Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
Speaker 1: back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. Let's give a big shout
Speaker 1: out to our one and only super producer. You know him,
Speaker 1: you love him, the man, the myth a legend, Mr
Speaker 1: Max Williams. They called me ben Nol. Today's episode is
Speaker 1: about bird poop. Yeah, and I think it's not the
Speaker 1: first time we've talked about bird poop on this show.
Speaker 1: That's correct, I'm not mistaken. There was another episode about
Speaker 1: bird poop when we when this topic came up from
Speaker 1: our incredible new researcher Jeff, I had to do a
Speaker 1: double tay. That's where we've on this. But no, in fact,
Speaker 1: we did another episode that involved guano, which is a
Speaker 1: catch all terms not just for bat poop, for any
Speaker 1: avian creatures poop, and and it's very useful stuff and
Speaker 1: often the subject of not only intense debate, you know
Speaker 1: as to what creatures quote qualified for guano, but you know,
Speaker 1: bloody wars over the stuff because it's like good for
Speaker 1: lots of things, including making bombs. Yep. Agreed, guano is
Speaker 1: a resource all its own. Often underestimated because it is
Speaker 1: in fact poop and people have their own, uh somewhat
Speaker 1: prejudicial views about feces. Yes, big announcement, Max, if we
Speaker 1: could get some sort of big announcement music perfect. This
Speaker 1: is the first time we're working with a good friend
Speaker 1: of the show, longtime fan, Mr Jeff Bartlett, a research associate.
Speaker 1: Not the only new addition to our crew. You'll learn
Speaker 1: more in the next episode, but Jeff absolutely wowed us
Speaker 1: with this story that I believe neither of us had
Speaker 1: heard before. It's about how Bolivia lost a serious war
Speaker 1: over bird poop. That's right, and you might also if
Speaker 1: you're interested in bird poop and you want mean I
Speaker 1: have to tell you this, Ben. I used to have
Speaker 1: a boss who is from like the Midwest, and he
Speaker 1: introduced me to the term which I would never use
Speaker 1: in conversation, the straight poop. Well, if you want the
Speaker 1: straight poop on bird poop, we're gonna give you some
Speaker 1: of that today. But you can also get it from
Speaker 1: an episode that we did about when US farmers went
Speaker 1: nuts about bird poop. And it's actually a good primer
Speaker 1: for this episode because of the reason for this bloody
Speaker 1: conflict was an explosion no pun intended in the demand
Speaker 1: for bird poop, and a large part of that was
Speaker 1: because of agriculture. Yep, that's correct, So we know since
Speaker 1: before the dawn of the written word, wars have often
Speaker 1: been the result of disputes over territory and more pointedly,
Speaker 1: the resources those territories contain. We're talking today about something
Speaker 1: that you would call the War of the Pacific or
Speaker 1: la Guiartra del Pacifical. It took place from eighteen seventy
Speaker 1: nine to eighteen eighty three, and this was an international
Speaker 1: conflict involved Chile, Bolivia and Peru, and it started as
Speaker 1: a beef that Chile and Bolivia had over who controlled
Speaker 1: part of the Atacama Desert. This is something that is
Speaker 1: known historically. You can see it in Britannica. We also
Speaker 1: like to recommend an excellent source that our our guy
Speaker 1: Jeff found, the National Interest why Bolivia and Chile once
Speaker 1: went to war over guando parentheses bird droppings. So the uh,
Speaker 1: this is by Peter Seucy so shout out to him.
Speaker 1: But the spoiler, there's a reason that they were fighting
Speaker 1: so ardently over this poop, and it's not They weren't
Speaker 1: just super into poop for poop's sake alone. If you
Speaker 1: look at the desert, it's between the twenty three and
Speaker 1: parallels on the Pacific coast of South America. I visited.
Speaker 1: It's lovely and you should check it out if you're
Speaker 1: the chance. But they were thinking in particular of something
Speaker 1: called sodium nitrate. Yeah, that's right, um. You know, bird
Speaker 1: poop isn't just the stuff that you you know, are
Speaker 1: disgusted by and angry at birds when you shake your
Speaker 1: fists at the heavens when you see it on your car,
Speaker 1: God forbids you have a black car, because it's just
Speaker 1: the most you know, obvious thing in the world, sticks
Speaker 1: out like a sore thumb, and it's gross, so you
Speaker 1: gotta scrape it off or like go to a car wash.
