Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls podcast, where we
Speaker 1: discussed all things mental health, personal development, and all the
Speaker 1: small decisions we can make to become the best possible
Speaker 1: versions of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy Harden Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. To get more information
Speaker 1: and resources, visit the website at Therapy for Black Girls
Speaker 1: dot com. And while I hope you love listening to
Speaker 1: and learning from the podcast, it is not meant to
Speaker 1: be a substitute for a relationship with a licensed mental
Speaker 1: health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so much for joining me
Speaker 1: for Session thirteen of the Therapy for Black Girls podcast. Today,
Speaker 1: in our no co pay Needed segment, I'm joined by
Speaker 1: special guest therapist Ronelle Nelson to talk about recovering after
Speaker 1: an affair. Renelle is a licensed marriage and Family therapist
Speaker 1: and an a sex certified sex therapist. She has been
Speaker 1: providing therapy for over eleven years. Renelle is also a
Speaker 1: certified infidelity Recovery therapist. She's passionate about helping couples get
Speaker 1: through the long term impact of affairs, which includes potential
Speaker 1: divorce and its overall impact on a societal level. As
Speaker 1: a trained infidelity recovery specialist. Her role is to guide
Speaker 1: couples through this painful time through coaching, directing, and education.
Speaker 1: She leads couples through uncertainty and fear to hope and strength.
Speaker 1: Ronelle and I talked a lot about the seven different
Speaker 1: types of affairs. We also discussed the hard work that's
Speaker 1: involved in recovering from affairs, and also why it's important
Speaker 1: to talk about attractions to other people even before an
Speaker 1: affair happens in your relationship. So I definitely hope this
Speaker 1: will be useful if you need it, make sure to
Speaker 1: share your feedback with us on social media using the
Speaker 1: hashtag tv G in Session. So thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us to there now. I'm super excited to
Speaker 1: have you on the podcast, so excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Thank you. So share with us what you do. I
Speaker 1: am licensed marriage and family therapists who specialize and sexual
Speaker 1: issues and infidelity. Okay, so that's really what I wanted
Speaker 1: us to get together to talk about today. UM so,
Speaker 1: can you kind of give us like your working definition
Speaker 1: of infidelity? My work and definition of infidelity is one
Speaker 1: of the partners have sex outside of the union. Okay,
Speaker 1: well that's what um, this work of definition. I know
Speaker 1: it's a lot people talk to me about UM emotional affairs,
Speaker 1: affair that's happened on social media, but UM, for the
Speaker 1: purpose of infidelity that I talk about, I talk about
Speaker 1: sexual relationships outside of the marriage. Okay, So I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: so we'll use that working definition. But I do think
Speaker 1: we may want to kind of touch on what's happening
Speaker 1: with like social media, because I hadn't thought about that,
Speaker 1: but I think that that probably is something that's important
Speaker 1: to discuss. Okay, Okay, all right. So so one of
Speaker 1: the things that I was most curious about and really
Speaker 1: excited to hear about related to your work is, UM,
Speaker 1: what are some of the factors and things that come
Speaker 1: up that will maybe influence one partner to make them
Speaker 1: decide whether they're going to try and work on the
Speaker 1: relationship again or whether they're gonna call it quits after
Speaker 1: an affair. Okay, So we know when anything, it's UM
Speaker 1: individual choice. So what I do is talk to the parties.
Speaker 1: Basically when they come see me, they goin to know
Speaker 1: either they're gonna work on it or this is the
Speaker 1: last go around. One thing what I try to do
Speaker 1: in my position is to not choose who's right or wrong,
Speaker 1: but what's right. So what we do is we go
Speaker 1: through all the processes and my ultimate goal is to
Speaker 1: give them the education they need to make the decision
Speaker 1: if they want to stay, but if they choose to uncouple,
Speaker 1: they have enough information so they can heal successfully. Because
Speaker 1: that's a really big part of it, the whole thing
Speaker 1: about the affair. If we're gonna stay togethering him, but
Speaker 1: if we decide to uncouple, I need to know what
Speaker 1: I need to do to heal also and to move on.
Speaker 1: So that's what I try to do, and that's why
Speaker 1: I always say shine a light on infidelity. So what
Speaker 1: kinds of things need to happen to repair a relationship
Speaker 1: and to begin to heal after an affair. One of
Speaker 1: the major things is communication. Another thing is we have
Speaker 1: to be open, not just communicate because a lot of
Speaker 1: people say, oh, communication, what does that mean? I mean
Speaker 1: honest communication. Um, we need to also discuss about what's
Speaker 1: gonna happen next the infidel. For it to be successful
Speaker 1: has to be an agreement and has to have I
Speaker 1: don't want to say remorseful, but to make it work,
Speaker 1: it has to be some kind of remorse about the situation.
