Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is Talk Easy. I'm Sanfraco, so welcome to
Speaker 1: the show today. I'm joined by Janisa Bravo and Joy McMillan.
Speaker 1: Jenisa is the director of the new film Zola and Joy,
Speaker 1: which is the editor of that film, based on the
Speaker 1: viral Twitter thread by Asia King, it tells the real
Speaker 1: life story of a Detroit waitress slash part times tripper
Speaker 1: who travels to Tampa to dance, or at least that's
Speaker 1: why she believes she's going to Florida. Upon arrival, the
Speaker 1: plan to dance and make money goes awry. Here's a
Speaker 1: clip from the trailer. Hey, last month, I went dancing
Speaker 1: at this cute spot in Florida where my roommate's girl
Speaker 1: made like five g's a night. Because we just made
Speaker 1: yesterday and you already trying to take her trips together.
Speaker 1: Be ready by two. You want to hear a story
Speaker 1: about how me and this bitch fell out. It's kind
Speaker 1: of long, but it's felicituspen decided this is where you
Speaker 1: came here for school. It looks like I came for this.
Speaker 1: I should probably you. I don't funk with you no more.
Speaker 1: I ain't do nothing wrong. Starring Taylor Page, Riley Keo,
Speaker 1: Coleman Domingo, and others. Zola has been in theaters for
Speaker 1: nearly a month now. It's also just been made available
Speaker 1: on vod wherever you rent your movies from home. I
Speaker 1: am admittedly biased on the subject, as you'll hear in
Speaker 1: this episode, but I've seen a lot of people online
Speaker 1: say something like this feels like the return of movies,
Speaker 1: and not only the return of movies, but movie theaters.
Speaker 1: Sitting in that dark room next to strangers, you couldn't
Speaker 1: ask for a better return than Zola. It's a singular
Speaker 1: piece of filmmaking. It captures both the chaos of this
Speaker 1: harrowing story and it's frenetic retelling via Twitter thread. It's
Speaker 1: at once of the Internet and about the Internet. It's
Speaker 1: funny and painful in the way the best dark comedies
Speaker 1: are as you realize mid laugh that what you're finding
Speaker 1: humorous is maybe not so funny at all. But if
Speaker 1: you're looking for a dissection of the film and its politics,
Speaker 1: especially the very real racial dynamics at play, you have
Speaker 1: to search elsewhere. What I wanted to do with Jenisa
Speaker 1: and Joy was to offer a kind of director's commentary
Speaker 1: of how they made this film a window into their
Speaker 1: creative process. We do our best to not spoil the
Speaker 1: movie for you as we unpack some of the more
Speaker 1: discussed scenes in the picture. A sex montage, a GoPro
Speaker 1: rendition of Hannah Montana, the Strip Club, dressing room prayer
Speaker 1: by T. S. Madison. Even if you haven't seen Zola, though,
Speaker 1: I think you'll enjoy this talk. There's a lot in
Speaker 1: this conversation about creativity and collaboration. This is jenixa Enjoy's
Speaker 1: third film, after Man, Rots from the Head and Lemon,
Speaker 1: both of which you ought to see if you haven't,
Speaker 1: and ultimately, as you'll here, this is a conversation amongst
Speaker 1: family exploring how they make the art they make. To
Speaker 1: do this, we sat around Janis's dining room table this
Speaker 1: past week trying to just not make fun of each
Speaker 1: other for an hour on microphones. That's easier said than
Speaker 1: done when we're all in a room together, but sometimes
Speaker 1: in pockets we succeeded and the result is a really,
Speaker 1: I think special episode. I hope you enjoy listening to
Speaker 1: it as much as we did having it. Now Here
Speaker 1: is Jennick's a bravo enjoy McMillan, Joy, Jenisa Sam. Last
Speaker 1: time you guys were on a podcast, you couldn't talk
Speaker 1: about the movie. It was summer of twenty twenty, where
Speaker 1: a year removed from that, the film is out. How
Speaker 1: are you both feeling lighter? I was going to say late.
Speaker 1: It's so many things. It's kind of it's not exactly
Speaker 1: hard to put into words, but it isn't one thing.
Speaker 1: Lighter is the easiest and the simplest. There's also buoyant.
Speaker 1: I feel it's not a chapter close as much as
Speaker 1: it is a beginning. I like or love the feeling
Speaker 1: that it doesn't belong to me anymore now that now
Speaker 1: it belongs to many. You're tired of it, You need
Speaker 1: to let go. No, I wasn't tired of it. But
Speaker 1: that is the life cycle of making that kind of art, right,
Speaker 1: Making a film, Making a television show is making a
Speaker 1: short film. A film, by the way, is also a
Speaker 1: short film. So I thought I would really make that
Speaker 1: clear there is the life cycle is such that last
Speaker 1: stage is that it now gets to leave your body.
Speaker 1: And so I feel there was and I feel we
Speaker 1: talked about this when we were on the twenty four
Speaker 1: podcasts that I felt very much like I was in
Speaker 1: this kind of ellipsis right. It's it's something like quicksand
Speaker 1: it's something like having a sense of your your feet
Speaker 1: but not having the right to rain to make it through.
Speaker 1: How do you feel? The thing that I am so
Speaker 1: happy to see an experience is just the variety of
Speaker 1: people who are finding such pleasure in watching Zola. The
Speaker 1: audiences have been so varied, and from young to old,
Speaker 1: not too young, but oh yea well. I saw on
Speaker 1: Twitter someone said that was a toddler one wandered into
Speaker 1: Zola and the audience collectively gas and was they meant
Speaker 1: to be at Boss Baby two? That was a real
Speaker 1: era Boss Baby two was right next to them. That's
Speaker 1: what happened. I can't imagine being the parents being like, wait,
Speaker 1: where are we? I met a fourteen year old actually
Speaker 1: at one of our screenings who had come to the
Speaker 1: film with his mother and it was their second time
Speaker 1: watching it, and his mom said, we're gonna go watch
Speaker 1: it again tomorrow, and I narrowly shot myself. First of all,
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe how young he was, and he was
Speaker 1: really he was just super special. And he'd read about
Speaker 1: the movie last year when it was at Sundance and
Speaker 1: said he'd been following it and once it came out,
Speaker 1: he said, I had to be there and loved it. No,
Speaker 1: that's true. He's like fourteen or fifteen, young white kid
Speaker 1: with his mom. How did they process the sex montage?
Speaker 1: That's what I just thought. It was so amazing to
Speaker 1: me that he had seen this movie more than once
Speaker 1: and with his mother, And then his mother said we're
Speaker 1: going back, and I just want I was like, I
Speaker 1: have so many questions, and mainly you're cool. Like what
Speaker 1: my parents wouldn't actively take me to that movie one time,
Speaker 1: and while we were in it that first time, I
Speaker 1: would be hearing a lot of mumm mmmmmmmmmmm, and that
Speaker 1: car ride home would be hard because they would be like,
Speaker 1: how did we get here? What do you look in
Speaker 1: at that brought us here? That's my parents' accent. Were
Speaker 1: you told your mom at the premiere all the parts
Speaker 1: that she didn't like from my fault? And I continued
Speaker 1: that dialogue the next day when I saw them, and
Speaker 1: then your mom was like, so you're that you complained? Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: She knew who the trouble was. You're the trouble. Anything
Speaker 1: that's wrong with the movie is Joy or A twenty
Speaker 1: four and anything that's good about the movie, that's just me.
Speaker 1: That's where I could shine you guys, that's where I
Speaker 1: was allowed to shine. I jest, I jest, That's just
Speaker 1: that's what I have to say to my parents because
Speaker 1: there are things that definitely stress them out and I
Speaker 1: couldn't boldly say, well, that's me. We have a question
Speaker 1: here from at very t B. She says, does Joy
Speaker 1: ever get really upset when Janisa teases or pranks her?
Speaker 1: If so, does Jane's care? Joy? Why do you look scared?
Speaker 1: Where'd that question come from? Because yesterday I wrote on
Speaker 1: that Instagram where did that question came? Joy? The face
Speaker 1: you were making while Sam was asking that you were
Speaker 1: just like that is not where this is supposed to go.
