Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, welcome to Talk Easy, weekly podcasts of
Speaker 1: interviews with fascinating people from all walks of life. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Sam Fracoso. Thanks for tuning in. So for
Speaker 1: those keeping track, today, mark's episode number five for us
Speaker 1: here on the show, which means a month has passed
Speaker 1: since we first launched. And somehow, I don't know how
Speaker 1: that's really possible, but I think that's what happened. When
Speaker 1: you're pouring so much of your time into one venture,
Speaker 1: time goes by very quickly. I learned. The response is
Speaker 1: my god, thank you for the responses that we have
Speaker 1: received thus far. They have been particularly encouraging. Those who
Speaker 1: have been critical the show have been fair and honest
Speaker 1: in their assessment and that are helping us make it better.
Speaker 1: So I appreciate that as well. It's you know, it's
Speaker 1: a terrifying thing to put something new out into the world,
Speaker 1: something that has no backing really other than ourselves and
Speaker 1: the people working on this show, and we're all hoping
Speaker 1: someone somewhere likes it, and people have and so thank
Speaker 1: you for doing that, and I think I think we're
Speaker 1: in this for the long haul. So again, forever and always,
Speaker 1: thank you for listening and tuning in. This week on
Speaker 1: the show, we have Wesley Morris, whose official position critic
Speaker 1: at Large was created for him upon entering The New
Speaker 1: York Times. The first thing you should know about Wesley
Speaker 1: is that he's not someone who particularly enjoys receiving compliments.
Speaker 1: So I'll save the superlagues for a later date. Before
Speaker 1: landing at the Times, Morris wrote for The Boston Globe,
Speaker 1: where he won the Pulitzer Prize and criticism in twenty twelve. Again,
Speaker 1: that's the Pulitzer Committee complimenting and awarding him. That's not me.
Speaker 1: I'm just relaying facts, okay. Soon after, he pivoted to
Speaker 1: the now defunct soon to be resurrected kind of website
Speaker 1: grant Land, the beloved Bill Simmons run operation that gave
Speaker 1: Morris the space to write long form about popular culture.
Speaker 1: Morris was in town this past week to give the
Speaker 1: State of Cinema address at the fifty nine San Francisco
Speaker 1: International Film Festival, where he argued for the radicalization of
Speaker 1: actor Sidney Potier and how it parallels the current climate
Speaker 1: of race and movies. Indeed, there are few critics who
Speaker 1: write as insightfully as Wesley does. About race in movies,
Speaker 1: but he's not bound to that one subject. So in fact,
Speaker 1: when we sat down, we touched on everything from growing
Speaker 1: up in Philadelphia to appearing on at the Movies with
Speaker 1: Roger Ebert, to finding that drive each day to continue
Speaker 1: working and writing. I'll say this, take it for what
Speaker 1: it is. But by the end of the conversation with
Speaker 1: Wesley I felt particularly inspired. It was like one of
Speaker 1: those It's like when you're reading a really great article
Speaker 1: and at the end of it you're kind of like, oh, God,
Speaker 1: damn it, that's really good and there's no way I
Speaker 1: could have written that. Um. Talking to Wesley's a little
Speaker 1: bit like that. He's particularly inspiring and thoughtful and generous,
Speaker 1: and it makes you want to be a better writer
Speaker 1: and human being. So finally here's Wesley Morris. I don't
Speaker 1: know much about your upbringing because the only time you've
Speaker 1: talked about it it's pretty vague. Um, there's not I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I grew up in Philadelphia. My parents
Speaker 1: were married for a while and then they were divorced.
Speaker 1: Divorced earlier right, Uh, yeah, in nineteen seventy nine, in
Speaker 1: eighties like that. My parents broke up when I was one,
Speaker 1: I think like one and a half. Yeah, we thought
Speaker 1: they were married longer. And then my sister and I
Speaker 1: were going through some we had to get some documents
Speaker 1: when my mother died, and we found out that the
Speaker 1: divorce was sooner than we than I remember it because
Speaker 1: I have such clear memories of they're being married and
Speaker 1: they're not being married. I mean, the transition from one
Speaker 1: state to another state of relationship. Um, what else can
Speaker 1: I tell you? I mean we before Uh, my dad
Speaker 1: was around. I didn't grow up without a father, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean my dad. I mean, well, I went to
Speaker 1: boarding school, so I mean I was raised. I was
Speaker 1: raised in a lot of different capacities. But I think
Speaker 1: that my primary, the person I would credit with raising
Speaker 1: me as my mother because a lot of the decisions
Speaker 1: that were made up my life were made by her. Um.