Speaker 1: So that's a lot of the big factors is to
Speaker 1: be remorseful. Okay, So you use the word that I'm
Speaker 1: not sure everybody may be familiar with. So infidel, is
Speaker 1: that the person who actually stepped outside of the marriage. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's I'm sorry, it's the infidel. It's the infidel we
Speaker 1: had the portrayed partner, because it's not really I'm not
Speaker 1: gender biased. And one of the things I wanna let
Speaker 1: everybody know is that women are up there. We're having
Speaker 1: just amount a lot of affairs as men. So it's
Speaker 1: not you to be um me and have more affairs. Well,
Speaker 1: women are kind of catching up, So I don't like
Speaker 1: to be in with same sex marriages and stuff. At
Speaker 1: that part, I already don't like to be gender biased,
Speaker 1: so I usually use infidel or the betrayed partner. It
Speaker 1: can be anybody got you, got you? So do you
Speaker 1: see any differences? Um? If you know, like depending on
Speaker 1: who is the one who has had the affair in
Speaker 1: the relationship, difference is like what like in terms of
Speaker 1: healing or like differences and what the process looks like
Speaker 1: after you know, they're trying to work on the relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when men. It's a pride. It's a pride issue, UM
Speaker 1: where women usually step out of them their pride is
Speaker 1: just shattered because um if they can't understand how you
Speaker 1: could do this, and it was more of um what
Speaker 1: other people are gone to think? You know that you
Speaker 1: did it to me? How can you do this to me?
Speaker 1: Even if it's it's just emotional or social media. They
Speaker 1: just can't get past that. But usually they work through it,
Speaker 1: but they're the one thing is there is been on
Speaker 1: as pride is more of shame UM and more blame.
Speaker 1: Women I see tend to go enter and blame theirself
Speaker 1: and then project a lot of anger because they don't understand.
Speaker 1: Women try to understand a lot more than me. Got you,
Speaker 1: got you okay, okay? So what are your thoughts about this? Um?
Speaker 1: So I've often heard that, UM, in order for the
Speaker 1: relationship to really heal, that the person that who has
Speaker 1: had the affair needs to kind of be open and
Speaker 1: willing to answer any question that the betrayed partner has.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts about like the amount of detail
Speaker 1: that the betrayed partner might actually want to have, because
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times you think you want
Speaker 1: a lot of information UM, and sometimes that can be
Speaker 1: really harmful. So what are your thoughts about that. That's
Speaker 1: a perfect question, and I'm gonna say this, It depends
Speaker 1: on the situation. Everybody is different. One part of my
Speaker 1: seventh that recovery method is the affair story. That is,
Speaker 1: when the infidel tells the betrayed partner UM what happened
Speaker 1: in the affair. The betrayed partner has a right to
Speaker 1: ask honest questions about what happened and the affair, and
Speaker 1: the infidel answered because that stops speculation because one thing
Speaker 1: about affairs, we make affairs glamorous in our head, and
Speaker 1: that's not really what happened. And sometimes the betrayed partner
Speaker 1: is fixated on a story and until they get the
Speaker 1: missing pieces, they can't they just can't move past it.
Speaker 1: So we set up a situation where the infidel can
Speaker 1: tell the betray partner what happened. But like you know,
Speaker 1: it comes with some caution, and that's why it helps
Speaker 1: to have a mediator and in a safe um place,
Speaker 1: because then you have a lot of issues that you
Speaker 1: have to do if I'm violent, you know, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: name cong just getting out of hand. So it comes
Speaker 1: with a lot of caution, but you are right to
Speaker 1: fully heal that the betrayed partner does want to know
Speaker 1: what happened, especially not so much of the sexual acts,
Speaker 1: but just really want to know was it protected? M
Speaker 1: m m okay. And do you see a difference in
Speaker 1: the recovery if it was like a one time kind
Speaker 1: of one nice thing kind of thing versus somebody having
Speaker 1: like a significant relationship with this other person. Yes. So, Um,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can. We got time to
Speaker 1: go onto this. But it's seven types of affairs that Okay,
Speaker 1: So it's seven types of affairs we have the accidental affair, Yes,
Speaker 1: I said accidental. That the accidental affair if you kind
Speaker 1: of think of as an accident, neither one of you
Speaker 1: were preparing for this to happen. Uh. It comes across
Speaker 1: like uh long business meetings, Um, brown trees being crossed.
Speaker 1: That shouldn't have It wasn't It was spontaneous. It wasn't
Speaker 1: playing like we are gonna be together tomorrow. It wasn't playing.
Speaker 1: It just happened. Alcohol is usually involved. Um, so that's
Speaker 1: what we consider accidental affair is not Believe me, I
Speaker 1: wanted everybody know it's not an excuse. We're just saying
Speaker 1: it's an accidental affair. Um. The other affair is an
Speaker 1: intimacy versus conflict avoidance, and those affairs are when uh,
Speaker 1: to avoid something in your marriage, you don't do it
Speaker 1: so you to avoid intimacy. You might not be intimate
Speaker 1: with your partner to avoid the conflict, but then you
Speaker 1: intimate with somebody else because it's less conflict. Then conflict
Speaker 1: avoidance is just saying you're the perfect husband. Yes, no,
Speaker 1: maybe so because you don't want any conflict in your marriage.
Speaker 1: But in the relationship the affair, you have a voice
Speaker 1: because that makes sense. Yeah, okay. And the third one
Speaker 1: is like a philanderer. We know the philanderers. It's just
Speaker 1: that it has nothing. Affairs has nothing to do with
Speaker 1: the um portrayed person. It's just them. They have to
Speaker 1: feel the need for others to need them. Usually these
Speaker 1: are the playboys that they used to call on. These
Speaker 1: are like, I don't even want to put a lot
Speaker 1: of stuff on athletes. These just like our men that
Speaker 1: they love their wife. They don't have anything to do
Speaker 1: with their wives or the women. They love their husband,
Speaker 1: but they just love to have sex with other people.