Speaker 1: This is not what I signed up for. What the
Speaker 1: fuck is this? I posted on Instagram that we were
Speaker 1: going to be doing Joy. I'm gonna need you to
Speaker 1: buy into this podcast real quick. Joy's like, I'm professional,
Speaker 1: i am light, I'm small, and I can't and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I've known you for a few years and you're none
Speaker 1: of those things. So we're gonna need you to step up.
Speaker 1: I agree, with that no, because they're actually really good pranks.
Speaker 1: And it's funny because some people were like, how do
Speaker 1: you not know she's recording you? But Jennisa has a
Speaker 1: really good like so many times with master, are you
Speaker 1: recording me? And she's like, no, I'm texting, But she
Speaker 1: has a really good face when you're recording me that
Speaker 1: looks like you're just doing something on your phone. So
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't let the people who've questioned how intelligent
Speaker 1: I am to the other thing is I guess I'm
Speaker 1: always on my phone, and so if the phone is
Speaker 1: attached to my hand, it doesn't necessarily mean I'm recording,
Speaker 1: because maybe most of the time I'm not. But I
Speaker 1: actually think most of the time I was. You are
Speaker 1: very funny and your laugh is really good and poking
Speaker 1: fun with you and at you and like literally farting
Speaker 1: and being like doy do you smell Matt, and just
Speaker 1: like seeing your reaction. Is it just I didn't grow
Speaker 1: up with sisters or brothers, and so I really feel
Speaker 1: like when we're working together, I feel very much in
Speaker 1: family with you, and I feel like you're my sister.
Speaker 1: I'm the older sister. Clearly, Oh definitely Janet's the middle sister.
Speaker 1: Janet's my dog. You're the youngest. I do think you're
Speaker 1: always on your phone. I think she's Ryan. Thanks Sam,
Speaker 1: but you'll see why I'm bringing this up. Okay. I
Speaker 1: think it is part of your artwork. I think it's
Speaker 1: your Joel Meierwitz impression in some ways. And we have
Speaker 1: a question here from Meg Penny, who says, I remember
Speaker 1: you shooting mini movies via your Instagram stories while you're
Speaker 1: in Florida filming, and you captured it so well. I
Speaker 1: feel like there were moments in zol that was a
Speaker 1: direct extension of this, and you and your good eye.
Speaker 1: I love to document, and I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people love to document, especially in this moment, because we
Speaker 1: have such a direct access right. And for me, I
Speaker 1: think documenting in that way, I am obsessively photographing, obsessively recording.
Speaker 1: Most of it is just for myself, right, or most
Speaker 1: of it just exists on the phone for me to
Speaker 1: never even look at again. But I feel it's some
Speaker 1: version of being able to compile memories and time and place.
Speaker 1: I mean, leading up to the film's release, I went
Speaker 1: back and just did a Tampa search on my phone
Speaker 1: or Florida search on my phone and went through a
Speaker 1: couple thousand images that I had shot from the first
Speaker 1: time I got there to the last day that I
Speaker 1: was there, and it was beautiful. There was a lot
Speaker 1: that I didn't remember, and so it was great to
Speaker 1: be able to have this catalog or record. And when
Speaker 1: I say it's beautiful, I don't mean the images themselves
Speaker 1: or the content. I mean to have this direct catalog
Speaker 1: from my life that I can kind of pull from
Speaker 1: the bookshelf. Is very lucky to be able to have that,
Speaker 1: and also to look back on that moment warmly, because
Speaker 1: there are a lot of aspects of making the movie
Speaker 1: that we're not very warm, you know, or just really hard.
Speaker 1: With distance. We all tend to do some version of
Speaker 1: rewriting the narrative right of how an experience was, especially
Speaker 1: if the outcome is good. And I think the film's
Speaker 1: outcome so far is good and seems to be good,
Speaker 1: and I think it will continue to be good, and
Speaker 1: so a lot of the hard aspects of it just
Speaker 1: feel like it was worth it. Joy. At what point
Speaker 1: in the editing process did you feel like you had
Speaker 1: figured out the movie, that it was starting to work
Speaker 1: in a way that you could see it. Oh, there's
Speaker 1: so many good moments. But it's funny because it is
Speaker 1: one of the things that people probably ask me the
Speaker 1: most about is the sex montage. But I just remember
Speaker 1: when Jen Nixon was describing to me how she wanted
Speaker 1: the images to scroll, and in my mind being like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever really seen that before,
Speaker 1: and how are we going to do that, and just
Speaker 1: the coming together of not only like the sound design
Speaker 1: and you talking to Mika, I think it was all
Speaker 1: that jazz. The score that she had done before was
Speaker 1: a little more kind of like haunting, and it was
Speaker 1: like the juxposition of doing something that's I don't know
Speaker 1: how to describe sex work very I think people see
Speaker 1: sex work in a certain way, but the jexposition of
Speaker 1: it being a sex montage but laying it with music
Speaker 1: that had such an upbeat to it, it kind of
Speaker 1: really hit home. The very structured way that they're bringing
Speaker 1: them in, cleaning the bed, you know, picking off the peeves,
Speaker 1: and it was just it was kind of like it
Speaker 1: was work. I think the music we'd had before colored it,
Speaker 1: and you actually really encouraged it to change because I
Speaker 1: felt it wasn't exactly right, but also I didn't know
Speaker 1: how to describe what I felt was going to make
Speaker 1: that better. And in having them back and forth with you,
Speaker 1: I think All That Jazz is my number one favorite
Speaker 1: favorite movie and I gift myself watching the movie once
Speaker 1: I'm done working. I have to finish a job, and
Speaker 1: so I it was just like I just kept being like,
Speaker 1: when do I get to see All That Jazz again?
Speaker 1: I can't watch it until the film's done. And I
Speaker 1: think we were talking about it also, I felt like
Speaker 1: we looked at a lot of Fossey clips just sometimes
Speaker 1: when we were just hanging out, and I remembered as
Speaker 1: we were discussing it, I think we got to one
Speaker 1: of the things that I had loved in that piece,
Speaker 1: and I think it's a Vivaldi. I think it's Vivaldi.
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't remember. Maybe it's Right of Spring,
Speaker 1: But there is this piece that plays every time he
Speaker 1: has his morning routine, and it was that lightness, and
Speaker 1: I think what you were talking about is what it
Speaker 1: was before had this kind of color that colored the
Speaker 1: work and had a judgment and the lightness of the
Speaker 1: music or the airiness around it just gave it the
Speaker 1: room to be that it was work. Sex, work was work,
Speaker 1: and it was work that deserved value worthiness, and it
Speaker 1: was hard also, and that it didn't necessarily need to
Speaker 1: be painted in this dreary light. Yeah, exactly. I think
Speaker 1: that section is so specific and I think for a
Speaker 1: lot of people it's very memorable. And I think the
Speaker 1: handling of that section was done and such to me,
Speaker 1: such an inventive way of tying in the scroll that
Speaker 1: happens when you're on your phone bringing the music to
Speaker 1: a place I don't think a lot of people would
Speaker 1: have gotten to score wise. And then also the precision
Speaker 1: and how you know you and Ari arrived at a
Speaker 1: place of where to place the camera, what to show, Like,
Speaker 1: everything about that section is so nuanced, and I think
Speaker 1: it kind of is like a very specific section. It
Speaker 1: kind of explains the whole entire film. Everything was thought out. Everything,
Speaker 1: there's a specific reason for everything. I remember asking about
Speaker 1: the katy pool in the parking lot and being like
Speaker 1: was that there? And you're like, oh no, no, that
Speaker 1: was us production design. I think it's the reason why
Speaker 1: there's people going back multiple times to watch the film
Speaker 1: is like the intention behind everything is like it's a
Speaker 1: little gift, like tiny purse, you know, like there's so
Speaker 1: much I remember my sister Gian saying like, I have
Speaker 1: to watch it again because when you watch that first time,
Speaker 1: you're so kind of like in it, like what's going
Speaker 1: to happen? And then going back a second time, you
Speaker 1: now know how it's going to end, so now you
Speaker 1: have the freedom to appreciate the world. There's so much
Speaker 1: momentum the first time you watch it that I do
Speaker 1: think you need to see it again. And I wondered
Speaker 1: how much you were thinking about traveling through Florida looking
Speaker 1: for these locations and place you've never been to, trying
Speaker 1: to keep all that you had written before, and we're
Speaker 1: thinking about I remember before you were talking about how
Speaker 1: much you wanted this to be. I think the line
Speaker 1: was part Lynchian, part Cardi B. I think it was
Speaker 1: blue velvet and meets Bodac yellow. Yes, you're laughing at
Speaker 1: it now. I'm laughing at it because it's one of
Speaker 1: those things our industry has, the it's this meets this,
Speaker 1: It's Sister Act two meets Ghostbusters, you know, I mean
Speaker 1: it's not that, but you know, like there there are
Speaker 1: these odd combinations of like it's Clueless meets Don't Be
Speaker 1: a Menace? You know, it was Black Swan meets Moonlight,
Speaker 1: and I was like, is it? But actually those but
Speaker 1: those are not too those aren't bad ones. Those are
Speaker 1: actually it's the ones where it's like it's girls trip
Speaker 1: meets the Piano and you're like, but why why is
Speaker 1: it meeting those? And how come? And so I understood
Speaker 1: that that is this. While I don't necessarily like that thing,
Speaker 1: I feel it moves people ten steps forward right and
Speaker 1: understanding where you are. And so like I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: how do I like this? How can I like this thing?
