Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, welcome to Talk Easy, a weekly podcast
Speaker 1: of interviews who had fascinating people from all walks of life.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Sam Fragoso. Thanks for tuning in. This
Speaker 1: week on the podcast, we have celebrated actor David o'yelowo.
Speaker 1: Born in Oxford to Nigerian parents, David's acting career began
Speaker 1: on the stage in nineteen ninety nine, where he started
Speaker 1: in a series of Shakespearean plays, including Anthony and Cleopatra.
Speaker 1: His breakthrough in the theater came a little later, though,
Speaker 1: when he played King Henry the Sixth in a trilogy
Speaker 1: of plays called This England The Histories. Soon, o'yellowo found
Speaker 1: his footing in the movies, where he appeared in a
Speaker 1: string of notable films including Rise of the Planet of
Speaker 1: the Apes, The Help, Red Tails, Lincoln, Lee Daniels, The Butler, Interstellar,
Speaker 1: A Most Violent Year, and The Endless List goes on.
Speaker 1: All these accomplishments, though, we're merely leading up to his
Speaker 1: work in Ava Duvenai's monumental film Selma, where David assumed
Speaker 1: the role of Martin Luther King for more than two
Speaker 1: powerful hours. O'yellowo turned the SoundBite and myth of king
Speaker 1: into a genuine human being. And in case you were
Speaker 1: ever wondering when you should stop caring about the oscars,
Speaker 1: go ahead and take twenty fourteen twenty fifteen as that
Speaker 1: time as David for some inexplicable reason, was not nominated
Speaker 1: for his groundbreaking work. As I am unable to exercise
Speaker 1: my constitutional right to vote, I do not have command
Speaker 1: of my whole life. I cannot determine my own destiny.
Speaker 1: What is determined faull by people who would rather seem
Speaker 1: self a than succeed those that have gone before. I
Speaker 1: say no more, no more. That needs protest, That means musk,
Speaker 1: that means to stop the piece, that means dance, That
Speaker 1: means risk, and that is hard. We will not winning
Speaker 1: a longer give us debate. That's right, well more, we're
Speaker 1: not asking when a mandy give us about. When I
Speaker 1: spoke to Oyelowo, he was in town for five nights
Speaker 1: in Maine, which made his premiere in this year San
Speaker 1: Francisco International Film Vestival. The reality is much has happened
Speaker 1: in o'yelloo's life since Selma, and he was remarkably forthright
Speaker 1: about the trajectory of his career while still envisioning a
Speaker 1: more diverse and representative Hollywood. We also get into his
Speaker 1: upbringing in the UK in Nigeria, along with the criticisms
Speaker 1: directed at the upcoming controversial film Nina. And for the
Speaker 1: first time on the show, I have no preface warning
Speaker 1: you about the audio. There are no chirping birds, shoddy
Speaker 1: Wi Fi or blaring construction work. It's just David and
Speaker 1: I and his ridiculously beautiful sounding British accent. So now
Speaker 1: finally here's David oh yellow Oh. There's always this talk
Speaker 1: about David woos the first actor in England play a King,
Speaker 1: the first black actor, and then there's Martin Luther King,
Speaker 1: and it's wow, finally that movie is here. There always
Speaker 1: seems to be like you, like you're an anomaly, You're
Speaker 1: an exception. You know you've aren't you're breaking some barrier,
Speaker 1: And I guess I'm curious, are you anticipating a point
Speaker 1: where it's it's not that. Ah, that's such a good question. Um.
Speaker 1: It's funny my brother, you know, when he happens upon
Speaker 1: these interviews on the Internet and the newspapers, he always says,
Speaker 1: why do they keep on going on about Henry the
Speaker 1: sixth or you know, and I guess it's Selma now
Speaker 1: and playing Mountain Luther King. But both those projects and
Speaker 1: others have been seminal for me. The thing that I
Speaker 1: didn't anticipate is that they would be seminal in ways
Speaker 1: that I hadn't foreseen. You know, when I played Henry
Speaker 1: the sixth at the Royal Shakespeare Company, I didn't realize
Speaker 1: I was the first black actor to be afforded that
Speaker 1: opportunity at the RSC, and the director didn't either, No,
Speaker 1: and and and that's you know, a testament to him.
