Speaker 1: Pushkin. I believe in my strength as a human being.
Speaker 1: I believe in my ability as a mother. I believe
Speaker 1: in myself as an artist. I have heard my true
Speaker 1: voice and I appreciate what she has to say. I
Speaker 1: was so blinded by life's traumas to see what I
Speaker 1: truly wanted in life, and now I know that's just
Speaker 1: to be happy. That was Haley Bennett. I'm zam Fragoso
Speaker 1: and this is talk easy. Welcome to the show. Do
Speaker 1: I make you happy? I'm the happiest man in the
Speaker 1: whole world. I feel so lucky. You're not mad at me. Mom,
Speaker 1: we're pregnant about what I just want to make sure
Speaker 1: I'm not doing anything wrong. You couldn't do anything wrong
Speaker 1: even if you try. How does it make you feel
Speaker 1: when you swallow something? I just like the text choose
Speaker 1: in my now. Chose I made me feel control, control.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to make you happy. Don't get back.
Speaker 1: I did something unexpected today. Bennett is both the lead
Speaker 1: and an executive producer on the project, and well, March
Speaker 1: tends to be a rather dull month at the movies,
Speaker 1: I have to say this is one worth seeking out.
Speaker 1: It will be released in theaters Friday March sixth, and
Speaker 1: is likely to expand in the weeks to follow. I
Speaker 1: say this sometimes on the show, but it's still true.
Speaker 1: Independent movies are hard to get made. They are fairly
Speaker 1: easy to support if you had the time and the
Speaker 1: means and the film is playing at a city near you.
Speaker 1: The only way a movie like this expands across the
Speaker 1: country and gets played for a wider, more diverse audience
Speaker 1: is that where it does play, you go out and
Speaker 1: support a movie like this. So I hope you check
Speaker 1: out Swallow. It is an important film about motherhood and
Speaker 1: femininity and the sort of pervasive nastiness of misogyny and
Speaker 1: what one expects in a male to female partnership. It
Speaker 1: is a very timely film. I think Hailey is fantastic
Speaker 1: in it. I don't give too many endorsements on this show,
Speaker 1: but I really do think she does something special here.
Speaker 1: So it's out Friday, March sixth. If you'd like to
Speaker 1: learn more about the movie, you can do so at
Speaker 1: our website at talk easypod dot com. It's in our
Speaker 1: show notes on the Hailey Bennett page. One thing of housekeeping.
Speaker 1: Before we get into the conversation at the end, of
Speaker 1: this episode. You'll notice that there is fifteen minutes after
Speaker 1: this interview ends of the podcast. It is not a mistake.
Speaker 1: It is not a clerical error. Something happened on Twitter
Speaker 1: over this past week. It's not something I usually would
Speaker 1: comment on or talk about, at least not within an
Speaker 1: intro or outro, but it's something I think worth talking about.
Speaker 1: So those of you listening who know what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: some words on it at the end, but for now,
Speaker 1: here is the wonderful Haley Bennett. Haley Bennett, Hello, Sam.
Speaker 1: There are so many places to start with you, I
Speaker 1: guess I want to go with right now. How are
Speaker 1: you feeling right now? I am feeling like I have
Speaker 1: endorphins that are being released because I just ate chocolate.
Speaker 1: And I'm feeling quite excited to be discussing this film Swallow,
Speaker 1: because I really like it. What did you like about it?
Speaker 1: When you said yes to it? When I read the script,
Speaker 1: I was shocked and disturbed and excited and beguiled. And
Speaker 1: I also received a letter, a very complimentary letter from
Speaker 1: Carlo talking about how much he loved me as an actress. SOT.
Speaker 1: Right then and there, at that moment, I decided I
Speaker 1: wanted to work with someone was very flattering. He was
Speaker 1: very flattering, and he really seemed to get me my range,
Speaker 1: of my range as an actress, and I was like,
Speaker 1: finally someone gets me. I've been waiting for this letter
Speaker 1: no um. So really it was the script, the story.
Speaker 1: It felt very timely. It also I connected with it
Speaker 1: on a very personal level. And then I met Carlo
Speaker 1: and he was very open and honest, and he told
Speaker 1: me that this was a story that was inspired by
Speaker 1: his grandmother who was institutionalized form habits of control of
Speaker 1: CD obsessive hand washing in the late forties, and she
Speaker 1: was institutionalized against her will and she was lobotomized against
Speaker 1: her will. And he very passionately shared this with me,
Speaker 1: and that passion throughout the process of filming never wavered
Speaker 1: or faltered. He he was explosively excited to express this
Speaker 1: story through this beautiful medium. And I also served as
Speaker 1: a executive producer. So this was the first time that
Speaker 1: I was able that I was empowered to use my
Speaker 1: voice and to shape a story in this way, and
Speaker 1: to get so involved in the filmmaking process. I'm just
Speaker 1: real grateful to Richie and you guys for providing me
Speaker 1: some solid ground to stand on, you know. Plus I
Speaker 1: have so much free time now for drawing and whatever.
Speaker 1: The best advice anyone ever gave me was fake it
Speaker 1: till you make it. Are you a faker or have
Speaker 1: you made it? I'm sorry? Are you happy? Or are
Speaker 1: you pretending to be happy? I'm happy. I was watching
Speaker 1: the film again today and I was thinking about how
Speaker 1: The New York Times wrote something. I think it came
Speaker 1: out of Mom's attack. Mom's attack, and in the article
Speaker 1: they write, swallow is so effectively disturbing because there are
Speaker 1: a few Freudian tears more primal than that of the
Speaker 1: mother figure who turns on her children or the woman
Speaker 1: who violently rejects the very idea of maternity. You became
Speaker 1: a mother two years ago now. So it's funny because
Speaker 1: I was pregnant with my daughter when I filmed this movie.