Speaker 1: And so it's like blue velvet love, Bodak yellow great,
Speaker 1: you know, and it felt like, okay, so we're at
Speaker 1: the intersect of where both of those things meet. And
Speaker 1: I think that became very clear to people, like they
Speaker 1: knew what that meant. They were like, okay, so it's
Speaker 1: gonna be corty and then it's gonna be weird. Got it,
Speaker 1: Like I understood, But I think that saying that, and
Speaker 1: at the very beginning when I talked about the movie,
Speaker 1: when I would say that, you know, I stopped saying
Speaker 1: that pretty quickly where I was like, please can I
Speaker 1: not say that anymore? I remember asking, so I think
Speaker 1: the publicist is at A twenty four. I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say that no more. I don't
Speaker 1: like it, but I'm glad I could bring it back.
Speaker 1: And I'm so glad that today, years in to the process,
Speaker 1: we could finally come back to where bodek yellow and
Speaker 1: blue velvet meat. But I think from the outside someone
Speaker 1: might think it's like high low, and it's not high low.
Speaker 1: To me. It's also speaking to my own taste, right
Speaker 1: that I am drawn and pulled by someone like Lynch's work,
Speaker 1: and equally drawn and pulled by the presence and energy
Speaker 1: of Cardi b And so it's like, that is what
Speaker 1: I'm hoping to bring here. At what point in the
Speaker 1: edit did you start to think, Oh, I kind of
Speaker 1: like this movie. So Joyce is the sex montage. I
Speaker 1: think for me it's the prayer and it's also Hannah Montana.
Speaker 1: Those two pieces come together rather quickly. They were still
Speaker 1: tinkering to be done, And if I had to pick
Speaker 1: a third, I would also say it's the second time
Speaker 1: Tailor dances, which is really the first time she dances,
Speaker 1: because it's an arc of the dance, and three of
Speaker 1: those pieces come together pretty early. Like even if we
Speaker 1: were to go look at our first cut of the movie,
Speaker 1: the first cut that we shared with the producers, I
Speaker 1: feel like those while they got significantly tighter and stronger,
Speaker 1: the bones of who they are are still are in
Speaker 1: that original cut. I think what was happening is I thought,
Speaker 1: I know that these three moments are really strong, and
Speaker 1: if the movie is like trash everywhere else, I know
Speaker 1: there are three moments that are good. At the very least,
Speaker 1: we have this right Like, at the very least, there
Speaker 1: are these three scenes. Oh and a piss scene, right like.
Speaker 1: I felt the strongest about the piss scene. I was like,
Speaker 1: I don't care what nobody says. This piss scene is it?
Speaker 1: No one has done this scene ever, And I know
Speaker 1: I can confidently say no person has used urine to
Speaker 1: discuss racial politics and women ever. I think people have
Speaker 1: had questions about that because so there's a camera on
Speaker 1: top of two bathroom stalls. Zola at to Stephanie, Stephanie
Speaker 1: back to Zola, Zola leaves the bathroom, the camera goes
Speaker 1: back to Stephanie, Stephanie leaves, and the pee is I
Speaker 1: don't even know how you describe that color mustard mustard yellow,
Speaker 1: old gold yellow? What color would you call that a mustarding?
Speaker 1: Amber or yellow? Yeah, people have laughed at that scene.
Speaker 1: I don't always know if they know why they're laughing. Well,
Speaker 1: I think they're probably a multitude of reasons why they're laughing, right.
Speaker 1: I don't necessarily want to dissect aspects of the movie. Meaning.
Speaker 1: It's why I don't seek out reviews unless I really
Speaker 1: love something and I want to hear how somebody's written
Speaker 1: about it, because I don't want someone to tell me
Speaker 1: what I'm supposed to see. I don't want to be
Speaker 1: given a set of rules on how to process right
Speaker 1: because I think that like the best thing about any movie,
Speaker 1: and this movie is that someone walks away from it
Speaker 1: being able to hold on to some aspect of it,
Speaker 1: and so I don't want them to have a different
Speaker 1: relationship to it. What I will say about it is
Speaker 1: that I think that I can confidently say I feel
Speaker 1: that there are black women who watch that scene and
Speaker 1: have a certain kind of reaction, as there are probably
Speaker 1: white women that watch that scene and have a certain
Speaker 1: kind of reaction. That I can confidently say without coloring
Speaker 1: too much around what it's supposed to mean or feel like.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? It sounds like you were getting
Speaker 1: into politics that I'm actually running in eight years, and
Speaker 1: so I'm getting myself Reddie. No, it says so much
Speaker 1: about the character that she doesn't flush, that she's behindrated.
Speaker 1: She said on the seat, she doesn't lift her ass
Speaker 1: above it. My mom would be very disappointed. It's how
Speaker 1: I was reared. I mean, you have so many sisters. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's no way. I am certain your mother taught you
Speaker 1: that when you go into a stall, you hold your
Speaker 1: ass above it. That's why I have such good calf
Speaker 1: muscles exactly. I mean my calf muscles, My calf and
Speaker 1: thyme muscles are so good. Like I can literally piss anywhere.
Speaker 1: I'm like, where am I pissing? Got it? I'm fine?
Speaker 1: Will there be a trickle on my ankles? Possibly? But
Speaker 1: am I going to be able to hold myself up? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Because I've We've been doing it since we were children.
Speaker 1: Since you were a little kid out with your mother
Speaker 1: and you had to piss and your mom was pissed
Speaker 1: at you. You found yourself in a bathroom where she
Speaker 1: was like, hold yourself up. I remember my mom, like
Speaker 1: even holding my elbows, where I was like, I'm giving
Speaker 1: in I can't. I thought that that's how everyone was raised.
Speaker 1: You know, there is this when you grow up in
Speaker 1: the in a certain kind of bubble, in the bubble,
Speaker 1: like your family's bubble. It's really not until you leave,
Speaker 1: and for some of us that's college, where we finally
Speaker 1: leave home, that you then learn that there are other
Speaker 1: people that do things differently. I think I assumed that
Speaker 1: everyone went to the bathroom that way. I'd never had
Speaker 1: to consider if people had not gone to the bathroom
Speaker 1: this way. And it's not until I was at a
Speaker 1: bar in the East Village with a fake id, having
Speaker 1: drunk too many Long Island iced teas, that I went
Speaker 1: into a bathroom stall with two white girlfriends from theater school.
Speaker 1: And I pissed first, as I was taught to. And
Speaker 1: then I saw one of them sit on the toilet
Speaker 1: and I was aghast, a gast, I mean, like mouth
Speaker 1: a gape, like well, but what is this? And then
Speaker 1: the second one went and she did the same thing.
Speaker 1: At least the second one had been sitting on the
Speaker 1: other one's ass, but the first one, I was like, goodness,
Speaker 1: but how what disease is here and then but then
Speaker 1: at that moment at eighteen, I think, oh, do then
Speaker 1: all white people do this? Am I a part of
Speaker 1: black people? And our black people like this and white
Speaker 1: people like that? And then I saw other white women
Speaker 1: do that, and it was just like, Oh, which is
Speaker 1: how you're weird? It is how you're wed? Yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: what else you got for me? I have a lot
Speaker 1: for you. I think the other thing you we're going
Speaker 1: to get to was the first time we saw because
Speaker 1: the question of like when do you feel it's in
Speaker 1: sync then is speaking to when do you feel it's not?