Speaker 1: But then you can have the car wash and one
Speaker 1: inevitably happens another bird poops on your car. What can
Speaker 1: happen with this stuff? Though? In times remember their work
Speaker 1: cars parked everywhere. Instead of that stuff landing on your car,
Speaker 1: it would end up in the ground or in the soil,
Speaker 1: and there would be large deposits of it, specifically on
Speaker 1: coastal areas where seabirds, you know, are always pooping that's
Speaker 1: what we're dealing with here is a coastal region that
Speaker 1: contained significant deposits of guano, which is an incredible source
Speaker 1: of nitrogen, phosphate, and potassium, which are all materials that
Speaker 1: can be used to make gunpowder and you know, things
Speaker 1: that go boom. Yeah, And for a little bit of background,
Speaker 1: this was an area that was ripe for this sort
Speaker 1: of territorial dispute. The countries involved, Chile and Bolivia had
Speaker 1: earlier negotiated a treaty that recognized specifically the twenty four
Speaker 1: parallel as their international boundary, and it gave Chile also
Speaker 1: the right to share in export taxes on the mineral
Speaker 1: resources of Bolivia's territory in this area, just in general,
Speaker 1: the general mineral resources. But Bolivia was increasingly less happy
Speaker 1: with this relationship. You know, they thought, they thought, well,
Speaker 1: Chile is big and um and they're parasitic. It's a
Speaker 1: parasitic partnership, they were thinking. So they thought, you know,
Speaker 1: Chile might try to take over our coastal region because
Speaker 1: from a business perspective, they already have their creepy tentacles
Speaker 1: and the mining industry. But in addition to that, excellent
Speaker 1: Spanish produnciation to give Earlier, the War of the Pacific
Speaker 1: was also called the Saltpeter War, which referred to the
Speaker 1: stuff in the guano, which we're going to get to,
Speaker 1: that whole side of things that was so sought after
Speaker 1: and used to make explosives and gunpowder. So here's the
Speaker 1: root of the conflict. Chilean and British businesses in the area.
Speaker 1: They've got their tax regimes set out, and if you
Speaker 1: asked those folks, they would say that Bolivia was the
Speaker 1: parasite in the relationship or in the interaction, because as
Speaker 1: these businesses began to make more money in the region,
Speaker 1: the Bolivian government, controlling the territory UH in practice at
Speaker 1: this point, said we're going to increase the taxes. We're
Speaker 1: going to get more of a big off the work
Speaker 1: that you are doing. And since the border treaty that
Speaker 1: they had signed earlier back in eighteen seventy four did
Speaker 1: not allow for this tax increase, and these private companies
Speaker 1: felt the tax was unfair. They started going They're very
Speaker 1: powerful people, they started going to the Chilean government and
Speaker 1: they said, hey, you guys have to get involved. We
Speaker 1: are taking a bath on this. It's unfair because we're
Speaker 1: doing all the work and they're just sort of taking
Speaker 1: money from us, or you know, taking what we have
Speaker 1: done and for their own. And then this led to
Speaker 1: a diplomatic crisis, it led to a war, and because
Speaker 1: it led to a war, the Chilean government officials learned
Speaker 1: that the whole time Bolivia had been secretly booed up
Speaker 1: with Peru. They had a kind of alliance that said,
Speaker 1: you know, somebody starts to fight with you, they start
Speaker 1: a fight with me, that's right. And then in eighteen
Speaker 1: seventy eight, the Bolivian government under President Hilarion Daza put
Speaker 1: out a decree that announced a backdated eighteen seventy four
Speaker 1: tax increase on Chilean companies. And the Chilean companies were
Speaker 1: not happy about this. Their government under President on About Pinto.
Speaker 1: So this was not in step with the border treaty.
Speaker 1: So then one of those companies meant that you mentioned, uh,
Speaker 1: the Anna Fagasta Nitrate and Railway company. They just flat
Speaker 1: out refused to pay. And at that point the Bolivian
Speaker 1: government says, okay, then we're going to confiscate your property.