Speaker 1: It has nothing to do with you know, marriage or viles.
Speaker 1: That's just there's their philanderers. They take care of their wife,
Speaker 1: their husband. They love them, but that's what they do, okay.
Speaker 1: UM entitlement unfair we UM. I don't want to keep
Speaker 1: in that on UM athletes, but this is what we use.
Speaker 1: And when you have a lot of money, a lot
Speaker 1: of status, a lot of cloud, some people think of
Speaker 1: us like people in uniform or high economic like I'm
Speaker 1: still gonna say, I got so many people that I see.
Speaker 1: I'm trying not to generalize, but it's hard because usually
Speaker 1: somebody where UM to society have higher standards for and
Speaker 1: they entitled. I can do all this, I'm entitled to
Speaker 1: have this. We see this play out so much in
Speaker 1: the media. UM. One of the things is that we
Speaker 1: talk about even royalty. I can have this, I'm entitled
Speaker 1: to this. I can have a wife and I can
Speaker 1: have a mistress. You know that's a title man um
Speaker 1: to split self affair is really what it is if
Speaker 1: you just think of it as at home, I'm this way,
Speaker 1: but when I'm with my having affair, I'm another way.
Speaker 1: We look at taking say the housewife who take care
Speaker 1: of her husband don't have a voice. But when she's
Speaker 1: having a fair she liked b ds M, she likes
Speaker 1: to she voiced. She can do this. It's like a
Speaker 1: whole different person. She is okay, or just like the husband,
Speaker 1: because UM, who is really um? Because husband's do get abused,
Speaker 1: don't have a voice at home, don't have a position
Speaker 1: at home, don't have anything going at home. But they
Speaker 1: get an affair where they're the man. They're getting affair.
Speaker 1: They have an affair with somebody. They're the man they
Speaker 1: think the most higher them. UM is just really a
Speaker 1: split self. There are two different people as you hear
Speaker 1: like double lives, um. The six one is the exit
Speaker 1: affair and the exitus affair. And I have some of
Speaker 1: those where the person just wants to get caught, you know,
Speaker 1: they're they're on their way out anyway, they don't care.
Speaker 1: And then but the person the person wants to the
Speaker 1: other betrayed partner want to work it out. The other
Speaker 1: person just wants to you know, it's over. I knew
Speaker 1: you was gonna find out, you know, let's just end it.
Speaker 1: So they just have an affair. So it's kind of
Speaker 1: like UM when people say you got one foot out
Speaker 1: the door. So it's really got one foot out the door.
Speaker 1: So you just have an affair, and that's what is.
Speaker 1: It's on the exodus, on your way out. Um. The
Speaker 1: last one is really the sexual addiction affair. This is
Speaker 1: the affair that getting a lot of information a lot
Speaker 1: of research about. In fact, as you know, if we
Speaker 1: kind of wonder if sex is a can you be
Speaker 1: addicted to sex or is it just an impulse disorder?
Speaker 1: With sexual edition affair is a person who just um,
Speaker 1: is in a marriage, but has sex outside their marriage
Speaker 1: without consent. I'm gonna say, well, I'll consent from their partner.
Speaker 1: It's nothing more than that they just have sex outside
Speaker 1: of their marriage. Okay. And I never knew that there
Speaker 1: were seven different types of affairs. And what those seven
Speaker 1: different types is seven different types of recovery is seven
Speaker 1: different It's a lot of stuff that you can look at,
Speaker 1: and recovery is different from all of them. Mm hmmm okay, Okay.
Speaker 1: So if you if you could guess or maybe like
Speaker 1: just in your practice, is there a type or one
Speaker 1: or two types that you see the most most commonly probably, uh,
Speaker 1: the intimacy avoidance affair. People who don't really feel that
Speaker 1: they can talk to their partner and go outside and
Speaker 1: get what they need. Um, accidental affairs mm hmmmmm. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I would imagine I mean, and this is definitely
Speaker 1: not my area of expertise, but um, I would imagine
Speaker 1: that maybe the accidental affairs are the hardest and maybe
Speaker 1: UM have a recovery from because you know, I think
Speaker 1: with the avoidant ones, you can kind of go back
Speaker 1: and do some work around. Okay, what was missing in
Speaker 1: the marriage and how do we kind of make it stronger.
Speaker 1: But if it was like an accident like this just
Speaker 1: kind of happened, you know, it feels like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: how would you be able to prevent that from happening again?
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you talked about that, because that's what
Speaker 1: if we talk about. That's my goal and my mission
Speaker 1: is to shine a lot on infidelity. We cannot assume monogamy.
Speaker 1: We need to discuss what happened. If you are attracted
Speaker 1: to somebody else, how are you going to know when
Speaker 1: to stop? It's okay to be attracted somebody else. Let's
Speaker 1: talk about it. We don't talk about it, and we
Speaker 1: assume you can't fight monogamy with a promise you can't
Speaker 1: fight it with vows. You can only do prevent you
Speaker 1: is about talking about it, and that's one thing we
Speaker 1: don't do. So let me let me just be clear.
