to
Speaker 1: you having some issues. It's important, you know, to be
Speaker 1: able to talk about that and to understand what that
Speaker 1: looks like, what that may mean, and then what the
Speaker 1: mom needs to do to get that suppport if she
Speaker 1: is experiencing some of that. So what I typically do
Speaker 1: is when I have new moms and they're expecting, we
Speaker 1: go over all this. I give them like a little
Speaker 1: checklist or what it looks like for them and to
Speaker 1: them for their normal, right because everyone's is different, and
Speaker 1: then some things look for and so after the baby
Speaker 1: is born, I'm constantly checking in with them because postpartum
Speaker 1: can also present up to about a year or two
Speaker 1: after birth. So usually we've been told, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: six weeks, that's not postpartum, and it is. It can
Speaker 1: be um. So I let them know that if it's
Speaker 1: five months down the line and now you're experiencing some
Speaker 1: things that seem out of the norm for you, like,
Speaker 1: let's talk about it, because this may be what's going on,
Speaker 1: got it? So I bet that checklist is handy, especially
Speaker 1: like you said, for like partners or other supportive friends
Speaker 1: and family members who can maybe helped to kind of
Speaker 1: keep an eye on some of those symptoms. Absolutely, absolutely so,
Speaker 1: Dr Christopher Halloween. Can you talk more about the anxiety pies? Sure?
Speaker 1: And this is why it's so hard sometimes for new
Speaker 1: moms and new parents, because again, a lot of it
Speaker 1: seems extremely normal, like, yes, you're anxious you have this
Speaker 1: new baby. Yes you're standing over the crib and making
Speaker 1: sure they're breathing right. Yes, you may be nervous. Am
Speaker 1: I you know breastfeeding correctly? Am I doing the formula correctly?
Speaker 1: That I checked their diaper, that I change it? So
Speaker 1: a lot of times, the anxiety that comes with being
Speaker 1: a new mom that it looks like post artem could
Speaker 1: be a lot of increased agitation, a lot of extreme
Speaker 1: like panic and heart racing, being super alert, constant wordy,
Speaker 1: constant racing thoughts, there may be heart palpitations or feeling
Speaker 1: like your heart skipping a beat, may have trouble breathing,
Speaker 1: and so then you're having like these really extreme moments.
Speaker 1: Are these extreme episodes sometimes of anxiety and panic, and
Speaker 1: so it's beyond like, Okay, let me go and check
Speaker 1: and make sure my baby is breathing. Because if you've
Speaker 1: had a baby, for instance, that may have been born
Speaker 1: a little earlier, needed some time and the need you,
Speaker 1: I think it's very normal as you're adjusting to make
Speaker 1: sure they're okay. So this is going beyond that. This
Speaker 1: is I'm worrying all the time. I'm not sleeping, I
Speaker 1: can't control my thoughts, I can't catch my breath. It
Speaker 1: feels like I'm having a heart attack, I'm constantly sweating.
Speaker 1: Like those are some of the symptoms that may present
Speaker 1: when someone is experiencing some postpartum anxiety. So what kinds
Speaker 1: of things might you do with the client to help
Speaker 1: them to manage some of this anxiety? Definitely, so one
Speaker 1: way identify it. And so one of the things that
Speaker 1: I do, I'm more of a cognitive behavioral type therapist
Speaker 1: than what that basically is, is I help clients to
Speaker 1: understand how their thoughts, their feelings, and their actions or
Speaker 1: behaviors are all connected. And so one of the things
Speaker 1: that I'll do is to have them stop and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: this fear or this worry or this concern that I'm
Speaker 1: having right now, is it rational? Because it may be
Speaker 1: extremely rational? Um, And then I'll have them ask and
Speaker 1: basically say, okay, is there anything that I can do
Speaker 1: about it? And if there is something they can do
Speaker 1: about it, then figuring out like how they need to
Speaker 1: implement that to do something about it. If it's an
Speaker 1: irrational fear and irrational thought, I'll have them say okay, now,
Speaker 1: what then do I need to do to help myself?
Speaker 1: So to speak quiet this fear or quiet this thought.
Speaker 1: So that may mean I can journal, I to talk
Speaker 1: to my partner, I can take a nap because a
Speaker 1: lot of times is due to exhaustion and just being
Speaker 1: completely tired. I can go and hold the baby if
Speaker 1: I'm concerned that I'm not breastfeeding correctly or my baby
Speaker 1: is constantly crying and I starving them. And so then
Speaker 1: I'll give them facts on breastfeeding and how breastfed babies
Speaker 1: respond and react and how the mom responds and reacts.