Speaker 1: And thankfully eventually that the production that that wasn't you know,
Speaker 1: a part of the agenda to specifically have a black
Speaker 1: actor playing that role. And similarly, when I very first
Speaker 1: encountered the script Selma, I was also shocked to realize
Speaker 1: that it was going to be the first film where
Speaker 1: Doctor King was the central role. So you know, but yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, I I actively go after those kind of
Speaker 1: roles because I am the center of my own life,
Speaker 1: black or otherwise, you know, husband, friend, father, you know,
Speaker 1: and I want to see someone like me at the
Speaker 1: center of a story, even though it's seldom or rarely
Speaker 1: or not as often as it should happen. Do you
Speaker 1: think you're seeing more of you? Sorry, do you think
Speaker 1: you're seeing more of you in movies? Now? Yes? Absolutely?
Speaker 1: Five Nights in Maine, for which I'm here in San
Speaker 1: Francisco at the San Francisco Film Festival is a case
Speaker 1: in point. And I think one of the things that's
Speaker 1: helped me see more of me in movies is producing,
Speaker 1: you know, because as a producer, you can shape the narrative,
Speaker 1: You can craft the narrative, you can make sure the
Speaker 1: qualities of a certain level, or at least be the
Speaker 1: one or one of the people in the driving seat
Speaker 1: to make sure that it is what you hope for,
Speaker 1: as opposed to sort of being a cog in the wheel,
Speaker 1: which is often the case. As an actor. I was
Speaker 1: at Sundance and I was assigned by an editor to
Speaker 1: talk to a black actor. And of course it was
Speaker 1: around the time of the oscars. The oscars so white
Speaker 1: and all that, all that stuff, And there seems to
Speaker 1: be a pattern in media and in these interviews that
Speaker 1: if one is talking to someone of color, it is
Speaker 1: a prerequisite and acquired that I talked to you about
Speaker 1: the problem in Hollywood. You get sick of constantly going
Speaker 1: over that. Absolutely, absolutely, I do. I get sick of
Speaker 1: it because I can tell other people a sick of
Speaker 1: it right because we're running in circles. It's just the
Speaker 1: same thing we are. And in my opinion, it's time
Speaker 1: to stop talking in time to start doing. Yeah, is
Speaker 1: that while you're producing more? Absolutely, you know, And I
Speaker 1: would rather focus on that. You can't get to the
Speaker 1: doing without some of the talking because a lot of
Speaker 1: the challenges that are being faced are due to ignorance. Really,
Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't. I would almost say it's not
Speaker 1: over racism, but exactly as you say, you end up
Speaker 1: going around in circles if you're trying to have a
Speaker 1: conversation about it, because really, you know, as we say
Speaker 1: in the UK, the proof is in the pudding. You know,
Speaker 1: you have to sort of that a UK saying. That
Speaker 1: is a UK saying. I prefaced it by saying it's
Speaker 1: a UK saying because I would I know people were
Speaker 1: getting what that proof is in that, But I don't
Speaker 1: know where that idiot comes from. Trust me, if we
Speaker 1: were in England, everyone will be nodding their heads profusely.
Speaker 1: But but yeah, you know, it's it's all we could say,
Speaker 1: you know, just just walk the talk, you know, and
Speaker 1: that's that's what I want to focus on. And as
Speaker 1: I say, that's what the producing is about. And that's
Speaker 1: what picking roles over other roles is also about. You know,
Speaker 1: I say no a lot because I truly believe that
Speaker 1: I won't see the me I want to see if
Speaker 1: I take roles that perpetuate some of these stereotypes, caricatures
Speaker 1: that basically enable certain people, studios, producers, writers, the audience
Speaker 1: to stay in a place of ignorance about seeing someone
Speaker 1: who looks like me in a different way. Right. You
Speaker 1: talk about us the conversation about race in Hollywood running
Speaker 1: in circles, But do you feel your career is evolving
Speaker 1: in a way that you're happy with? Absolutely? Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, one of the biggest challenges I have faced
Speaker 1: personally as an actor in an eighteen year career now
Speaker 1: is resistance to being the protagonist. Resistance to being the
Speaker 1: center of the story, Resistance to being the center of
Speaker 1: the story from a place of power, as as opposed
Speaker 1: to from a place of weakness, or as opposed to
Speaker 1: being on the periphery of one's own story. Even if
Speaker 1: there is a pretense that you're at the center. I
Speaker 1: think this is why you we talked earlier about Selma.