Speaker 1: So you propose that couples um kind of put this
Speaker 1: on the table even before this becomes an issue, so
Speaker 1: like after the affair has happened, it's really kind of
Speaker 1: too late to start the discussion. You are saying it
Speaker 1: should be a part of conversation, like even before anything
Speaker 1: ever happened. Yes, I think that um preventatives can happen before,
Speaker 1: but far as when the couple choose to reconnect, we
Speaker 1: need to start having a conversation. Because one thing is
Speaker 1: nobody is immune to affairs. You don't bad people don't
Speaker 1: have affairs. You don't have to have a bad marriage
Speaker 1: to have an affair. You know, it's just a lot
Speaker 1: of aspects that come to an affair. You know, people,
Speaker 1: some people are put towards affairs, some people are pushed
Speaker 1: towards affairs, and then society plays a big role in affairs.
Speaker 1: It's so many dynamics to affair that these are the
Speaker 1: things we need to talk about and we're not talking
Speaker 1: about them. We're not talking about them. Two afterwards, we
Speaker 1: think that because somebody say that they love us, that
Speaker 1: they won't have affection towards nobody else because we're not
Speaker 1: talking about it and I'm not saying and another thing,
Speaker 1: UM with the person who will commenced the affair, when
Speaker 1: I started talking about societal value, society and community. To me,
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about is how did you learn first
Speaker 1: learn about infidelity? How was infidelity portraying your family or
Speaker 1: in your community, because that means a lot, because that
Speaker 1: kind of shapes how you feel about it. Now. To
Speaker 1: have an affair is a choice. Please believe me. It's
Speaker 1: a choice because you have everything you need, but you
Speaker 1: have to make a choice to do that. So I
Speaker 1: don't want everybody say, well, she acts like it just happened. No, no, no,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Don't happen. There's a choice. You do have
Speaker 1: a choice, you do have some control. But it helps
Speaker 1: with communication. M So I do want to go back
Speaker 1: to UM. Well a couple of different things. So first
Speaker 1: I want to here and I'm not sure if I
Speaker 1: missed this. You broke up a little bit earlier in
Speaker 1: the conversation. UM, did you outline with the seven steps
Speaker 1: where in terms of recovery. Did you say that? No? Okay,
Speaker 1: so can you share that with us? Okay? The seven steps, um.
Speaker 1: The first is like you know, you do the the intake. Um,
Speaker 1: we have like uh, really talking about what our goals are,
Speaker 1: what we wanna do, and we call that the commitment stage,
Speaker 1: you know, recommitting, you know, making our rules. The second
Speaker 1: step is like the fair story. So, um, were at
Speaker 1: first the fair step is really making sure the affair
Speaker 1: is over too. You have to make sure that the
Speaker 1: affair is over. So that's one thing is that's the
Speaker 1: biggest thing. And see I have a no secrets policy,
Speaker 1: so I don't keep secrets, so you can't come until
Speaker 1: you know that, do not. You have to be really
Speaker 1: to end affair. And so the first STA is like
Speaker 1: the commitment and we even and write a letter to
Speaker 1: the fair partner letting them know that I have to
Speaker 1: end it. You know, some people, is this something that
Speaker 1: would actually be given to the person. It's up to
Speaker 1: the couple because right now, the seventh step is something
Speaker 1: that uh we do together. Okay, the seventh step something
Speaker 1: we do together so many times, you know, because we're
Speaker 1: trying to take the secret out of it. We gotta
Speaker 1: take the secrecy out of it. So we're gonna do
Speaker 1: these steps together. So that's why we make the UM.
Speaker 1: When we make the commitment, we make the commitment to
Speaker 1: each other. We're gonna choose do we want to tell
Speaker 1: the third party that is over? Are you? Some people
Speaker 1: choose not to write it, some people choose to write it,
Speaker 1: and some people choose to even me mm hmmm mm hmm. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: So you facilitated like meetings like that. No, No, I
Speaker 1: don't facilitate the third party meetings, but I really help
Speaker 1: with UH. That comes with strong culture or some people
Speaker 1: sometimes stuff. A lot of stuff happened outside of therapy,
Speaker 1: and it just lets you know what happened. It just
Speaker 1: lets you know all by the way we met with song,
Speaker 1: so I'll be like, what you know? So then we
Speaker 1: So then we do the Fair story and that's UM.
Speaker 1: That's when we talk about really what happened at Fair, UM,
Speaker 1: preparing for the disclosure, UM, talking setting up the apology,
Speaker 1: you know, really being authentic, not just and really really
Speaker 1: not being remorseful for getting caught, but really talk about
Speaker 1: the pain and hurt. So we really get deep in that.
Speaker 1: So that's really learning a fair story, and we kind
Speaker 1: of have things that we talk about that need to
Speaker 1: be discussed because the portrayed partners are all these like
Speaker 1: a mini movie because it's PTSD, so UM and that's
Speaker 1: a lot of people don't understand that finding out about
Speaker 1: UM an affair and being a victim of affair is
Speaker 1: it's kind of compared parable to h trauma. The experienced PTSD,
Speaker 1: they have flashbacks that have everything. So what the fair
Speaker 1: story is trying to do is put all those pieces
Speaker 1: together so they can move on to the next step.