Speaker 1: But my dad was around, sound, He was a good parent,
Speaker 1: weep buddies. You know, he had started another family that
Speaker 1: he saw much more frequently than I saw him. But
Speaker 1: you know, he was a part he had. I don't
Speaker 1: know what his custodio, what his legal custodial relationship with us,
Speaker 1: with us, I don't think there there was one, but
Speaker 1: you know, at some point when the divorced parents are
Speaker 1: still kind of pals. I think that whatever a judge
Speaker 1: says the deal is as long as you're kind of okay,
Speaker 1: nobody really says anything about it. So, I mean, my
Speaker 1: parents were friendly from my entire childhood. Well that's not true.
Speaker 1: At some point they became friendly again. I don't exactly
Speaker 1: know what precipitated. And I think my mother just isn't
Speaker 1: much of a grudgeholder. Um, are you No? No, I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, maybe, I mean with people that I know,
Speaker 1: I'm pretty easy. It's pretty easy for me to forgive
Speaker 1: some things. I find. There are cultural things that I
Speaker 1: I mean, I won't be able to come up with
Speaker 1: an example of the top of my head of something
Speaker 1: where like I can't I cannot forgive X person for
Speaker 1: saying X thing. But you don't forget. Some things you
Speaker 1: just don't forget. I mean, you can get over them,
Speaker 1: you can forgive them, but you don't forget they happen.
Speaker 1: But for in general, now, I'm pretty I've never I've
Speaker 1: never cut somebody out of my life for in a
Speaker 1: way that would signify grudge holding. Um, I've tried to
Speaker 1: be an adult in terms of how I communicate with people.
Speaker 1: I don't always hold up my end of the bargain
Speaker 1: in that respect, but you know, I try. I can
Speaker 1: be passive. I can be overly tolerant of things that
Speaker 1: I shouldn't have to tolerate. You seem like a nice guy.
Speaker 1: I'm nice. I am nice. Nice. I'm nice except for
Speaker 1: when I can't be nice anymore, right, or when I
Speaker 1: feel like I just don't want to be doing something
Speaker 1: that I'm doing. I can. I can hit a threshold
Speaker 1: sometimes in your writing, you're not nice. But but I
Speaker 1: don't think it's unfair. I don't think I'm great. I
Speaker 1: don't think I'm unfair. No, I just feel like I
Speaker 1: have some quotes so we can go into later, Okay,
Speaker 1: I mean, I just I don't feel like there's any
Speaker 1: point in I mean, from my job, there's no point you.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who who can give
Speaker 1: you exactly that kind of like wishy washy. But it
Speaker 1: can't be passive and criticism. You can be it just
Speaker 1: it doesn't. It just doesn't deserve its purpose, you know,
Speaker 1: at least in terms of how I imagine it operating.
Speaker 1: But I mean generally, no, I do not hold grudges.
Speaker 1: I know you for a while went around because I
Speaker 1: listened to the long form interview you did, and you
Speaker 1: were talking about how I used to go around like
Speaker 1: the great schools. They would ask you to come and
Speaker 1: give your How did you get into film criticism? Um?
Speaker 1: But at a certain point you I don't think you
Speaker 1: want to do that anymore? Right is that? I just
Speaker 1: don't know if it serves a purpose. Right, Like, I'm
Speaker 1: happy to talk to get I still talk to kids
Speaker 1: in schools. They teach a writing class at a charter school. Um,
Speaker 1: But I don't know that. I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: really know what the I don't I think in twenty fifteen,
Speaker 1: I don't really know what the value of the way
Speaker 1: I had been talking to I don't know what the
Speaker 1: value of talking to kids the way I have been
Speaker 1: talking to them, right is anymore? I just don't know.
Speaker 1: So the story I think is whatever. What I know is,
Speaker 1: he wrote a review of something in eighth grade or
Speaker 1: freshman year of high school. Yes, the professor responded, or
Speaker 1: the teacher responded favorably and said no, maybe you should
Speaker 1: do that, and then it happened. But it seems like, uh,
Speaker 1: you talk a lot of things up to luck. I mean, yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: it is not. I mean, but but there's you know,
Speaker 1: there is being good at something, and then there's being
Speaker 1: lucky in terms of people recognizing that you are good.
Speaker 1: So it's it's a mixture of oh yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: it's not. I mean there are a lot of lucky
Speaker 1: people who aren't talented and have gotten very far in life.