Speaker 1: You said it took so long for someone to be
Speaker 1: made because it was very hard for the majority of
Speaker 1: America to accept a story about a black man where
Speaker 1: there was not a white savior. I would actually say
Speaker 1: it was less about the audience and more about the industry, right,
Speaker 1: I think there is. They're not the same, they're not
Speaker 1: the same, but they're afted Like I just did, I
Speaker 1: lazily lumped up in together. Absolutely, And and that's the
Speaker 1: thing is that in the age of social media, in
Speaker 1: the age where network television is seeding ground to cable
Speaker 1: televi vision, where the audience is able to give a
Speaker 1: sense and a voice to what they want to see,
Speaker 1: quicker studios, channels, media are having to catch up to
Speaker 1: what the audience actually wants to see as opposed to
Speaker 1: what they decided they want to see. So lies like,
Speaker 1: you know, the audience isn't ready to see people of
Speaker 1: color or women. Um, you know, in a heroic vein,
Speaker 1: in a leadership vein, in a protagonist situation other than
Speaker 1: Will Smith or Denzel Washington is just not true. You know,
Speaker 1: we've seen so many examples of that recently with Creed
Speaker 1: and Spread Out of Compton, and you know, and and
Speaker 1: on and on, and I think best from last year
Speaker 1: in my head, in terms of big budget movies in
Speaker 1: the studio system, Creed and Straight on the Coptin, I
Speaker 1: think we're at the top. I think they're the best
Speaker 1: ones bad And even if for whatever reason you didn't
Speaker 1: like those films, they're still undeniable in terms of box office,
Speaker 1: in terms of cultural reach, in terms of also bringing
Speaker 1: fresh talent to the four which is always, to my mind,
Speaker 1: one of the most exciting things, or should be one
Speaker 1: of the most exciting things for Hollywood. You know, an
Speaker 1: industry that is constantly perpetuating itself to have fresh voices
Speaker 1: like Ryan Coogler, like Michael B. Jordan, like that phenomenal
Speaker 1: cast in Straight Out of Compton, to me, was just
Speaker 1: so exciting, and you know, and the audience responded. You know,
Speaker 1: you simply cannot go north of a hundred million dollars
Speaker 1: without breaking the color barrier. Those are not black movies.
Speaker 1: Those are populist movies. Right. I mentioned the advancement of
Speaker 1: your career, and I don't even know if if you
Speaker 1: want to call it a career if you just want
Speaker 1: to call it a vocation or whatever it is. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll go with that, Okay, because um you said, I
Speaker 1: I just have the quote here you told me, Um,
Speaker 1: in all honesty, there's nothing in my life right now,
Speaker 1: kim to what playing doctor k King meant to me
Speaker 1: for seven years. And when I re read that today,
Speaker 1: I thought, God, that's a lot. Not only is that
Speaker 1: a lot of time, but that's a lot of thought
Speaker 1: and heart going into one role. And it's the role
Speaker 1: people now know. You buy. But I guess I'm curious,
Speaker 1: how do you create something else on the same level,
Speaker 1: on the same magnitude for yourself, not even audience audience response,
Speaker 1: be downed for yourself. Yeah, I mean that that you
Speaker 1: just gave me said, yeah you did that. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: it's it's almost like no, no, no, no, no, it's
Speaker 1: because it's a very good question. It's it's like, you
Speaker 1: know it it's like winning the gold at the Olympics
Speaker 1: and and then you you and then you kind of go, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's do I do that again? Or do I You know,
Speaker 1: That's what it was like, Can I just do that?
Speaker 1: You know? And that's what it felt like for me,
Speaker 1: you know, because I know for a fact that I've
Speaker 1: never worked harder, I've never felt more blessed. I've never
Speaker 1: worked with a group of people I felt were more
Speaker 1: right an apt you know, between Eva de Vernay as
Speaker 1: a director and Oprah Winfrey and Jeremy Kleiner and Ddy
Speaker 1: Gardner as producers, and just the timing of it as well,
Speaker 1: you know, in terms of what was going on in
Speaker 1: this country. Um, and look, I'm a British actor of
Speaker 1: Nigerian descent. You know, I am just not the guy
Speaker 1: who you would pluck out of any scenario to do this,
Speaker 1: and yet I was afford of the opportunity. So you know,
Speaker 1: the time where all of those elements will come about again. Look,
Speaker 1: I've made peace with the fact that it might never
Speaker 1: happen again, and I'm okay with that because there are
Speaker 1: more actors than you and I care to mention who
Speaker 1: will never you know, have the opportunity I've already had.
