Speaker 1: Pushkin, let's just Talk Easy. I'm Samforgo, so welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. Hey everyone, thank you for joining me on
Speaker 1: this very special episode of the podcast. Today, Talk Easy
Speaker 1: turns five years old, and now I suddenly feel old,
Speaker 1: just saying that if you're listening right now, you've probably
Speaker 1: made that possible. Since twenty sixteen, we've released over two
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty episodes with artists, activists, politicians, and once
Speaker 1: my mother. The goal being to create a program that
Speaker 1: looks backwards and forwards, to slow down and process, and
Speaker 1: for five years we've done that as an independent show,
Speaker 1: no institutional backing, no corporate apparatus. Everyone at Talk Easy
Speaker 1: is here for the space we create each week for
Speaker 1: the guest and most importantly you. That's why this month,
Speaker 1: to mark the five year occasion, we're launching a Patreon
Speaker 1: campaign where listeners like you can support the show through
Speaker 1: monthly or one time donations. Of course, Talk Easy will
Speaker 1: always be free. I don't believe in putting a premium
Speaker 1: on our archives or charging per episode for the sake
Speaker 1: of accessibility. Our doors will remain open to anyone that
Speaker 1: wants to listen. But if you can afford to support
Speaker 1: the labor and love that goes into this show every Sunday.
Speaker 1: We are asking you to do so at patreon dot
Speaker 1: com slash talk easy. That's patreon dot com slash talk easy.
Speaker 1: I know these are trying time, so if you can't
Speaker 1: make a financial contribution, that's all right. Simply raising awareness
Speaker 1: for this campaign or sharing the show with the friend
Speaker 1: is plenty helpful. We are a listeners supported program and
Speaker 1: the best way for new people to find our work
Speaker 1: is through you. So I thank you in advance for
Speaker 1: the love and support, however that takes shape. I appreciate
Speaker 1: you showing up for listening and getting behind what we
Speaker 1: do here. Now, to celebrate the anniversary and the launch
Speaker 1: of this campaign, I wanted to revisit a few of
Speaker 1: my favorite passages from the past five years, moments and
Speaker 1: stories and bits of wisdom that have stayed with me.
Speaker 1: Maybe you'll recognize some of these pieces. To start, let's
Speaker 1: go to the fall of twenty nineteen, where I sat
Speaker 1: with documentarian Errol Morris. He's built a career out of curiosity,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to get to the heart of that
Speaker 1: before playing a clip from his film Gates of Heaven.
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed this special episode. And now here's
Speaker 1: five years of talk. Easy if we can go back
Speaker 1: to you leaving college wanting to make movies, then being
Speaker 1: you know a PI. Where do you think this sort
Speaker 1: of inherent curiosity and people comes from for you? I
Speaker 1: don't know. Maybe everybody is the same, but everybody really
Speaker 1: isn't the same. There's this idea of truth, pursuit of truth.
Speaker 1: Did I always have it? I think I did have
Speaker 1: it in some form or another. I remember, and I
Speaker 1: sometimes use this as an example. I wrote a book
Speaker 1: called the Ashtray, and in the Ashtray, I do, in
Speaker 1: fact use this as an example. I got into a
Speaker 1: bet with kids who lived in the neighborhood. It's something
Speaker 1: I learned from my brother, my older brother six years
Speaker 1: older than myself, Noel, who was quite brilliant, a computer
Speaker 1: scientist before people were computer scientists. But you're supposed to
Speaker 1: ask people which is further West Los Angeles or Reno, Nevada.
Speaker 1: Is there a wrong answer? Yes, indeed there is a
Speaker 1: correct answer and an incorrect answer. So now the current
Speaker 1: thought is, well, everybody's right, it's just a different way
Speaker 1: of thinking. Well, no, it's not a different way of
Speaker 1: thinking Reno is further west than Los Angeles. So I
Speaker 1: made this bet for a dollar with this kid, and
Speaker 1: he said los Angeles. I said, no, Reno. So I
Speaker 1: went and I got my rand McNally's Atlas of the
Speaker 1: World and open to the appropriate page. And clearly Reno
Speaker 1: is further west than Los Angeles. So the kid said
Speaker 1: to me, well, lines of longitude don't cross the water.
Speaker 1: I guess they end at the coast. I say, no,
Speaker 1: they don't. That's raw. The argument went on and on
Speaker 1: and on. He refused to pay me my dollar. And
Speaker 1: what was the lesson that I took away from all
Speaker 1: of this is that you can be right, but unless
Speaker 1: you're bigger than that person, you're not going to get
Speaker 1: your dollar. The dollar is not going to be forthcoming.
Speaker 1: But even in that, there's an obsession, very very simple,
Speaker 1: but very powerful obsession with truth. That there's a world
Speaker 1: out there, and in that world things have happened or
Speaker 1: they haven't happened, and it's our job to figure out,
Speaker 1: wherever it's possible, what's true and what's false. These are
Speaker 1: the kinds of questions that have endlessly fascinated me. In
Speaker 1: the Thinboo line, which involved the shooting of a police
Speaker 1: officer in Dallas. There's a question you have to answer.
Speaker 1: A car traveling down this lonely road in West Dallas, cold,
Speaker 1: very cold night in late autumn. The police stop a
Speaker 1: car traveling without headlights. Officer walks up to the driver's
Speaker 1: side of the vehicle and is shot multiple times. Great
Speaker 1: car speeds off into the night. A drifter is arrested, tried, convicted,
Speaker 1: and sentenced to death. In the Texas Electric Chair, I
Speaker 1: enter this story years after the fact, I start investigating.
Speaker 1: It becomes after a year of investigation, they convicted the
Speaker 1: wrong man. The chief prosecution witness was the real killer.
Speaker 1: This is not up for grabs. There was a car
Speaker 1: on that roadway, There was someone seated in the driver's
Speaker 1: seat driving that car. That driver pulled a gun out
Speaker 1: and shot this police officer. A fact of the matter.
Speaker 1: A real world in which things happen or don't happen.
Speaker 1: And what's my job? My job is to figure it out,
Speaker 1: to figure out what actually did happen on that roadway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what is it in my makeup that would make me
Speaker 1: want to answer that kind of question? How the hell
Speaker 1: do I know? All I know is that I felt
Speaker 1: absolutely compelled to answer it. Can we want something for
Speaker 1: a second? What if I said no, Wow, too bad?
Speaker 1: Skippy had been dead Quarto Hole two or three years.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, I don't want to think of one
Speaker 1: of my very very favorite scenes I've ever put on film.
Speaker 1: You know, you miss your pits, just like you do
Speaker 1: any of the family. I don't know what happened to
Speaker 1: this last little kitty was here. All the cats have gone.
Speaker 1: There's no cats around there, no animals, no nothing. I
Speaker 1: miss that little black kitten so much. It was wonderful.