Speaker 1: So that's not cool. At that point, Chili responded by
Speaker 1: this this is the war that you're talking about, just
Speaker 1: some of the details as to like how it kind
Speaker 1: of began. At this point, Chili respondent as you should,
Speaker 1: as you must. You know, if your government you got,
Speaker 1: you can't be flexed on without flexing back in return.
Speaker 1: Uh decided to take it to the next, you know,
Speaker 1: highest level of flex by sending a warship to the area.
Speaker 1: Pretty pretty serious escalation and going from threats about taxes,
Speaker 1: confiscating property to full on warship invasion, and that was
Speaker 1: in December of eighteen seventy eight. Bolivia then announced that
Speaker 1: they were going to seize and auction the entire company
Speaker 1: that and IF and if Agasta Nitrate and Railway company,
Speaker 1: and that was going to happen on on Valentine's Day
Speaker 1: of February fourteenth. So then Chile, you know, not to
Speaker 1: be outdone, once again threatened that if they did that,
Speaker 1: it would render the border treaty null, which was all anybody,
Speaker 1: which is all they wanted in the first place. So
Speaker 1: at this point it's become a pretty nasty back and
Speaker 1: forth that is on the verge of an explosion, like
Speaker 1: literally like a like a diplomatic explosion, a real powder Kang,
Speaker 1: which is appropriate considering the materials we're talking about today. So,
Speaker 1: in the day of that auction, which ended up being
Speaker 1: the high water mark, uh you know, match strike day
Speaker 1: of this conflict, two thousand Chilean soldiers poured into the country,
Speaker 1: got off their boat and claimed the ports city of
Speaker 1: Antifagasta without a fight. It was a bloodless takeover, thankfully
Speaker 1: at the time. Now we have a massive border dispute,
Speaker 1: massive territorial dispute. Yeah, it only took about a week
Speaker 1: for Bolivia to declare war. And then say, oh, you've
Speaker 1: triggered my trap card. And my trap card is this
Speaker 1: secret alliance with Peru? Is that a magic thing? Trap
Speaker 1: card is my attempt to reference a meme that comes
Speaker 1: from a card game called u g O, which some
Speaker 1: of our fellow ridiculous historians may remember probably, So yeah,
Speaker 1: Ugo is like kind of the poor man's Pokemon, and
Speaker 1: which was like magic for kids. I always loved playing bookmon,
Speaker 1: but I've never gotten the gumption to get into magic.
Speaker 1: I really want to. It's a lot of fun. I
Speaker 1: got two things for us right here. One, I have
Speaker 1: a buddy who dreamed of being a professional Ugo player,
Speaker 1: I don't know if that actually exists, but he dreamed
Speaker 1: Number two dreams bring it out a couple of feet away.
Speaker 1: I got a giant desk that I do all my
Speaker 1: stuff on, and no joke, I have an entire drawer
Speaker 1: just dedicated to childhood, you know, um fun items. It's
Speaker 1: the biggest drawer of my desk. I I mean, I
Speaker 1: really should grow up already. Will you teach me how
Speaker 1: to play? Of course? Yeah, we will walk together. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't have that any good cards.