Speaker 1: And that's an amazing thing to be able to say.
Speaker 1: That's that's a bold thing to say as an artist,
Speaker 1: where you potentially accept the reality that this is because
Speaker 1: it was a cumbination of things, right, because you also
Speaker 1: had all these films that you dabbled in the Civil War.
Speaker 1: You had you know, Lincott, you had Red Tails, you
Speaker 1: had the help, you really had. That was your mentioned
Speaker 1: this before the Selma was thesis. It was like here
Speaker 1: all the classes I took and you were ready for that. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And look, I m The thing that Selma has given
Speaker 1: me is the opportunity to explore new challenges from a
Speaker 1: place of less resistance, um like, which is key because
Speaker 1: resistance seems to be frequent, absolutely, and not just because
Speaker 1: I'm a black actor. It's it's a tough industry, um
Speaker 1: you know. So it's it's it's part for the course.
Speaker 1: But it's now a question of what you do with
Speaker 1: a degree of notoriety, what you do with the opportunity,
Speaker 1: um you know. And I have a film coming out
Speaker 1: this year called A United Kingdom, which is a six
Speaker 1: year journey for me, you know, getting to play an
Speaker 1: African king in the in the in the form of
Speaker 1: set Kama who was from Botswana, and that was also
Speaker 1: a very um steep mountain to climb, um and uh
Speaker 1: and we got it done and I love the film,
Speaker 1: um But there are other challenges that that I'm now
Speaker 1: keen to explore some that I hadn't entertained before. That Again,
Speaker 1: the platform I now have affords me that, you know,
Speaker 1: bigger films, films that are not necessarily centered on race,
Speaker 1: which in and of itself is also you know, Five
Speaker 1: Nights of Man is it is like, yeah, you're a vulnerable, um,
Speaker 1: heartbroken widow. Is that the mail widow? Yeah? Um, and
Speaker 1: you're from Georgia, I think, right, yeah, exactly right. Not
Speaker 1: not race oriented by any No, it never comes up.
Speaker 1: It never comes up. And that's I wouldn't say it's
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I wanted to do the film,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly one of the reasons I love the film.
Speaker 1: You know, the idea of myself and Diane Waste, you know,
Speaker 1: in a house together for five days in rural Maine,
Speaker 1: having it out of a familial dysfunction. Those are images
Speaker 1: I haven't really seen before. That's a dynamic I personally
Speaker 1: haven't really seen before. And I like that. I like
Speaker 1: pushing the bandary because you know, ultimately, for me, my
Speaker 1: biggest challenge to myself and I guess they're therefore the
Speaker 1: audience is to continue to contextualize black life, which in
Speaker 1: reality is just life, but it's black life still, I
Speaker 1: almost have to be I think I'm maybe more hopeful.
Speaker 1: I try to be optimistic, but I want to I
Speaker 1: would love to get to a place where you're just
Speaker 1: it is just life. That's that's exactly where I'm gunning for.
Speaker 1: But you know, I read a review for Five Nights
Speaker 1: in Maine where the reviewer's main critique was the fact
Speaker 1: that the topic of race didn't come up, and that's disheartening.