Speaker 1: All of a sudden boom, no animals around. Somebody in
Speaker 1: the neighborhood or something that's doing away with him. This
Speaker 1: is a clip from Gates of Heaven with Florence Rasmussen.
Speaker 1: It's from my first film. It's your first recorded interview
Speaker 1: on Yes, and it was also at the very very
Speaker 1: beginning of my work on Gates of Heaven Day two.
Speaker 1: I had no idea. I probably still have no idea
Speaker 1: what I'm doing. But then I've really had no idea
Speaker 1: what I was doing, except a kind of odd persnicketiness
Speaker 1: about what I should be doing and what I shouldn't
Speaker 1: be doing, a hatred of standard documentary, which kind of
Speaker 1: persists to this day, a desire to let people speak
Speaker 1: without interrupting them. I had a fight with a camera
Speaker 1: woman and the sound recordist because when I first met Florence,
Speaker 1: she was sitting in her car with a nurse's aid
Speaker 1: watching this pet cemetery. This was about two pet cemeteries
Speaker 1: and pet cemetery that was going out of business. The
Speaker 1: pets were to be exhumed moved in refrigerator trucks to
Speaker 1: a very successful pet cemetery north at San Francisco, NAPA.
Speaker 1: She was there in the car and set up the camera,
Speaker 1: and Florence at one point said here today gone tomorrow.
Speaker 1: And the sound record has interrupted her and said she
Speaker 1: said here today, gone tomorrow, right, And she said no wrong.
Speaker 1: That was the end of both of them. I decided
Speaker 1: to replace both of them when I started shooting again.
Speaker 1: And I often thought what irritated me more here today,
Speaker 1: gone tomorrow right? The evanescence of everything, the limited duration
Speaker 1: of human existence, a kind of existential sadness. I did
Speaker 1: not want to hear her corrected. Was I more annoyed
Speaker 1: that she had been interrupted? That was plenty annoying, Or
Speaker 1: was I more annoyed that here today, gone tomorrow not wrong? Right,
Speaker 1: very much right. That was the beginning of it. I
Speaker 1: kept firing people because this persists. Actually, I'm quite amazed
Speaker 1: it persists throughout my career. People think they have a
Speaker 1: better idea of how to do things than I do. Well,
Speaker 1: wait a second, I'm the director. No, don't I get
Speaker 1: certain prerogatives as such, like the decision of Adam make
Speaker 1: the damn movie. Yeah, that never ends. There's always a struggle.
Speaker 1: At least there's a struggle from me. If you want
Speaker 1: to do things differently, if you want to create eight
Speaker 1: something that hasn't been seen before, they're always going to
Speaker 1: be people telling you you're doing it the wrong way.
Speaker 1: American dharma is a great example of this sort of thing.
Speaker 1: I showed this. It's called the Nieman Fellows as a
Speaker 1: fellowship at Harvard. I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. I call
Speaker 1: it the Junior College Harvard. It's about a mile down
Speaker 1: the street. The Nieman Fellowship offers fellowships to reporters around
Speaker 1: the country. They can come to Harvard study whatever they
Speaker 1: want for a year or two years. So American Dharma
Speaker 1: was shown to the Nieman Fellows. Maybe this is too
Speaker 1: much of a backstory. Forgive me. One of the fellows said,
Speaker 1: now you know, you know that's not the correct way
Speaker 1: to interview Stephen Bannen. Oh No, I don't know there
Speaker 1: is correct way to interview anybody. It's what stands behind
Speaker 1: the interview, which is an issue, the desire to find
Speaker 1: things out, the desire to learn something you don't know,
Speaker 1: the desire to explore an issue in a way that
Speaker 1: perhaps it hasn't been explored before. Well, what I see
Speaker 1: in this and what I keep coming back to this
Speaker 1: morning rewatching the movie is part of her monologue, which
Speaker 1: Roger Ebert called something that Faulkner wish he could have
Speaker 1: wrote in his initial view in seventy eight. God, I
Speaker 1: haven't read it first years. It's really great, she says,
Speaker 1: I've been through so much. I don't know I'm staying alive. Really.
Speaker 1: I had from my age. If you're young, it's different.
Speaker 1: But I've always said I'm never going to grow old.
Speaker 1: I've always had that, and people that I I care
Speaker 1: how old I am, they don't believe me because people
Speaker 1: at my age is real don't get around like I do.
Speaker 1: You did this interview when you were twenty nine thirty. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's been forty one years. You are seventy one now. Yes,
Speaker 1: do you see some of yourself and her at this
Speaker 1: point in your life. I saw a lot of myself
Speaker 1: in her forty years ago, and I still do. We're
Speaker 1: all struggling trying to figure out the world in our
Speaker 1: place in it. She's one of my perfect existential characters,
Speaker 1: a person left alone, feeling deeply betrayed by one loved
Speaker 1: one after another, confronting the very real possibility of imminent death.
Speaker 1: I was incredibly moved by her. I loved her. I
Speaker 1: still do and feel deeply grateful that he was willing
Speaker 1: to talk to me. I feel that in this interview,
Speaker 1: I call it to shut the fuck up school of interviewing.
Speaker 1: You let people talk, you don't interrupt them, You encourage them.
Speaker 1: I did a piece I don't know if you saw it,
Speaker 1: an airmail, which is Graydon Carter's new publication on interviewing.
Speaker 1: On the nature of interviewing. You're there to encourage people
Speaker 1: to tell you something. You're not there to create an adversary.
Speaker 1: You're not there to ask adversarial questions. Although people like
Speaker 1: to think that's the purpose of interviewing. I don't know
Speaker 1: what purpose interviewing has, but I do know that the
Speaker 1: interviews that I like to do are very, very, very
Speaker 1: different in character. You want to hear something, You want
Speaker 1: to create a place where people feel free to talk
Speaker 1: to you and to express something that they may not
Speaker 1: have expressed before. That was Errol Morris. He's the director
Speaker 1: of films like The Thin Blue Line, Gates of Heaven,
Speaker 1: an American Dharma. Next up is a short story from
Speaker 1: one of my favorite authors, the one and only Elizabeth Gilbert.
Speaker 1: I'm still amazed. I have certain cousins that I look
Speaker 1: at and I think, what's it like to be satisfied?
Speaker 1: Like to just be like, here's my high school boyfriend,
Speaker 1: you know, we got married, here's our kids, here's our house.
Speaker 1: And I stare at them and look for signs of misery,
Speaker 1: and I don't see it. Like they have really lovely
Speaker 1: lives and they're lovely people, and I'm like, what's that like, Liz.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they really appreciate you going to these family
Speaker 1: gatherings and you sitting down and thinking where's the misery?
Speaker 1: Where is it? Why? Well, Actually, what I want to
Speaker 1: say is like, what's it like to not feel like
Speaker 1: you're on fire, you know, like to not feel like
Speaker 1: you're on fire and the world's on fire and you
Speaker 1: have to go be in the fire of the world.