Speaker 1: I think, like my holographic charts are not first edition,
Speaker 1: but just holographic charts. You got a few of those
Speaker 1: metallic e ones. Me and my kid were into and
Speaker 1: she was little. We had the matt and everything, and
Speaker 1: I really liked playing. I think I liked it more
Speaker 1: than she did, so Max, I fully am on board
Speaker 1: with this and Ben. It's a super fun game and
Speaker 1: very quick to pick up, and I think I have
Speaker 1: about as many as you do in a couple of
Speaker 1: big freezer bags. Let's all go hang on to this
Speaker 1: guy right on, because I still have a secret thing
Speaker 1: for you. Max. I. I had left it at the
Speaker 1: office and I took it back because we're in the
Speaker 1: midst of a move, but so is Bolivia at this
Speaker 1: time their secret alliance. Its official name is the Defensive
Speaker 1: Tree of eighteen seventy three. And then Peruvian government wants
Speaker 1: to stay true to their words, so they say, not
Speaker 1: only are we gonna make good on our agreement with Bolivia,
Speaker 1: but in the great geopolitical game and the long term chess,
Speaker 1: this matters to us because we believe Chile is expansionist,
Speaker 1: and we're also kind of worried that not everybody's in
Speaker 1: the best shape to face the Chilean army. So Peru
Speaker 1: at first counsel's a peaceful resolution. They say, all right,
Speaker 1: we're gonna send one of our top guys, one of
Speaker 1: our top men shout out to Indiana Jones to negotiate
Speaker 1: with the government of Chile. Chile says, we need you
Speaker 1: to make a statement of neutrality, and Peru says, I
Speaker 1: can't really do that because we just went public about
Speaker 1: our secret relationship with Bolivia. And then Chile says, all right, well,
Speaker 1: we're not talking diplomacy at all. We're declaring war on
Speaker 1: both of you. And they do this on April five,
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy nine, and so even though Peru was not
Speaker 1: involved in this guano conversation at all, they got sucked in,
Speaker 1: kind of like if you've ever been in a in
Speaker 1: a bit of a brew haha with your friends or
Speaker 1: a hullabaloo, and then you hear one of your friends say, oh,
Speaker 1: you've got a problem with me, You've got problem with
Speaker 1: all of us, And then you look around and you're like,
Speaker 1: why is this guy pointing at us? Oh? Boy, here
Speaker 1: we go. So Peru lost thousands of of troops and
Speaker 1: a lot of property during the war. At the end
Speaker 1: of the war, there was a seven month civil war.
Speaker 1: Love that when one one war between you and another
Speaker 1: country lead to a war within your own borders amongst
Speaker 1: your own people. And a lot of this has to
Speaker 1: do with the fact that the nation was economically destitute
Speaker 1: after all of this, and continued to be uh for
Speaker 1: many years to come. So finally, in eighteeny four, there
Speaker 1: was a truce between Bolivia and chile Um and Chile
Speaker 1: was given as a condition of this truce, control over
Speaker 1: the entire coast of Bolivia that included the h that
Speaker 1: Um city of Anti Fagasta or the province within and
Speaker 1: all of that good stuff and that was the good
Speaker 1: stuff that was the area with a nitrate and the
Speaker 1: copper and all of these other minerals that were very
Speaker 1: very precious and very very mindable, so that the nineteen
Speaker 1: o four a treaty was established that made this you know,
Speaker 1: I guess temporary truce permanent the law of the lands.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. And at this point, ridiculous historians, if you,
Speaker 1: like the rest of us, are living not in the
Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds, then you may rightly ask yourself, what's the deal?
Speaker 1: Why all this bird poop? We have the answer. Wuanna,
Speaker 1: like we established earlier in this episode, has nitrogen, phosphates,
Speaker 1: a lot of other stuff that is super valuable in
Speaker 1: the industrial age. It works in both agriculture and economic development.
Speaker 1: And we know, thanks to Gregory Cushman, the author of
Speaker 1: Guana and the Opening of the Pacific World, a Global
Speaker 1: Ecological History, that guana was a huge, huge deal. It
Speaker 1: could be used to produce things or be part of
Speaker 1: the production process of goods like glass, bleach dye, color glazes.
Speaker 1: Pushman even says it tells us quite a lot about
Speaker 1: the historical circumstances that have enabled us to grow to
Speaker 1: become so numerous as a species, and he particularly believes
Speaker 1: that fertilizer has played this role in supporting the growth
Speaker 1: of large concentrated populations. So, in a real way, modern
Speaker 1: civilization owes a lot to burp poop or bat poop
Speaker 1: wana nember that. Remember that Ace of Ventura sequel when
Speaker 1: Nature calls the Big Twist, and that one is that
Speaker 1: it's like all about the evil Americans just want the
Speaker 1: guano that like the indigenous people have because of their
Speaker 1: like giant sacred bats or something like that, really really
Speaker 1: problematic if you go back and watch it now, is
Speaker 1: that the one where he comes out of like a
Speaker 1: fake rhinos but or something? He does do that thing? Yes,
Speaker 1: it's uh, it's a genius disguise apparently, And I think
Speaker 1: it was kind of parodied in an episode of Always
Speaker 1: Sunny in Philadelphia where where Frank pops out of like
Speaker 1: a couch like a weird baby seal being born. He's
Speaker 1: all sweaty and covered in slime. I think it's a
Speaker 1: reference to that, but I could be wrong. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I guano is the kicker of that timeless piece of
Speaker 1: of American cinema. So well, Guano is kind of a
Speaker 1: catch all for you know, the excrement of avian creature.