Speaker 1: Probably written by a white person. It was you looked
Speaker 1: it up. Well, sorry, you looked it up. I know
Speaker 1: who the critic is, you know, and it's a it's
Speaker 1: a well known publication and it's unfortunately not surprising that
Speaker 1: that that's, you know, the thing to pick out of
Speaker 1: the film. But that's why I'm still in the place
Speaker 1: of knowingly feeling the need to contextualize what someone like
Speaker 1: me means in the world, because it's still an image
Speaker 1: that is noticeable to a lot of the American population
Speaker 1: when it happens. But you and the image you talk about,
Speaker 1: I mean, David, you mean you are unique, you are
Speaker 1: very You're history, ancestral history. You were more in the UK,
Speaker 1: then you went back to Nigeria and then you went
Speaker 1: back to the UK. Yeah, so I'm interested in your
Speaker 1: sort of perception or identity of yourself now because I
Speaker 1: listened to that Terry Gross interview you talked about as
Speaker 1: a kid, people would call you coconut right, which is
Speaker 1: our way of saying the oreo black on the outside,
Speaker 1: white on the inside. Has your identity of yourself shifted
Speaker 1: and changed as you move to America and you've evolved
Speaker 1: in your career and all that, you know, I'm certainly
Speaker 1: more aware of racism as a debilitating syndrome having lived
Speaker 1: in America. In Nigeria, it's a non issue because I'm
Speaker 1: the majority. In the UK, it's more insidious, it's more
Speaker 1: buried within the class system. There are more reasons or
Speaker 1: more excuses for hiding it as a reality in America,
Speaker 1: the news media, life, in general politics, it is just
Speaker 1: so apparent that race still is a big reality as
Speaker 1: an obstacle in people's minds, whether you're black, Asian, white,
Speaker 1: it's a presence. As much as people liberal people even
Speaker 1: like to think that it's not it is. It just is.
Speaker 1: And in many ways I've become more aware of it.
Speaker 1: The more notoriety I've gained because you then are more
Speaker 1: aware of how anomalous you are, and that that's uncomfortable
Speaker 1: for me. I don't want to be an anomaly. I
Speaker 1: don't want to be my success or my voice or
Speaker 1: the kind of work choosing to do to be so
Speaker 1: rarefied that it is probably noticeable you want to be
Speaker 1: an anomaly, and that you're uniquely talented gifted as an actor, right,
Speaker 1: Not an anomaly is Wow, that's a black actor in
Speaker 1: this movie and he's like a kick in this play exactly,
Speaker 1: which basically equates to a lot of the work I
Speaker 1: do being politicized. Right. And then it's do you feel
Speaker 1: that the artistic merits of your work are just they
Speaker 1: take a back seat. Well, I don't mind it, because
Speaker 1: my hope is that it's moving the conversation forward. My
Speaker 1: hope is that there will be a generation beyond mine
Speaker 1: that that would not be the case because the issue
Speaker 1: is talked out whereby there won't be attacks on a
Speaker 1: film like Selma because someone somewhere feels like the film
Speaker 1: should really be about Lyndon Johnson. You know that, I
Speaker 1: hope will not continue to be a syndrome. And I've
Speaker 1: seen enough films that I've been coming out enough, great directors,
Speaker 1: great actors coming up and the audience responding to them,
Speaker 1: that you know, even a year or so after Selma
Speaker 1: has come out, I would hope that because of the
Speaker 1: ground that Selma broke, that it wouldn't be the same
Speaker 1: thing for a similar film that's coming behind it to
Speaker 1: have to face. I think some rather political criticism has
Speaker 1: been directed towards the Nina Simone Phil And I'm I
Speaker 1: don't know how familiar you are with all of that.
Speaker 1: I don't pay much attention to it. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I know there's been a lot of negativity and that,
Speaker 1: you know, I tried to stay away from that. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm not impervious to work that I do being criticized.
Speaker 1: I don't dismiss things that are being said, but you know,
Speaker 1: I say that I'm aware of everything that's being said.
Speaker 1: I don't want to dismiss the movie because I have
Speaker 1: not seen it, But I am interested in talking about
Speaker 1: the piece that Tanahassee Coach wrote in the Atlantic. Did
Speaker 1: you read that I'm not aware of it? Okay? He wrote,
Speaker 1: he led the piece with When I was a kid,
Speaker 1: I knew what the worst parts of me were my
Speaker 1: hair and my mouth. My hair was nappy. And he
Speaker 1: goes on to talk about Nita Simone in total, and
Speaker 1: he says, in America, racism is a default setting. To
Speaker 1: do nothing, to go along with the market, to claim
Speaker 1: innocence or neutrality is to inevitably be a cog in
Speaker 1: the machine of racist hierarchy. And the argument he makes,
Speaker 1: and I will preface it by saying he has not
Speaker 1: seen the film, but the argument he makes is that
Speaker 1: what was done to Zoe Saudanna in terms of makeup,
Speaker 1: in terms of casting, was a choice made purely for
Speaker 1: financial reasons, that the film would not get funding without her,
Speaker 1: and that someone would someone with a dark complexion in
Speaker 1: the current state of Hollywood could not play or rather
Speaker 1: is not being chosen to play Nina Simone Hm and
Speaker 1: he it's a new ways that this happened because most
Speaker 1: of the people on the film we're white. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have definitely been the beneficiary of projects where there
Speaker 1: are black voices in the midst of stories that have
Speaker 1: black protagonists, a black story, a black outlook, and it
Speaker 1: does make a difference. M Selma directed by a white
Speaker 1: man and an entirely white producing Team is an entirely
Speaker 1: different film, right, And you chose a lot of the
Speaker 1: people who remained Selma right. Yeah. Yeah. I had done
Speaker 1: Middle of Nowhere with Ava and for her to to
Speaker 1: direct it, and I'd done The Butler with Oprah and
Speaker 1: was very keen for her to produce and thankfully she
Speaker 1: said yes. And the reason I know it's different is
Speaker 1: because I was also around that project when neither of
Speaker 1: those ladies was part of it, and it was a
Speaker 1: very different conversation conversation there was there was a very
Speaker 1: clear agenda to have LBJ be the center of the story.