Speaker 1: I'm marvel at it. And I remember I have one
Speaker 1: cousin who I really love, and she has a beautiful
Speaker 1: life that she's created with her partner that she's been
Speaker 1: with forever and her kids. And she said to me like,
Speaker 1: if I if I had one life to live that
Speaker 1: wasn't mine, I think I would like it to be yours.
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, I've got maybe I said,
Speaker 1: what percentage of that of you is that? And she's
Speaker 1: like maybe two percent. And I was like, that's cool,
Speaker 1: because I've got like two percent of my life that
Speaker 1: would want to be. So it seems like we're living
Speaker 1: the life we want, you know, there's just a little
Speaker 1: bit of curiosity of what would have been like to
Speaker 1: take a totally different path. But she doesn't really want it,
Speaker 1: and I don't really want her life, but but I
Speaker 1: do wonder what would it be like to just be
Speaker 1: like this is fine. You know, this is fine here,
Speaker 1: this place is fine, this person is fine, this job
Speaker 1: is fine. That's just not what I'm like. If people
Speaker 1: like you and I could do it, it would be wonderful,
Speaker 1: but since we can't, it would be agony. Well, I
Speaker 1: also just think it's what your nature is. And there's
Speaker 1: a little anecdote that's a neat prey love about this
Speaker 1: guy who I met when I was an Indian and
Speaker 1: he was from a dairy farm in County Cork in Ireland,
Speaker 1: grew up in a very conservative, very traditional, very rural
Speaker 1: Irish setting, pretty restricted world. And but he was on fire.
Speaker 1: You know, he was on fire from the time he
Speaker 1: could remember he was. He was on fire. He was hungry,
Speaker 1: he was full of yearning, longing, agitation, emotion, craving, desperation,
Speaker 1: all of it. And he went out in the world,
Speaker 1: threw himself and paled himself on the world and had
Speaker 1: various adventures and misadventures, and then finally, in his thirties,
Speaker 1: found his way to this ashram where I met him,
Speaker 1: and he's just it. It's so funny that people you
Speaker 1: meet in places like that. You know, it's like, here's
Speaker 1: this guy who's got a face like the map of Ireland.
Speaker 1: You know, he's just like he looks like he should
Speaker 1: be like mucking out sheep, and he's got the accent
Speaker 1: to match. And here he is, like on his knees
Speaker 1: in at four am, chanting in soundscrit you know, like
Speaker 1: with the rest of us, hungry weirdos, trying to find something.
Speaker 1: And he told me that he went home to see
Speaker 1: his father, who is a man who had, like my father,
Speaker 1: had no interest really in leaving the farm, and was
Speaker 1: perfectly happy having each day look like the day before.
Speaker 1: And he was trying to explain to his dad about
Speaker 1: what he had discovered in India. And they're sitting there
Speaker 1: and they're staring at the fire, and he says to
Speaker 1: his dad, go, understand, you know, I found this this
Speaker 1: path of meditation and prayer and and it's it's an
Speaker 1: amazing guy. You know it. It really stills your mind.
Speaker 1: It quiets your mind. That's what he said. It really
Speaker 1: quiets your mind. And his father, without lifting his eyes
Speaker 1: from the fire, says, I've got a quiet mind, son,
Speaker 1: like I didn't have to leave my house, like I've
Speaker 1: got a quiet mind. And Sean was his name. Sean said,
Speaker 1: but I don't, bah, you know, I don't and and
Speaker 1: and I don't either. And if you don't, you have
Speaker 1: to go find whatever you have to find to satisfy it.
Speaker 1: Are people actually listening to this now? They aren't listening
Speaker 1: right now, we're not doing this live, but they will
Speaker 1: listen once it airs. And of course I've never heard
Speaker 1: a podcast. So I'll come back on your show again.
Speaker 1: By the way, I'm gonna do part two. Yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: do part three, part four. You're great, Okay, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: do everything in my life now and you should include this.
Speaker 1: And the thing is about joy coming on the show
Speaker 1: with you, I have found the experienced joyous. I know
Speaker 1: I've talked a lot, but I think that's what you
Speaker 1: want from me. But you're very good at your job.
Speaker 1: You're great at your job. You're great at your job. Great,
Speaker 1: You're almost a throwback. I feel like I'm on some
Speaker 1: hip FM channel and it's nineteen seventy one. That was
Speaker 1: fran Leebowitz and Jeff Garland. Next, I wanted to play
Speaker 1: this piece from our talk with actor Coleman Domingo. You've
Speaker 1: probably seen him in Fear of the Walking Dad or Euphoria.
Speaker 1: At an early age, he left his family and friends
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, where he grew up to go out west.
Speaker 1: He landed in San Francisco with the hopes of becoming
Speaker 1: an actor. What he became was himself. Here's a little
Speaker 1: piece of his story. I think I seem to start
Speaker 1: writing things because I'm frustrated with the form of something
Speaker 1: like if I see something like a boy and his
Speaker 1: Soul was written because I didn't particularly love solo shows,
Speaker 1: and I thought, well, this is the way I think
Speaker 1: a solo show could work, right, that I would be
Speaker 1: interested in. You know, i'd see this show. That's a
Speaker 1: good reason to do something. Yeah, you know, I don't
Speaker 1: like anything else. I'll write it. I'll write something I
Speaker 1: think that I try. That's why I'm gonna start a podcast.
Speaker 1: Exact No, no, you can have my microphones exactly. You know.
Speaker 1: But this is a common thread in the in the
Speaker 1: little I know about you, which is there are traditional
Speaker 1: narratives and traditional formats to create something and to tell
Speaker 1: a story. And in particular, I know you have talked
Speaker 1: about in the past about you coming out is something
Speaker 1: that rather your story varies from the common conception of
Speaker 1: the preconception people have about people coming out, especially people
Speaker 1: of color come Absolutely, that's and I think it's funny. Um,
Speaker 1: one of my was it a soul? It was a
Speaker 1: boy in a soul. There was a critic in San
Speaker 1: Francisco who said she doubted the validity of my story
Speaker 1: because from what she knows from watching documentaries that it's
Speaker 1: very hard to come out in the African American community.
Speaker 1: And I was like, well, what the this is the
Speaker 1: whole reason why he is What the fuck? I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: isn't it the point of feeder and also to add
Speaker 1: your voice to the chorus? And I thought, who's going
Speaker 1: to doubt the validity of my own story? You know? So?
Speaker 1: And I wrote a real scathing letter to her and
Speaker 1: then but I didn't send it because I didn't think why,
Speaker 1: because it didn't matter. She was gonna feel the way
Speaker 1: she's gonna feel no matter what should have sent it.