Speaker 1: So that's the a fair story. And then we talk
Speaker 1: about personal healing. We talk about emotions, obsessions, how to
Speaker 1: manage emotions to the unfaithful partner. UM. Really just trying
Speaker 1: to heal personally together. I know it sounds crazy, but yeah, personally,
Speaker 1: but together with the support of each other because remember,
Speaker 1: first we didn't we had is um separated life. But
Speaker 1: now we're going to do everything together because this is
Speaker 1: the recommitment to the marriage. Okay. And then one thing
Speaker 1: that I know is hard, but I'm a sex therapist
Speaker 1: and this is one of my part. Even though the
Speaker 1: step the step four is sex and intimacy, I know
Speaker 1: who you don't even like this person, you very don't
Speaker 1: want to have sex. So what we do is still
Speaker 1: from the beginning, we try to have intimacy, not necessarily
Speaker 1: UM sex, but even touching, cuddling or something even sitting
Speaker 1: next to each other or hold their hands. You have
Speaker 1: to start building that intimate bond to see that UM,
Speaker 1: we're secure and grounding each other and we're gonna work
Speaker 1: through this to each other. Eventually it might end up
Speaker 1: in sex, but we need some kind of intimate touch
Speaker 1: to make sure that we're on the right path. Some
Speaker 1: women can go full fledge and just start having more
Speaker 1: sexual UM activities. Others need a little bit more time.
Speaker 1: But from the first thing, we really say, even though
Speaker 1: if you choose not to, we need to form intimacy
Speaker 1: because we're working on this together. So to work on
Speaker 1: something together, we can have to do something that we
Speaker 1: never done. And that's what we talked about sex star marriages.
Speaker 1: We just talked about UM setting up UM sex. And
Speaker 1: when I say sex is all different aspects and sex,
Speaker 1: I just don't mean intercourse. We UM we have physical connection.
Speaker 1: UM five is emotional needs. This is when we really
Speaker 1: talk about what actually emotions do we need because as
Speaker 1: you know couples, we don't talk. We don't talk. We
Speaker 1: assume and we don't talk because what might up we
Speaker 1: liked when we were this point in our lives, it
Speaker 1: might not work in this point in our We don't know.
Speaker 1: We age daily things change, so we have to really
Speaker 1: and this is where I put in checkpoints. We set
Speaker 1: up schedule weekly check in is how I'm doing, how
Speaker 1: you're feeling, really trying to get that emotional bond and
Speaker 1: really trying to secure that emotional that emotional needs. We
Speaker 1: do a needs assessment where um, we talk about we
Speaker 1: do one person do it and another person do it
Speaker 1: and not only talk about the needs about how would
Speaker 1: you like me to give it to you? Because it's
Speaker 1: easy to say I want you to love me more,
Speaker 1: but what does that look like? Right? And then step
Speaker 1: six is forgiveness. UM, this is where we talk about
Speaker 1: genuine forgiveness. We talk about what you need to forgive, um,
Speaker 1: steps to forgive and are we ready to forgive? And
Speaker 1: then seven is just moving forward? So that mean we're
Speaker 1: just taking everything that we talked about and how can
Speaker 1: we move forward? We talk about relaxed prevention, you know,
Speaker 1: and we even talk about if we're gonna own a couple.
Speaker 1: One thing about the Seventh Step program, it's giving you information.
Speaker 1: If you choose to recommit, you can, but if you don't,
Speaker 1: you have all the information that you need to move forward. Because,
Speaker 1: like I love to tell people, just because you leave
Speaker 1: the situation, the trauma is still there. So just because
Speaker 1: you need the situation doesn't mean it's gonna make it better. Because,
Speaker 1: as we all know, you carry that baggage with you.
Speaker 1: So if you don't heal properly, if you don't heal properly,
Speaker 1: you're just gonna take those lack of expectations or high
Speaker 1: expectations or low confidence to the next relationship and just
Speaker 1: start all over again. So is this work always done
Speaker 1: like you're I'm trying to get an idea of, like
Speaker 1: what your sessions look like. Is it always that you're
Speaker 1: meeting with both of the parties or do you do
Speaker 1: some individual sessions as well? One thing is I try
Speaker 1: to meet, uh once we're tired. The thing to recommend
Speaker 1: I usually have an individual session with each party, but
Speaker 1: the rest of the sessions are done together. Uh. If somebody, like,
Speaker 1: if somebody's stuck at a stage, I usually refer out
Speaker 1: this is more coaching than therapy. If somebody just like
Speaker 1: say in the forgiveness just say, you have you stuck
Speaker 1: on forgiveness. It may be some internal factors that happened
Speaker 1: in your life that you just can't forget. So I
Speaker 1: refer out to work with an individual therapists to work
Speaker 1: with them on forgiveness, so when they come back, we
Speaker 1: had a better um way to work for how it
Speaker 1: looks for the couple? Okay, okay, So and that's one
Speaker 1: thing I got to make sure. The Seventh Step program
Speaker 1: is a coaching. It's a coaching, so it's not therapy.
Speaker 1: I really don't go into do therapy. I refer out
Speaker 1: the therapist for this one. Okay, okay, So how long
Speaker 1: you know, on average, and I know this probably looks
Speaker 1: different for a lot of couples, but on average, like
Speaker 1: how long do the seven steps take two to work through?
Speaker 1: The Seventh Step program is a commitment of ninety days, um,
Speaker 1: but it can take longer than that because sometimes we
Speaker 1: have to stay longer. Um. Just say, we might spend
Speaker 1: a great amount of time on a fair story, you know,
Speaker 1: because getting it off, you know, stopping getting it through,
Speaker 1: but we gotta push through it. But we might spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time on sex and intimacy, you know.