Speaker 1: There were points where Doctor King was a supporting character.
Speaker 1: And so I absolutely agree that when there no one,
Speaker 1: no one is going to be as passionate about telling
Speaker 1: your story as you, and no one is going to
Speaker 1: be able to bring as much authenticity, reality, truthfulness, tenacity
Speaker 1: to rigor to telling a story as as when it
Speaker 1: is your experience, when it is your life, your life
Speaker 1: blood that you're you're putting into telling the story. So
Speaker 1: there is definitely a difference. What I will say about
Speaker 1: about Nina is that in working with Zoe, I saw
Speaker 1: an actress who gave her all, her absolute all, and
Speaker 1: you know in in making the film, the spirit around
Speaker 1: it was one of telling the truth, one of trying
Speaker 1: as much as one can to with a with rigor,
Speaker 1: to get to the heart in some way of who
Speaker 1: Nina Simone was. The thing about an artistic endeavor is
Speaker 1: that it's an artistic endeavor. It's subjective, you know, it's
Speaker 1: going to you know, I've seen things with a friend
Speaker 1: who they hated it and I loved it. And that
Speaker 1: friend is my wife, you know, you know, no, I
Speaker 1: mean by watching films with my wife, something ill, you know,
Speaker 1: and that and that's the nature of it. You know,
Speaker 1: you win some, you lose some, But for me, it's
Speaker 1: all about the spirit in which the thing is done.
Speaker 1: So you don't think the film was negatively affected by
Speaker 1: the fact that it was predominantly made by white people.
Speaker 1: It would be a different film, no question. It would
Speaker 1: be a different film if it was made by a man.
Speaker 1: It would be a different film if it was made
Speaker 1: by a black man. It would be a different film
Speaker 1: if it was made by a black woman. And it's
Speaker 1: the film it is for having been directed by who
Speaker 1: it was directed by. There's no you know, we would
Speaker 1: be being disingenuous to say that the captain of the
Speaker 1: ship or the voices that are part of the creative
Speaker 1: conversation don't shape the narrative of a film that would
Speaker 1: that would just be be alive. But at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, I think that what I'm really interested
Speaker 1: in is volume. I'm interested in getting to the point
Speaker 1: whereby we're making enough movies that you are cultivating enough
Speaker 1: talent that whether it's a conversation around finance ability or
Speaker 1: the politicizing of films, that you know, the reason why
Speaker 1: so many of the films I do become politicized is
Speaker 1: because they are anomalous. Is because they come along, you know,
Speaker 1: the help name me another film quite like that? Or
Speaker 1: Selma a film Five Nights in Maine, the same thing,
Speaker 1: Red Tails. I mean, that took twenty five years for
Speaker 1: George Lucas to get that film make The Butler. No
Speaker 1: studio in Holiday would want it to make. We had
Speaker 1: to do it with all with private financing, you know,
Speaker 1: before that film went to make nearly two hundred million dollars.
Speaker 1: You know, so many of the projects I choose to
Speaker 1: do are so hard to get made, and so they're five. Therefore,
Speaker 1: they're sort of these unicorns that have to endure such
Speaker 1: a magnifying glass that no piece of art really it
Speaker 1: should have to endure because it is art. It is
Speaker 1: not it cannot be all things to all men for
Speaker 1: their salvation. You mentioned volume, So are you okay with
Speaker 1: the quality of the work slipping if there's more quantity.
