Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is talk Easy. I'm San Fracoso. Welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Hello, everyone, Welcome to the show. I'm Sam
Speaker 1: God damn. It seems like we narrowly averted authoritarianism. How
Speaker 1: does it feel. I'm about ten pounds lighter today. You know,
Speaker 1: after a protracted election, Vice President Biden became President elect.
Speaker 1: Biden and Senator Kamala Harris made history as the first
Speaker 1: woman VP this country has ever seen. It took way
Speaker 1: too damn long, It was way too damn close, but
Speaker 1: it happened. And this man's reign is over. The chapter
Speaker 1: is closed, but President Trump will not disappear. The enthusiasm
Speaker 1: for this man will not vanish. Our problems are not
Speaker 1: solved today, but I'm hopeful they can at least be
Speaker 1: acknowledged and abiding presidency. Problems around climate change, economic inequality,
Speaker 1: systemic racism, the pandemic. We have lots of issues in
Speaker 1: this country, and the first step to solving any problem
Speaker 1: is admitting there is one. For four years, we have
Speaker 1: lived under a president in denial. Today we have chosen
Speaker 1: someone different. He is not perfect. He was not my first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth,
Speaker 1: or ninth choice. But the man has acknowledged the problems,
Speaker 1: and in my view, that's a much better position to
Speaker 1: be in than living under someone whose ego comes before
Speaker 1: our issues. As we close out twenty twenty, we'll be
Speaker 1: sitting with a handful of unique voices to help us
Speaker 1: unpack our past so that we can understand our present
Speaker 1: and then try to imagine a better future. That may
Speaker 1: sound lofty. It probably is, but I think it's possible.
Speaker 1: We will also be returning to our scheduled programming, you know,
Speaker 1: conversations about art, about film, literature, music. I believe folks
Speaker 1: like Matthew McConaughey and Ethan Hawke will be joining us
Speaker 1: to do some of that because I like to reinvest
Speaker 1: in these subjects again. I'd like to care about movies again,
Speaker 1: for Christ's sake. I mean, in this period in the pandemic.
Speaker 1: I don't know about you. I've had a hard time reading,
Speaker 1: I've had a hard time watching. The only thing I
Speaker 1: can listen to is the Daily And as much as
Speaker 1: I like Michael Babarro, my God, I need a break.
Speaker 1: So we will offer that refuge in pockets when and
Speaker 1: where we can, as we try to move away from
Speaker 1: this upsetting chapter in American history. But and there is
Speaker 1: a butt. I'm sorry, but we can't just move away,
Speaker 1: can we. This is a time to celebrate, but it's
Speaker 1: a modest celebration. There's a lot of work to be done.
Speaker 1: I know we want rest, I know we want that refuge,
Speaker 1: but we aren't there yet. And it's voices like g
Speaker 1: Noam Chomsky that compels me to share this message. Even
Speaker 1: at age ninety one, Professor Chomsky continues to fight, continues
Speaker 1: to call out the serious issues we face as a
Speaker 1: country in transition. I understand some of you may want
Speaker 1: a lighter dialogue today. That's okay. This conversation with Chomsky
Speaker 1: will still be here for you whenever you're ready. We
Speaker 1: have a lot of progress to make, a lot of
Speaker 1: battles to fight, and elections, as Chomsky is fond of saying,
Speaker 1: are just the beginning. So why don't we start there
Speaker 1: from the beginning? All right, I'm just doing a sound tusk.
Speaker 1: Can you just say, what did you have for breakfast today? Whatever? Wat?
Speaker 1: Dry cereal? Because I couldn't find any milk. Well, I
Speaker 1: don't know if that's a metaphor for how this week
Speaker 1: has gone. And hell, the next week we'll go, let's
Speaker 1: start there, because there has been this multi state uncertainty
Speaker 1: around this election where even as we tape on Friday afternoon, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, Alaska,
Speaker 1: and North Carolina have not been called. It has created
Speaker 1: this kind of national unease. Perhaps that unease existed since
Speaker 1: the start of the pandemic, or perhaps it was there
Speaker 1: once Donald Trump became President Trump in twenty sixteen. How
Speaker 1: have you been seeing this historic week in America? Well,
Speaker 1: I think as far as the election is concerned, the
Speaker 1: outcome was clear before the voting. Namely, it was a
Speaker 1: huge victory for President Trump and the Republican Party. I mean,
Speaker 1: the very fact that a figure like that could appear
Speaker 1: as a legitimate candidate to take the most obvious after
Speaker 1: having killed tens, if not hundreds of thousands of Americans,
Speaker 1: and that's the least of his crimes. That's already astonishing.
Speaker 1: And what actually happened on November fourth, however, the details
Speaker 1: come out, was just a further immense victory for extreme reaction.