Speaker 1: And the first time. So I'm shooting in Tampa, Florida,
Speaker 1: and Enjoy is in Los Angeles getting footage, and the
Speaker 1: contract that we are in says that when I come
Speaker 1: back to LA there's going to be a rough cut
Speaker 1: of the movie to watch, and your assistant at the
Speaker 1: time has made a DVD for me, which she drops
Speaker 1: off I think in the mailbox of my house, and
Speaker 1: I watch it. It doesn't go all the way to
Speaker 1: the end of the movie. It like ends at this
Speaker 1: part of the film. In case anyone's listening and hasn't
Speaker 1: watched it, I don't need to say. But and somewhere
Speaker 1: in the third act of the movie, probably like fifteen
Speaker 1: to twenty minutes before the film's done, the DVD just
Speaker 1: stops and watching this is really hard. It is really hard,
Speaker 1: And you've given me no preface. Joy's given me no preface.
Speaker 1: It's actually her fault. Nothing she has said, no like hey,
Speaker 1: girl is going to be like this, or like, don't worry,
Speaker 1: we got it. Joy's like, Hi, here's the movie. Any question, Joy,
Speaker 1: did you think about giving her a preface before she
Speaker 1: watched the assembly cut? Um, do you want to tough
Speaker 1: me up? Well? Definitely, But I feel like as an editor,
Speaker 1: there's really no preparation you can give it a director
Speaker 1: before they watch that rough cut. Is There's a reason
Speaker 1: why it's called a rough cut. It's rough. And I
Speaker 1: feel like if I had said anything, I feel like
Speaker 1: you would have been an even higher alert than you were.
Speaker 1: I was just like, yeah, DVD's coming, best of luck
Speaker 1: till Yeah. It's like it's a few days before Christmas. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is my this is my first Christmas not married.
Speaker 1: I've been with my ex partner Brett for almost a decade,
Speaker 1: so it's my first Christmas not married. I've been in
Speaker 1: Florida for a few months. All I'm saying is it
Speaker 1: was real dark work and lonely. And then I watched
Speaker 1: it and I felt terrible. I felt really horrible. I
Speaker 1: felt like, well, yep, they should have called it and
Speaker 1: someone should come into my house and shoot me in
Speaker 1: the fucking head. Stat because it's done. And Sam, who
Speaker 1: we are doing this podcast with, aside from Joy and myself,
Speaker 1: has seen the movie. Probably it would be the third
Speaker 1: person to have watched the movie the most. And I
Speaker 1: think you saw it soon after. I think so. I
Speaker 1: think when I get the second DVD, the second DVD
Speaker 1: which now has that now as the end of the movie,
Speaker 1: I asked you to watch it with me. My memory
Speaker 1: and you'll clear it up. But my memory is that
Speaker 1: I'm feeling really bad and I think you say something
Speaker 1: to me like, well, it's not the best movie you've
Speaker 1: ever made. That's not exactly what I said, And that's
Speaker 1: all I am recalling. And look, it's possible that that's
Speaker 1: not even what he said, but that's what I remember.
Speaker 1: What I remember is feeling bad in him saying it's
Speaker 1: not the best movie you've ever made. What I said
Speaker 1: was what you said was you had a good run.
Speaker 1: You should retire. I think theaters for you. You went
Speaker 1: to theater school, theater, this is the pivot, You've done
Speaker 1: great work. What did you say? You watched the assembly
Speaker 1: cut and it was the second time you saw it,
Speaker 1: I guess, and at the end of it you felt
Speaker 1: like and said, I really wanted to make a great
Speaker 1: film and this is just not it. And I don't
Speaker 1: know if that was fair to yourself. I think Joy's right.
Speaker 1: Anyone who's watched an assembly cut anything they've made, whether
Speaker 1: it's a short music video, it doesn't matter what it is.
Speaker 1: It's painful and it's not particularly good, and it seems
Speaker 1: to no longer have all the intentions and thoughts and
Speaker 1: ideas that you had previously had going into it, and
Speaker 1: it feels lonely, and you thought, this is not going
Speaker 1: to be a great film. And I think what I
Speaker 1: said was that I was right, that it's a piece
Speaker 1: of shit and you ought to retire. I think what
Speaker 1: I said was, I do think you can make a
Speaker 1: better movie, but I think there's a lot of greatness
Speaker 1: in here. And I have a feeling at the end
Speaker 1: of this editing process you'll feel a little bit differently
Speaker 1: about the movie, and I think that's still true. I
Speaker 1: think it's one hundred percent true. I should I not
Speaker 1: have said that. Absolutely, Yeah, you shouldn't have said that,
Speaker 1: because then I was like, I have a better movie
Speaker 1: in me. It's not this. It's not wrong, and I
Speaker 1: do feel that way, and I am grateful that I
Speaker 1: feel that way. I should have lied. No, No, you
Speaker 1: shouldn't have, because I wouldn't have believed then I would
Speaker 1: have held it against you that you thought it was
Speaker 1: good and been like, what kind of idiot is this? Well,
Speaker 1: you held it against me anyway. Of course, it's hard
Speaker 1: for me to watch the movie and not still want
Speaker 1: to change things. Right, Joy's like, please now, I think
Speaker 1: I said to you after our New York screening. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh, they're cool things you want to change
Speaker 1: and you were like you just laughed at me, and
Speaker 1: we're like, oh God, someone helps. She laughed at you
Speaker 1: and said, so I'm going to Italy. She wanted to
Speaker 1: get from it. She was like, girl, by h there
Speaker 1: are aspects of it that I feel. It's not only
Speaker 1: exactly what I meant, it's better than what I meant,
Speaker 1: like the prayer and Hannah Montana and that dance where
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, the dance, I would probably I wish
Speaker 1: we had more time to shoot. I just like there
Speaker 1: was a couple other pieces of coverage that I would like, right,
Speaker 1: but that I feel like, this is really what I
Speaker 1: mean for this movie to be. And I hope that
Speaker 1: it's always like that, and I think the moment that
Speaker 1: it is and what I mean by it's always like that.
Speaker 1: I hope that I am always able to look at
Speaker 1: the work and go I could do better, or I
Speaker 1: could do more, or there's better because there's there's more
Speaker 1: to reach to, right Like, I think if I've already ascended,
Speaker 1: then there's plateau. Right If you've already ascended, then what's next?
Speaker 1: Then I think I would need to pivot. I can't
Speaker 1: imagine that there'll be a moment where it feels like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is exactly it. I don't know that that is
Speaker 1: going to be there because I also think my brain
Speaker 1: is like rotted, so I don't know that I'll get
Speaker 1: that by rotten, broken, damaged, malformed. I'll say, as an editor,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes in the process people have amnesia. But
Speaker 1: as an editor, I feel like our memories are very
Speaker 1: Jenisa hated when I would pull up notes from Oh oh,
Speaker 1: I can't believe you're gonna do that. I knew there
Speaker 1: was nothing that I could tell Jenisa when I gave
Speaker 1: her that rough cut that was gonna put her at
Speaker 1: ease because in her mind, we were starting from scratch.
Speaker 1: But I remember Lemon, you know, I remember that whole process,
Speaker 1: And even though it was a rough cut, I was
Speaker 1: never worried about Zola. There are films I work on
Speaker 1: ramas like this is probably as good as it's ever
Speaker 1: gonna be with Zola. I'm like, this is just a blueprint,
Speaker 1: Like we have so much work to do, but it's
Speaker 1: gonna be fun. Let's go into this. Because after about
Speaker 1: a month of editing at a studio here in Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: you go to Janis's house. Yeah, if you were in
Speaker 1: like a cold, dingy room on off Hollywood and near Gower,
Speaker 1: near Gower, and you would hear like rats running above,
Speaker 1: like their little pit or patter of their feet, Like
Speaker 1: I really want to know what that was. It felt
Speaker 1: like rats running a course. It sounds like someone was
Speaker 1: running a course, and it also found sounded like a
Speaker 1: sound effect. And four weeks into that, I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: so we have to leave here because Joy and go
Speaker 1: make is she gonna jump out of this third floor window.