Speaker 1: I found out a day prior to filming that I
Speaker 1: was pregnant, So that really added an interesting layer. The
Speaker 1: serendipity of that, the serendipity of it, and you know,
Speaker 1: the foreign entity that you don't know growing inside of you.
Speaker 1: It's really really odd. But it was a good time
Speaker 1: for me to have a child. And it was with
Speaker 1: the right person the right time. You just I felt it,
Speaker 1: and that was something that was odd and kind of,
Speaker 1: like you said, serendipitous. And this moment, I've known when
Speaker 1: it wasn't right, and I've you know, I knew this
Speaker 1: time it was right and that I had, you know,
Speaker 1: the choice, and that it was my choice, and that
Speaker 1: I was with the right person and I was doing
Speaker 1: it for myself and not somebody else. Unlike Hunter. You know,
Speaker 1: she was sort of serving as this vessel to the
Speaker 1: air of Richie's family, of this wealthy man's family, and
Speaker 1: there's a scene in the film where she's just so
Speaker 1: unsettled by the fact that she's boring this child. And
Speaker 1: I thought that sort of the exploration of what it
Speaker 1: means to be on the verge of motherhood. It was
Speaker 1: fascinating to be also along with her on the verge
Speaker 1: of motherhood. Yeah, you know, timing seems to be everything,
Speaker 1: especially as an actor, I think. And I was kind
Speaker 1: of combing through your background and how you landed here,
Speaker 1: and I'm curious to kind of start at this moment
Speaker 1: where you leave Ohio and you move here. I believe
Speaker 1: it's two thousand and five, two thousand and six, two
Speaker 1: thousand and seven, I think maybe twousand and seven. Two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you're thirty two, yes at that time, sixteen seventeen.
Speaker 1: I was eighteen when I moved here, eighteen. I'm curious,
Speaker 1: on just on a human level, where were you feeling
Speaker 1: moving to a place you had never been before, your
Speaker 1: entire family had never left Ohio. Did you have anxiety
Speaker 1: about operating? Well, I've suffered with anxiety my entire life,
Speaker 1: and I think that that was sort of probably the
Speaker 1: catalyst to my choice to leaving Ohio, was trying to
Speaker 1: escape that anxiety, but realizing that later that there was
Speaker 1: no escaping it. So in hindsight, it was a fool's
Speaker 1: errand seems to always follow you, don't. Luckily. I love
Speaker 1: this beautiful medium of telling stories and and also being
Speaker 1: a vessel. That's funny enough. But yeah, I had a
Speaker 1: lot of anxiety, and I made so many mistakes and
Speaker 1: things for the wrong reasons. But you know, I think
Speaker 1: at this juncture in my life, I'm able to say
Speaker 1: that I'm purely doing things for me and telling stories
Speaker 1: for me. And that started with Swallow, And it was
Speaker 1: this incredible symbiotic moment where the process, met the content,
Speaker 1: and I was finding my voice as a true collaborator.
Speaker 1: You know, the It takes a long time to arrive
Speaker 1: at whatever true voice it is in terms of making something. Yea.
Speaker 1: And in looking at where you start. You have this
Speaker 1: quote that I really like you get the job for
Speaker 1: music and lyrics. Yeah, you're playing a kind of like
Speaker 1: did Sy pop Star. It's a comedy. And you said
Speaker 1: of that time, that was a horror film for me, Well,
Speaker 1: I was terrorized. Well, I would love to get into that.
Speaker 1: But there's something you said in twenty sixteen you said
Speaker 1: nothing came that easily ever again, Yeah, I think you
Speaker 1: meant like just getting the job. Yeah, but what was
Speaker 1: it like on that film at eighteen here in LA
Speaker 1: with no one that you know? Well, So I always
Speaker 1: wanted to live in New York and I don't even
Speaker 1: remember why I moved to LA. I don't know. So
Speaker 1: long ago I always wanted to live in New York.
Speaker 1: So I ended up coming to Los Angeles and two
Speaker 1: months later being sent to New York to film music
Speaker 1: and lyrics. It happened quick, which was fantastic. I was like, great,
Speaker 1: I'm living in New York now. And I was living
Speaker 1: in a terrible neighborhood. I was like, I'm fifty fifth
Speaker 1: and seventh or something at a hotel on like the
Speaker 1: hundredth floor. Oh my god, I don't know how I
Speaker 1: did it. I don't know how I survived. So I
Speaker 1: felt that, in a way, my entire career up to
Speaker 1: maybe a few years ago, had been mostly spent people
Speaker 1: telling me what to where, where to stand in what
Speaker 1: angle or position I looked the most attractive, and so
Speaker 1: I was I really thought that that was my value.
Speaker 1: Like I thought that, for instance, in that experience, I
Speaker 1: was asked to lose twenty pounds, and so I started
Speaker 1: smoking cigarettes and thought like, oh, I'm eighteen years old.
Speaker 1: This is how an eighteen year old thinks, Like, Okay,
Speaker 1: if I start smoking cigarettes and starve myself and dance
Speaker 1: for ten hours a day, then I'm going to be
Speaker 1: what everybody else wants me to be. And I think
Speaker 1: that that experience happened multiple, multiple, multiple, multiple times over
Speaker 1: the course of past let's say ten years, and that
Speaker 1: was part of I think the rebellion of wanting to
Speaker 1: make this film is that fact. Exactly did you think
Speaker 1: it was normal when I asked you to do that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I thought it was completely normal. I thought, like I'm
Speaker 1: not worthy and I'm a piece of shit, and like
Speaker 1: I need to be what they want me to be
Speaker 1: in order to survive, or in order to please, or
Speaker 1: in order to be you know what in my mind
Speaker 1: was like like hunt in Hunters instance, what was the
Speaker 1: perfect wife? Okay, well this is what I have to do.