Speaker 1: It's shocking that first that he was able to compete, secondly,
Speaker 1: that he got almost half the vote. Trump increased his
Speaker 1: vote in virtually every demographic category, even black women. The
Speaker 1: one category in which his vote declined was actually white men,
Speaker 1: which he wins overwhelmingly, but there was a slight decline there. Nevertheless,
Speaker 1: the white vote remains Republican, as it has been ever
Speaker 1: since Nixon. The Nixon Southern strategy has never ended opposition
Speaker 1: to civil rights, racism, phobia they sell to a large
Speaker 1: part of the population. Now this is not just Trump.
Speaker 1: We should remember that although Trump has succeeded brilliantly in
Speaker 1: tapping every poisonous under current of American society, racism, xenophobia,
Speaker 1: white supremacy, he's done it like a genius. He has
Speaker 1: also tapped something else which is understandable and even justified,
Speaker 1: namely the anger and resentment among what are cold in
Speaker 1: the categories less educated whites, meaning working people. They're furious
Speaker 1: they've been dealt a very serious blow over the past
Speaker 1: forty years. The Democrats offer them nothing. They abandoned the
Speaker 1: working class and a generation ago by the time of Carter.
Speaker 1: The Republicans offer them even less, but they do have rhetoric.
Speaker 1: So Trump can stand up and denounce the elites while
Speaker 1: he's serving the rich and the corporate sector with the
Speaker 1: dedication and that offers at least something to people. On
Speaker 1: top of that, there's the neoliberal version of globalization of
Speaker 1: the international economy, which was crafted by people like Bill Clinton,
Speaker 1: carried forward by people like Barack Obama and of course
Speaker 1: the publicans, and it's structured in such a way as
Speaker 1: to set American working people in competition with the lowest
Speaker 1: wage countries in the world with no worker protection, no
Speaker 1: environmental rules, and at the same time offer extensive protections
Speaker 1: to the rich and the powerful. So the exorbitant patent
Speaker 1: monopolies of the World Trade Organization. They're the reason why
Speaker 1: drug devices are in the stratosphere and why you can't
Speaker 1: get them. This is just massive. It's one of many
Speaker 1: massive gifts to the very rich in the corporate sector,
Speaker 1: while the poor, of course, are forgotten. The working class
Speaker 1: in the middle class just get shafted constantly, and they're angry.
Speaker 1: They may not know the details, but they can see
Speaker 1: it in their lives. Majority of the population live from
Speaker 1: paycheck to paycheck. And meanwhile, the top zero point one
Speaker 1: percent since Reagan, have raised their share of the country's
Speaker 1: wealth from ten percent to twenty percent. That's zero point
Speaker 1: one percent of the population. Well for the rest of
Speaker 1: its stagnation, decline, uncertainty. So sure there's anger, and Trump,
Speaker 1: who's a very skilled con man, can stand up and
Speaker 1: say I love you. I'm attacking the elites who are
Speaker 1: doing this to you, meanwhile stabbing in the back. It's
Speaker 1: a good trick. And yet, even despite your very serious
Speaker 1: criticisms of neoliberalism, you did ultimately decide to vote for
Speaker 1: Joe Biden. No, I decided to vote against Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: In our system, there's only one way of doing it
Speaker 1: as a technique gality, and that is to push the
Speaker 1: button for the Democrats. But I don't even see how
Speaker 1: this can be discussed. The case for voting against Trump
Speaker 1: was so overwhelming that it shouldn't even be a topic
Speaker 1: for discussion. The fact that it is a topic for
Speaker 1: discussion reveals how much the left has lost of its
Speaker 1: traditional understanding of real politics. For the traditional left, elections
Speaker 1: are a kind of an interlude and a life of
Speaker 1: political activism. So you take off a couple of minutes,
Speaker 1: you decide if it's worth participating, usually means voting against somebody.
Speaker 1: If it is, you take off the time to do it.
Speaker 1: If it isn't, you do something else. But you go
Speaker 1: back to work. That's the traditional left. Not today. Today.
Speaker 1: There's a laser like focus on elections, particularly in twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: It is so obvious how threatening and dangerous a Trump
Speaker 1: presidency is that there shouldn't even be any discussion of
Speaker 1: It takes something that's barely discussed, climate environmental catastrophe. I
Speaker 1: mean that overwhelms everything else. Trump is racing consciously towards cataclism.
Speaker 1: What else is there a discuss? Then a Biden presidency,
Speaker 1: at least you have an opportunity to do something. Your
Speaker 1: new book, Climate Crisis and the Global Green New Deal,
Speaker 1: explores the nature of climate change and its relationship to capitalism.
Speaker 1: Assuming climate change is part of a Biden presidency, or
Speaker 1: rather a concern of the Biden presidency, in all indications
Speaker 1: say it will be. How do we make this Green
Speaker 1: New Deal a nonpartisan deal? How do we make the
Speaker 1: case in terms that are not inherently political and divisive.