Speaker 1: She's jumping onto the sidewalk. It was the carpet for me,
Speaker 1: and I was just like every day I was like,
Speaker 1: who died here? So to get away from the carpet
Speaker 1: and for you to not kill yourself, you move into
Speaker 1: Jennis's spare room inside your house over in West Hollywood.
Speaker 1: What used to be your house the game mash, you
Speaker 1: know like mansion, apartment, shack house, I would say it
Speaker 1: was mansion. We moved into my mansion. I wasn't going
Speaker 1: to play yeah. I mean she was in the spare
Speaker 1: room above the garage, looking at the pool which was
Speaker 1: in the mountains. There were definite garage and there was
Speaker 1: a garage near us. For sure. It was the darkest
Speaker 1: room in my house. It was very much a spare
Speaker 1: room in my house that before Joy had moved in.
Speaker 1: Was like it was supposed to be a guest room
Speaker 1: that she had never arrived, like it would just it
Speaker 1: was like a bed that had a box on it.
Speaker 1: It was like we really spruced it up to make
Speaker 1: it this edit space for us, and it became what
Speaker 1: I mean, we quarantined before everyone else did write a
Speaker 1: version of a quarantine together. One of my favorite things
Speaker 1: about working with you is we'll be in a scene
Speaker 1: and I'll have an idea and it's an idea that
Speaker 1: perhaps I have had before, but I don't remember that
Speaker 1: I've had it before. We've moved into my house in February,
Speaker 1: and so let's say it's May. So we're Munson and
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I'm just wondering if we could cut year,
Speaker 1: and Joys like we already did that, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: I don't think so, and she's like, no, we did.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, well, why don't we try it?
Speaker 1: And then she starts to go through these notepads and
Speaker 1: I'm like, why why you got to go through the notepads?
Speaker 1: Just make the cut, and she's like no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: She's like she's like, I'm gonna make the cut, but
Speaker 1: I want you to see and I'm just like and
Speaker 1: the whole time, I'm sort of betting that she's not
Speaker 1: gonna find it. And she will go through pads and
Speaker 1: pads and I'll watch the back of her body as
Speaker 1: she goes through pads for minutes and minutes and it's
Speaker 1: making me crazy and angry and I want to tackle her,
Speaker 1: and she'll be like, on match though, that's right, March though.
Speaker 1: Hold on, and she'll find the same note, sometimes at
Speaker 1: the same time, the same time code, and I'll be
Speaker 1: like this bitch, and she'll be like, so we could
Speaker 1: try it and then and then I'll be like, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's try it again, because maybe on March I was
Speaker 1: somewhere else mentally, and she'll try and I'll be like, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: that's still not good. That is not working. And then
Speaker 1: she'll like, got it. Hold on, let me write it
Speaker 1: down so that she can go back to March third.
Speaker 1: And also this moment, she just has this vast catalog
Speaker 1: of every cut that has happened in the movie. And
Speaker 1: it makes sense because while I feel tethered to the hole,
Speaker 1: she is tethered to the cut in a way that
Speaker 1: I am not. She just is. She has seen, she
Speaker 1: has actually seen every inch of the movie, and I haven't.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen every inch of the footage. I just
Speaker 1: remember Nickson promising to watch his hand of Montana dailies,
Speaker 1: and to this day, she still promises to watch. This
Speaker 1: is everyone in the car driving to Florida using a
Speaker 1: GoPro kind of Oh no, I just couldn't. I would.
Speaker 1: I really tried, and it made me feel really ill,
Speaker 1: and so I'd get thirty seconds in and there's so
Speaker 1: many times where I'd be like, I'm gonna watch it
Speaker 1: this weekend. I promise you see you come Monday, A
Speaker 1: La seen it, Ala, seen the whole thing. That'd be like, Joy,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry I didn't. I couldn't. You needed a
Speaker 1: drama man, You'd like, look, Joy, I promise, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: gonna watch it. I'm gonna look at these dailies. But
Speaker 1: I'm just wondering, is there a shot of But that's
Speaker 1: kind of what you're speaking to, Joy, is that directors
Speaker 1: have a kind of amnesia and you remember everything everything.
Speaker 1: So you're quarantining in your spare room editing this movie.
Speaker 1: Walk us through the notes process. Between the two of you,
Speaker 1: they were a plenty just kidding. She's right, you're not kidding. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I should say I'm kidding. Um No, but I the
Speaker 1: thing that I love about working with Jannis is how
Speaker 1: thorough she is. And I feel like that's why we
Speaker 1: work so well together, is that I'm never ever questioning
Speaker 1: where the note is or how she feels about it.
Speaker 1: The only thing that I would sometimes question is like,
Speaker 1: how do you want me to execute a note that
Speaker 1: just has time code and yuck? Next to walk us
Speaker 1: through that, so you would get a time code that
Speaker 1: did I really just write yuck. One of my joys
Speaker 1: was to One of my joys for joy was actually
Speaker 1: to be able to make her laugh in the notes,
Speaker 1: because I knew that there was a degree of sure,
Speaker 1: I'm thorough, but I also knew there was a degree
Speaker 1: of mania and that I also knew that I was
Speaker 1: driving her crazy. And so I was like, but if
Speaker 1: I can make her laugh, if she's alone in a
Speaker 1: room laughing, then it's fine. And sometimes I, I mean,
Speaker 1: I was almost always there, so I could hear her
Speaker 1: alone just laughing, and I was like, I did it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So she would write notes back to my notes that
Speaker 1: were not necessarily for me to see, that they were
Speaker 1: just for her an editor. Yeah. And I once got
Speaker 1: really close to her desk and I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: are you talking to me on paper? But I never
Speaker 1: see the And she then told me she always wrote
Speaker 1: back to my notes, So like if I wrote yuck,
Speaker 1: or I don't like this. She'd be like, well good luck,
Speaker 1: or or there would be like why don't you watch
Speaker 1: these dailies literally you find the cut literally And I
Speaker 1: was like, excused, I mean I read one of those
Speaker 1: months because because you were complaining about some sean she said,
Speaker 1: well you shot this, maybe talk to your DP. It
Speaker 1: was just like stuff like that, and I was like,
Speaker 1: it was great. I think that's how she was getting
Speaker 1: out her sort of frustration. Because some of them I
Speaker 1: want to remember because like when we go over like
Speaker 1: what I did and what I didn't do, I want
Speaker 1: to be like, oh, you know, we look for this shot,
Speaker 1: this was the one that you liked the best. I
Speaker 1: can show you this, I'll take, but I just remember,
Speaker 1: like hair replacement wasn't right, you know, X, Y and Z,
Speaker 1: And then she'll see it and be like, oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's stick with that shot. So some of those notes
Speaker 1: are to remind me to let her know we go
Speaker 1: back through it, and some of them just made me laugh.
Speaker 1: Any of them are like we already did that. She
Speaker 1: tried a lot of things you had already asked her.
Speaker 1: So much of editing is repetition. It is just so
Speaker 1: much of it is repetition. And as good as I
Speaker 1: think I am of keeping this, really, I think I
Speaker 1: have a really good library of everything we've done, I
Speaker 1: don't My relationship with Joy is just one part of
Speaker 1: making the film. She is a big part of that
Speaker 1: post piece for me, there are so many other people
Speaker 1: that I'm working with. Even though I feel our relationship
Speaker 1: is seventy to eighty percent of that post there are
Speaker 1: twenty percent of other relationships to also manage within it
Speaker 1: that allow us to move forward, And so I get
Speaker 1: it wrong sometimes. But I also was say, like our
Speaker 1: repetition of trying stuff and never saying no to trying
Speaker 1: stuff is like, I think that's where we got so
Speaker 1: many great moments, like the repetition of clean your butt.
Speaker 1: You know, we'd tried it, we'd taken it out, and
Speaker 1: then we went back to it, and we found that,
Speaker 1: like symmetry of win, it should come back in and yes,
Speaker 1: Stephanie should say it one more time. And I think
Speaker 1: all of that comes from figuring out the language of
Speaker 1: the movie and then plying it across the board. The
Speaker 1: basketball sequence of the two kids dribbling above the hotel,
Speaker 1: the strange Dick montage that's cut with sort of discordinatet
Speaker 1: music that doesn't match, not going to get into it.
Speaker 1: There's so many of these things that speaks to your
Speaker 1: I think inherent nature as a drama DIRG that you've
Speaker 1: brought into this movie, and then the detailed approach you take.