Speaker 1: I just thought it was fascinating that she thought. And
Speaker 1: also she was also a white woman, and I thought
Speaker 1: it was very interesting thing that the story that she
Speaker 1: would like my story to be, instead of me saying
Speaker 1: that this is um trying to inspire some mothers that
Speaker 1: it's you can come out and your family you can
Speaker 1: be met with love. You you use the word fascinating,
Speaker 1: but you mean bullshit, right, bullshit? Okay, Well yeah, you
Speaker 1: and I try to you know you need me to do.
Speaker 1: I try to go hiw you go low for me.
Speaker 1: I didn't hear that whole sentence until I did. I
Speaker 1: have to go low. That's such a terrible deal. Oh,
Speaker 1: but we sometimes you need that balance. You need somebody
Speaker 1: to go low for you. You You can know it. I'm
Speaker 1: see I'm the white person. That's a wingman. That's a
Speaker 1: good wingman. I'll take care of it, thank you very much,
Speaker 1: No problem. Really. I do want to know, though, Um,
Speaker 1: your older brother was like a ladies man. Oh he
Speaker 1: still is, still is. Yeah, what was the interaction with
Speaker 1: your family? I know he was very supportive about you
Speaker 1: coming out. Yeah, but what was it like? What did happen? Um?
Speaker 1: It's actually I wrote about it in a boy a Soul,
Speaker 1: and it really did happen that way. It was like
Speaker 1: a game telephone. Um, I came out. I came out
Speaker 1: to my mom. No, first, I came up to my
Speaker 1: brother outside of a strip club in Philadelphia because he
Speaker 1: was trying to take me there to you know, to
Speaker 1: get some you know, and I was laughing and silly
Speaker 1: about it, and so I came out to him outside
Speaker 1: and he said, I love you. I'm glad you can
Speaker 1: tell me, and I was sobbing because it meant the
Speaker 1: world to me. And what a setting. Yeah right, it's
Speaker 1: true and it was absolutely true. But it makes sense
Speaker 1: because you're what he wanted of you was being pushed
Speaker 1: to its extreme at a strip club. That's exactly it.
Speaker 1: And you know, the thing that I pride myself and
Speaker 1: my family own. We try to be as authentic with
Speaker 1: each other as possible. And I knew that I was
Speaker 1: living in San Francisco, and I just didn't want there
Speaker 1: to be an abyss between us, you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: I think that you know, the more that I was like,
Speaker 1: you know, living my best life, they weren't a part
Speaker 1: of it. And that's just not the nature of our family.
Speaker 1: So I knew that by doing that, I wanted to
Speaker 1: get closer to them. And then I got a call
Speaker 1: from my sister, who my brother's promised that he wouldn't
Speaker 1: tell anybody. And a week later, my sister calls me
Speaker 1: and she tells me she's mad at me, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: what she said, I can't believe you told Rick first.
Speaker 1: She was just mad because I told my brother first
Speaker 1: about her and then we laughed about it. She said,
Speaker 1: I think you should tell mom. I called my mom
Speaker 1: and I told her I had something to tell her,
Speaker 1: and she was like, what's wrong. Did you get somebody pregnant.
Speaker 1: I'm like, no, are you in jail. No, I'm not
Speaker 1: in jail, you know. So she had she thought it
Speaker 1: was going to be all these other extreme things. And
Speaker 1: then I came out to her and she took a
Speaker 1: nice pause and she said, Okay, I love you. The
Speaker 1: first thing. She wanted to make sure. She knew that
Speaker 1: she had to think about it, but she loved me.
Speaker 1: But you know, she said, I'll actually do it, but
Speaker 1: you know, I can't tell your stepfather this. I said, Okay, okay, Mom.
Speaker 1: So I hung up. Twenty minutes later, the phone rangs
Speaker 1: and my mother says, Jay. They call me Jay. That's
Speaker 1: my nick name. Jay. Well, I told your stepfather about
Speaker 1: what we talked about. I said what, No, what she said? Oh?
Speaker 1: I said, what did he say? He said, hold on?
Speaker 1: He gets on the phone. Jay. I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, pop, Oh,
Speaker 1: well you know what me and your mom talked about. Yeah, wollo.
Speaker 1: He's from the South. That's why I was stud to you. Who.
Speaker 1: I just want you to know when you know you're
Speaker 1: a good boy, and he beat around the bus for
Speaker 1: bed and then he finally said, UM, I love you.
Speaker 1: There's nothing you can tell me that would make me
Speaker 1: stop loving you. And I knew that they have that
Speaker 1: much love for me. And look about a month later,
Speaker 1: my mother came out to San Francisco to visit me,
Speaker 1: because you want to see almost like see who I
Speaker 1: was and see if I was still the same boy
Speaker 1: that she knew, and I was. Of course, she just
Speaker 1: and I think it. I think they're people and our
Speaker 1: families that are supposed to open us up and challenge
Speaker 1: the norms of what we think. And then she came
Speaker 1: out there and we walked around the castro and nothing
Speaker 1: was unusual to her. She was like, oh, I thought
Speaker 1: I had one idea about what this is, but now
Speaker 1: you're showing me so much more. I know that my
Speaker 1: son is my son. I know that Her world just expanded,
Speaker 1: and then it expanded so much she actually went we
Speaker 1: walked into um how about she said, do you want
Speaker 1: to drink? I'm like, oh, yes, come on, I want
Speaker 1: to take my son for a drink. And we go
Speaker 1: into some bar. Oh my god, I don't want to
Speaker 1: go into this bar. We're going too this bar and
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, you know, just some some gay bar
Speaker 1: and the castro. I'm like, oh my god, I hope
Speaker 1: nobody's doing anything. What's happening. I was like, So I
Speaker 1: was so conservative. I was like, what's going on? Is
Speaker 1: there a bathroom? Hold on, let me go use the
Speaker 1: bathroom and see how it's clean. Right. So I did
Speaker 1: came back. I come back. She bought a couple of cocktails,
Speaker 1: talking to people, and she was just what she wanted to.
Speaker 1: You wanted to get to know me even more so
Speaker 1: I know my world and it kept us close up
Speaker 1: until both my mom and my stepfather both passed away
Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, like six months apart from
Speaker 1: each other. They were very much in love and yeah,
Speaker 1: but I know that I had people who are really
Speaker 1: truly people who really loved me, and well, like I
Speaker 1: say again, they were simple people. And at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I just want to know that that
Speaker 1: I was a good person and I was making a
Speaker 1: good impression on the world. You know, be a successful
Speaker 1: human being in the world. And it doesn't mean like
Speaker 1: success like the way we think of success. I think
Speaker 1: it's just by like having a job, making a difference
Speaker 1: having a sense of who you are spiritually. You know,
Speaker 1: that's it basic. That was a good story. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I got emotional there. Yeah, it does. It does because
Speaker 1: it's like and I forget because there these are things
Speaker 1: that I don't know if you bury them. But it's like, like,
Speaker 1: no one asks me to talk about that on the daily,
Speaker 1: so I have no you know, I'm like, suddenly it
Speaker 1: hits a um, a button, a string or something that
Speaker 1: you realize it's probably always a little bit right here,
Speaker 1: but you don't really deal with that. But you ask
Speaker 1: something that's so personal, I'm like, oh my god, Okay, wow, yeah,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show. Welcome Jesus Chris. I just did
Speaker 1: more research on you get people to cry. I would
Speaker 1: have said, no, thank you. I'm not doing that show.