Speaker 1: It's not easy. We have had a president corporate media
Speaker 1: echo chamber for the president, Fox News, Breitbart, Rush Limbo,
Speaker 1: constantly telling the population, the part of the population that
Speaker 1: listens to them, that's almost half the population, telling them
Speaker 1: you can't believe scientists their liars. They're deceitful. The global
Speaker 1: warming is a scam, nothing's happening. It'll get cooler tomorrow,
Speaker 1: just like Trump said, will he was observing the fires
Speaker 1: in the West that's drummed into people's heads as an effect.
Speaker 1: In the United States, twenty percent of Republicans think you
Speaker 1: can trust scientists. Twenty almost half. I think that lobal warming,
Speaker 1: even if it's taking place, is not an urgent problem
Speaker 1: and humans probably don't contribute to it. You're struggling against
Speaker 1: beliefs that are deeply established and are constantly reinforced from
Speaker 1: the White House and the echo chamber, and how can
Speaker 1: to be not a part of an issue in that case.
Speaker 1: There's a huge educational effort to be undertaken among liberals
Speaker 1: as well. Just yesterday, I have to be listening to
Speaker 1: NBR and there was a section this is the liberal
Speaker 1: extreme of the media. There was a section on an
Speaker 1: analysis of a vote, interesting vote on the South Texas
Speaker 1: Mexico border counties that had been solidly democratic for a century.
Speaker 1: A lot of Mexican Americans, poor working people, totally never Republicans,
Speaker 1: didn't even have a party of organization there. They voted
Speaker 1: for Trump, first time in a century, the Republicans won anything,
Speaker 1: and the analyst explained that the reason was because of
Speaker 1: a gaff, a terrible gaff that Biden made in the
Speaker 1: last debate for which he's been very widely criticized by
Speaker 1: the liberal media too. What he said was we have
Speaker 1: to do something to stop destruction of the human species.
Speaker 1: That's the gaff. It's not the words he used. The
Speaker 1: words he used, which have the same meaning, are we
Speaker 1: have to think about transitioning to a non falsil economy.
Speaker 1: Anybody who doesn't understand that is on a suicide pact.
Speaker 1: But it's a gaff. You're not allowed to say it.
Speaker 1: You read the analyses in the press today about how
Speaker 1: centrist Democrats are condemning the left Democrats for their rotten
Speaker 1: performance everywhere. They're blaming them because they call for things
Speaker 1: like a green New Deal. In other words, they're calling
Speaker 1: for trying to save the human species from total destruction.
Speaker 1: That's a terrible error. Can't do that. What does that
Speaker 1: tell you about let's call liberal America. It's funny you
Speaker 1: mentioned this because yesterday, on a call with Democratic House representatives,
Speaker 1: Abigail Spanburger of Virginia widely criticized the Democratic Party for
Speaker 1: underperforming and blamed a great majority of that underperformance on
Speaker 1: language around the Green New Deal, the defund police movement,
Speaker 1: Black Lives Matter, socialism, just the term socialism, regardless of
Speaker 1: its context. And she said, we need to no longer
Speaker 1: speak of these things if they do not represent what
Speaker 1: we want to do in Congress, which I found as
Speaker 1: a young person a little disheartening but not surprising. Well,
Speaker 1: you have to remember what kind of country this is.
Speaker 1: I can't think of another country in the world where
Speaker 1: the word socialism is even controversial. Somebody's a socialist like
Speaker 1: he's a Democrat or a Republican. The United States is
Speaker 1: off the spectrum on this. It's ideologically very tightly controlled
Speaker 1: by right wing doctrine that includes the liberals. You can't
Speaker 1: say you're a socialist. What a socialist mean? It means
Speaker 1: a new deal liberal, new deal democrat. That's what socialist means,
Speaker 1: I mean. It was very striking to see the criticism
Speaker 1: of Sanders from the left liberal in the spectrum. I'm
Speaker 1: talking now about the media, you know, so that you
Speaker 1: take the more liberal media like New York Times, Washington Posts,
Speaker 1: more liberal commentators. As far as they go, we're saying
Speaker 1: Sanders's proposals are reasonable, but they're too radical for Americans.
Speaker 1: What is the proposal that's too radical for Americans? Well,
Speaker 1: his main one was universal healthcare. Take a look around
Speaker 1: the world. Can you find a country that doesn't have
Speaker 1: universal healthcare. You have to look pretty hard. Everybody has it,
Speaker 1: for rich countries, poor countries. But it's too radical for Americans.
Speaker 1: Even though Americans want it, majority of Americans want it.