Speaker 1: So again I'll use a lot of CBT or cognitive
Speaker 1: behavior of therapy to help them identify their thoughts, to
Speaker 1: help them understand how it's affecting their feelings and emotions,
Speaker 1: and then to help them understand how it's affecting their
Speaker 1: actions or their behaviors, and then basically having them understand.
Speaker 1: I call it like detective work. And so if you
Speaker 1: watch a lot of I was Huge online order and right,
Speaker 1: you know, you get caught up. You know. So typically though,
Speaker 1: you know, they have to find this preponderance of evidence,
Speaker 1: right like, they have to find enough evidence to either
Speaker 1: convict someone or to take it to trial or press
Speaker 1: charges whatever that is. And so if it's not enough evidence,
Speaker 1: sometimes they can't move forward. They have to drop the
Speaker 1: charges or reduce the charges. And so I tell my clients,
Speaker 1: I want you to be a detective. I want you
Speaker 1: to get a preponderance of evidence that this right here
Speaker 1: that you're experience again thinking is a fact. If you
Speaker 1: can't find any evidence, then this lets us know that
Speaker 1: this fear we can kind of start working through moving
Speaker 1: forward from like it's not gonna happen, but you may
Speaker 1: have some evidence because again maybe your baby did have
Speaker 1: some trouble and nick you, or you have had some
Speaker 1: trouble during birth, or you experience loss before infertility before
Speaker 1: something like that. So then we'll say, Okay, how can
Speaker 1: we help or how can I help you? Or how
Speaker 1: can your partner help you? As it relates to having
Speaker 1: more adaptive thinking or thinking that will be more healthy
Speaker 1: for you, so that you can connect to this baby
Speaker 1: and you can attach and that you can you know,
Speaker 1: be the mom that you were hoping that you would be.
Speaker 1: So you brought up another thing that I think we
Speaker 1: should touch on Dr Christopher halloway Um related to breastfeeding,
Speaker 1: because I do know that oftentimes, like the relationship that
Speaker 1: you have as the mom with breastfeeding can bring up
Speaker 1: a lot like if you're doing it right or if
Speaker 1: for some reason you can't do it but you really
Speaker 1: wanted to, then does that bring up, you know, some
Speaker 1: feelings of regret or sadness or guilt for you. Can
Speaker 1: you talk a little bit about how breastfeeding kind of
Speaker 1: as another layer to this whole puzzle. Absolutely so, and
Speaker 1: then that even goes in with education. So breastfeeding can
Speaker 1: do one of two things. It can really promote this
Speaker 1: attachment and help the mom because now she's feeling like
Speaker 1: I'm doing something right. You know, I'm connecting I'm feeding
Speaker 1: my baby. I may be depressed, I may be sad,
Speaker 1: I may be anxious. I may not know anything else,
Speaker 1: but I oh that I can lash this baby to
Speaker 1: my breast and nourish it and give it everything that
Speaker 1: it needs. On the flip side of that, you may
Speaker 1: have someone who has not been properly educated about breastfeeding.
Speaker 1: And so when I say that, what I mean by
Speaker 1: that is maybe they don't understand how their milk comes
Speaker 1: in the process of lactation. They think maybe as soon
Speaker 1: as I give birth, my milk should be flowing and
Speaker 1: you know, just running endlessly, and so they're not educated
Speaker 1: on that. They're not educated on latching the baby or
Speaker 1: how breastfed babies may feed more off and then babies
Speaker 1: that are given formula. And so now it's creating again anxiety.
Speaker 1: It's creating I'm felling my baby. My baby is starving
Speaker 1: because it's crying, or it's hurting me to breastfeed because
Speaker 1: maybe they haven't been, you know, shown how to appropriately
Speaker 1: latch the baby, and so they give up or they
Speaker 1: decide to you know, not pursue it or it's too much,
Speaker 1: And so that can bring on some depression and anxiety
Speaker 1: because as this may be something that they had this
Speaker 1: expectation of and that they really really wanted to do
Speaker 1: and to fulfill, but because now they feel like it's
Speaker 1: not working or they're not successful, or maybe they are successful,
Speaker 1: they're just not understanding what it looks like. And so
Speaker 1: this can also increase because now again all of these
Speaker 1: expectations that I may have had when it comes to
Speaker 1: breastfeeding my baby is not happening. I'm not nourishing my child.