Speaker 1: This is what actors do they this is the perfect actress,
Speaker 1: This is the perfect actress. And so I think in
Speaker 1: this performance I was able like I use that stuff,
Speaker 1: you know, like that was it's traumatizing. I think for
Speaker 1: a young person to come from complete obscurity and then
Speaker 1: be told how to be and what to look like
Speaker 1: and not really value any part of the art form
Speaker 1: in a way, I didn't know what I was doing.
Speaker 1: I just wanted to be successful, and I wanted to
Speaker 1: make movies and I wanted to tell stories. But you know,
Speaker 1: so this really, this film kind of marks a change
Speaker 1: for me. Why do you think you didn't have value
Speaker 1: at that time? Because what do you base your value on?
Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine girls and people now with
Speaker 1: social media, and I didn't know what I didn't know
Speaker 1: what to base my value. You one then, you know,
Speaker 1: I had to. I thought I was an idiot at eighteen.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't. It's like your mindset as an
Speaker 1: eighteen year old, you don't really have anything to base
Speaker 1: your self value on unless you have like an extremely
Speaker 1: well adjusted family, and I didn't, and so I was
Speaker 1: just kind of learning as I went, and that was
Speaker 1: what I learned. I learned that my value was superficial.
Speaker 1: I think both our parents split up. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: know what I mean. Should that happened for you, but
Speaker 1: it happened very early for me, yeah, just before. I
Speaker 1: think that's like there's a high percentage of people that
Speaker 1: have that experience. You said your dad was essentially a
Speaker 1: single father. You also called him a hunter. You also
Speaker 1: said he was deeply competitive, which you may have taken him.
Speaker 1: Is that still true? I think I'm extremely self critical
Speaker 1: and one of the ways that I relate with Hunter
Speaker 1: is my OCD. But probably because in my childhood I
Speaker 1: was really trying to control um, to create some kind
Speaker 1: of semblance of control. So I find all of this
Speaker 1: mental health issues stuff really quite fascinating. What were you
Speaker 1: trying to control my existence, life, my happiness? I don't
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know. I didn't know this was
Speaker 1: going to get existent. We can go to superficial. I'm
Speaker 1: happy to do. What was it like to work? No,
Speaker 1: I can't. It's just I can't. How was it like
Speaker 1: to work with then Fell? I can't. I can't. I
Speaker 1: am curious. Actually, how I went to my mom's wedding
Speaker 1: the other day, and that's pretty much. That's funny my
Speaker 1: mom's wedding. I went to my mom's wedding the other day,
Speaker 1: and I was like, asked maybe ten times what it
Speaker 1: was like to work with Denzel Washington and great, are
Speaker 1: they good? Great? Great? Well, the thing is you can't
Speaker 1: give an honest answer. I mean, what is the honest answer?
Speaker 1: I don't even know. You know better than I would.
Speaker 1: I think. What's fascinating about this time is it goes
Speaker 1: well early for you in a way that I think
Speaker 1: most people who want to act are like, how does
Speaker 1: that happen? I want that Did it go well early?
Speaker 1: I don't know. You don't think it did. Oh god,
Speaker 1: I don't know. The grass is always greener on the
Speaker 1: other side, I suppose it could could be better, it
Speaker 1: could be worse. Yeah, But what I can tell when
Speaker 1: you're looking back on it, you felt you seem to
Speaker 1: only see the mistakes. Now, Yeah, that's true, that's that's
Speaker 1: probably true. At the time, did you know what you
Speaker 1: wanted to do or where you wanted to go? No,
Speaker 1: I hadn't no map at all. I had no idea
Speaker 1: what it was to be. I still don't really. I
Speaker 1: just want to make work that's meaningful and do what
Speaker 1: I did with Swallow over and over and over and
Speaker 1: over and over again. But that's quite difficult a swell.
Speaker 1: There's no perfect answer situation. I think it's all just
Speaker 1: trial and hear. In the late two thousands and then
Speaker 1: the early twenty tents, you describe that time as like
Speaker 1: I was waiting for a pot to boil, and a
Speaker 1: watched pot never boils. You also said I was a
Speaker 1: bit like Dorothy following the yellow Brick road, except there
Speaker 1: was no good Witch. Oh God, sound very email Avril
Speaker 1: at you. Yeah again, I does that sound. I'm constantly
Speaker 1: dissatisfied and insecure and you know whatever, it's classic probably
Speaker 1: actress syndrome. I don't know. I rarely approach things with confidence. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're do you not approach things with confidence because you
Speaker 1: don't think that you're good at the thing that you do.
Speaker 1: I think you're pretty good. No, I would say, well, no,
Speaker 1: it's not even that. I think I'm really good at
Speaker 1: what I do. I'm just waiting for everyone else to
Speaker 1: figure that out. Um no, Carlo. Finally, finally, it took
Speaker 1: me seventeen minutes, but we got I think it's so great.
Speaker 1: Why doesn't anyone else? That's the truth? Um no, I
Speaker 1: it's complicated. I don't know. Human beings are complicated creatures.
Speaker 1: I believe that that's why we have an hour to talk.
Speaker 1: Do we have an hour? How long has it been?