Speaker 1: And then there are a lot of really talented people
Speaker 1: who just haven't been lucky at all and have either
Speaker 1: stagnated or you know, they haven't gotten to the point
Speaker 1: where they're you know, where their talent is sort of
Speaker 1: recognized as being as good as as as at least
Speaker 1: I think it is, or as other people think it is. Um,
Speaker 1: I was lucky in that I am talented, but I
Speaker 1: also at people who recognize that that talent was there
Speaker 1: and there were places for me to go with that talent.
Speaker 1: I mean. The other problem is not so much that
Speaker 1: people don't know that other people or talented, is that
Speaker 1: there there are fewer places for that talent to find
Speaker 1: a stable home. Right. Um, So I think I this happened,
Speaker 1: this began to happen to me my career at exactly
Speaker 1: at one of the exactly right and I don't want
Speaker 1: to say last, but definitely rarer moments of where daily
Speaker 1: newspapers needed daily film critics to do daily film criticism.
Speaker 1: We also came you left Yale at one and then
Speaker 1: you got a job almost immediately, right. Well, my first
Speaker 1: job out of college was I was editing um a
Speaker 1: website that doesn't exist anymore called student dot com Stephen
Speaker 1: dot com, student student dot com. Yeah, it was a
Speaker 1: college website. And to Bill Simmons do something with that, no, okay,
Speaker 1: not as far as I know, I mean, this will
Speaker 1: be this would be news to me. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: I don't think Bill had anything to do it. But
Speaker 1: they those guys were all college friends of mine, and
Speaker 1: they started this thing, and I they were nice enough
Speaker 1: to let me do something there. Mostly, I mean I
Speaker 1: was qualified to do it. Um, I just didn't know.
Speaker 1: I just didn't. I didn't have any plan. I had
Speaker 1: no plan, I'd know, I'd no strategy. So this was
Speaker 1: a good place to At the time, I thought, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: this is something that I could probably do for a
Speaker 1: while and we'll see what happens. But I was very
Speaker 1: unclear about what the future looked like, and what did
Speaker 1: you madre in now you uh, film studies and literature. Um,
Speaker 1: And you know, I more or less just kind of
Speaker 1: winged it, you know, because Yale didn't really tell me
Speaker 1: anything about what to do with my life. And that's
Speaker 1: one of the I mean, that's one of the things
Speaker 1: about certain liberal arts educations, which is that unless you're
Speaker 1: going in the finance or the military, or you're going
Speaker 1: into some sort of finishing post, there's no cree turejectory, no,
Speaker 1: I mean, and there's also nobody to really talk you.
Speaker 1: There's officially nobody to I mean, at least the way
Speaker 1: it worked for me. There everybody officially to talk you
Speaker 1: through any of that stuff. Um. And so I was
Speaker 1: just I mean, the luck part for me was I
Speaker 1: didn't have a plan. I didn't know what I was
Speaker 1: going to do. I didn't think i'd started writing real
Speaker 1: I mean, my imagination and my imagination about how this
Speaker 1: was going to go was that I'd start writing film
Speaker 1: criticism when I was you know, like thirty three thirty four,
Speaker 1: and I putted around. I'd teach for a little while,
Speaker 1: I you know, I'd pick up some work here and there. Um.
Speaker 1: The plan was never to get a job when I
Speaker 1: was twenty five at a daily newspaper, which is I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I might have even been younger than right.
Speaker 1: So you go out west Or to the Examiner and
Speaker 1: Chronic Cloud. Here. My first job was at the Examiner,
Speaker 1: and I was there, um, I think until two thousand
Speaker 1: until two thousand uh and the Hers company Hers Corporation
Speaker 1: bought the Chronicle, right and then merged the staffs of
Speaker 1: the Examiner at the Chronicle staff. Um, So in two
Speaker 1: thousand and one, you have the job here. And one
Speaker 1: thing I wanted to talk about was you going on
Speaker 1: at the Movies Show with Ebert. Yes, you would watch
Speaker 1: that as a kid, like run me through what that is?
Speaker 1: I rewatched it today the reviewing South Park. Sorry, no,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? Sorry, Well, I just I've never
Speaker 1: I've never I've never watched it. I just it just
Speaker 1: seemed I remember what I wore. Ye, Well that was
Speaker 1: I will say, you had glasses, um, and then you
Speaker 1: had a T shirt on and it was a yeah,
Speaker 1: it was a it was fun. Um. I remember just
Speaker 1: sort of my memory that was that I probably would
Speaker 1: have worn something different, but whatever. It was nineteen ninety nine,
Speaker 1: I don't know what I was twenty twenty four. I think, um,
Speaker 1: that was that was weird. I don't know, it's funny nothing.