Speaker 1: I'm not giving my child what they need for. Sometimes
Speaker 1: society does this mom shaming, and you'll have folks that
Speaker 1: are just saying, you know, breast is best. You'll have
Speaker 1: other folks safe formula, and then you'll have some people
Speaker 1: in the middle that may safe fed is best and
Speaker 1: as long as you're feeding your baby and you're giving
Speaker 1: it what it means. So sometimes the mom can get
Speaker 1: a little discouraged thinking that she's spelling this baby or
Speaker 1: letting this baby down, and in turn letting herself down
Speaker 1: and not meeting all of those expectations that she had
Speaker 1: set up. As it relates to how she wanted to
Speaker 1: nourish this baby. And so again I talked with moms
Speaker 1: about this. I am not a lactation consultant, but I
Speaker 1: am an advocate, and so I'll talk to mom's about
Speaker 1: that and then also put them in touch with a
Speaker 1: lactation consultant or knowing what to request if they're having
Speaker 1: a hospital birth, knowing what to request so that they
Speaker 1: can get the education before leaving. And then also maybe
Speaker 1: some different Facebook support groups or Instagram followings that they
Speaker 1: can do that can kind of help educate and keep
Speaker 1: them motivated as they are trying with their breast feeding journey. So,
Speaker 1: Dr chrisiper Holloway, you mentioned this whole idea of expectations,
Speaker 1: and I do think, especially as a first time mom,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of expectations about like what everything
Speaker 1: is going to be like, and so I know, I know.
Speaker 1: Another thing that you really work with women on in
Speaker 1: your practice is related to birth traumas and maybe not
Speaker 1: having the birth outcomes that they wanted. Can you talk
Speaker 1: a little bit more about that part of your work. Absolutely, so, yes,
Speaker 1: I do deal with or work with women experienced birth trauma,
Speaker 1: and so one of the things that I always say
Speaker 1: is trauma is in the eye of the beholder. It
Speaker 1: is not on mean to tell someone that they weren't
Speaker 1: you know what, the experience was not traumatizing. But birth
Speaker 1: trauma can look like perhaps you were wanting to have
Speaker 1: a natural vaginal birth and you now had to be
Speaker 1: maybe at a hospital or with a doctor or somewhere
Speaker 1: that I didn't understand your birth plan or wasn't aware
Speaker 1: of your birth plan. Um it can look like you
Speaker 1: have been preparing this entire time for a vaginal birth,
Speaker 1: and because babies do it, they do maybe it flips,
Speaker 1: or it turns, or you know, maybe there's heart rate
Speaker 1: acceleration or something that's putting you in the baby at risk.
Speaker 1: And so now you're having the csarian section that you
Speaker 1: were not prepared for. It's an emergency csian, so you
Speaker 1: know the things that go along with that. Maybe you know,
Speaker 1: I've I've watched a video where a doctor was saying,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm just gonna yank baby out of you.
Speaker 1: And so that's traumatic because you are at the most
Speaker 1: vulnerable state. Your legs are up, you know, your who
Speaker 1: has out, and it's a lot going on, and so
Speaker 1: you don't know what to do, so that was very
Speaker 1: traumatizing or that mom. And so I work with moms
Speaker 1: and helping them kind of understand that, Okay, this may
Speaker 1: be your birth plan, but these are some things that
Speaker 1: may come up that we may need to deal with.
Speaker 1: And sometimes I don't get that opportunity to do that
Speaker 1: because maybe I've gotten a mom who's come in now
Speaker 1: because of birth trauma, and so it can look like
Speaker 1: I had the healthy pregnancy all of a sudden, my
Speaker 1: water broke at thirty weeks and I had no idea,
Speaker 1: they couldn't stop anything, and now I have this two
Speaker 1: pound baby that I was not prepared for, and I'm struggling.
Speaker 1: I'm afraid, and I don't know how to connect to
Speaker 1: this child. Um, I don't know what to do. Am
Speaker 1: I gonna be a good mom with maybe a Nike baby?