Speaker 1: I'm sweating? Are you anxious? Do these things make you
Speaker 1: uncomfortable on camera? Makes me uncomfortable being off camera? I'm
Speaker 1: totally fine. I'm like a completely different person. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: put a camera on me and I'm like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I get paralyzed too. Well. I think that
Speaker 1: started early because I remember that when you came here
Speaker 1: and wanted to act, in terms of performing on stage
Speaker 1: and in front of people, you would break out in hives.
Speaker 1: Your lips would quiver, and I still do. I did
Speaker 1: kate La Morning show this morning, and I was like
Speaker 1: convulsing and pretending like I was okay, and I wasn't.
Speaker 1: Do you have a trick now to get out of
Speaker 1: that call therapist? M channel someone else, I guess has been,
Speaker 1: which is what somebody told me to do. I channel
Speaker 1: like Joan of arc Who do you channel? In like
Speaker 1: social situations? If I'm super uncomfortable and I don't know people,
Speaker 1: I pretend like it's I'm Gary Shandling and it's just
Speaker 1: like a talk show. So it's like every I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna try to be the most charming and funny and
Speaker 1: like idiotic version of myself. We both found like serial killers.
Speaker 1: No no, we no, we didn't. We do me maybe
Speaker 1: more so, like you kicked everyone out of the room.
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry I kicked all those people out of
Speaker 1: the room. But also the show has been happening for
Speaker 1: four years. It's one of those if Gloria Steinham was
Speaker 1: okay with it, Laura Derham was okay, I think we're
Speaker 1: gonna be okay. Oh that's fantastic. Okay, But I hate
Speaker 1: offending people. I love offending people. You do, Yeah, since
Speaker 1: when I don't think I've ever fitted anybody in my life,
Speaker 1: So that is a complete lie. Yeah, so you're unsuccessful
Speaker 1: at the thing you love to do. Actually, I'm probably
Speaker 1: good at offending my parents. Your parents are split, and again,
Speaker 1: not to quote you, but I have to quote you.
Speaker 1: One thing you wanted a few years ago that since
Speaker 1: your mother lives in Florida and your father's in Ohio,
Speaker 1: at least at this time, Yeah, one of your dreams
Speaker 1: and hopes is that you wanted to get them in
Speaker 1: the same room and have a dinner together. I'm curious
Speaker 1: because we both come from parents of divorce. How do
Speaker 1: you think it's affected your work in a way? Oh? God,
Speaker 1: their separation was a very good thing, I think. I think.
Speaker 1: I don't know if I would be here if they
Speaker 1: hadn't been separated. So I don't think that I would
Speaker 1: be alive or have a career. Um, they hadn't separated,
Speaker 1: I would wouldn't like in the middle of their hurricane. Um,
Speaker 1: So you wouldn't be here if they didn't break up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: probably not. Where would you be? Not alive? Okay? Yeah,
Speaker 1: just gone, just gone, either self inflicted or by them.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think I'd still be here even
Speaker 1: if they stayed together. I just wouldn't be as happy
Speaker 1: probably or interesting or interesting. Oh you think I'm interesting traumatized.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm definitely traumatized. That's definitely true. You know,
Speaker 1: in the ten years. This is fascinating to me, is
Speaker 1: that in two thousand and seven music and lyrics comes out.
Speaker 1: I imagine you shot it in two thousand and six. Yeah,
Speaker 1: ten years later you have this kind of year in
Speaker 1: movies that I know you're rolling your eyes, but it's
Speaker 1: the kind of year that people are like, wow, you're
Speaker 1: in Magnificent seven and grew on the train and roles
Speaker 1: don't apply and all the things seem to be happening.
Speaker 1: You're nodding like this is untrue. No, it's kind of like,
Speaker 1: I know. So it was fantastic. It was really exciting,
Speaker 1: like everything leading up to that, and then it happened. Well,
Speaker 1: I have a question before it happened, okay, which is
Speaker 1: was there a moment in that decade where you thought,
Speaker 1: I think I just got to go back home to Ohio. No,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. I mean you didn't think about
Speaker 1: giving up oh before then? Right? Oh? Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: I had contemplated my failures, probably what or what I
Speaker 1: considered my failures that other people might have considered successes.
Speaker 1: I don't know. It's all trivial, but not too in
Speaker 1: the context of my life. Why do you say it's trivial.
Speaker 1: I mean, I know why, like the movies can be
Speaker 1: rendered trivial. Yeah, but I think I'm not really asking
Speaker 1: about the movie. I'm more asking about what these things
Speaker 1: meant to you, which I wouldn't want to call your
Speaker 1: life in your experience, it's so much more complicated than that.
Speaker 1: But I guess, Okay, so what are we talking What
Speaker 1: years are we talking about? We're talking about between music
Speaker 1: and lyrics in two thousand, two thousand and seven, and
Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen fifteen. Okay, yeah, I mean those are
Speaker 1: very significant years, and I was really lucky that I
Speaker 1: didn't really spend any of those years in the spotlight.
Speaker 1: But of course, you know, I had a lot of
Speaker 1: personal failures as well along with not really being where
Speaker 1: I wanted to be in my career, and there were
Speaker 1: plenty of contemplated moments of going like what am I doing?
Speaker 1: Life just sucks, which I think most kids, and I
Speaker 1: call myself a kid, I was a kid that didn't
Speaker 1: have that kind of very stable, well adjusted childhood or
Speaker 1: the experience of going to school and going to college
Speaker 1: and making mistakes and falling down and getting back up again,
Speaker 1: Like I just didn't really have any solid ground to
Speaker 1: stand or know what was what or what my purpose
Speaker 1: was supposed to be, or if I was going to
Speaker 1: be a success, and what even being a success meant
Speaker 1: to you? What it meant to me. I knew what
Speaker 1: it meant to other people, and I knew that I
Speaker 1: probably wasn't a success. It was kind of like, right
Speaker 1: after I didn't music and lyrics, I was offered record
Speaker 1: deals and they wanted me to be a pop star,
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, but if I ever produced music,
Speaker 1: I would want it to be something soulful and from
Speaker 1: my heart, and I would want to produce the music
Speaker 1: and I would want to write the songs. And that's
Speaker 1: not what people wanted. So again it was like conforming
Speaker 1: to what other people wanted rather than what I wanted.