Speaker 1: I imagine. I'm like, I'm not in tune with my feelings. No,
Speaker 1: thank you. That's a personal choice you have to make.
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do? Or do you see yourself
Speaker 1: in five years? Where do I see myself in five years?
Speaker 1: I'll answer that. If you've answered that, I'm dead. No
Speaker 1: really you know it? Uh? Elliott Smith, Okay, yeah, did
Speaker 1: you talking about so in five years? What are you
Speaker 1: doing in five years? It's your part of the bargain.
Speaker 1: You get a hold up, Um, I think he'll still
Speaker 1: be interviewing you. It's one long interview. That last part
Speaker 1: was from an early early episode with comedian Eric Andre
Speaker 1: in case that wasn't clear, and thinking about his question
Speaker 1: to me. The future is a frequent topic of conversation
Speaker 1: on this show, but to even imagine the future, we
Speaker 1: have to square away our past, not only where we
Speaker 1: come from, but who we come from. So next up
Speaker 1: are three people trying to make work that honors where
Speaker 1: they come from. First, here's comedian Hassan Minhaj explaining the
Speaker 1: cultural significance of speaking truth to power in his comedy
Speaker 1: I come from a culture in a community, and I'm
Speaker 1: a child of immigrants where there's just certain things you
Speaker 1: do not really say. And if you even look at
Speaker 1: like modern political discourse and say India where my family's from,
Speaker 1: political discourse, conversations about religion, these things are very heated
Speaker 1: arguments where sometimes even racial and ethnic and religious violence
Speaker 1: breakout over them. Right, So, watching Chris Rock or watching Carlin,
Speaker 1: watching John Stewart criticize the war in Iraq in front
Speaker 1: of people to me was just so revolutionary and brave,
Speaker 1: and I thought about why that is, and I realize
Speaker 1: what attracted me to the art form of comedy was
Speaker 1: this idea about power and control. And I don't mean
Speaker 1: power in the sense of I want power over other people.
Speaker 1: That's the common thing of I'm going to be in
Speaker 1: the room where it happens. I'm going to pull the
Speaker 1: levers and be with people in show business because that
Speaker 1: will make me feel better. I will wield power over others.
Speaker 1: It's not that is actually power to control my destiny.
Speaker 1: I can say and do what I want, and when
Speaker 1: I have this microphone, and if I'm good enough at comedy,
Speaker 1: I can create my own little world where I can
Speaker 1: tell jokes and I can tell stories and I can
Speaker 1: speak from my heart and I don't have to be
Speaker 1: afraid about somebody else having power or control over me.
Speaker 1: Because when I first started doing comedy, I was working
Speaker 1: at Safeway bagging groceries, and my manager had control over me.
Speaker 1: And then I got fired. Then I worked at OfficeMax
Speaker 1: and I had to sell printers and I got fired.
Speaker 1: And the few times that I felt liberated, I felt
Speaker 1: power and control over agency. I felt agency over my
Speaker 1: life was when I was on stage, and I still
Speaker 1: have that. I still feel that way every time. Even
Speaker 1: there's some episodes that we've done on the show that
Speaker 1: feel like third rail issues or I feel nervous to do.
Speaker 1: I remind myself the reason why I even got into
Speaker 1: to this was to have the ability to say that stuff.
Speaker 1: And I know that word power and control they're very negative,
Speaker 1: but I don't mean it like that. I don't want
Speaker 1: to have control over you. I don't want you to
Speaker 1: have control over me. You know what I mean. I
Speaker 1: don't want you to tell me that I have to say,
Speaker 1: welcome to office Max, how can I help you take
Speaker 1: it to the max? I don't want to do that anymore, Brian,
Speaker 1: like my manager used to make me say that, I
Speaker 1: don't want you to have control over me anymore. I
Speaker 1: want to be able to say whatever I want to say,
Speaker 1: and I don't mean that again. Comedy now has become
Speaker 1: this language of the provocateur. I'm not in that business.
Speaker 1: I've never kind of been that guy of like, what
Speaker 1: are the words I can't say? I want to say
Speaker 1: that just to say that I want to connect and
Speaker 1: I want to feel understood, and that has nothing to
Speaker 1: do with being a provocateur or a rabble rouser. I
Speaker 1: just want to connect with people, you know, and make
Speaker 1: it make people feel less alone. I do think I
Speaker 1: come from a line a woman that rise like the phoenix.
Speaker 1: This is Lena Way, no matter what the scenario is.
Speaker 1: You know my grandmother, you know who is a person,
Speaker 1: particularly speaking to my mother's mom, who literally left the
Speaker 1: South because she's from Arkansas and was not it was
Speaker 1: not a fun time to be a black girl in
Speaker 1: the South the time she was a teenager. She's like,
Speaker 1: she literally got married to get the fuck out of
Speaker 1: the souuse like, but she was too young her my
Speaker 1: great grandmother, to sign her marriage like license to prove
Speaker 1: to prove the marriage. Because she was like, I'm getting
Speaker 1: the fuck out of here and I'm going to Chicago.
Speaker 1: And as she went and she stayed and she traveled,
Speaker 1: and she was like this like fly person that even
Speaker 1: though she had kids, she was like, I'm not about
Speaker 1: to stay in this house. She's like, y'all know how
Speaker 1: to arn y'all know how to cut figure it out.
Speaker 1: I'll be back, you know. And so you know, God
Speaker 1: would have it that I would be raised in the
Speaker 1: house with my grandmother, which is the same house my
Speaker 1: mother was raised in and be raising that village of
Speaker 1: people also too. I was raised in the neighborhood where
Speaker 1: black you know, the house across the street that I
Speaker 1: from us had a little stick left by burning cross
Speaker 1: because the family Cross was the first black family moved
Speaker 1: to that neighborhood. And so but when I was there,
Speaker 1: it was all black neighborhood. So it's like, then those
Speaker 1: are the people, and those are my neighbors, the Watsons.
Speaker 1: I won't forget, you know what I'm saying, Like, that's
Speaker 1: the community I grew up in. So I just kind
Speaker 1: of I think it's more so it's more stemmed from,
Speaker 1: you know, from the people I was around and from
Speaker 1: from whence I came, you know. And I think there's
Speaker 1: also a thing I'm very much connected to my history.