Speaker 1: Nothing in this film is an accident. And that's why
Speaker 1: I think Joy, even through your sort of harassment, she's
Speaker 1: not gonna say it. I'm gonna say it for her.
Speaker 1: That's why she's stuck with it. I think that's why
Speaker 1: she stuck with it is that there was always an
Speaker 1: idea and a purpose and a destination you had in mind.
Speaker 1: Whenever I work with Jannison, whenever I work with Barry,
Speaker 1: it's not just visual, it's also sonically telling a story.
Speaker 1: And so much of that we had to perfect even
Speaker 1: before we went into the mix because we didn't have
Speaker 1: a ton of time. So it's like the Twitter whistle,
Speaker 1: the sounds of their phones, the basketball which we actually
Speaker 1: asked them to switch back to our basketball sound. You
Speaker 1: totally did that. I mean, it's funny that we can
Speaker 1: be so in tune. Because as Sam asked that question,
Speaker 1: I was going to talk about the sound design, or
Speaker 1: I was going to talk about some aspect of the
Speaker 1: sound design, where in a talk back around the movie
Speaker 1: and even in some interviews people have brought up the
Speaker 1: twitter whistle or the lock screen sound and have been like,
Speaker 1: they're just random, and I'm like, oh no, no, no.
Speaker 1: Joy placed every single one of those. It's like tailoring.
Speaker 1: She stitched and sewed every single one of those. And
Speaker 1: in fact there were more and then there were less.
Speaker 1: We actually like pulled back a good deal once we
Speaker 1: did put more of them in, even though at the
Speaker 1: time when we put more of them in there were
Speaker 1: too many. I remember thinking, the movie is almost done.
Speaker 1: Whether or not people are conscious, there's a good deal
Speaker 1: of invention in the movie that feels really special or
Speaker 1: it feels really unique to it, and they want someone
Speaker 1: to credit, and I think it's hard for them to
Speaker 1: credit me because of what I look like. And the
Speaker 1: summation of all the parts becomes, well, it had to
Speaker 1: be all of these people, and it's not me here
Speaker 1: saying like I am the whole movie. I am not
Speaker 1: the whole movie, and my biggest partner in it is Joy.
Speaker 1: And if I think about the post process, actually there
Speaker 1: are maybe three or four things that lead to the
Speaker 1: end of the film, and that is my relationship with Joy.
Speaker 1: I actually think it's also my relationship with the development
Speaker 1: aspect of A twenty four. You know, Noahsacho and Ali.
Speaker 1: I think they're big part of like how we shape that,
Speaker 1: and obviously composition is a part of it too, But
Speaker 1: I think that like actually like noting from our producers
Speaker 1: Killer A twenty four and you are how we get
Speaker 1: to the final movie. And it's not to say that
Speaker 1: it's always cheerful, because it isn't. I hope that the
Speaker 1: movie is good enough to make my next movie easier.
Speaker 1: But I also hope to always have people in my
Speaker 1: life that are comfortable with saying no to me. And
Speaker 1: I also have hope to always have people in my
Speaker 1: life who want to push me right. And it depends
Speaker 1: on how they're pushing you right, like to be pushed
Speaker 1: with generosity as opposed to be pushed with doubt. And
Speaker 1: I think about that process and even you Sam, who's
Speaker 1: seen the movie so much. I mean, I have forced
Speaker 1: it on you a good deal. I'm not sorry for that.
Speaker 1: It was good for you happy, But I think do
Speaker 1: you feel like I pushed you generously? Oh? Absolutely? I
Speaker 1: am not always good at getting notes, and I think
Speaker 1: both of you would agree that I'm bullish and a
Speaker 1: bully and a fascist. I would agree. I would love
Speaker 1: to be heroic in the notes getting process. I would
Speaker 1: love to be like, mmmmmm, yeah, I got this. Sometimes
Speaker 1: I need space. Actually, it's like when you first read them,
Speaker 1: there is like hostility. I'm like, okay, bitch, let's go
Speaker 1: find me in the ring. I've never been in a fight,
Speaker 1: but I am ready to fucking go straight for that nose.
Speaker 1: And then honestly, with space, you're like, these are totally
Speaker 1: fine questions and thoughts to have asked. I don't know
Speaker 1: where I was mentally, it's because it's something about like
Speaker 1: parenting or something about being in school where it feels
Speaker 1: like you're on the receiving end of not having done
Speaker 1: your best. I think that's exactly it. And also it's
Speaker 1: like time and energy to getting to that point. And
Speaker 1: sometimes I think people forget to say the good things
Speaker 1: and then highlight the bad. And so when they're just
Speaker 1: straight up giving you the bad, is kind of like,
Speaker 1: but there's so many other good things? Did you see that?
Speaker 1: And it's not like they're not aware of the good,
Speaker 1: But sometimes they're like let's just get to the bad
Speaker 1: because we have time, money, got to get through this process.
Speaker 1: And so I think taking that into consideration is like, okay, yes,
Speaker 1: like their notes are valid if you don't agree with it.
Speaker 1: I think there's something about like opposition or obstruction that
Speaker 1: can actually lead you to where you want to go,
Speaker 1: or can remind you of your intention and how to
Speaker 1: be more pointed in your intention. So for context, this
Speaker 1: was a film shot in the fall of twenty eighteen,
Speaker 1: edited from basically January nineteenth through June nineteen, finished through
Speaker 1: the remainder of nineteen, premiered at Sundance in January of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty March fourteenth, COVID happens, and the plan was
Speaker 1: to release the movie in the summer of twenty twenty. That,
Speaker 1: of course doesn't happen. Then you two sit down for
Speaker 1: the A twenty four podcast and it's basically both of
Speaker 1: you being how do we say depressed? Do you think
Speaker 1: I was depressed? No? Joy, You were editing Underground Railroad,
Speaker 1: so you were okay. The whole podcast is like the
Speaker 1: world's terrible, but I got a job underground Railroad. Lol.
Speaker 1: I want to also say the edit starts in October
Speaker 1: of twenty eighteen. But both of you can't believe it's
Speaker 1: out now. We had this joke going that both Joy
Speaker 1: and Daniel are assistant editor, that they would just be
Speaker 1: working on it like ten years from now. I'd be like, so,
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a voice over twenty seven minutes
Speaker 1: in a lot to hear one more time. And they're
Speaker 1: not getting paid for this anymore. They're literally like on
Speaker 1: Barry jenkins thirty eighth film, and I'm still working on
Speaker 1: my second movie, and I'm like, hey, guys, I'm just wondering,
Speaker 1: like I'm actually now in a like home for my
Speaker 1: early onset dementia, but I've got an editing suite. You
Speaker 1: got a shot of Zula's face. I know most of
Speaker 1: it's out of focus, but let me just see it
Speaker 1: one more time. Who was your cinetic in New York?
Speaker 1: I literally was like, this is Sartre's No Exit, This
Speaker 1: is is Charlie Coffman, senecticky New York. Um. We are
Speaker 1: in purgatory. Hell is other people. I actually think I
Speaker 1: am other people, which means I am Hell's accurate. It's
Speaker 1: Zola is me looking in the mirror knowing that I
Speaker 1: will never get there. It's actually like Zola is actually
Speaker 1: what like Lemon came true, like the prophecy of Lemon
Speaker 1: comes true, except that I'm just now stuck in Zola.
Speaker 1: That's my third film. That's my third film. Is that
Speaker 1: I'm um my final my final entry into race play
Speaker 1: as film is um. I'm still working on Zola. That's
Speaker 1: my third film. That's a full chapter, you know. Fittingly
Speaker 1: that would kind of be like you're all that jazz
Speaker 1: him re editing Lenny Yep over and over again. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's called tying it all back in Thank you. That's gorgeous.
Speaker 1: Says that one of those like sort of like podcasts
Speaker 1: like from Pull from the Legend, that's what you're supposed
Speaker 1: to do. Well, this is my first podcast. Like it's
Speaker 1: so cute. With the success of this movie, you were
Speaker 1: saying that you hope things get ten percent easier twenty
Speaker 1: you said ten. Do you want to up at twenty? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say twenty percent twenty five thank you, because
Speaker 1: I think from Lemon to Zola things got ten to
Speaker 1: fifteen percent easier. How did it get easier? I think
Speaker 1: I got easier. There is more money. It's not a
Speaker 1: significant more, but there is more money than there was,
Speaker 1: there are more days to shoot. I was more confident.