Speaker 1: And it's been a long road to going Okay, what
Speaker 1: do I want? What do I really want? And then
Speaker 1: I thought like, what do other people want from me
Speaker 1: that will look like I'm successful and what will make
Speaker 1: me happy? I only knew that I was just unhappy.
Speaker 1: Did the year twenty sixteen make you happy. I mean,
Speaker 1: I had incredible experiences on the sets that I was
Speaker 1: lucky to be on. I don't mean to sound ungrateful
Speaker 1: in any way for those experiences, because they were wonderful
Speaker 1: at the time. They like, you know, it's like an addiction.
Speaker 1: You know, you're like, oh, I got a job. It's
Speaker 1: it becomes an addiction. Just being cast in a movie
Speaker 1: can become an addiction for an actor, especially a young actor,
Speaker 1: going oh my god, somebody says I'm valuable, somebody says
Speaker 1: I'm worth something. Somebody says that I'm good at what
Speaker 1: I do and gives me that validation. So everything's kind
Speaker 1: of been a learning experience, and I've worked with incredible actors,
Speaker 1: but still and like not fulfilling in the way that
Speaker 1: I expected or wanted it to be. Like, yeah, there
Speaker 1: were some little performances that I did my best to
Speaker 1: do good work, but still I never felt like fulfilled
Speaker 1: or I always kind of felt kind of let down.
Speaker 1: And then there's all that high ape and then the
Speaker 1: movie comes out and it's never as good as you excited,
Speaker 1: it's never as bad as you think it will be,
Speaker 1: and it's never as good as you expected to be
Speaker 1: and doesn't really like, are those performances going to get
Speaker 1: me recognized to the types of filmmakers that I want
Speaker 1: to work with, Do they really change anything? Are they
Speaker 1: really like am I gonna be able to? And I
Speaker 1: guess in a way they did, because Carlos saw my
Speaker 1: performance and Girl in the Train, and I think Swallow
Speaker 1: is one of the most significant performances and the closest
Speaker 1: I've come to getting in touch with my creative source.
Speaker 1: That's truly not practically it's in this industry. It's so
Speaker 1: financially driven. People are adding up numbers and telling you
Speaker 1: if you're meant to be cast, And truly, the reason
Speaker 1: that I was able to do this film is because
Speaker 1: it was made for under a million dollars. I would
Speaker 1: have never been cast in this movie had it had
Speaker 1: twenty million dollars backing. It's a lot of people making
Speaker 1: decisions that have nothing to do with the art itself exactly,
Speaker 1: and so that's always in the back of your mind
Speaker 1: as an actor. So simultaneously you're trying to make decisions
Speaker 1: that are going to be significant enough to enable you
Speaker 1: to do the things that you really want to do,
Speaker 1: which is hard. Which is hard. You're basically trying to
Speaker 1: strike a balance. It's a terrible, strange and difficult relationship
Speaker 1: to have as an actor with your own career and
Speaker 1: at every level, you know, even when you're just turning out,
Speaker 1: or when you're figuring things out, or when you found
Speaker 1: some success and then you're demonized, and it's really complicated.
Speaker 1: It's a really wonderful business. Actually the business side of
Speaker 1: it isn't. The business side of it's terrible. But then
Speaker 1: like the heart of what we do, and my experience
Speaker 1: working on this film, Swallow was the greatest experience of
Speaker 1: my career. And that was because it had nothing to
Speaker 1: do with the business. And I have to thank Carlo
Speaker 1: for that, because Carlo was so generous and kind and
Speaker 1: had so much humility to allow us ownership, allow me
Speaker 1: to join him as a true collaborator listen, and we
Speaker 1: were able then to transcend beyond our traditional roles, which
Speaker 1: was go to America they say, and to reveal myself
Speaker 1: in a different way that I have never really been
Speaker 1: able to reveal myself someone that I think spiritually is
Speaker 1: an alignment with what you want, and it's certainly in
Speaker 1: alignment with what I want as a filmmaker. Is Terrence Malick,
Speaker 1: who I know has meant a great deal to you.
Speaker 1: I love Terrence. Yeah when you two met, did that
Speaker 1: feel like you had found someone meeting my chocolate? Okay? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I felt a true kinship and I felt like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: he sees me and his films are like poetry, and
Speaker 1: he's such a gentle kind, pure artist. It was amazing.
Speaker 1: It was a completely unconventional process that I was cast.
Speaker 1: So the process of being cast, it was extremely unconventional
Speaker 1: and a sense that so Francine Meisler was the casting director,
Speaker 1: who I adore, and I think she's casting something else,
Speaker 1: but I don't remember what it is, or she's just
Speaker 1: been a huge advocate of mine. Um. But basically, it
Speaker 1: was an interview like what we're doing right now, and
Speaker 1: it was a filmed interview essentially about my life things
Speaker 1: I wouldn't even talk about here. But I wanted to
Speaker 1: reveal myself in this way because again I want to
Speaker 1: tell the truth through my art. And so we did
Speaker 1: this interview and then I was asked for so the
Speaker 1: callback was this monologue, and I was really nervous. I
Speaker 1: was like, oh God, So he asked to do the
Speaker 1: monologue in four different ways, and it was a really
Speaker 1: kind of intimate feeling monologue to switch from anger to sadness,
Speaker 1: from angst to elation. And so I moved past that audition,
Speaker 1: I guess and I was like, Okay, well, this is
Speaker 1: never going to happen. And then I received my third callback,
Speaker 1: which was then to meet Terrence and to do a
Speaker 1: screen test with Chivo his DP. My Love was all
Speaker 1: improvisation and weird ho. I flew to Austin, Texas, and
Speaker 1: then if all went well, I was to meet the Wizard.