Speaker 1: Everyone else in the world has it, but it's too
Speaker 1: radical for Americans. Tells you something about the deep indoctrination
Speaker 1: that extends well to the left liberal extreme. And take
Speaker 1: his other proposal for which he is widely condemned again
Speaker 1: this morning, the Democrat liberals are condemned for calling for
Speaker 1: free higher education. Couple of miles south of where I
Speaker 1: live in Tucson, they have free higher education. The poor
Speaker 1: country Mexico good educational system. Go across the Atlantic. The
Speaker 1: best educational systems in the world are free higher education, Germany, Finland,
Speaker 1: all the ones that score highest. But for Americans, it's
Speaker 1: too radical. Incidentally, we once had it and somehow it
Speaker 1: wasn't too radical. Nineteen fifties, we had the g I
Speaker 1: Bill of Rights, which gave free tuition, higher education, even
Speaker 1: subsidies for vast numbers of Americans who would never haven't
Speaker 1: been going to college otherwise. It was very good for them,
Speaker 1: it was very good for the country. It was a
Speaker 1: much poorer country then we could somehow afford it. But
Speaker 1: now it's too radical for Americans. I mean, all of
Speaker 1: this is part of the shift that's taken place since
Speaker 1: the seventies, not only in policy and economics under the
Speaker 1: neoliberal assault, but also in ideology and perception. I think
Speaker 1: I remember Clinton once saying that he was actually a
Speaker 1: moderate Republican. Well, it's basically correct. He was what used
Speaker 1: to be a moderate Republican. The Republicans have gone off
Speaker 1: into outer space. That's what's happened in the elite culture,
Speaker 1: not the general society. Like people of your generation, it's
Speaker 1: not true even among young Republicans much percentage recognize the
Speaker 1: dangers of destroying the atmosphere and similarly on other topics.
Speaker 1: But there is a break. You said something that I
Speaker 1: want to quote, which is these ideas as written about
Speaker 1: in the New York Times or the Washington Posts, presented
Speaker 1: by Bernie Sanders or an AOC or whoever is putting
Speaker 1: these fourth They are reasonable, but they are radical for Americans,
Speaker 1: walk me through that disconnect. They are reasonable, but they
Speaker 1: are radical. Am I Am I missing something here? They're
Speaker 1: radical in the sense that elite American culture and a
Speaker 1: lot of popular culture has drifted very far to the right.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you take a look at international comparisons
Speaker 1: of political parties, the Democrats are ranked along the centrist parties.
Speaker 1: In Europe, the Republicans are ranked alongside the far right
Speaker 1: parties with neo fascist origins. Now, if you look at
Speaker 1: people's actual attitudes, it's pretty different. So when people are
Speaker 1: asked do you think everyone should have access to health care?
Speaker 1: Very high percentages or in favor of it. Even the
Speaker 1: state of Pennsylvania ask about tracking most of the populations
Speaker 1: against it because of the effects. But it doesn't show up.
Speaker 1: Now you take this county in South Texas that I
Speaker 1: was talking about. Let's say the NPR analyst was correct,
Speaker 1: who probably was said the reason is the economy there
Speaker 1: is based on oil, and you can't come to people
Speaker 1: and say destroy your businesses, your lives, your homes go.
Speaker 1: Some rich elite say there's going to be a disaster
Speaker 1: in twenty years. While there was a way to counter that,
Speaker 1: but the Democrats wouldn't do it doesn't fit their programs.
Speaker 1: The way to counter it is by massive, large scale,
Speaker 1: serious educational programs showing the people in the oil countries
Speaker 1: in South Texas, but there's a much better life for
Speaker 1: you with a Green New Deal, which will preserve a
Speaker 1: life for your children, grandchildren, offer you better jobs, better communities,
Speaker 1: and better life altogether. That's what the Green New Deal offers.
Speaker 1: But if you don't tell people and not just say
Speaker 1: give them the words, but work on the ground to
Speaker 1: make it clear that they understand it, you're going to lose.
Speaker 1: Same on defunding the police, If it's just a slogan,
Speaker 1: it's going to immediately be interpreted is okay, take the
Speaker 1: police out of my rich suburb and let the black
Speaker 1: looters come in. What you have to do is work
Speaker 1: on the ground to explain that defund the police means
Speaker 1: something that you want and that the police want. That
Speaker 1: means turning over much of police activity which doesn't belong
Speaker 1: to the police, turning it over to social services who
Speaker 1: can handle it community support groups. Police shouldn't be involved
Speaker 1: in domestic disputes, in overdoses, in mental health problems. That's
Speaker 1: most of what they do, and it's not what they
Speaker 1: should do. These are all things that should be done
Speaker 1: by community service organizations that are fitted for it. You know,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to say get rid of the police.