Speaker 1: Do I know how to handle them? Are they gonna
Speaker 1: be say if in the car seat? And so I
Speaker 1: work with moms to kind of help them with that
Speaker 1: and what that experience may look like. And then you know,
Speaker 1: if any post traumatic stress develops from that, even working
Speaker 1: through the trauma of this unplanned earth that they weren't expecting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it definitely feels like, you know, there's just so much
Speaker 1: that's out of your control, right, Like you can be
Speaker 1: planning for whatever it is you think you want the
Speaker 1: birth to be, and then you just don't know, like
Speaker 1: you said, because the babies do what they do and
Speaker 1: it's just kind of all unexpected. Yes, yes, And so
Speaker 1: for some women it's not traumatizing. They just say, okay,
Speaker 1: you know, as long as my baby is here and healthy.
Speaker 1: And for others, because sometimes of those expectations or prior experiences,
Speaker 1: like I said, maybe loss or things like that, it
Speaker 1: can be very traumatizing for them, and it you know,
Speaker 1: it just has to be worked through, right, right. So,
Speaker 1: I know another thing that will often come up and
Speaker 1: I know that neither us as psychiatrist, so we're not
Speaker 1: gonna dive too deep into medication stuff, but it does
Speaker 1: often come up that you know, clients may need to
Speaker 1: start medication um either maybe towards the end of a
Speaker 1: pregnancy or soon after a pregnancy to help them manage
Speaker 1: some of the symptoms related to like postpartum depression or anxiety.
Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about like maybe some
Speaker 1: general things clients have kind of commented about after you know,
Speaker 1: starting medication or the discomfort of maybe wanting to start medication. Yes, definitely,
Speaker 1: and so you're right. Sometimes it is needed because maybe
Speaker 1: the depression or the anxiety or whatever, you know, mood
Speaker 1: disorder is happening. It may be so intense that it's
Speaker 1: difficult for us to get far in treatment because how
Speaker 1: deep it's running. And so sometimes medication is suggested and recommended.
Speaker 1: And sometimes there may be apprehension because maybe this person
Speaker 1: has had a completely natural lifestyle or natural earth, or
Speaker 1: is not really into medications and psychotropic medications as they say,
Speaker 1: our mind altering or brain altering rather medicines. And so
Speaker 1: what I have to do is talk with them about
Speaker 1: at this point the risk and the benefit to take
Speaker 1: in it, and just reminding them that this may not
Speaker 1: be something that's long term. It's just to help, you know,
Speaker 1: help you get through this hump, get over this hump.
Speaker 1: Sometimes there's apprehension about taking the medication because they are
Speaker 1: breastfeeding and they don't want it to be transferred to
Speaker 1: the baby. And so there are medications that are acceptable
Speaker 1: or that are okay when it comes to breastfeeding, and
Speaker 1: of course there are some that are not, and so
Speaker 1: I encourage the mom to definitely talk with the psychiatrists
Speaker 1: as well as there, you know, if they had an
Speaker 1: obie or their midwife or nurse practitioner in conjunction with me,
Speaker 1: so that we can figure out maybe the best treatment,
Speaker 1: the best medicine, and then maybe putting hopefully some type
Speaker 1: of guide or expectations or just the plan in place
Speaker 1: on maybe how long this may be needed, with the
Speaker 1: understanding that maybe it may need to be needed a
Speaker 1: little longer, or maybe you know, as if we start
Speaker 1: seeing that progress and their coping skills or back to
Speaker 1: where it needs to be in their support system is
Speaker 1: there and they're talking and they're attending therapy, that it
Speaker 1: may not be as long. But when it comes to
Speaker 1: situations where if mom does not get on some medication
Speaker 1: that is going to be harmful to her, the baby,
Speaker 1: or you know, anyone in the family, then it's kind
Speaker 1: of almost like, look, the benefits of you getting on
Speaker 1: right now will greatly outweigh the risk of you not
Speaker 1: being on. Yeah, And that is often like difficult conversations
Speaker 1: to have, you know, for for a lot of the
Speaker 1: reasons that you just named right right, So, what are
Speaker 1: some of the other things that you do Dr Christopher
Speaker 1: Holloway with moms um, you know, just kind of working
Speaker 1: through this whole period of you know, like welcoming a baby,
Speaker 1: a new baby or you know, a sibling now into
Speaker 1: the family, to kind of help them to you know,
Speaker 1: make sure they're taking care of their mental health right.