Speaker 1: And that was the fourth phase, which was I made
Speaker 1: it past the improvisation, and then I met Terence and
Speaker 1: we sat at a Mexican restaurant in Austin, and I
Speaker 1: had a compass that I had bought from my then husband,
Speaker 1: and he had said, oh, I bought a compass for
Speaker 1: my wife too, and we kind of bonded over that
Speaker 1: and we were extremely canned. It felt like really real
Speaker 1: and really candid, and he really was interested to know,
Speaker 1: like he's interested in human beings. It's not about the
Speaker 1: business or anything like that. And I was cast in
Speaker 1: the film and then later not uncast but cut from
Speaker 1: song to song. But I had an incredible, incredible experience,
Speaker 1: and I learned so much from my with Terrence, but
Speaker 1: it was heartbreaking again to be like, you know, I'll
Speaker 1: never see my work. And he ended up calling me
Speaker 1: and saying, well, they're going to sue me if I
Speaker 1: don't cut the movie down. It's thirteen hours, and I
Speaker 1: wish that your beautiful work could be seen. But he
Speaker 1: later on wrote the letter to anton Fuqua. He hand
Speaker 1: typed a letter and sent it to anton Fuqua, who
Speaker 1: then cast me in The Equalizer. And I have a
Speaker 1: really tragic story about that, but we could move on
Speaker 1: from that. But anyway, I still have the type letter
Speaker 1: from Terrence that he wrote. I have a photocopy of
Speaker 1: the letter that he wrote to Antoine Fuqua, and that
Speaker 1: was considered to me a huge success, and the things
Speaker 1: that he said in that letter I have engraved in
Speaker 1: my heart. As someone who spent time with Terrence Malock,
Speaker 1: what does he represent you as a person in the
Speaker 1: world when you think of him? What are the kind
Speaker 1: of adjectives an angel? He's an angel, He's kind, he
Speaker 1: does his own thing. You know, he's original, and I
Speaker 1: don't think that he follows any rules. Have you tried
Speaker 1: to adopt those principles. Well I suppose, Yeah, I'm trying.
Speaker 1: He moved to England and live in a tiny village
Speaker 1: that feels so far away and removed from Hollywood, and
Speaker 1: I'm really happy. I'm curious about this because you've moved there,
Speaker 1: you have a kid, you're married. I'm not married. Actually
Speaker 1: you're not married, okay, but we do have a child,
Speaker 1: and he has my soulmate marriage scam anyway, So you
Speaker 1: have a partnership. Yeah, true partnership. Yeah. You said earlier
Speaker 1: in this talk that at eighteen, when you get your
Speaker 1: first movie, and really up until maybe a year or
Speaker 1: two ago before this film, you said, a lot of
Speaker 1: my life was being told to stand there, look this way,
Speaker 1: turn this way, be a certain kind of thing. It
Speaker 1: was a commodity, you know. I felt sort of like
Speaker 1: a commodity. Yeah, there was like a commodification of you
Speaker 1: as an entity to be bought and sold. I don't
Speaker 1: think that's where you seem to be now, But I
Speaker 1: think what you were actually talking about is other people
Speaker 1: assigning value and telling you that is the thing that
Speaker 1: is going to make you feel valuable. Now that you're
Speaker 1: thirty two, on the other side of this in some
Speaker 1: way with the kid, Where is your value coming from? Um?
Speaker 1: That was a deep breath. I think it's coming from
Speaker 1: this sense of having survived adversity. I believe in my
Speaker 1: strength as a human being. I believe in my ability
Speaker 1: as a mother. I believe in myself as an artist.
Speaker 1: I have heard my true voice and I appreciate what
Speaker 1: she has to say, whereas before I wasn't really I
Speaker 1: didn't know that I was capable. I was so probably
Speaker 1: blinded by life's traumas to see what I truly wanted
Speaker 1: in life. And now I know that's just to be happy,
Speaker 1: that that it's not going to be based on a job,
Speaker 1: that my happiness definitely isn't going to come from a job,
Speaker 1: and that that's all. You stop believing in the shit,
Speaker 1: the hype, because you know, you know, it's it's just
Speaker 1: learning from experience. And I think that that has also
Speaker 1: been like from taking myself out of that kind of game. It's,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just not a part of my life.