Speaker 1: So it's a ninety day program and it's follow up,
Speaker 1: you know, just like with anything UM, you just don't
Speaker 1: learn something and just say, oh I learned and now
Speaker 1: know it's following up, follow up, it's maintenance. You have
Speaker 1: to check in with each other some I offer you
Speaker 1: check in with me, we see how everything going. Re
Speaker 1: last prevention. What's going on? Are you utilizing the things
Speaker 1: we talked about? Okay, the work is really done outside
Speaker 1: the session? Yeah, I mean it definitely sounds like a
Speaker 1: lot of work as I hear you talk about it,
Speaker 1: which if you're if you're trying to rebuild your marriage,
Speaker 1: then you know that will take a lot of effort
Speaker 1: in hard work for sure. It is. Yeah. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts around UM? You mentioned like the
Speaker 1: letter that would maybe need to be written to the
Speaker 1: UM a fair partner UM. But what are your thoughts
Speaker 1: about like does UM the connection need to be dissolved completely?
Speaker 1: Like let's say they had an affair with the coworker,
Speaker 1: is the suggestion then that they need to find a
Speaker 1: new job, like can there be no contact or what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts about that it depends on if it's
Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with a job at the job interferes
Speaker 1: with the healings. They have to come to gather and
Speaker 1: feel like maybe that you should leave. It's as a together,
Speaker 1: we're together. So they both agree that this is not
Speaker 1: going to work. They need agree to move on to
Speaker 1: another job. Some things can't be we I got stories
Speaker 1: about the third party too, but that's a whole another show.
Speaker 1: And I know I'm sound like I'm repeat myself, but
Speaker 1: I just want to say anything. They chooses together, so
Speaker 1: it's a chance that they make together. If they feel
Speaker 1: like um infidel feels like they can continue to work
Speaker 1: without any drama, everything is dissolved. Fine if they feel
Speaker 1: like it's not gonna be in temptation. But that's where
Speaker 1: honesty come through. You know, I don't feel like I
Speaker 1: can honestly go to work after I did this, this, this, this,
Speaker 1: and look at her, look at my coworker, look at him,
Speaker 1: look at my co workers. I think I need to
Speaker 1: go somewhere else. This is when we really had an
Speaker 1: intake session. This is when we really get to the
Speaker 1: route of stuff. Are you remorseful, are you ready to change?
Speaker 1: Are you willing to uh reconnect and fight for your marriage.
Speaker 1: These are the things that happen. And this will also
Speaker 1: the factors that influence if the affair um if to
Speaker 1: stay or to leave. So these are a lot of
Speaker 1: factors that influenced that too. Okay, So really in this
Speaker 1: intake session, you're getting a lot of information that will
Speaker 1: let you know whether you even can move on to
Speaker 1: these next six steps. Yeah, because that's that's the one
Speaker 1: we see the I see the commitment, you can I
Speaker 1: set up the environment, I can see the reluctance, I
Speaker 1: can see the commitment. I can see um. You can
Speaker 1: just see it, and I just let them know there's
Speaker 1: no reason to wasteeing it all the time. And sometimes
Speaker 1: I send them off for individual to get there what
Speaker 1: they want to do together before they come back and couple,
Speaker 1: because sometimes you can't work on we. We are working
Speaker 1: on me, you know, because sometimes in different um off fairs,
Speaker 1: we get married sometimes to to heal from something else.
Speaker 1: So an affair happens in the midst of alltist chaos.
Speaker 1: So I'm not healed. I'm not a whole person. This
Speaker 1: affair just bought in the light something that I've been
Speaker 1: struggled with all the time, got you, you know, and
Speaker 1: affairs just don't mean divorce. You know, people stay together
Speaker 1: after affairs, and and let the record show that some affairs,
Speaker 1: I know, it's hard to believe bring people closer together. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I definitely have often heard that that, you know, relationships
Speaker 1: can be much stronger because I think you know, all
Speaker 1: of this open and honest communication that wasn't present before.
Speaker 1: Now there's kind of like a breeding ground of that,
Speaker 1: and you kind of carry that throughout the rest of
Speaker 1: the relationship. Yeah, and get consent. I mean, you don't
Speaker 1: assume monogamy. You talk about it. So sometimes you asked,
Speaker 1: you know, we I love you, you love me, But
Speaker 1: do you u to have an open marriage? Do you
Speaker 1: think I fulfill? You said, I mean, this is where
Speaker 1: we have honest communication and just be open. You'd be
Speaker 1: open to given and open to receive. And it's a
Speaker 1: shared space, and so many people are scared of that.
Speaker 1: So I said, if you're so scared, why are you
Speaker 1: even married to this person? How can you be married
Speaker 1: with somebody you can't talk to? M hmm, Okay. So
Speaker 1: I do want to go back to the whole role
Speaker 1: of social media because I would have I would imagine
Speaker 1: that that has um you know, I mean and people
Speaker 1: have always had affairs, right, I mean that's not new.
Speaker 1: But I do think with the advent of social media
Speaker 1: and how easy it is for us to connect with
Speaker 1: people around the world, UM, it has added you know,
Speaker 1: like these different uh complexities to you know, the ability
Speaker 1: or the ease at which you might have an affair. UM.