Speaker 1: I think one of the things that people who know
Speaker 1: me find and knowing about me is that I never
Speaker 1: really seem phased by anything. I don't know you very well,
Speaker 1: but I've already it's not I have no expectation that
Speaker 1: what is happening to me is going to happen. I
Speaker 1: don't feel like I just it's not so much that
Speaker 1: I feel like I don't deserve it, but I didn't
Speaker 1: expect anything to me, you know. I I am glad,
Speaker 1: I'm alive, I'm glad to have a job. I'm glad
Speaker 1: to have people in my life that I love. But
Speaker 1: when it comes to things like being on doing at
Speaker 1: the movies or Roger with Roger Ebert and you know,
Speaker 1: sitting in that Gene ciscal seat, it was weird and
Speaker 1: that that it was something that I was that I
Speaker 1: felt spiritually familiar with, but it wasn't. I know. There
Speaker 1: was a moment where I was on the street with
Speaker 1: Roger Ebert and we were talking about things he doesn't
Speaker 1: like about film writing in general. Uh, he didn't he
Speaker 1: doesn't like academic jargon. He didn't like that. He didn't
Speaker 1: like Uh. He wasn't a theory person, so he just
Speaker 1: hated he hated anything that sort of alienated the average
Speaker 1: reader from a piece of criticism, or from a or
Speaker 1: from a train of thought. Uh. He thought those things
Speaker 1: were antithetical to the to the sort of intellectual pursuit
Speaker 1: of experiencing art and culture and of writing criticism. Um.
Speaker 1: And I was really young, and I had just I
Speaker 1: was only I wasn't taught how to write film criticism
Speaker 1: in college. I was taught how to write, how to
Speaker 1: argue basically right. And one of the one of the
Speaker 1: moves that you use in arguing academically is jargon, because
Speaker 1: it kind of makes it harder for the person with
Speaker 1: whom you're arguing to argue back if they don't have
Speaker 1: all the tools, all the sort of rhetorical tools that
Speaker 1: an academic has. Um, you very much have that lexicon,
Speaker 1: and I think that you tap into I can use it.
Speaker 1: But now I understand. I mean, it wasn't Roger Ebert
Speaker 1: that made me aware of of that being a sort
Speaker 1: of counterproductive criticism tactic or or or device. Um, it
Speaker 1: was it was it was well, it was a little
Speaker 1: bit of that, but it was also just having editors
Speaker 1: who were who refused to allow me to use a
Speaker 1: lot of that language, and so I had to figure
Speaker 1: out what the language even meant practically. I mean I
Speaker 1: knew what it meant, you know, in an absolute sense.
Speaker 1: I know what a term, for instance, like extra diagetic means.
Speaker 1: But do I want to use that in a in
Speaker 1: a you know, a review of I don't ominions if
Speaker 1: I do, if I, if I am gonna do that, like,
Speaker 1: I have to really understand why why I would do
Speaker 1: it and how to make it clear to a reader,
Speaker 1: because now I think I'm older, and when you're twenty three,
Speaker 1: you just are kind of like, fuck everybody, I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna write for my friends. Yeah, and that was you're
Speaker 1: gonna pivot to that the sourus, and you're gonna use
Speaker 1: words that are probably not Yeah. I mean I I didn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was. I was probably a much more defensive critic
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways when I was twenty three.
Speaker 1: Definitely the when I was twenty three to like twenty
Speaker 1: eight than I was after. Um, I'm much more open
Speaker 1: to I like to write as simply I like to
Speaker 1: write a complex sentence or or or express a complex
Speaker 1: thought as simply as I possibly can. Um. I really
Speaker 1: like that approach to writing now. And who knows how
Speaker 1: I'll feel in ten years. Maybe that'll probably change. But
Speaker 1: I've definitely evolved to a point where where I understand
Speaker 1: what the problems with my twenty three year old self are. Um.