Speaker 1: You know, I haven't done the whole inntstry dot com thing.
Speaker 1: I don't know what part of Africa my ancestors were
Speaker 1: kidnapped from. But it's not lost on me that I
Speaker 1: am a descendant of people that survive the Middle Passage.
Speaker 1: It's like this shit that I go through or deal
Speaker 1: with or that people throw at me. It ain't as
Speaker 1: bad as that. It's not as bad as slavery, it's
Speaker 1: not as bad as Jim Crowe, not as bad as
Speaker 1: a Rice movement. So that's where I come from. That's
Speaker 1: the bloodline that I'm from. How can I not walk tall?
Speaker 1: I have to just as a as a salute to them.
Speaker 1: I feel like they deserve at least that that if
Speaker 1: they have to go through all that, that like I
Speaker 1: shouldn't when I walk, I shouldn't bow. I like to
Speaker 1: distinguish between country and government. This is Dolores Worth, trailblazing
Speaker 1: labor leader, civil rights activist, and community organizer. To remind
Speaker 1: people that when the founding fathers of our government came
Speaker 1: to America, there were people here, our Native Americans, and
Speaker 1: they had their own civilizations. And so we have to
Speaker 1: kind of remind people that the United States was a
Speaker 1: brown country when people from Europe came here, whether it
Speaker 1: was the Spaniards or the English or the French, there
Speaker 1: was a country here of brown people. So our founders
Speaker 1: or occasions, so they were the founders of our government,
Speaker 1: not our country. Okay, but we know that those founders
Speaker 1: that came here from Europe, that they founded the United
Speaker 1: States of America by rebellion. They stood up against the English,
Speaker 1: and they stood up against the French and everybody else.
Speaker 1: You know, So we have a government that was formed
Speaker 1: by rebellion. And so maybe when we see ourselves as
Speaker 1: Americans sense of the United States of America, that we
Speaker 1: have to realize that that is part of our heritage.
Speaker 1: Your friend and poet from Delano, his name's Louise Foundas,
Speaker 1: and he once wrote that revolution starts with self love.
Speaker 1: If you're a member of an oppressed people, you have
Speaker 1: to develop self respect, and that starts by developing some
Speaker 1: affection for who you are. You love your family and
Speaker 1: you say, okay, but why does the world regard them
Speaker 1: as inferior? Why does the world regard them as ugly
Speaker 1: when in my eyes they're quite beautiful. That's so important
Speaker 1: because the type of education that I'm talking about also
Speaker 1: inspires a children of color when they know about their history.
Speaker 1: Because if you don't know about your history, then it's
Speaker 1: very hard for you to have an identification, and the
Speaker 1: only thing that you hear are the kind of slurs
Speaker 1: and the attacks and the racial remark that are made
Speaker 1: against you and your people. But when you know your
Speaker 1: own history, you can have that dignity that you deserve,
Speaker 1: and we should have. Every person should be have a
Speaker 1: sense of dignity about who they are. And so again,
Speaker 1: if people have that dignity, then no matter what they
Speaker 1: tell them, they can actually fight back and realize, hey,
Speaker 1: it's not me. There's nothing wrong with me. There's something
Speaker 1: wrong with the person that's attacking me, and it's calling
Speaker 1: me names and making these remarks against my ethnic group.
Speaker 1: It's not me, it's them. They're the ones that are ignorant.
Speaker 1: They're the ones that are wrong, and it's not me.
Speaker 1: They can stand up and defend themselves. So that historical
Speaker 1: aspect of everyone is very important. My grandfather came from
Speaker 1: Mexico in Durngo in the late forties and early fifties,
Speaker 1: and he worked in the farms and fields of Baker's
Speaker 1: Field and then Fresno. And I didn't share this with
Speaker 1: you before we started recording, but I wanted to say
Speaker 1: it that I know in my heart I wouldn't have
Speaker 1: the great luxury of doing the work I do without
Speaker 1: his sacrifice. And I must say yours, So I thank
Speaker 1: you very much. Oh you're welcome. And by the way,
Speaker 1: my great grandfather came from Dura angle also, so we
Speaker 1: may come from the same tribe in Durda angle. Who
Speaker 1: knows thank you very much, say, it's so wonderful to
Speaker 1: be able to support you things of value. To send
Speaker 1: money to organizations that you just know or doing great
Speaker 1: work is so wonderful. I mean, and people should understand
Speaker 1: that they can send five dollars. I mean if everybody
Speaker 1: just who felt, oh, really cric but a couple of
Speaker 1: bucks and then so they don't. People have a real
Speaker 1: generous thing in our genes that when we hear something
Speaker 1: worthy or someone who needs something who's really worthy, or
Speaker 1: an organization that does great works that needs help. I
Speaker 1: think probably millions of people think I wish I had
Speaker 1: more to give. A dollar is plenty to get. If
Speaker 1: everybody who had the impulse did that, that'd be so great.
Speaker 1: So it's a pleasure to support you. I love your work.
Speaker 1: The conversations that you have evoked wonderful truths from the
Speaker 1: people that were interested in And you have an uncanny
Speaker 1: way with people. You have an uncanny way with saying
Speaker 1: something that is exactly right for the moment, which I
Speaker 1: kind of wonder what the hell of europe to is
Speaker 1: just great. It's just great. You have a gift. You
Speaker 1: have a gift. It should be supported. That was from
Speaker 1: one of the very best actors we have today, the
Speaker 1: inimitable Holland Taylor. If you'd like to support our show,
Speaker 1: you can do so at patreon dot com. Slash talk
Speaker 1: Easy will also include a link in our show notes
Speaker 1: and in the description of this episode. It's true what
Speaker 1: Holland said, any amount helps, any amount means the world
Speaker 1: to us here at the show. Our last passage comes
Speaker 1: from actor Alan Alda. This was back in July of
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. He was eighty two at the time. And boy,
Speaker 1: this episode, it's a really special one to me, and
Speaker 1: well it kind of told me that that we needed
Speaker 1: to keep doing this. It was a clarifying moment sitting
Speaker 1: with Alan. I'm not sure I knew this when it happened,
Speaker 1: but I can hear it now listening back to the tape.
Speaker 1: Maybe you'll hear it too. It starts with a discovery,
Speaker 1: which is about all you can help for in doing
Speaker 1: this work. Here's Allan, I just figured this out a
Speaker 1: while back. I found out a few years ago that
Speaker 1: I have face blindness. The technical term is prosopagnosia, and
Speaker 1: there's a little fluke in your brain and you have
Speaker 1: trouble recognizing faces. So you and I might have dinner
Speaker 1: and have a really good conversation for three hours, and
Speaker 1: the next day I wouldn't recognize you. Twice I didn't
Speaker 1: recognize my own daughter. So I think, if you walk
Speaker 1: into a room and you know, some of the people
Speaker 1: are going to be people you've seen before and expect
Speaker 1: you to know who they are, and some will be
Speaker 1: pure strangers, but they all look like strangers, that can
Speaker 1: make you anxious. And I have a feeling I've been
Speaker 1: anxious all my life and didn't know that I had
Speaker 1: face blindness until a little why. I didn't know it existed.