Speaker 1: Not that I wasn't comfortable when I was making Lemon,
Speaker 1: but I understood that so much of Lemon was an audition,
Speaker 1: was an audition of whether or not I could. Getting
Speaker 1: Zola meant that I could, but I had to make
Speaker 1: the landing right. So I already had felt like there
Speaker 1: were certain things I could fight for Advocate four because
Speaker 1: I had had them on Lemon, whether or not Lemon
Speaker 1: had been a successful film or had done well, which
Speaker 1: you know, we all know it did huge huge. People
Speaker 1: just can't stop talking about it. They're just always like, oh,
Speaker 1: and then Lemon on podcast and I quote you said,
Speaker 1: Lemon one hundred percent row tomatoes eleven out of ten
Speaker 1: on IMDb. Did I really say that? Well, I was
Speaker 1: obviously belligerent. No, that was not a very well loved film,
Speaker 1: although there are some people who have seen after having
Speaker 1: seen Zola, have either seen Lemon for the first time
Speaker 1: or have gone back to watch Lemon and have been
Speaker 1: able to look at it a bit differently, which is great.
Speaker 1: I feel very good about that movie. I love that movie,
Speaker 1: and that that is my baby and it's my and
Speaker 1: Brett's baby. I wouldn't be here if not for that piece.
Speaker 1: And so the ten to fifteen percent easier is because
Speaker 1: that happened on Lemon. There are certain things I could
Speaker 1: ask for or expect from my experience on Zola, and
Speaker 1: so I can now use Zola as an example for
Speaker 1: what I would like on my next film. I get
Speaker 1: to go, well, I have this, so it only makes
Speaker 1: sense that I have that here or more right, And
Speaker 1: I think it's that The twenty to twenty five percent
Speaker 1: easier is Some of that is people saying yes to you,
Speaker 1: but also it's also what you can ask for. It's
Speaker 1: being able to ask for certain things or have a
Speaker 1: certain kind of expectation of like for me to make
Speaker 1: the best work, I need my environment to look like
Speaker 1: this and not feel like that is too big an ask.
Speaker 1: But it's also about trust. It's people saying we're entrusting
Speaker 1: you with this money in this script and this movie.
Speaker 1: And on that previous podcast from last summer, Joy you
Speaker 1: said after you were nominated for an Oscar, Miss Joy mcmailan,
Speaker 1: you remember that film, it's called Moonlight in case you
Speaker 1: don't remember, you felt like things were going to change
Speaker 1: for you. And what you said on that show is
Speaker 1: that I got you into the room, but then you
Speaker 1: felt like you to prove yourself all over again. And
Speaker 1: I wondered, for both of you, are you done proving yourself? No,
Speaker 1: we'll never stop proving ourselves, even when we get like
Speaker 1: the Lifetime Achievement awards. I think some people will be like,
Speaker 1: I'm dealing to sort of that, but I like that
Speaker 1: she knows she's getting the Lifetime Achievement Award. That's right,
Speaker 1: she's like when I get that, and she's right, by
Speaker 1: the way, She's fucking right though. I just feel so
Speaker 1: blessed to actually be able to do what I set
Speaker 1: out to do, which is edit films. And I didn't
Speaker 1: ever think that I wasn't going to be able to
Speaker 1: do that, because I think my parents definitely raised us
Speaker 1: as like, if you want it, go after it. They
Speaker 1: never ever didn't tell us how hard it was going
Speaker 1: to be. They always were very, very cognisant of the
Speaker 1: fact that it's going to be a little bit harder
Speaker 1: for us based off of, you know, the color of
Speaker 1: our skin. But that was never a deterrent for me,
Speaker 1: Like I was like, oh, yeah, now I want to
Speaker 1: be an editor. I want to edit films. That's what
Speaker 1: I set out to do. I don't think I was
Speaker 1: very aware of maybe I wasn't getting things because I
Speaker 1: was a female or because I'm black. Until I started
Speaker 1: going out to edit like features. As an assistant editor,
Speaker 1: I was working. I was constantly working. But then to
Speaker 1: be like, oh, you're the person in the chair, You're
Speaker 1: the person editing the film. That one when people are
Speaker 1: a little bit more hesitant to actually giving me a shot.
Speaker 1: The answer is similar, is very similar to toys. There
Speaker 1: isn't a good deal of nuance to it, but I
Speaker 1: actually feel like because it is like, that is why
Speaker 1: the work is what it is. Right. We've all had
Speaker 1: our fantasies of if I had been raised with more money,
Speaker 1: or if I'd lived in a certain house, or you know,
Speaker 1: more people had said yes to me, what would my
Speaker 1: life look like. It wouldn't look like this moment. The
Speaker 1: jewel of getting older is being able to appreciate the
Speaker 1: road more, or being able to look back on the
Speaker 1: road and go, yes, it was hard, but it was
Speaker 1: totally worth it. And so while it is incredibly frustrating
Speaker 1: to have to walk into almost every room and start
Speaker 1: all over again as I get older. I am not
Speaker 1: starting at square one. I think I'm starting at square five,
Speaker 1: and maybe after the movie I get to start at
Speaker 1: square nine or ten. I don't know how many squares
Speaker 1: there are, but they're a lot. It's a board game, right,
Speaker 1: You're looking at me and like, I know you're white
Speaker 1: and straight. I feel you set the fucking parameters of
Speaker 1: the game. Of course, you know it is in your
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I'm glad we get there one.
Speaker 1: You know, I was going to have to tell people
Speaker 1: you was white. I mean, they already know, so I
Speaker 1: had to make it about that. This is my show,
Speaker 1: I know, but I had to make it about like
Speaker 1: how you're white and we're black, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: things are hard for us a Mexican, not you there
Speaker 1: is you are half man. You were about to say
Speaker 1: very little. I was about to say very Really, you're right,
Speaker 1: and I do believe you're half Mexican. I know you're
Speaker 1: half Mexican. You don't have to believe anything. No, you're
Speaker 1: fully it's not a belief. This Mexican this is not
Speaker 1: a religion. Questionable at first, but now we fully believe it.
Speaker 1: It's not a religion. You don't believe it is I know,
Speaker 1: but you're you're like white passing at its peak with
Speaker 1: the blue ass. I mean your eyes are blue. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying a Mexican can't have blue eyes, but like
Speaker 1: you are. First of all, if you're listening to Sime's podcast,
Speaker 1: you know what Sam looks like. It is like it is.
Speaker 1: It means Sam looks like snow white. He literally looks
Speaker 1: like snow white. He's snow white. And and I'm not
Speaker 1: saying snow white can't be half Mexicanah, but I'd love that.
Speaker 1: I want that casting. But he looks like snow white.
Speaker 1: So you know there are other half Mexicans who who
Speaker 1: out Here is the you know where? What's where am
Speaker 1: I on? I'm five to seven, That's where they are?
Speaker 1: You know what I mean? And I guess I created
Speaker 1: the board game. Your people have your people half of them. Yes,
Speaker 1: So you're on five and maybe years from now, I'll
Speaker 1: move forward a little bit more. I also think, though,
Speaker 1: good portion of it is how we also see ourselves. Right,
Speaker 1: You're going to move through the world invisible, You're going
Speaker 1: to move through the world being considered less than And
Speaker 1: I either I'm going to believe it, or I Am
Speaker 1: going to contradict it, or or I'm gonna I'm gonna
Speaker 1: not engage with it right in some way. And I
Speaker 1: think that for a long time, I bought into it.
Speaker 1: For a very long time, I bought into being less
Speaker 1: than and I bought into wishing that I was something else.
Speaker 1: And in this moment, it's just not like that. So
Speaker 1: ten years from now, I am so excited for what
Speaker 1: is just going to happen to me personally. Who I
Speaker 1: will be ten years from now, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: better because I'm gonna give a lot less shits than
Speaker 1: I already do. I'm glad you meant ten years from now,
Speaker 1: that's where I want to end. I like to think
Speaker 1: of this show as a kind of time capsule for me,
Speaker 1: for the listeners, for the people that come on. And
Speaker 1: we have this tape that the three of us will
Speaker 1: always have, but then people around the world will also have.