Speaker 1: But anyway, like, I have no expectations about about anything,
Speaker 1: and so I'm sitting on that on the side of
Speaker 1: that show. Oh, I was telling the story about Roger
Speaker 1: Ebert and and just tell that was that was one
Speaker 1: of the only moments where I was like, Oh, this
Speaker 1: is interesting, this is actually this is happening. I'm like
Speaker 1: standing on the show with people stopping Roger Ebert to
Speaker 1: say hey man, hi, and he would stop and talk
Speaker 1: to them, And UM, I just think the moment where
Speaker 1: world's collide, where you have an idea of someone and
Speaker 1: then you're with that someone for an extended period of time,
Speaker 1: it's an odd it's an odd experience. Yeah, he never
Speaker 1: to me. It's funny. I never spent enough time with
Speaker 1: him to see for him to seem entirely human to me,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? He was still We were
Speaker 1: never friends. We were always colleagues. Like he would send
Speaker 1: me emails every once in a while about random things
Speaker 1: and then sometimes about specific things that I'd written, and
Speaker 1: then I would send him notes about specific things that
Speaker 1: he'd written. But we were never friends at all. I
Speaker 1: never had a point where like, and he never knew
Speaker 1: anything really personal about me that he didn't read, and
Speaker 1: I didn't know anything personal about him that I didn't read.
Speaker 1: He definitely sort of I think, I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: he can't speak for himself now, but I definitely think
Speaker 1: that he imagined his relationship to me is much more
Speaker 1: paternal or men tour like than than buddy like. And
Speaker 1: so we'd see each other at film festivals, and you know,
Speaker 1: I was always happy to see him, but you know,
Speaker 1: Roger would go out in the world and people, especially
Speaker 1: at a film festival, like, people would just want to
Speaker 1: stand near him and hear him talk. He would hold
Speaker 1: court and he'd be interesting and even when he couldn't talk,
Speaker 1: he would find ways of holding court. Still. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it was interesting also watching that relationship change after he
Speaker 1: got sick. You know, you could find him in the palais.
Speaker 1: It can before a screening started and he would just
Speaker 1: be alone with Carol, the woman who helped take care
Speaker 1: of him, or or Chaz, and there'd be a kind
Speaker 1: of solitude about him. He didn't seem lonely or sad.
Speaker 1: He just seemed contemplative. But he definitely didn't magnetize people
Speaker 1: to him the way he pre obviastly had. But he
Speaker 1: still had a commanding presence, even like as the only
Speaker 1: person or one of the only people in an aisle
Speaker 1: at a you know, before an eight thirty in the
Speaker 1: morning movie. Right, But no, I mean I don't again
Speaker 1: like I just I am in awe of every single
Speaker 1: wonderful thing that has happened to me. I just I'm
Speaker 1: very much about moving on to do the next, to
Speaker 1: do my job, and because everything that's nice that's happened
Speaker 1: to me, or like even getting some of the work
Speaker 1: I've gotten, has not come from my really setting out
Speaker 1: to do any of that stuff. All I do is
Speaker 1: do the work and then whatever happens happens. Like a
Speaker 1: lot of things I have, I have no control over
Speaker 1: the things I can't control, you know. So that's a
Speaker 1: little bit. That's a little bit of what this is too.
Speaker 1: It's just like, Okay, I'm glad you like it. I
Speaker 1: still have to go back and make more. So I
Speaker 1: don't really think about I don't think. I mean, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't know. I tried to. I don't really spend
Speaker 1: a lot of time rereading things that I wrote, because
Speaker 1: that's depressing. Always not all well, I mean, I don't always.
Speaker 1: I always feel like in some well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's a dual track. So I'm like, I simultaneously feel
Speaker 1: like I'm getting better all the time and getting worse. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, tell me how that works. Oh, I mean
Speaker 1: you just the reason it's not very productive to go
Speaker 1: back and reread things you wrote in some ways is
Speaker 1: that you'll read it and you'll just be like, I
Speaker 1: don't even know where that came from. I don't know
Speaker 1: where that thought came from. I don't know where that
Speaker 1: the expression of that idea came from. And then I'll
Speaker 1: go back and read some things and I'm just like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, this is so windy. I would I
Speaker 1: would probably not have I probably would have lost this
Speaker 1: sentence from this graph and from this graph, from from
Speaker 1: this graph. You know, it's so great to hear you
Speaker 1: say this someone who you know. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: compliment you too much, but you're one of them, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: as you can tell, I'm not gonna have any response exactly. No,
Speaker 1: but um, I would say you're an above average writer.
Speaker 1: That that that is very that is very um teacherly
Speaker 1: if you thank you, you're welcome. Sounds like that, you're
Speaker 1: above average. You're you're not failing you, you don't have
Speaker 1: a ce um. The fact that you're you go back
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh god, I can't believe I wrote
Speaker 1: that shit. Yeah, it makes every farther back in time
Speaker 1: I go, the more likely I am to feel that way.