Speaker 1: Myself value, I don't know. I think the point is
Speaker 1: to stop thinking about yourself, to step back and stop
Speaker 1: thinking about yourself, and that kind of as you know,
Speaker 1: I started looking at myself as a commodity rather than
Speaker 1: like a human being with a life. And you know,
Speaker 1: some days I don't feel as confident, and that's okay too,
Speaker 1: Like sometimes I feel like crap, and sometimes I feel tired,
Speaker 1: and sometimes I feel like I am never going to
Speaker 1: be where I want to be. But then you say, well,
Speaker 1: that's okay, it's okay, it's just today to broaden this
Speaker 1: out before we leave, and to not just think about ourselves. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're in this moment right now in this industry, but
Speaker 1: this is really not about the industry. I'm curious how
Speaker 1: you feel in terms of where we're at in the
Speaker 1: me too of it all, especially now as a parent
Speaker 1: and as an actress who worked in the mid two
Speaker 1: thousands and is now working in twenty twenty. Do you
Speaker 1: feel there's been improvements? Do you believe the hype so
Speaker 1: to speak? I mean, I can only really speak for
Speaker 1: Mike's experiences, and I choose to work with great people,
Speaker 1: and I have an incredible partner, and so I feel
Speaker 1: really safe, and I put myself in positions to feel
Speaker 1: safe and to feel supported, and the fact that there
Speaker 1: is this spotlight on me too, and I think people
Speaker 1: behaving in ways that are respectful. I think that there
Speaker 1: is definitely more of a conscious behavior. And so whether
Speaker 1: that is, you know, just a lucky thing, or whether
Speaker 1: it's you know, putting myself in the positions to be safe,
Speaker 1: I think it's kind of goes hand in hand. That
Speaker 1: was the first time you answered very politely and carefully.
Speaker 1: There's more, you know. It's funny because we have to
Speaker 1: go now, But this podcast I do. I do it
Speaker 1: also as someone who's like making movies themselves, but also spiritually. Um,
Speaker 1: the goal of the show is to not be full
Speaker 1: of shit. That's that's like, honestly the basic and you've
Speaker 1: done a great job of it. You have well, I
Speaker 1: have been um criticized for being maybe too honest in
Speaker 1: my life. I don't. I think that's a good thing
Speaker 1: in my life in this business right well, I think
Speaker 1: it's a good thing because people now more than ever,
Speaker 1: really know when someone's full of shit. But do they care?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I guess it depends on
Speaker 1: who you're talking about. It does depend on who you're
Speaker 1: talking about. I'm interested before this person walks in, what
Speaker 1: do you want for yourself moving forward? I want to
Speaker 1: work in Europe. More. And that's just like geographically because
Speaker 1: it makes sense for my life. I want to work
Speaker 1: with people that make me happy and that have the
Speaker 1: same vision, and I want to give my daughter a
Speaker 1: really good, happy life. I want her to have self
Speaker 1: value that comes from a deep sense of herself. I
Speaker 1: want her to know herself so that she doesn't base
Speaker 1: her value on what other people want from her. So
Speaker 1: that kind of stability I think. I think stability is
Speaker 1: really important for children. And I want to give some
Speaker 1: good performances and make our films pase cast me. I
Speaker 1: think it's all gonna work out, um, and I really
Speaker 1: do wish that for you and your daughter. Thanks. Maybe
Speaker 1: one day she'll listen back on this and think, all right,
Speaker 1: I think my mom did a great job. I have
Speaker 1: a garden. Oh a garden. I just put up a
Speaker 1: wash line in our backyard that I'm very excited about
Speaker 1: using in the spring. I'm sure it's gonna be wonderful.
Speaker 1: I had to get that one in May. Thank God.
Speaker 1: This podcast would not have been complete without the wash line.
Speaker 1: Haley Bennett, thank you very much. Thanks, and that's our show.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to that episode. But Hayley Bennett,
Speaker 1: but I wanted to talk about just for a moment.
Speaker 1: Here's something that unfolded over the past few days. For
Speaker 1: those who are not on the social media platform, there
Speaker 1: is a film writer on the internet who used the
Speaker 1: N word privately in a direct message to someone. She
Speaker 1: used that word four years ago in a direct message
Speaker 1: that was then earlier this week shared publicly, and what
Speaker 1: followed was the kind of bullying and harassment that is
Speaker 1: common in this space. And then, after hours of bullying,
Speaker 1: this film writer apologized profusely, but it wasn't enough because
Speaker 1: hours after that, as the harassment and criticism continued, she
Speaker 1: posted a video online apologizing, once again, clearly broken up
Speaker 1: by what she had done and what she had written privately,
Speaker 1: and above all, how she had been treated in the
Speaker 1: intervening hours. There is blood on her arms in the video,
Speaker 1: and we later learned that she was rushed to the
Speaker 1: hospital and as of right now is okay and is recovering.
Speaker 1: And boy, there have been a lot of responses online
Speaker 1: to her language, and what I think is important to
Speaker 1: note is that this all began with hateful language. It
Speaker 1: began by someone using a word that they shouldn't have used,
Speaker 1: and it was used by someone believing it was okay
Speaker 1: to casually use this word, and it's not okay. No
Speaker 1: one thinks it's okay. But there have also been a
Speaker 1: lot of responses that believe we need to match this
Speaker 1: hateful language with hate, that that is the answer. And
Speaker 1: then there are other people, mainly white people, who believe
Speaker 1: we need to meet this moment with kindness and empathy
Speaker 1: and compassion. I've read a bunch of these tweets much
Speaker 1: more than I should have, and I have to say
Speaker 1: I think neither are exactly right. I'm not satisfied personally
Speaker 1: by either of them. There is one person on the
Speaker 1: Internet that I found that I want to shout out,
Speaker 1: and it's a film critic over at Roger Ebert dot com.
Speaker 1: His name is Robert Daniels. I do not know Robert,
Speaker 1: but you can follow him at eight twelve Film Reviews,
Speaker 1: and I thought what he wrote was especially nuanced. He said,
Speaker 1: equating someone knowingly using the N word or participating in
Speaker 1: anti blackness as a mistake, or normalizing it in any
Speaker 1: way really isn't the avenue to start on. He continued,
Speaker 1: bullying shouldn't happen full stop, but purely asking for kindness
Speaker 1: or asking a black person to respond with kindness or
Speaker 1: empathy when the N word has knowingly been used is
Speaker 1: an oversimplification from some very smart people. There's space for
Speaker 1: criticism and yes, anger, without insidious dog piling. And it's
Speaker 1: frustrating that when there are components of this that really
Speaker 1: should be thoughtfully examined, there instead either being reduced to
Speaker 1: pure rage or a bumper sticker, And that I think
Speaker 1: is exactly right. I think what Robert kind of nailed
Speaker 1: is something I've been grappling with personally and thinking about.