Speaker 1: So how do you see social media kind of playing
Speaker 1: a role in some of the work that you do.
Speaker 1: Social media, um is what you make it. Um. It
Speaker 1: comes with how you use it, how to utilize it,
Speaker 1: what are you getting from it? Uh? Social media is
Speaker 1: away sometimes when we talk about the split sealves. You know,
Speaker 1: social media is something that you can live and that's
Speaker 1: not even you. So just say, if you have an
Speaker 1: affair and you don't have it for you can recreate
Speaker 1: yourself on the internet. You can live like somebody else.
Speaker 1: You only show people snippets of your life. So it's
Speaker 1: another part that something is else's internally you're fighting with
Speaker 1: something and it just leads to a fair affairs opportunity.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't think of big getting about getting
Speaker 1: called and self affairs opportunity has social media open up
Speaker 1: for affair, yes, I mean, but then we got to
Speaker 1: ask ourselves about I hear people who got share social
Speaker 1: media's accounts. You know, they they want to be on
Speaker 1: they want to know each other. But then then we
Speaker 1: have the trust issue, you know, everything, so we have
Speaker 1: to really look at the communication and stuff in the relationship.
Speaker 1: I just think, uh, if you are in a relationship,
Speaker 1: that social media is not gonna make you do anything.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. I think that, um, the door is already open,
Speaker 1: like they say, the door is already open for anything,
Speaker 1: and that's when you really need to have an honest communication.
Speaker 1: And why are you even doing it? So what are
Speaker 1: your thoughts about UM? You know, because I often see too,
Speaker 1: UM like people who want to then be able to
Speaker 1: check their partners um text messages all the time and
Speaker 1: want to be able to go through and all of that,
Speaker 1: Like where does that or what are the guidelines around that?
Speaker 1: If we are going to be UM healing and working
Speaker 1: towards recommitting in our marriage again, you do what works
Speaker 1: best for you. I know some people who don't even
Speaker 1: choose not to even have internet on their phone, UM,
Speaker 1: who are moving social media comments because their commitment is
Speaker 1: to their spouse and then they do one because they
Speaker 1: don't want any doubt. But um, again I asked. We
Speaker 1: talk about trust issues, we talk about forgiving, and I
Speaker 1: always asked the person, if you look for something, you're
Speaker 1: gonna find it. So what's the boundaries? Like you said,
Speaker 1: so we look at okay, social media, let'sons okay. One
Speaker 1: thing about it, for recommitting is recontracting. So you have
Speaker 1: a social media contract. It's sound elementary, but it's in
Speaker 1: black and white. Right. Can I like other people pictures?
Speaker 1: Can I befriend these people? What's awful? Limits? Instead of
Speaker 1: waiting for it to happen, let's talk about it. Can
Speaker 1: I comment on somebody that they got a nice butt
Speaker 1: or they look good today? You know what's crossing the
Speaker 1: boundaries is again, it's communicating about it and recommitment, recontract.
Speaker 1: That's one so great about love and everything. People think
Speaker 1: that you can just say one thing in the last,
Speaker 1: but no, you can always recontract, recontract. If you want
Speaker 1: to know something you don't understand, let's sit down and
Speaker 1: discuss it. I can't tell you what's wrong if we
Speaker 1: didn't discuss it. Well, I don't like you doing that.
Speaker 1: I don't like how that makes our marriage look bad?
Speaker 1: People see you and let's talk about it. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that brings me to you another question around UM, you know,
Speaker 1: like I think sometimes people might decide to actually work
Speaker 1: on their marriage again after infidelity. But I do think
Speaker 1: that UM, the community and like maybe your friend circle
Speaker 1: and your worries about you know, like what other people
Speaker 1: are going to say can impact your decision about whether
Speaker 1: you're going to try to work on it again. UM,
Speaker 1: So what would you say to UM like support circles?
Speaker 1: Like how can they be supportive to UM like a
Speaker 1: couple who's continuing to work on their marriage after infidelity.
Speaker 1: I think that if oh my goodness, I got so
Speaker 1: much to say about that. UM, you need to surround
Speaker 1: yourself with people who have your best interests in mind. Okay,
Speaker 1: some people might think you're you shouldn't go back. Some
Speaker 1: people think you should work on your marriage. If you
Speaker 1: choose to go back. I'm not saying that you should
Speaker 1: uh leave the people who said you shouldn't go back,
Speaker 1: but you should have an open dialogue with them that
Speaker 1: I really understand how you feel. But I want to
Speaker 1: get back into my relationship, and I hope and I
Speaker 1: wish that you support me on this, you know, really
Speaker 1: making that UM a statement and really showing other people
Speaker 1: that you're gonna be for UM for your marriage and
Speaker 1: really you in informity because that's what happened so much
Speaker 1: that when people come in for affairs, believe it or not,
Speaker 1: they're so worried about who knows. That's one of the
Speaker 1: big This thing is shame. How could you do this
Speaker 1: to me? How could you do this to us? You know,
Speaker 1: what are people going to think? And they shame and
Speaker 1: then they start to blame you know. So that's the
Speaker 1: biggest thing to find out about. Affair is more traumatic
Speaker 1: than the affair, believe it or not. Yeah, So you
Speaker 1: would propose that they have a conversation with their friend
Speaker 1: groups about you know, I asked them from support and
Speaker 1: if they don't you, I don't think you should really
Speaker 1: um fire them, but choose, just choose when to expand
Speaker 1: your horizons, because that's and one thing is I don't
Speaker 1: talk about what's right or wrong? Who right around? I'll
Speaker 1: talk about what's right or wrong. And one thing that
Speaker 1: we talk about is the affair is so bigger than
Speaker 1: me and you. Society has a big place, a major
Speaker 1: role in affairs. And when I tell people that, they
Speaker 1: just look at me. I said, it does. When is
Speaker 1: the first time you you know about affairs? How did
Speaker 1: you learn about affairs? You know, how was the affairs
Speaker 1: portraying your partner, your family? I mean, because our experience
Speaker 1: becomes our expectations. That's why we need to talk about it.