Speaker 1: Most people don't know it exists. So I say, I'm sef.
Speaker 1: I say they say we met, we met before, we
Speaker 1: had dinner together, or we worked together in that committee.
Speaker 1: And I say, I'm really sorry, I have face blindness.
Speaker 1: They say, oh, yeah, I do too, and then they
Speaker 1: think it's some kind of excuse. I got face blindness.
Speaker 1: I got the fusiform gyrus or whatever it's called, is
Speaker 1: screwed up in my head. That is, Um, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: this is an unusual interview. I usually don't give my
Speaker 1: entire medical history. Well, you know, that's actually one of
Speaker 1: the things we require of people on the show's that
Speaker 1: they deliver that to us. I hope I'll be able
Speaker 1: to get my driver's license after the will and your passport. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I you know. My my natural gut response to that,
Speaker 1: as I feel bad, I don't know that. I don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not. I'm not trying to pity you. Which part
Speaker 1: do you feel bad about? I feel bad that that
Speaker 1: is part of your moment to moment, day to day
Speaker 1: interactions with other human beings. Well, I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that because I wouldn't want to
Speaker 1: leave viewer anybody else with that feeling, because you should
Speaker 1: know that. Part of my confidence about life is that
Speaker 1: anything like that that happens to me becomes to me
Speaker 1: a chance to solve a puzzle, to figure my way
Speaker 1: out of a maze, and I enjoy that. It's fun.
Speaker 1: Once in a while it gets frustrating, but I cope
Speaker 1: with it. And having a problem to solve is it's
Speaker 1: like like when you write something. Every everything you write
Speaker 1: has a writing problem, and you don't throw the pin
Speaker 1: down to say, oh, I have no I have no
Speaker 1: inspiration today. You solve the problem is fun. I aim
Speaker 1: towards having fun. We're only here for a short time.
Speaker 1: People think it's a long time. It's not very long.
Speaker 1: And no matter how long you'll last. The lowest person
Speaker 1: we know of his one hundred and twenty two was
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty two. And I just read an
Speaker 1: article or actually just a headline. I don't know what
Speaker 1: the gist of it is that there they have found
Speaker 1: some indication that one hundred and twenty two is not
Speaker 1: the limit. And I know. I was told on one
Speaker 1: of the shows we did by about a dozen people
Speaker 1: who were experts in longevity that with all kinds of
Speaker 1: changes that are going to be taking place and artificial organs,
Speaker 1: better nutrition, genes, therapy, computer replacements for parts that will
Speaker 1: routinely live to two hundred or two hundred and fifty,
Speaker 1: even when we do, that's not a long time, because
Speaker 1: it's never long enough the idea that you're going to
Speaker 1: be extinguished. When you finally realize that that is the
Speaker 1: most factual part of the most factual fact about life,
Speaker 1: then you think, well, that wasn't very long. It seems
Speaker 1: like it's going to last forever when you're when you're
Speaker 1: a kid, but then you start to realize it's it's
Speaker 1: it's shorter. So if it's not going to last that long,
Speaker 1: I think it would be a good idea to feel
Speaker 1: good about things as much as you can. Why spend
Speaker 1: that time in misery or anxiety. So if there's a
Speaker 1: puzzle to solve, have fun solving it. At your age,
Speaker 1: I don't know. Do you feel okay with the end? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: Well I don't want it to happen, but I don't
Speaker 1: I don't mind it. Things change radically for me when
Speaker 1: I almost die, I didn't she lay fifteen years ago,
Speaker 1: two thousand and three. Yeah, I was within two years
Speaker 1: of I'm sorry. I was within two hours of dying,
Speaker 1: and I had an emergency operation and I woke up alive,
Speaker 1: and it was a really good feeling. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I thought, when they put the mask on
Speaker 1: me and gave me the anesthetic, that could have been
Speaker 1: it I could have been I could have never awakened
Speaker 1: from that. So I had like a rehearsal of dying,
Speaker 1: and I realized I didn't have a moment of thinking, oh, God,
Speaker 1: what's going to happen? Is there a heaven? And none
Speaker 1: of that came to mine. The only thing that came
Speaker 1: to mind was I want to write a note to
Speaker 1: my wife to say goodbye, tell her I love her.
Speaker 1: So the producer of the show wrote down what I said,
Speaker 1: and then he lost a note. So you're kidding, You're kidding. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would. I would have faced utter disappearance. Did that
Speaker 1: really happen? Yes, So I didn't worry about dying while
Speaker 1: I thought I might be dying, and I woke up
Speaker 1: not worried about dying but really glad to be alive.
Speaker 1: So it's possible to have both of those thoughts at once.
Speaker 1: I do everything I can to stay alive and healthy,
Speaker 1: but I think I'll be extinguished at one point and
Speaker 1: that'll be that. That's the way it works. The real
Speaker 1: pain is for the people who were left. That's a
Speaker 1: sad thing. Do you feel satisfied with what you've done
Speaker 1: in your life? Satisfied as a funny word for what
Speaker 1: I feel. Some of the things I've done, I came
Speaker 1: pretty close to doing the best I could do. I
Speaker 1: made a mistake trying to do them and made a
Speaker 1: mistake in the way I did them. So some things
Speaker 1: I'm happy about, some things not in terms of artistic
Speaker 1: things I've done. But what are you talking about? I
Speaker 1: just know that there are movies and plays that I've
Speaker 1: done that I didn't do a good job, and so
Speaker 1: I can't say I'm satisfied with it, except I'm satisfied
Speaker 1: in that once I do something, whether it's good or bad,
Speaker 1: I let it go. So I'm content. Satisfied means I'm
Speaker 1: pleased with myself. But I'm content because I'm I'm always
Speaker 1: trying to do a better job next time. That's where
Speaker 1: I put my thinking. I really don't look back on
Speaker 1: the past much. I'm polite when people want to talk
Speaker 1: about mash, but if I could have my way, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't talk about it at all. Alan, can I can
Speaker 1: I ask you something that is purely out of genuine curiosity? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I don't know you. I mean you don't know me.
Speaker 1: We're I'll stensibly two strangers on the telephone for the
Speaker 1: last hour, doing our best to amuse one another. Are
Speaker 1: you going to ask me out? Yeah? Actually? Could I
Speaker 1: have your phone number? I'll write you for a date sometime. Um,
Speaker 1: so go ahead. What's we're strangers. Yes, And my genuine
Speaker 1: question is in this hour, question for question, answer for answer.
Speaker 1: I've been struck by how god damn positive you are?