Speaker 1: So in addition to educating them on and so I
Speaker 1: used the term you know normal because it's very relative
Speaker 1: to the person. In addition to educating them on their
Speaker 1: normal and what things look like for them, we talk
Speaker 1: about putting a support system in place. Sometimes the internet
Speaker 1: can be great and other times it can be very devastating,
Speaker 1: So we talk about what that may look like for them.
Speaker 1: And so their support system may include certain groups or
Speaker 1: you know, certain websites, and sometimes it may not. We
Speaker 1: may have to completely except. But we talk about how
Speaker 1: your friends and family can support because sometimes you know,
Speaker 1: as new moms, we want to figure it all out.
Speaker 1: We want to do it. Always say well, no manual
Speaker 1: comes and you know, this is my baby, let me
Speaker 1: do this and figure it out. So being able to
Speaker 1: say how can you reach out for that support? What
Speaker 1: are some things that we can put in place so
Speaker 1: your family knows that maybe you need some support if
Speaker 1: they have access to it. I recommend adula um that
Speaker 1: can kind of beat a postpartum doulah who can be
Speaker 1: there um after birth and helping them and helping around
Speaker 1: the house and making sure mom is eating, because unfortunately
Speaker 1: in America, in our country, sometimes we don't get afforded
Speaker 1: six eight, you know, twelve plus weeks of maternity leave,
Speaker 1: and then the father may not get paternity leave. You know,
Speaker 1: you may not have a mom or a sister or
Speaker 1: a sibling or someone that can be around to help you.
Speaker 1: And so sometimes having adula there to help and make
Speaker 1: sure that mom is eating, helping hold the baby so
Speaker 1: mom can take a quick shower or a quick nap
Speaker 1: is extremely beneficial. And if they don't have access to that.
Speaker 1: Been talking about how can your partners support you? How
Speaker 1: can free and support you? What are some code words
Speaker 1: that we can put in place so people will know
Speaker 1: that you need help. I encourage my clients to give
Speaker 1: themselves permission, and that permission may look like whatever it
Speaker 1: is that you need permission for in that moment, So
Speaker 1: giving yourself permission to breathe, maybe the type of birth
Speaker 1: that you thought you were going to have, or given
Speaker 1: yourself permission to breast feed uncovered without a care in
Speaker 1: the world, you know, or given yourself permission to take
Speaker 1: a nap, given yourself permission to co sleep if that's
Speaker 1: what you do, given yourself permission to have the type
Speaker 1: of birth that you want. So if that's a natural birth,
Speaker 1: that's a home birth, if that's a birth and a
Speaker 1: birthing censer, if that's a hospital birth, if that's a
Speaker 1: medicative birth, just whatever permission that's needed, because that's very
Speaker 1: free for a lot of people. And so I try
Speaker 1: to do a lot of work with that and putting
Speaker 1: that plan in place so that way when it comes
Speaker 1: to the nitty gritty and baby is here and it
Speaker 1: seems like the whole world been flipped upside down, but
Speaker 1: they all have this and they can refer back to
Speaker 1: it and say, Okay, this is what I need or
Speaker 1: I don't have to portray being the strong, got it
Speaker 1: all together mom in this instance, I can say no,
Speaker 1: I need help with this, or can you do that?
Speaker 1: And so if mom is breastfeeding, maybe the partner can
Speaker 1: change the diapers or changed clothing, so that way you
Speaker 1: know they're both having um this time with this baby
Speaker 1: and bonding with the baby mom not feeling like everything
Speaker 1: is on her. So that's some of the stuff that
Speaker 1: I try to do. And again, if they don't have
Speaker 1: a huge support system and maybe there's not a partner there,
Speaker 1: maybe they've chosen to be a single parent, just still
Speaker 1: talking about what that may look like for them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: those are all sounds like some really great tips, you know,
Speaker 1: for anybody who is in the throws of this process.
Speaker 1: Are preparing for this process absolutely, because you don't know really,
Speaker 1: you know that. I was telling someone other day that
Speaker 1: and I had all the what to Expect when expecting books.