Speaker 1: And look at how society, I mean, to be a
Speaker 1: mistress is glamorized. You know, it's to be a mistress
Speaker 1: is glamorized and everything. And I mean, they just got
Speaker 1: so many perks. So you think until you really talk
Speaker 1: to a mistress, you know, So I think, really society
Speaker 1: has and to talk about that, to talk about you know,
Speaker 1: how do you feel about um, how affairs are, how
Speaker 1: do your friends support it? We don't talk about infidelity.
Speaker 1: Infidelity is done in secret. You know, it's like a
Speaker 1: secret society. So we shine a light on it. Maybe
Speaker 1: it won't be so fun anymore we start talking about it.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's not as well all people. When you start
Speaker 1: hearing some of these affair stories, they're not really glamorous.
Speaker 1: They're right, they're really not. But we got to talk
Speaker 1: about it to hear it. Excellent excellent advice. So what
Speaker 1: resources would you offer to people who are maybe struggling
Speaker 1: with this or you know, like need some more information
Speaker 1: about UM, like do they want to continue to work
Speaker 1: on their marriage after finding out about an affair. One
Speaker 1: thing is before you look at any resources, I would
Speaker 1: just say, UM, do an internal check in with yourself.
Speaker 1: Really look and see what how you feeling? UM really
Speaker 1: a pro and colmless, really looking at the relationship. How
Speaker 1: is the relationship even before the affair? You know, really
Speaker 1: thinking about and yes, I'm gonna say it, really thinking
Speaker 1: about how did you contribute to the affair? I know
Speaker 1: this is a session that I know. I tell people
Speaker 1: that and they look at me and I said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask you Max everybody because I want to
Speaker 1: do that good big internal thought because contrary to people believe,
Speaker 1: some people know about affair. And you know, when they withhold,
Speaker 1: they know that they know about it. It's only when
Speaker 1: other people find it out about it that they got
Speaker 1: a problem. So I say, during internal check in with yourself,
Speaker 1: and then when you feel like you grounded and you
Speaker 1: know what you need UM. Infidelity Recovery Institute has a
Speaker 1: lot of good articles. It's a lot of great blocks
Speaker 1: out there um, and then to determine. Uh, we have
Speaker 1: an Infidelity Recovery Institute has a quiz. Um gonna have
Speaker 1: an affair affair aftercres my website, I'm gonna have a quiz.
Speaker 1: It will tell you the types of affair and what's
Speaker 1: the healing process look like. Um, you see what you
Speaker 1: wanna do? Talk to your partner, is your partner remorseful,
Speaker 1: decide if you really want to go on with the marriage.
Speaker 1: If you do, getting the tools to move on, and
Speaker 1: if you decide to uncouple, also get the tools to
Speaker 1: make it successful. Perfect, perfect, and all of this would
Speaker 1: be included in the show notes so that people can
Speaker 1: find it really easily. So can you give us your
Speaker 1: website and where people can find you on social media? Okay,
Speaker 1: my website is Kaleidoscope Services l l C dot Org.
Speaker 1: I am on Facebook as Ronell Nelson Kaleidoscope Services with
Speaker 1: Ronelle Nelson. I am on Instagram, Ask Noir no e
Speaker 1: sex Therapists. Um. I Also, just because I'm so am,
Speaker 1: I mentioned to talk about infidelity that I have another
Speaker 1: web style call um a fair Aftercare that's in the
Speaker 1: process of being put together where I'm gonna have all
Speaker 1: the resources, um support groups and all that at a
Speaker 1: Fair Aftercare and Instagram at the same name, at a
Speaker 1: Fair after Career. Okay perfect, I'm definitely looking forward to
Speaker 1: seeing more of those resources. Well, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us to day, Ronelle. I really appreciate you
Speaker 1: having this conversation and sharing so much information with us. Yes,
Speaker 1: I enjoy any time, any time. Thank you so. I
Speaker 1: hope that you can appreciate all of the great information
Speaker 1: that Ronew shared with us, and all of the resources
Speaker 1: that she mentioned will be included on the show notes.
Speaker 1: You can find those at Therapy for Black Girls dot
Speaker 1: com slash session, and please make sure to give us
Speaker 1: your feedback about the episode hashtag using tv G in session.
Speaker 1: On social media, you can find us on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Therapy for the Number four be Girls, and you can
Speaker 1: find us on Instagram and Facebook at Therapy for Black Girls.
Speaker 1: I'm looking forward to continuing this conversation with you real soon.
Speaker 1: Take it care a FI