Speaker 1: Just like we said at the top of the show,
Speaker 1: the word guana is obviously a South American word. It
Speaker 1: has come sort of like xerox or coke, you know,
Speaker 1: to become a catch all because of the most popular
Speaker 1: version of a thing for all of the things. You know,
Speaker 1: coke represents all soda, unless you're from the Midwest, in
Speaker 1: which case it's like pop. God forbid you're from the
Speaker 1: Carolinas and call it pepsi because that's a horrible drink.
Speaker 1: But the most important part of the stuff, whatever you
Speaker 1: want to call it, is all of the mineral nitrates
Speaker 1: that are found in the Attacama Desert. Because of this,
Speaker 1: the South American sea birds, specifically their variety of guano,
Speaker 1: happens to be the richest source of this kind of
Speaker 1: nitrogen on the entire planet. Even though any any bird
Speaker 1: poop or avian poop is pretty rich in this stuff.
Speaker 1: Because of specifically the mineral content of the environment that
Speaker 1: these birds find themselves in, there's is the best. That
Speaker 1: is the best poop you can get. Not to mention
Speaker 1: that the climate of the Pacific coast of Chile and
Speaker 1: the chemical balance of you know, the ocean water in Peru.
Speaker 1: They all of these things combined to create this ecosystem
Speaker 1: that creates like the perfect combination of circumstances for an
Speaker 1: incredibly rich environment for fish as well as of course
Speaker 1: the seabirds that eat them. So at all in turn
Speaker 1: goes to create the highest quality guana that you can imagine,
Speaker 1: which would make the boomiest of boom stuff. So there's
Speaker 1: copious amounts of gauan know rich in this phosphates, nitrates,
Speaker 1: and potassiums that are um deposited in this coastal region.
Speaker 1: Not to mention the agricultural angle. These are the three nitrate, phosphate, potassium,
Speaker 1: most important components of any fertilizer. And this wasn't always
Speaker 1: a thing that people were aware of. And because there's
Speaker 1: so little rain in this area, the stuff stays where
Speaker 1: it is, so it can be mind essentially because of
Speaker 1: the dry climate. So it creates these very very rich
Speaker 1: and dense deposits of this stuff. And like I said,
Speaker 1: this wasn't always a thing. There was a revolution going on.
Speaker 1: Ben you mentioned how guano essentially was a huge part
Speaker 1: of the industrial revolution. This was also a huge part
Speaker 1: of industrialized farming. Yeah, this is weird because guana was
Speaker 1: sort of an unsung hero. I would call it of
Speaker 1: the industrial age. Look, I get it for bird poop
Speaker 1: looks gross, right, And if you are familiar with the
Speaker 1: history of fertilizer, you know that feces has played a
Speaker 1: big role at agriculture. Even today, UH, some agricultural communities
Speaker 1: engaged in the practice of night soil, which is using
Speaker 1: human feces to uh, to provide fertilizer for crops. But
Speaker 1: despite bird poops really gross appearance and it's not great smell,
Speaker 1: back in the eighteen hundreds, it was sold around the
Speaker 1: world and it was the number one agricultural fertilizer in
Speaker 1: the US. I mean, even before the war in Bolivia
Speaker 1: we're talking about today, the very first American ships that
Speaker 1: were mining guano. We're doing it in the eighteen thirties
Speaker 1: off the coast of Peru a place called the Chincha Islands,
Speaker 1: and there was a large population of various birds. I
Speaker 1: always love how ridiculous bird names can sound. So let's
Speaker 1: all be adults here. There were pelicans, there were cormorants,
Speaker 1: and there were of course boobies. We can say that
Speaker 1: because it's a family show and it's the actual bird's name,
Speaker 1: but we can still chuckle. Right, Max is tickled by
Speaker 1: that one. It's also a bird called it. Yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: the great bush tit is that one? Am I just
Speaker 1: making it up? I can't. You might have made that
Speaker 1: one to take it to the next floor. There are
Speaker 1: probably tips of different varieties from different regions. I imagine. Yes,
Speaker 1: there is a bird called the bush tit. It is
Speaker 1: not necessarily great, so I guess that part was my opinion,
Speaker 1: But the actual name is bush tit. Anyhow, Off the
Speaker 1: coast of Peru, these American ships find islands that are
Speaker 1: covered in guano almost two hundred feet deep, and this
Speaker 1: Peruvian guano gets popular in the US, and then, like
Speaker 1: you had alluded to earlier, knowl a lot of other companies,
Speaker 1: private interests are searching other parts of the Pacific, in
Speaker 1: the Caribbean to find the better guado. And it really
Speaker 1: all depended on rainfall, because when it would rain on
Speaker 1: these islands or these sources, the nitrates would be sapped
Speaker 1: out of the guano, and so places with relatively dry
Speaker 1: climate like this area of Bolivia slash Chile and the
Speaker 1: Chincha Islands off the coast of Peru because they didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of rain. They had really superpowered, like
Speaker 1: high grade Guando, the best in the world, no hyperbole.