Speaker 1: It is a behavior that is unsustainable. It is a
Speaker 1: purity of thought and action that is unrealistic, and it
Speaker 1: is a kind of morality that is so narrow that
Speaker 1: I don't know anyone truly, anyone that could possibly fit
Speaker 1: into it. What I'm trying to say is the dialogue,
Speaker 1: if we're even going to have a dialogue that resembles
Speaker 1: anything that is kind of healthy, needs to be more nuanced.
Speaker 1: It needs to be open to imperfection. In fact, it
Speaker 1: needs to be ready and expecting imperfection, because that's all
Speaker 1: we have. All we have is a life where we
Speaker 1: have to accept the faults within us, the faults within
Speaker 1: other people, the faults within our friends, our family, our parents,
Speaker 1: our lovers. Yeah, I I am so deeply distraught and
Speaker 1: terrified by this climate. Not because it doesn't favor people
Speaker 1: who look like me, but because it doesn't favor people.
Speaker 1: It's not in favor of human life, of idiosyncrasies and imperfections.
Speaker 1: And it's not about race, although in this case it
Speaker 1: is about race. It's someone who said something they know
Speaker 1: they shouldn't have said. And the problem is it took
Speaker 1: until this moment, until a private message was shared publicly,
Speaker 1: for that person to publicly recognize that that kind of
Speaker 1: language is not acceptable. And I can't speak for her,
Speaker 1: so maybe internally with her friends, with the website that
Speaker 1: she ran, she acknowledged her shortcomings on the matter, and
Speaker 1: we all have shortcomings, especially on race. And I just
Speaker 1: hope if we learn anything from this that it really
Speaker 1: shouldn't take. It really shouldn't take someone publicly in pain,
Speaker 1: someone in such pain that they feel the only option,
Speaker 1: the only avenue they have, is to post about it
Speaker 1: on Twitter. She didn't do it for attention. She did
Speaker 1: it because she didn't have any other options, or at
Speaker 1: the very least she believed she didn't have any other options.
Speaker 1: I mean, how sad is that think about these conditions
Speaker 1: and then you wonder how did we arrive here at
Speaker 1: this moment with this treatment? And unfortunately, I think a
Speaker 1: lot of it has to do with people that look
Speaker 1: exactly like me. Even though half of my family is
Speaker 1: listening to this and they're like, we're Mexican, what are
Speaker 1: you talking about? No one has ever cared about us.
Speaker 1: But it's because of folks who look like me that
Speaker 1: have made the conditions so untenable, that have silence voices
Speaker 1: for so long, that there is real anger and rage.
Speaker 1: And the anger and rage is justified. And the people
Speaker 1: who criticize this woman for using this word are justified.
Speaker 1: They're allowed to do that, and they ought to do that.
Speaker 1: But what we need to figure out as a people
Speaker 1: is how we can give criticism while still letting people
Speaker 1: grow and change and learn. I think most people want that.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's controversial for me to say that
Speaker 1: on here, and I'm certainly open to learning. I know
Speaker 1: I'm wrong so often, My god, I am wrong all
Speaker 1: the time. And if you're listening to this, you're probably
Speaker 1: wrong all the time too. And it's okay, It's okay.
Speaker 1: And I don't know when it happened. On Twitter and
Speaker 1: on Facebook and on Reddit and every other forum were
Speaker 1: words a dominant feature, but we made it not okay.
Speaker 1: We reduce the complexity of our lives. We streamlined and simplified,
Speaker 1: we cut out anything that was messy, and what we're
Speaker 1: left with is not a person. It's not a person.
Speaker 1: And so I really appreciate what Robert said on Twitter,
Speaker 1: and I really hope more of us can follow in
Speaker 1: his footsteps in terms of responding with nuance. It's not
Speaker 1: good enough to say that we need to treat this
Speaker 1: woman who said this thing with kindness and empathy. It's bullshit.
Speaker 1: That's not enough because doing that reduces the pain that
Speaker 1: one feels when they see that word used. It glosses
Speaker 1: over the trauma that people have in seeing that word.
Speaker 1: And on the other end, it's not okay to yell,
Speaker 1: to harass, to push someone to the brink of trying
Speaker 1: to take their life. No one learns that way. And
Speaker 1: I'm sorry for the long winded introduction to what is
Speaker 1: a very lovely, warm episode with Haley Bennett, but it's
Speaker 1: what's on my mind this week, and I don't have
Speaker 1: the answers. I've never pretended to be someone that has
Speaker 1: the answers, but I know what we're doing now is
Speaker 1: not going to work. We're gonna need to figure this out,
Speaker 1: and I hope we can do it together, and I
Speaker 1: hope we can do it in a way that feels
Speaker 1: even a little bit civilized. If you're still here listening,
Speaker 1: I appreciate you listening. This is a scary moment and
Speaker 1: a complicated moment. Like you probably, I'm still processing and
Speaker 1: figuring out how I want to exist in the world
Speaker 1: and in this weird online space. So I hope you
Speaker 1: stick around while we continue figuring that out together. Until then,
Speaker 1: I'm San Frcoso. Thank you for listening to talk easy.
Speaker 1: We'll be back here next Sunday morning. Have a good week, everyone,
Speaker 1: Almost to photos. F