Speaker 1: But if you don't make the effort to explain what
Speaker 1: the term means, and it means effort, not just a
Speaker 1: couple of words, you're going to lose. That's what organizing
Speaker 1: is about. Has to go on. That's why for the left,
Speaker 1: elections were a minor interlude. The real work is the
Speaker 1: constant education and organizing so people understand what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Take said universal healthcare, and when I lived most of
Speaker 1: my life in Massachusetts, liberal state, there were constant referendums
Speaker 1: called to institute universal healthcare. And the course of the
Speaker 1: referendums was very interesting to watch. At first, they had
Speaker 1: overwhelming support. Yeah, of course we should have universal healthcare.
Speaker 1: Then the corporate lobbying began and you try, these programs
Speaker 1: are going to bankrupt you. They're going to cost too
Speaker 1: much money, tens of trillions of dollars. Your taxes will
Speaker 1: go way up. They'll be destroyed, and gradually you can
Speaker 1: see the support for universal healthcare declining. Nobody was coming
Speaker 1: through and not just saying, but getting people to understand that, yes,
Speaker 1: your taxes will go up and your bills will go
Speaker 1: down far more. You'll pay half as much out of
Speaker 1: your pocket, but instead of going to insurance companies, it'll
Speaker 1: go to the common good, Okay, which is what taxes
Speaker 1: ought to be in a democratic society. You've got to
Speaker 1: get that message across. You heard it during the Sanders campaign.
Speaker 1: Every time you proposed universal healthcare, you've got screaming about
Speaker 1: them and thirty trillion dollars in taxes. How much did
Speaker 1: you hear about the fact that you'll pay half of
Speaker 1: what you pay now out of your pocket, but it
Speaker 1: won't go to enrich insurance companies. It'll go for medical care.
Speaker 1: You can't just say that to people. Have to get
Speaker 1: them to understand it. That's what real politics is about.
Speaker 1: It's not about showing up on election day. I think
Speaker 1: back now to your book manufacturing consent with these liberal
Speaker 1: policies that we're talking about, do you think, beyond education
Speaker 1: that it's just a branding issue. That's our culture, which
Speaker 1: thinks of everything as branding. But that's not what's needed.
Speaker 1: What's needed is getting people to understand the world in
Speaker 1: which they live. It's not a matter of trying to
Speaker 1: brainwash them with better slogans, but becoming educated and understanding.
Speaker 1: The working class can and does understand when the issues
Speaker 1: are laid out in a way that reaches their lives,
Speaker 1: the things that are significant and so on. But that's
Speaker 1: a day after day activity. That means working in your neighborhood,
Speaker 1: in your community, nationally, internationally because these rural international issues
Speaker 1: at every level, constant daily work of organizing an activism. Now,
Speaker 1: a lot of this used to come out of the
Speaker 1: labor unions. I'm old enough to remember the thirties. My
Speaker 1: family was mostly uneducated, working class. A lot of them
Speaker 1: never went past elementary school, but they were very educated
Speaker 1: politically alive. A lot of it came from things like
Speaker 1: workers education programs, organizing activities in the unions, a political party.
Speaker 1: Activism was part of life of Reagan. Also Thatcher understood
Speaker 1: very well when they launched the neoliberal assault that the
Speaker 1: first thing they have to do is destroy labor unions.
Speaker 1: You look back, their first acts were to try to
Speaker 1: destroy the labor movement, when the government started, corporations picked
Speaker 1: it up. Clinton accelerated it. One of the immediate obvious
Speaker 1: predicted consequences of NAFTA was would undermine labor organizing in
Speaker 1: the United States, as in fact it did. Employers were
Speaker 1: able to break organizing efforts by threatening to move jobs
Speaker 1: to Mexico. Happens to be illegal, but when you have
Speaker 1: a criminal state, there's no problem with illegal activities. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't prosecuted. National Labor Relations Board just looked somewhere else.
Speaker 1: That's Clinton, the most liberally you can get. To take Obama.
Speaker 1: It's very striking. Obama came into office with very nice rhetoric,
Speaker 1: hope change everything, that will be different. What did the
Speaker 1: liberals do? They went home, We can trust their leader.
Speaker 1: He had control of Congress for two years. So what
Speaker 1: did our leader do. He betrayed the working class, the poor,
Speaker 1: the middle class. Remember it was the middle of the
Speaker 1: housing and financial crisis, so there was a Congress legislated
Speaker 1: to bailout. It had two parts. One was payoff the
Speaker 1: perpetrators of the crisis, the banks who had sold subprime
Speaker 1: mortgages knowing that they were fraud so they were in trouble.
Speaker 1: So bail them out. The other half of the legislation
Speaker 1: was give aid and support to the victims, the people
Speaker 1: whose homes were foreclosed, who lost everything, to do something
Speaker 1: to help them. The second part was barely even ridiculed.