Speaker 1: So what are you curious about? I'm curious how how?
Speaker 1: How how do you get to that place in your life?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I have no idea. I am pretty positive.
Speaker 1: It doesn't mean I don't get low and I have
Speaker 1: been depressed at times anxious, So those things aren't very positive.
Speaker 1: But maybe because I know if I'm not positive and
Speaker 1: work really hard to stay on the on top of things,
Speaker 1: I'll be under them. So I have a you know,
Speaker 1: I've got through those nine years not working as an actor.
Speaker 1: It's just with blind survival. I just was going to survive.
Speaker 1: I once was when I was twelve. I was with
Speaker 1: my parents at a hotel in La Joya, California, and
Speaker 1: they were asleep and I went down to the beach
Speaker 1: to swim. It was a little cove and there was
Speaker 1: nobody there but me, and I didn't know there was
Speaker 1: I didn't know what an undertow was or rip tight
Speaker 1: or whatever it was. I got caught in and the
Speaker 1: ocean pulled me out from the shore, and then I
Speaker 1: was underwater the whole time. Then they would a wave
Speaker 1: would pick me up and slam me on the shore,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was fun. And then it would
Speaker 1: pull me out again and slam me on the shore.
Speaker 1: And then I thought, well, okay, this has been fun,
Speaker 1: but now I'm getting tired. I'm going to get out now,
Speaker 1: and I couldn't. Every time I tried to get out,
Speaker 1: the water would pull me back. The ocean would pull
Speaker 1: me back and slam me hard on the shore. And
Speaker 1: then I thought, if I don't do something, I'm going
Speaker 1: to die here. This is going to drown me. And
Speaker 1: I started digging my fingers into the stand and pulling
Speaker 1: myself with my fingers up the beach. Took several minutes
Speaker 1: before the ocean couldn't pull me back in again. Maybe
Speaker 1: I got something out of that experience, or maybe I
Speaker 1: had something about me that enabled me to survive that
Speaker 1: experience and all the ones that come along since then.
Speaker 1: But that's how I approach it now. I just dig
Speaker 1: my fingers in and pull myself out of it. So
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope that keeps working. I have a
Speaker 1: feeling that it will. That would be nice, but you
Speaker 1: never know what's coming that's that's why I came up
Speaker 1: with a way to say that. I think you can't
Speaker 1: fight uncertainty. You uncertainty is going to be your meal
Speaker 1: at every meal time, and in between unwanted snacks of uncertainty.
Speaker 1: You never know what's going to happen. But what all
Speaker 1: you can do is surf uncertainty. And if it's surfing,
Speaker 1: it can be you know the fun of surfing, the danger,
Speaker 1: the pleasure of making it without cracking your head open.
Speaker 1: You might as well make it a good game because
Speaker 1: it's going to happen. That's what I think. That's how
Speaker 1: mostly I get through. Well, that's about as much as
Speaker 1: we can do. Um alan Alla, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for coming on. Thank you very much. Good to talk
Speaker 1: to you. Bye bye. So that was a great alan Alda.
Speaker 1: Before we go, I wanted to share a brief story
Speaker 1: of our own. Five years ago, I sat in a
Speaker 1: windowless office in San Francisco. It sat atop of weed dispensary,
Speaker 1: had wood floors and high ceilings. These were not ideal
Speaker 1: conditions for a podcast. On the pilot of this show,
Speaker 1: I opened with a quote by the late Roger Ebert.
Speaker 1: Roger passed away eight years ago to the day on
Speaker 1: April fourth, twenty thirteen. The cyclical nature of all this
Speaker 1: is not lost on me. I present him now as
Speaker 1: I presented him then, He wrote, Kindness covers all my
Speaker 1: political beliefs, no need to spell them out. I believe
Speaker 1: that if at the end of it all, according to
Speaker 1: our abilities, we have done something to make others a
Speaker 1: little happier and something to make ourselves a little happier,
Speaker 1: that is about the best we can do. To make
Speaker 1: others less happy as a crime to make ourselves unhappy,
Speaker 1: as where all crime starts, we must try to contribute
Speaker 1: joy to the world. That is true, no matter what
Speaker 1: our problems, our health, our circumstances, we must try. I
Speaker 1: didn't always know this, and am happy I live long
Speaker 1: enough to find it out. That was our mission statement
Speaker 1: for the first five years of this program. Bless you, Roger,
Speaker 1: May they continue to guide us for the next five.
Speaker 1: You don't make a show like ours for as long
Speaker 1: as I have without love. Love from listeners writing in
Speaker 1: love from family calling after hearing an episode they liked
Speaker 1: just to say I listened this week it was actually
Speaker 1: pretty good. They liked to throw in the actually Love
Speaker 1: from friends who field in my calls after some of
Speaker 1: these tapings, just so I could tell them, Oh, I
Speaker 1: think it went pretty well. You gotta listen to this one.
Speaker 1: There are too many people to thank for making this
Speaker 1: show possible over the years, but you know who you are,
Speaker 1: and I am forever indebted to you. I do want
Speaker 1: to give a special thanks to Harrison Cameron, Cleo Benson,
Speaker 1: David Cameron, Caitlin Dryden, Caroline Reebok, Andrea Lynne, and Joshua Siegel,
Speaker 1: all of whom made to day's special episode possible. If
Speaker 1: you'd like to support the work we do here, you
Speaker 1: can visit www dot Patreon dot com slash talk easy.
Speaker 1: That's patreon dot com slash talk easy. Our executive producer
Speaker 1: is Jennick Sobravo. Illustrations by Christian Shannoy. Associate producer is
Speaker 1: Nicky Spina. Our lead editor is Andrea Lynn. Our editor
Speaker 1: for today's episode is Joshua Siegel. Our assistant editors are
Speaker 1: Clarice Kivara and Kevin Corr. Music by Dylan Peck. Our
Speaker 1: interns are Caitlin Dryden, Claire Hardwick, Jillie Harold, Patrice Lee
Speaker 1: and Grace Perkins. Video and graphics by Ian Chang, Derek
Speaker 1: gabrazach O'Ryan Huang, Ian Jones, Isabelle Primavera, and Ethan Seneca,
Speaker 1: and the show is produced by Caroline Reebok. I'm San Fragoso.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Talk Easy. Thank you for
Speaker 1: making this show possible. Your support means the world to me.
Speaker 1: I know that's a cliche, but god damn if it
Speaker 1: isn't true. We'll be back next Sunday, Every Sunday with
Speaker 1: another episode. To close us out, a song that pretty
Speaker 1: much tells you everything you need to know about this show.
Speaker 1: Here's the five more years of people needing people. I'll
Speaker 1: see you next week. People, people who need people, Oh
Speaker 1: theckiest people the world. When children needing of children And yet, lady,
Speaker 1: I've grown up, Bride, I've all the need inside, acting
Speaker 1: more like children than children