Speaker 1: White filmmakers are allowed that privilege day and day out.
Speaker 1: You know, you you are allowed as an actor, specifically
Speaker 1: a white actor or a white male director, to have
Speaker 1: some bombs and it doesn't mean you go into director jail.
Speaker 1: You're allowed to as as as a white actor to
Speaker 1: you know, have films that don't do well and you
Speaker 1: don't suddenly disappear. It's not the same thing as a
Speaker 1: black actor, especially not as a black female director or actress,
Speaker 1: because it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of ah. You see,
Speaker 1: people don't want to see that. And that's the distinction
Speaker 1: I make between the industry and the audience. You know,
Speaker 1: the audience is telling you know, the industry the studios
Speaker 1: that it doesn't like certain things all the time, you know,
Speaker 1: but they don't stop using those directors or those actors.
Speaker 1: It's not quite the same thing because those actors and
Speaker 1: directors look like them, and they are telling their story
Speaker 1: and they want their story constantly being told by people
Speaker 1: they like. And it's it's as simple as that. Whereas
Speaker 1: if you are if you are rarefied, or you are
Speaker 1: getto wised, or you are definable as something other, it's
Speaker 1: very easy to dismiss you, ignore you, and have a reason,
Speaker 1: an excuse to marginalize you. But you're not going to
Speaker 1: do that to yourself. When you're king, when you're on
Speaker 1: the in the position of power, you know you're going
Speaker 1: to perpetually forgive yourself and your children and your friends,
Speaker 1: which is what those groups that get several chances present.
Speaker 1: I was, like you said, King, and I my immediate
Speaker 1: thought was, yeah, you came from your family. There's a
Speaker 1: street in Nigeria after your your family, right, Um. And
Speaker 1: you've talked about before how that I feel like has
Speaker 1: embold in you like you have. You have so much
Speaker 1: confidence I've seen I've seen you do a cute outstage,
Speaker 1: and you're impeccably well dressed, and you're confident, and you're
Speaker 1: funny and you're do you think, um, this is such
Speaker 1: a hypothetical, but do you think that has allowed you
Speaker 1: to continue onward away like that that background has propelled
Speaker 1: you forward in a way that I think, so I
Speaker 1: I apologize to no one for who I am and
Speaker 1: for the um confidence I have and who I am,
Speaker 1: And then who would you have to apologize to? H
Speaker 1: if you are, if you are someone who um in
Speaker 1: any in the industry you're in, there is a sin
Speaker 1: room of there can only be one, and that's perpetuated
Speaker 1: by what you see Sidney Potier, Denzel well Smith, this
Speaker 1: notion that once there's one, it becomes the reason too.
Speaker 1: It's it's a way of placating everyone else and also saying,
Speaker 1: don't complain, You've got your one, you know, which I
Speaker 1: would say, have people told you not to complain? It's
Speaker 1: it's it's subtler than that, you know, because it's as
Speaker 1: as a white actor, you're you're never you don't get
Speaker 1: the same. You don't you don't get Oh, are you
Speaker 1: going to be the next Denzel? You know what? That's
Speaker 1: that's what actors like me get. Are you going to
Speaker 1: be the next one? You know? I can guarantee you
Speaker 1: that any number of white actors coming up, I'm not
Speaker 1: constantly living under the phrase are you going to be
Speaker 1: the next Brad. Are you going to be the next Tom? Right?
Speaker 1: You're the next Chris. You know there's a line of
Speaker 1: them because you're allowed to for there to be more
Speaker 1: than one, you're allowed. Can you imagine if there was
Speaker 1: a string of Denzels. No, because Denzel's the best, he
Speaker 1: is the best invitable. But there are some. There are
Speaker 1: great actors, great great actors that I know of by
Speaker 1: name who it's all about opportunity. It's all about their
Speaker 1: talent meeting up with opportunity. And in a sense, that's
Speaker 1: where the apology could come in, where, in a bid
Speaker 1: to be the next you reshape yourself in order to
Speaker 1: be palatable to the status quo. And for me that
Speaker 1: is that would be to denigrate who I am, right,
Speaker 1: what I represent, and and to be perfectly frank, to
Speaker 1: make me lesser than my peers. Sean Penn apologizes to
Speaker 1: no one, right, he doesn't have to. Daniel de Lewis
Speaker 1: does a film when he wants to, and when he
Speaker 1: does it, you pay attention. It's unapologetic, and he is
Speaker 1: allowed space to do that. Fantastic, But he would not
Speaker 1: be He would not then be um ridiculed in a
Speaker 1: way that would be professionally prohibitive. I think that if
Speaker 1: he were black, that would be a reason to dismiss him.