Speaker 1: It is totally thrown out. We'll bail out the perpetrators,
Speaker 1: but not the victims. Well, people may not have read
Speaker 1: the small rent, but they could see what happened, and
Speaker 1: that was only one part of it. The betrayal was
Speaker 1: immediate and total. The working people who voted for Obama
Speaker 1: switched to Trump. Do you blame them? Throughout Vice President
Speaker 1: Biden's campaign, he has pledged to help and support the
Speaker 1: working class people you're talking about. In fact, it has
Speaker 1: been central to his campaign. Is there any part of
Speaker 1: you that believes he will rise to his promises. That's
Speaker 1: up to you. The question is whether the progressive elements,
Speaker 1: mostly the young ones, will make the same mistake they
Speaker 1: made in two thousand and eight. Trust the leader. You
Speaker 1: trust the leader, He'll go off to where the money
Speaker 1: and the powers, just as Obama did, keep his feet
Speaker 1: to the flames. Be different. I'm their possibilities with the
Speaker 1: Biden Democrats. He himself is kind of an empty show
Speaker 1: could be pushed in one or another direction. The DNC
Speaker 1: Democratic National Committee Clinton Knight donor Or added, they're going
Speaker 1: to be pulling to the right. If there's no other pressures,
Speaker 1: that's where it'll go. Since we are speaking of history
Speaker 1: and thinking about two thousand and eight, I want to
Speaker 1: go back to what happened Thursday night, as President Trump
Speaker 1: made a speech in front of the American people. Good evening.
Speaker 1: I'd like to provide the American people with an update
Speaker 1: on our efforts to protect the integrity of a very
Speaker 1: important twenty twenty election. If you count the legal votes,
Speaker 1: I easily win. If you count the illegal votes, they
Speaker 1: can try to steal the election from us. If you
Speaker 1: count the votes that came in late, we're looking at
Speaker 1: them very strongly. But a lot of votes came in late.
Speaker 1: From a historical perspective, What did you make of that speech?
Speaker 1: I mean, the speech was so outlandish that even the
Speaker 1: conservative commentators condemned it. The major media actually been broke
Speaker 1: yest parts of it because it was still crazy. Even
Speaker 1: at Fox News they weren't just echoing it the way
Speaker 1: they usually do. But what this tells us is what
Speaker 1: we already knew. Trump scored an amazing victory even by
Speaker 1: appearing for the election, considering what had just happened, Even
Speaker 1: considering the fact that he had just killed tens, if
Speaker 1: not hundreds, of thousands of Americans. Forget all the rest,
Speaker 1: Forget racing to cataclysm on the environment, huge increase in
Speaker 1: producing the dangerous arms which may destroy us, tearing to
Speaker 1: shreds the arms control regime, Forget all about that. How
Speaker 1: can a candidate show up saying I just killed tens
Speaker 1: or hundreds of thousands of you vote for me. I mean,
Speaker 1: the very fact that this can happen is an extraordinary victory.
Speaker 1: Another thing we know about Trump is he's not going
Speaker 1: to give up. He's not going to concede. He cannot
Speaker 1: accept defeat. Psychologically impossible and a little dangerous for his
Speaker 1: personal life. We don't know the details, but if he
Speaker 1: loses presidential immunity, he may be in serious trouble of
Speaker 1: that aside, it's just a psychological impossibility, so he'll pull
Speaker 1: out all the stops to try to prevent it. Now
Speaker 1: he has another couple of months in office. No matter
Speaker 1: how it turns out, he could go berserk. We don't
Speaker 1: know what he would do. It's unpredictable. What's predictable is
Speaker 1: he won't accept the Republican Party just turned into a
Speaker 1: group of groveling psychovents and not a party anymore. They'll
Speaker 1: back him to the limit. He's got groups of corporate
Speaker 1: lawyers who have been working for months to try to
Speaker 1: figure out ways to undermine the elections, or they're hard
Speaker 1: at work. Some of the what they've been doing is
Speaker 1: so ludicrous that when it's reached the courts, it's been
Speaker 1: dismissed with ridicule, even by conservative judges. But they'll keep
Speaker 1: at it. There's a lot you can do in the
Speaker 1: so called legal system with plenty of money, huge little,
Speaker 1: big law firms to try to muddy the waters. They've
Speaker 1: been described paths that might be followed to undermine the election.
Speaker 1: I don't expect it, but it's not impossible that on
Speaker 1: January twentieth, there will be who candidates claiming the presidency
Speaker 1: and the military will have to step in the way
Speaker 1: it happens and the kind of ten dictatorship the Trump
Speaker 1: is driving to Twice you've said that you can't believe
Speaker 1: someone like President Trump, who's cost tens of thousands of
Speaker 1: lives as a result of the pandemic. You can't believe
Speaker 1: that he receives so much support. And I'm curious for you,
Speaker 1: at this stage in your life, how you've tried to
Speaker 1: understand this year with over two hundred and forty thousand
Speaker 1: Americans dead and the kind of intermittent apathy that we
Speaker 1: have seen across this country. Lots of people who claim
Speaker 1: to speak of civil liberties and individual freedom, that that
Speaker 1: is more important than human life. Well that argument individual freedom.