Speaker 1: And as soon as people heard about the beauty of Guado,
Speaker 1: Americans became super super eager. They were feending for it,
Speaker 1: even though various South American governments were selling it at
Speaker 1: a premium. And as crazy as it sounds, the US
Speaker 1: president of the time, Millard Fillmore, even talked about Guando
Speaker 1: in public and it was like a policy issue. It
Speaker 1: was a big, big deal nationally. Millard Fillmore one of
Speaker 1: the nerdiest president names of all time. I don't know why.
Speaker 1: I just think when I hear Millard, I just think
Speaker 1: of Millhouse and this bad things happening to poor Millhouse.
Speaker 1: But then there's that one episode where everything's coming up Millhouse.
Speaker 1: It always makes me happy. Um. Yeah, he said it
Speaker 1: was quote the duty of sorry, it's the duty we're
Speaker 1: talking about poop. Never mind, um, the duty of the
Speaker 1: government to employ Max. I didn't even get a chuckle
Speaker 1: out of you. Good lord, you're letting me down, but
Speaker 1: you're letting It's okay. It's the duty of the government
Speaker 1: to employ all means properly in its power for the
Speaker 1: purpose of causing that article. You know, in that article,
Speaker 1: we're talking about Peruvian guano to be imported into the
Speaker 1: country at a reasonable price. So even Millard Fillmore is
Speaker 1: concerned about the price, I mean, the the taxation. You know,
Speaker 1: that's a that's a big part of uh. You know,
Speaker 1: fair trade between nations is like having a reasonable bill
Speaker 1: and predictable import or export attacks and now hopefully ridiculous historians,
Speaker 1: it seems a little bit less strange that there was
Speaker 1: a war over the poop of flying animals, which is
Speaker 1: guana was just the excrement of pretty much any flying animal,
Speaker 1: from bird to bat. We know that this led to
Speaker 1: other international conflicts. The Cincha Islands became the subject of
Speaker 1: the Cincha Islands War, also related to bird poop, and
Speaker 1: we mentioned this in a previous episode. The US even
Speaker 1: passed legislation eighteen fifty six that said, hey, if you're
Speaker 1: a U. S citizen and you find an unoccupied island
Speaker 1: iguana on it, stick a flag in it, baby, say
Speaker 1: that that's property of the US, because we're not playing
Speaker 1: around and we know no and that and that was
Speaker 1: a big that was a big feature of the previous
Speaker 1: episode that I mentioned at the top of the show,
Speaker 1: when US farmers went crazy for a bird poop. It
Speaker 1: was all about claiming islands that had these deposits. So
Speaker 1: this is an international affair, right And part of the reason,
Speaker 1: again going back to the excellent work of this historian Pushman,
Speaker 1: part of the reason this war spiked was because the
Speaker 1: trade was in danger of being disrupted. There was a
Speaker 1: huge earthquake in eighteen sixty eight, a nine point zero
Speaker 1: magnitude quake that generated a tsunami. And this even back
Speaker 1: in the late eighteen hundreds or mid late eighteen hundreds,
Speaker 1: this earthquake was a big enough deal that people felt
Speaker 1: it in New Zealand, in Japan, in Hawaii. And this
Speaker 1: earthquake struck the Atacama Desert right in the middle of
Speaker 1: this guano nitrates boom. So it put pressure on these countries.