Speaker 1: I had every last one of them. I even saw
Speaker 1: one of what to expect when you have a teenager.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, you can read
Speaker 1: those and have those and it can give you some
Speaker 1: common knowledge, but nothing's going to prepare you until you
Speaker 1: were here in the throes of it and dealing with
Speaker 1: it right right. So what are some of your favorite resources,
Speaker 1: act Christopher Holloway. Some of the things you find yourself
Speaker 1: recommending to your clients pretty frequently. Yes, So when it
Speaker 1: comes to just what's going on with you know, the
Speaker 1: baby and what's happening. One of the apps and there's
Speaker 1: also a book, but I I, you know, sometimes we
Speaker 1: don't have time to be reading books. One of the
Speaker 1: apps that I definitely recommended was the Wonder Weeks app
Speaker 1: or the book, but it basically tells you everything that's
Speaker 1: going on with baby up until I think. I think
Speaker 1: it goes up to it may go up to two
Speaker 1: years is old. I know it goes up to a
Speaker 1: year old, but it talks about developmental leaps that the
Speaker 1: baby maybe having or that may be approaching, so to
Speaker 1: help you understand, Okay, why is baby so fusty or
Speaker 1: why is this happening? Why isn't this working? And it
Speaker 1: just worked last week. So I definitely recommend the Wonder
Speaker 1: Weeks app because I think, I know for me having twins,
Speaker 1: it just gave me a whole lot of information that
Speaker 1: I needed and helped me understand like, oh, okay, that's
Speaker 1: what's going on. So I definitely recommend that for moms
Speaker 1: who are just dealing with these expectations that they have
Speaker 1: that have now been slapped with reality. There's a great
Speaker 1: book that I recommend called This Isn't What I Expected.
Speaker 1: Another one is Life Will Never Be the Same, And
Speaker 1: it's just basically talking about postpartum and what that looks like,
Speaker 1: and having just a resource for you know, moms to
Speaker 1: read and understand like I'm not the only one in
Speaker 1: the world that's experienced this. And although they know that,
Speaker 1: sometimes it can feel very isolating, and again we can
Speaker 1: get caught up in our mind and in our thoughts
Speaker 1: and feel like I'm the only one that's dealing with this,
Speaker 1: or you know, why didn't I breastfeed longer sheep breast fit,
Speaker 1: or why didn't I do this? And why didn't I
Speaker 1: baby wearing? Did I mess them up? And am I attaching?
Speaker 1: Am I abundant to this baby? And my horrible mom
Speaker 1: my baby was in the nick you and I wasn't
Speaker 1: able to be there for the first two, three, five,
Speaker 1: ten weeks? You know, did I damage my child? And
Speaker 1: so it just helps with all of that. So those
Speaker 1: are some of the great resources that I recommend. Perfect
Speaker 1: and where can we find you online? Your website as
Speaker 1: well as any social media handles you'd like to share.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so. The website site is www dot New Vision
Speaker 1: Counseling Center dot com and on Facebook you can find
Speaker 1: um the company as well on at New Vision Counseling
Speaker 1: Center as ill on Facebook. You scent, yes, ma'am okay perfect,
Speaker 1: and all of that information will be included in the
Speaker 1: show notes so people can find you easily. Awesome, perfect Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing with us today, Dr
Speaker 1: Christopher Holloway. I really appreciate it. Thank you, thank you
Speaker 1: for having me, and hopefully this has helped some women
Speaker 1: out there and even you know, partners out there who
Speaker 1: may be trying to figure out what's going on and
Speaker 1: help help that new mom in their life. Right absolutely,
Speaker 1: I'm so thankful Dr Christopher Holloway was able to share
Speaker 1: her expertise with us today. To check out the resources
Speaker 1: she shared and to learn more about her practice, visit
Speaker 1: the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com
Speaker 1: slash Session seventies six, and please make sure to share
Speaker 1: your takeaways from this episode in your I G stories
Speaker 1: are on Twitter. Be sure to use the hashtag tb
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Speaker 1: be sure to visit the therapist director at Therapy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash directory, and don't forget to
Speaker 1: check out the Therapy for Black Girls store to grab
Speaker 1: yourself a T shirt or a mug to show your
Speaker 1: love for the podcast. You can shop at Therapy for
Speaker 1: Black Girls dot com slash shop. And if you want
Speaker 1: to continue this conversation and join a community of other
Speaker 1: sisters who listen to the podcast, join us over in
Speaker 1: the Thrive tribe at Therapy for Black Girls dot com
Speaker 1: slash Tribe. Make sure you answer the three questions that
Speaker 1: are asked to gain entry. Thank y'all so much for
Speaker 1: joining me again this week, and I look forward to
Speaker 1: continue in this conversation with you all real soon. Take
Speaker 1: good care actor Actor