Speaker 1: And it's as much for us as it is for
Speaker 1: people listening. And so if we are to revisit this
Speaker 1: tape and ten years, let's go ten years, what would
Speaker 1: you like that version of you to know about you?
Speaker 1: Right now? This is the thing that I do think
Speaker 1: is really beautiful about your show is that there is
Speaker 1: a time capsule to it. It feels a bit like
Speaker 1: if you wanted a record of what life had been like,
Speaker 1: that this would be a great place to start. What
Speaker 1: would I want to hear ten years from now? I mean,
Speaker 1: that's so hard to say. I think that I feel
Speaker 1: a lot of it has been trickled into the episode,
Speaker 1: and I think what both Joy and I are exuding
Speaker 1: is not needing other people's approval because we already have
Speaker 1: our own right. I have hers, she has mine. That
Speaker 1: is the win, and that other people are also into
Speaker 1: the thing that we made is wonderful. It's so beautiful.
Speaker 1: But that light will fade. And when that light fades,
Speaker 1: you know, when I am, when I'm in the museum
Speaker 1: of what my life was with my dimension Alzheimer's, I
Speaker 1: will not remember Instagram, I will not remember Twitter. But
Speaker 1: what I hope I remember is Joy's laugh or I
Speaker 1: hope I remember this moment with you. Try to beat that,
Speaker 1: both of you, because you won't. You will not beat
Speaker 1: that try It's funny. I was going to change the question.
Speaker 1: I think I actually I'd like to not trying to
Speaker 1: beat you. This is a podcast, not a race. It's
Speaker 1: all a race every moment of my life, and had
Speaker 1: not change those levels quick enough for that. That's what
Speaker 1: I want in ten years? What do you both want
Speaker 1: to do in that? I think for me, I hope
Speaker 1: in ten years that I've taken more vacations. That's good.
Speaker 1: I've been changed by Lake Como, and I hope that
Speaker 1: my ten years self can say I've been back more
Speaker 1: than once. More holiday, more holiday, more room. Actually, that's um,
Speaker 1: that's really good. I feel like we had this kind
Speaker 1: of capsule year that for some people look like stagnation,
Speaker 1: and even for some people who did do a good
Speaker 1: deal of work, there is still some kind of stagnation
Speaker 1: around it, right, and now we're back and I feel
Speaker 1: just like how we went into quarantine, now that we're
Speaker 1: outside of it in some way, there was no lead up.
Speaker 1: There was no lead up, and now we're just fucking back.
Speaker 1: And people are like, I got deadlines and what I
Speaker 1: referred to as white deadlines, because white deadlines aren't really
Speaker 1: engaging with where you are at emotionally or what you
Speaker 1: might need or space. White deadlines are like, hey girl, yeah,
Speaker 1: So anyways, like we've talked to the studio and everyone's
Speaker 1: here and really excited. I understand your films come out,
Speaker 1: but anyways, yeah, so can you please respond to that
Speaker 1: email that we sent. There's also three texts and we
Speaker 1: talked to your manager. That's white deadlines. So what I
Speaker 1: am hoping, I'm like fully sweating right now, I'm fully perspiring.
Speaker 1: I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm not. What I am hoping
Speaker 1: as a culture to speak to what you said about
Speaker 1: holiday is that we allow for downtime. I think the
Speaker 1: thing I miss most about school is that we literally
Speaker 1: had time off, like come middle to end of June
Speaker 1: to after Labor Day, we literally had that time off,
Speaker 1: and our parents would take some of that holiday with us,
Speaker 1: and then we would you spend time with friends, or
Speaker 1: we would also have kind of our own calendar. But
Speaker 1: we really had that time off, and like we should
Speaker 1: have two months off, two and a half months off,
Speaker 1: and so being really on feels really unhygienic, and it
Speaker 1: feels as though there it feels like we don't have
Speaker 1: room to ask for it. And in trying to make
Speaker 1: space for myself after the movie, I feel I am
Speaker 1: being met with some opposition right and I don't know
Speaker 1: how to all the way articulate that, yes, the movie
Speaker 1: came out three weeks ago and I should just be
Speaker 1: ready to go back. But I'm like, this is like years.
Speaker 1: It's not only four years leading up to the movie.
Speaker 1: It is also like sixteen years of my life leading
Speaker 1: up to this moment. And all I need is sort
Speaker 1: of this breath, and I don't feel like I'm allowed
Speaker 1: to ask for it. But I am also afraid of
Speaker 1: being run ragged because I think that I think I
Speaker 1: need the room to be able to be what's special
Speaker 1: about me, and I can feel myself elf getting pushed
Speaker 1: into a corner. You need to allow yourself to miss
Speaker 1: it and want to get back to it. If you
Speaker 1: never allow enough space to be like I want to
Speaker 1: be answering emails, I want to be looking at you know,
Speaker 1: costumes and deciding, you know, I want to be back
Speaker 1: on set. If you don't give yourself space to miss it,
Speaker 1: then you take away the joy of actually having access
Speaker 1: to it. And that's one of the things that I've
Speaker 1: been very cognisitantve of, like I need to give myself
Speaker 1: space away from just going from project to project, because
Speaker 1: when I'm back in it I'm going to look at
Speaker 1: it and be like, this is so special that I'm
Speaker 1: involved in this, and I'm so excited to now go
Speaker 1: on this journey. I wish you both that break right now.
Speaker 1: There's so many strangers around this country watching this movie
Speaker 1: that was born out of the spare room of a
Speaker 1: West Hollywood apartment mansion with a garage nearby in the pool.
Speaker 1: My air conditioner was stolen from the garage. I was
Speaker 1: so sad I actually took that. I didn't want to
Speaker 1: tell you, and I know that it is hard to
Speaker 1: celebrate right now because you both are understandably fatigued, but
Speaker 1: that's not that long ago, and I think it's really
Speaker 1: special that all these people now are taking on this
Speaker 1: movie you two created together, and that is worth celebrating.
Speaker 1: And so in the next ten years, a break, yes,
Speaker 1: but more to come. And I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: the best is yet to come because I don't want
Speaker 1: you to get mad at me, but I wish that
Speaker 1: for you both. Jennick's Bravo. Joy McMillan, thank you very much,
Speaker 1: Thank you for having us so happy to be here.
Speaker 1: We can raise a glass now and that's our show.
Speaker 1: Special thanks this week to Jannick so Bravo and Joy McMillan.
Speaker 1: Zola is now out in theaters around the country. To
Speaker 1: see if it's playing at a theater near you, visit
Speaker 1: tickets dot Zola dot movie. That's tickets, dot Zola dot movie.
Speaker 1: It's also available on demand through Apple TV, Amazon Prime,
Speaker 1: and more. If you'd like links to all of this,
Speaker 1: visit our show notes at www dot cok easypod dot com.
Speaker 1: If you enjoyed today's episode with Janisa and Joy, I
Speaker 1: have a feeling you may like these other talks with
Speaker 1: folks like Steven Soderberg, Ts, Madison Coleman Domingo, Janelle Money,
Speaker 1: Errol Morris, and Joel Myerwitz. You can find all these
Speaker 1: and more on our website or wherever you do your podcasting.
Speaker 1: You can also follow us on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram
Speaker 1: at talk easy pod. If you'd like to join our
Speaker 1: mailing list, drop me a line at talk easypod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. As always, our executive producer is the
Speaker 1: inimitable Jannick Sobravo. Our associate producers are Caitlin Dryden and
Speaker 1: Mickey Spina. Our lead editor is Andre Lynn. Our editors
Speaker 1: for today's episode are Caitlin Dryden and Clarice ki Vara.
Speaker 1: Our assistant editor is Joshua Siegel. Our interns are Callie
Speaker 1: syringis Kaylin Ung, Patrice Lee, and Grace Perkins. Our illustrations
Speaker 1: are by Christia Schanoy. Video and graphics by Ian Chang,
Speaker 1: Derek gaberzach O'Ryan Wong, Ian Jones, Isabelle Primavera and Ethan Seneca.
Speaker 1: And of course, the show is produced by Caroline Reebok.
Speaker 1: I'm Sanfordgoso. Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. I'll
Speaker 1: see you back here next week with a new episode.
Speaker 1: Until then, stay safe and Solo