Speaker 1: Do you have the freedom to run around at a
Speaker 1: shopping mall with an assault rifle shooting randomly? Is that freedom?
Speaker 1: Does anybody think that's freedom? Even the most extreme so
Speaker 1: called libertarian nobody thinks that's freedom. But what does it
Speaker 1: mean to run around the shopping mall without a mask?
Speaker 1: It's the same as shooting off an assault rifle. There's
Speaker 1: no freedom to do that under any conception of freedom. None.
Speaker 1: But who's pointing it out? If that's all they hear,
Speaker 1: they say, Yes, I want my freedom, get the government
Speaker 1: out of my hair, that's all they hear. Yes, that's
Speaker 1: what organizing an education is about, not just saying the
Speaker 1: words over somebody's blog, but out there constantly organizing, bringing
Speaker 1: people to understand what's in front of their nose. What
Speaker 1: I just said. It's not hard to understand. Any ten
Speaker 1: year old can understand it immediately. But if you don't
Speaker 1: hear it, you don't understand it. Just as if all
Speaker 1: you hear from Fox News roche Limbos, it's all fraud.
Speaker 1: The Chinese are trying to undermine our president. Scientists are
Speaker 1: all liars. If that's all you hear, Yes, if that's
Speaker 1: all you hear, it will sink in. That's the failure
Speaker 1: of the left to organize and educate. Of course, the
Speaker 1: Democratic Party, but you don't expect it from them. As
Speaker 1: someone who has spent a lifetime studying the abs and
Speaker 1: flows of various civilizations, this pandemic has it shaken your
Speaker 1: faith and people and people's decency. It's quite the contrary
Speaker 1: what we've seen all over the world in countries like
Speaker 1: the United States and Brazil where the governments are escalating
Speaker 1: the crisis, what we've seen is the growth of mutual aid,
Speaker 1: mutual support, people going way out of the way to
Speaker 1: help one another. Poor neighborhood where people are self organizing
Speaker 1: to bring food to some elderly person stuck in an
Speaker 1: apartment somewhere We're seeing this everywhere. It's remarkable in many places.
Speaker 1: Let's take Brazil, where there's a clone of Trump and
Speaker 1: office in Rio. In the favelas, hideous slums, miserable places.
Speaker 1: The government, of course, is doing nothing, but the slums
Speaker 1: the favelas are being organized. They're being organized by groups
Speaker 1: who are trying to provide a little bit of water
Speaker 1: to people that aren't never running water, to try to
Speaker 1: do at least minimal health services where people are all
Speaker 1: jammed together. Who's doing it the crime gangs that have
Speaker 1: been terrorizing the slums, They're the ones who moved in
Speaker 1: to do it. Others are doing it on their own.
Speaker 1: I think what it's bringing out is people's fundamental decency,
Speaker 1: even when it's beaten out of them day after day,
Speaker 1: beating out of their heads by lies and propaganda, and
Speaker 1: not countered the crime gangs and are not being organized
Speaker 1: by left activists. It's their job to do it, our
Speaker 1: job to do it. We fail to do it. You
Speaker 1: get these results. In October of this year, you were
Speaker 1: giving an interview in The New Yorker, and you've said,
Speaker 1: to tell you the truth. While I'm giving interviews and
Speaker 1: talking about things, one part of my mind is working
Speaker 1: on technical problems which are much more interesting. Well, technical
Speaker 1: is a funny word. Probably shouldn't have used it. There
Speaker 1: are problems, fundamental scientific issues in my case, about the
Speaker 1: nature of human beings and their cognitive capacities. Crucially, questions
Speaker 1: of the nature of language, the distinctive feature of humans, species,
Speaker 1: property common to humans, nothing remotely analogous in the animal
Speaker 1: world or what's its nature? Where to come from? How
Speaker 1: does it work? How is it possible that we were
Speaker 1: able to do the kind of thing we're doing, whereas
Speaker 1: the animals who happened to me sleeping at my feet
Speaker 1: can pick out a couple of sounds and raced to
Speaker 1: the door, but can't do what we're doing. Why is that?
Speaker 1: That's a problem that's serious, And yes, it's always in
Speaker 1: the back of my mind. I want to know, as
Speaker 1: an American in this country, in this odd election week,
Speaker 1: what are you most proud of? And what are you
Speaker 1: most ashamed of? I don't look at things that way.
Speaker 1: There are things that have been achieved, there have been failures.
Speaker 1: We should look back at them, see how the advances
Speaker 1: were made, where the failures were prior to compensate with them.