Speaker 1: And it's a good you know, it's fair to ask
Speaker 1: whether this war would have occurred without that earthquake, if
Speaker 1: we would have even had the Salt Pire War or
Speaker 1: the War of the Pacific. I think it's here to
Speaker 1: say that eventually some kind of conflict would have would
Speaker 1: have occurred because people were just gaga for guano. It's
Speaker 1: probably the silliest way to put it. It's a perfectly
Speaker 1: delightful way of putting it, if you ask me. All
Speaker 1: this to say is that there's probably sillier things that
Speaker 1: wars have been waged over. But you know, look, it's
Speaker 1: only silly because we're children, and um, we think poop
Speaker 1: is funny. But you know, it doesn't matter where it
Speaker 1: comes from if it serves as an important component in
Speaker 1: all of the you know, chemicals that drive the industrial
Speaker 1: world and also you know war itself, so war over
Speaker 1: war stuff that makes sense, even though it's just the
Speaker 1: white stuff you know that ends up on your car.
Speaker 1: It's gross, but it's it's it's an important commodity. And
Speaker 1: Bolivia found that out the hard way when they were
Speaker 1: robbed of a lovely stretch of coastline. Um that that
Speaker 1: rightfully belonged to them, but um, they were outclassed in
Speaker 1: war and it was taken from them, and it was
Speaker 1: what's the status of that situation today, I imagine, I
Speaker 1: mean there's probably still you know more about South American
Speaker 1: diplomacy and um, you know, affairs than I do, Ben,
Speaker 1: and there's still tension between these nations, right well, there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's always gonna be a some amount of tension between
Speaker 1: nations over various things. But that nineteen oh four treaty,
Speaker 1: as far as I know, made a permanent the um
Speaker 1: one you mentioned earlier. Still, this gives us an opportunity
Speaker 1: to mention something that is not pleasant but is important.
Speaker 1: It's a phenomenon known as the resource curse. Some of
Speaker 1: the most resource rich areas and countries in the world
Speaker 1: are struggling under crippling inequality because they have been, you know,
Speaker 1: victimized through one international conflict or another, such that private
Speaker 1: companies and other countries can extract whatever valuable things they have.
Speaker 1: And the past really the past. There's a conversation, of course,
Speaker 1: but the past also sets important precedents. And recently Olivia
Speaker 1: has been learning about another resource immensely valuable to the
Speaker 1: modern world that is in its possession, and it's been
Speaker 1: trying to avoid being exploited in that regard. Bolivia, as
Speaker 1: we record today, has about a quarter of the world's
Speaker 1: known supply of lithium. Olivia, by the way, it's not
Speaker 1: a huge nation in terms of population. It's about twelve
Speaker 1: million people, and multiple foreign companies are trying to get
Speaker 1: lithium projects going there, because you guys know, lithiums like
Speaker 1: a rare earth metal. It's used in tons of electronic applications.
Speaker 1: So we're going to see what happens. But I would
Speaker 1: also not to be too conspiratorial. That's for stuff they
Speaker 1: don't want you to know. I would also keep an
Speaker 1: eye on any conflicts in Bolivia in the near future
Speaker 1: and checked to see whether or not they're related to
Speaker 1: mining rights. Absolutely, it's often something very much at play
Speaker 1: in these kind of situations. So on that note, we
Speaker 1: will leave you for today. Thanks to new researcher Jeff
Speaker 1: to super producer Max Williams. Alex Williams composed this banging track,
Speaker 1: thanks also, of course to Christopher Haciotas, thanks to Eve's
Speaker 1: Jeff co. Thanks to uh yeah, our brand new super
Speaker 1: research associate Jeff Bartlett. Will have to have him on
Speaker 1: the show soon and we'll introduce you to our second,
Speaker 1: brand new, straight out the box super research associate, one
Speaker 1: and only, Zach Williams later this next episode, so tune
Speaker 1: in in the meantime. I guess what we can take
Speaker 1: away from this is that the weirdest things and maybe
Speaker 1: the most insignificant seeming things can lead to great and
Speaker 1: sometimes violent change. No truer where it's were ever spoken.
Speaker 1: See you next time, folux M. For more podcasts from
Speaker 1: My Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.