Speaker 1: Oh you did this, sorry, yeah, you're this, you're a
Speaker 1: bit oh as opposed to just had it. It's like
Speaker 1: a revelation to that. And it would when John Pan
Speaker 1: does something like that, or a white actor does something ridiculous. Yes,
Speaker 1: there is centric exactly exactly color does it? Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: Oh they're they're crazy. Oh they're they can't be trusting
Speaker 1: exactly will they go prison or the you know, it's true,
Speaker 1: I could I could name you the actors who have
Speaker 1: gone to prison when other actors have eventually been welcomed
Speaker 1: back and in many ways because they are now an
Speaker 1: underdog story. It is now, oh come on back in
Speaker 1: and you know what, we're going to pay twenty million
Speaker 1: dollars a movie for the fact that triumph fantastic, right exactly,
Speaker 1: Whereas you know, to be perfectly frank, if you're if
Speaker 1: you're a black woman, woman, man, you know, it's it
Speaker 1: becomes a reason to say, Okay, that's that's why we
Speaker 1: need to be careful of that. So you know, but
Speaker 1: the thing for me is all of this can sound
Speaker 1: like sour graves and sounds like when it's complaining, It's
Speaker 1: just a reality, and it's a reality based on experience.
Speaker 1: And the thing that I know is true for me
Speaker 1: is that whether or not I go on to scale
Speaker 1: the full heights that I hope for myself, the one
Speaker 1: thing I wouldn't be able to live with is the
Speaker 1: idea of curtailing the force of what I want to
Speaker 1: do and what I want to see, not just in me,
Speaker 1: but in others, the opportunity and the platform I want
Speaker 1: for women directors. You know, I still can't get my
Speaker 1: head around a country like America that is fifty one
Speaker 1: percent female and in twenty fourteen, of the top two
Speaker 1: hundred and fifty films made, only seven percent of them
Speaker 1: were directed by women. That doesn't make sense. That doesn't
Speaker 1: make sense, and that has to change. And so for me,
Speaker 1: it's not just about race. It's about the complexity of
Speaker 1: humanity being seen. We are all richer for it. It
Speaker 1: just so happens that I'm a black man, and so
Speaker 1: my experience is where I'm you know, speaking from. But
Speaker 1: there are so many groups Asian people, Hispanic people, women,
Speaker 1: you know, disabled people who aren't being seen in the
Speaker 1: way that they need to be seen in My genuine
Speaker 1: hope and desire is to help as a producer, as
Speaker 1: an actor who hopefully is shifting the hinges, hopefully blowing
Speaker 1: the hinges off at some point that there was just
Speaker 1: going to be it's going to be evident that there's
Speaker 1: an appetite for more than just a middle class, white
Speaker 1: male point of view in cinema. You said her perfectly.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing this. Really, I played
Speaker 1: it well there it is. Thanks again to David for
Speaker 1: coming on the show, and be sure to keep an
Speaker 1: eye out for five nights in Maine as it makes
Speaker 1: the festival rounds this year. You can also stream some
Speaker 1: of David's best work on Netflix, including Biddle of Nowhere,
Speaker 1: The Paperboy, and The Butler. Wait sorry, Lee, Daniel's The Butler.
Speaker 1: Remember to subscribe to the show on iTunes and SoundCloud
Speaker 1: or your favorite podcasting app. And if you want to
Speaker 1: send mail of any kind, hate mail, love letters, miscellaneous
Speaker 1: thoughts on Donald Trump, our favorite email the show at
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Speaker 1: if you have a spare moment in your busy day.
Speaker 1: Please give us a review on iTunes. It helps us
Speaker 1: reach new listeners. As always, our theme music is provided
Speaker 1: by Vanilla, Our executive producer is David Chen, graphics by
Speaker 1: Ian Jones, Technical assistance provided by Joe Stillwater, and the
Speaker 1: show is produced and edited by Coreya Tad. I'm your host,
Speaker 1: San Francoso. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next week.
Speaker 1: Keep person personal