Speaker 1: The big failure is education and organizing, failure to reverse
Speaker 1: the forty years of neoliberal attacks which have had extremely
Speaker 1: harmful effects, and the failure to move on to a
Speaker 1: much better society and culture that is achievable, far better.
Speaker 1: It's not a matter of going back to wonderful days
Speaker 1: of the fifties and sixties. They were anything but wonderful.
Speaker 1: That were awful in many ways. In fact, we've progressed
Speaker 1: beyond them. But good on. There's plenty of potential, plenty
Speaker 1: of hope has to be gross hasn't been done enough.
Speaker 1: That's a failure. The very fact that this election took
Speaker 1: place the way it did is a sign of immense failure.
Speaker 1: As I said at the beginning, we knew the outcome
Speaker 1: of the election before election day. It was an enormous
Speaker 1: victory for Trump. Just the fact that he could appear
Speaker 1: is an enormous victory. On a sign of how much
Speaker 1: has to be done well. We have a lot of
Speaker 1: work to do. And on the subject of hope, I
Speaker 1: want to thank you for, even in this sort of
Speaker 1: bleak week that we've had, even gendered some helpe and
Speaker 1: me and I think other people listening. So I appreciate
Speaker 1: you for all that you've done and continue to do,
Speaker 1: and I thank you for your time. Thank you very much,
Speaker 1: and good luck. And that's our show. Special thanks this
Speaker 1: week to Professor G. Noam Chomsky. For those of you
Speaker 1: looking for a microphone update, I know there are some
Speaker 1: of you out there. Yes, he still has my microphone. No,
Speaker 1: he didn't use it for this episode. And I still
Speaker 1: have no idea if this microphone will ever make its
Speaker 1: way back to me. But what the hell, Biden one,
Speaker 1: Harris is our VP. I'm in a giving mood, so
Speaker 1: let's just call it a parting gift for coming on
Speaker 1: this podcast twice gnome. If you're listening the your phone
Speaker 1: is yours. To learn more about our show, visit www
Speaker 1: dot talk easypod dot com. For more conversations, I check
Speaker 1: out past episodes with doctor Cornell, West, Representative Ilhan Omar
Speaker 1: Beto or Rourke, Gloria Steinem, and many many more. You
Speaker 1: can find all of those on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Google podcast, Stitcher, Amazon,
Speaker 1: wherever you do your listening. Be sure to give us
Speaker 1: a follow on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at Talk easypod,
Speaker 1: and if you'd like to join our mailing list, you
Speaker 1: can drop me a line at Sam at Talk easypod
Speaker 1: dot Com. As always, this independently operated podcast would not
Speaker 1: be possible without our incredible team. Our executive producer is
Speaker 1: Jeannick so Bravo. Our illustrations are by Krishna Chenoe. Our
Speaker 1: associate producer is Nicki Spina. Our lead editor is Andre Lynn.
Speaker 1: Our assistant editors are Joshua Siegel, David Harding and Kevin Core.
Speaker 1: Our music is by Dylan Peck, Marketing by Patrice Lee.
Speaker 1: Our interns are Julian Erector, Grace Perkins and Ian Simmons.
Speaker 1: Graphics by Derek Gamberzak in Ethan Seneca, and the show
Speaker 1: is produced by Caroline Reebok. I'm San Fragoso. Thank you
Speaker 1: for listening to Talk Easy. God bless Joe Biden and
Speaker 1: Kamala Harris. We have a lot of work to do
Speaker 1: in this country, but for right now, a song for
Speaker 1: you and yours. It's a family favorite in the Fragoso household.
Speaker 1: Stay safe and solo, It's all you, Stevie good and
Speaker 1: run the sun Earth. It's a roadbots, not a bloom
Speaker 1: and run in me. Hate those loves the cure. You
Speaker 1: can rest your microshore and I'll be loving you always
Speaker 1: Now can't reveal the mystery up tomorrow, but in the
Speaker 1: passing will from old. Every day this is all this
Speaker 1: fun is new. You know what I say is true,
Speaker 1: and I'll be loving you always until the start, always always, Oh,
Speaker 1: didn't know the true love after nothing. Her acceptance is
Speaker 1: the winning day. Didn't know the light is giving love
Speaker 1: a guarantee, the lasting forever another day. Just as time
Speaker 1: new to rewards its the beginning and the seasons know
Speaker 1: exactly when the change. Just this kindness knows, no shame,
Speaker 1: nothing for your joint day. I'll be loving you always
Speaker 1: as then I'm living by to my But make me
Speaker 1: the past for that I must feel, or i'll know
Speaker 1: me been my mind I've left behind because I'll be
Speaker 1: loving you alway the day, always, alway late, always because
Speaker 1: love for somebody away. I've been laughing your brother to say,
Speaker 1: alway away, alway three