Speaker 1: But yeah, Well, because I read a review of yours
Speaker 1: from the Chronicle, Oh my god, and I was like, wow,
Speaker 1: it's not bad. It's it's still better than I can
Speaker 1: do and better than most people. But it's not you.
Speaker 1: I will say this as a sim as an outsider. Um,
Speaker 1: you've gotten better. Thank you. Yeah. I feel like I have.
Speaker 1: I mean I have been forced for other reasons to
Speaker 1: read things from when I was living here and writing.
Speaker 1: I mean you definitely. I mean there are things that
Speaker 1: objectively I can see that are interesting about certain things
Speaker 1: I've written. Um, the old stuff is just their time
Speaker 1: capsules of who you were in that moment, right. I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of those pieces are also like
Speaker 1: I'm in dialogue with a person that I'm no longer
Speaker 1: even thinking about whenever. Um, and I mean like an
Speaker 1: imaginary person, like a person I don't know. I mean
Speaker 1: that person was probably my age and was probably not
Speaker 1: interested in what a forty year old person thought about
Speaker 1: what I was doing. I'm forty now, so I'm now
Speaker 1: the age of the person I hated or didn't care
Speaker 1: about when I was initially doing this job. Um, do
Speaker 1: you remember a piece of yours? Who are your thought? Yes?
Speaker 1: I got this, I nailed it. Um, yeah, I'm I
Speaker 1: mean off the top of my head. I can think
Speaker 1: of things in pieces where I've where I've nailed it.
Speaker 1: I can tell you, well, I mean the thing that
Speaker 1: I mean. You'll never find this because I don't even
Speaker 1: know that it exists anymore. But I wrote a review
Speaker 1: of Oliver Stone's Alexander Okay that at that point in
Speaker 1: my life, was the most popular thing I'd ever written
Speaker 1: in terms of how people responded to it. I don't
Speaker 1: even know that the rest of the review is that good,
Speaker 1: because I haven't. I haven't read it since I wrote
Speaker 1: it at all, but I remember the first line of
Speaker 1: that review being um, Basically, I mean, I'm I'm paraphrasing
Speaker 1: because it probably required more set up to get to
Speaker 1: what I thought was funny. Um, But basically it was
Speaker 1: Oliver Stone's Alexander has many highlights and they're all on
Speaker 1: and Colin Farrell's hair um, and that was I don't
Speaker 1: know where that came from. And they were like there
Speaker 1: maybe eight hundred words that allowed that. I don't know
Speaker 1: what they're good, but that was but that was. That
Speaker 1: was a line where I was like, well, I'm done here.
Speaker 1: Even though I have to keep writing, I think I'm
Speaker 1: all set. And I mean there are probably some other
Speaker 1: things where I've felt that way. There are definitely things
Speaker 1: were like I've said thank you God a lot, like
Speaker 1: I'll have a thought that just I like. I like
Speaker 1: to run, because running, for me is a really running
Speaker 1: outside especially is really good for feeling good about where
Speaker 1: you're thinking is going. UM. And I usually try to
Speaker 1: take mental now, I don't bring a device with me
Speaker 1: to record thoughts. I just make a really strong point
Speaker 1: to just remember things that occurred to me. But I'll
Speaker 1: have a lot of I mean not a lot of
Speaker 1: thank you God moments while I'm running, but a lot
Speaker 1: of the thank You God moments I've had have come
Speaker 1: while I'm running or exercising or something where I'm just like, uh,
Speaker 1: definitely wouldn't have come up with that one if I
Speaker 1: were just sitting in my computer right now, or just
Speaker 1: like a way of approaching a particular critical thinking problem. Anyway,
Speaker 1: So to answer the question, yes, I have felt that way.
Speaker 1: Off the top of my head, I can't think of
Speaker 1: a I can't think of an entire I mean, I
Speaker 1: guess the Help review is something where I reviewed The Help,
Speaker 1: I felt like I knew, I knew the different questions
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask myself in the answers that I
Speaker 1: wanted to come up with answers for questions I had
Speaker 1: about a movie like this, because you know, I'm also
Speaker 1: aware of an audience of a movie going audience, and
Speaker 1: so a movie like The Help would have it would
Speaker 1: have been really easy for me to write a review
Speaker 1: of a movie that was like, this movie sucks. Yeah, period,
Speaker 1: But it doesn't. I mean, first of all, I don't
Speaker 1: think The Help sucks. I think that it is a
Speaker 1: it is a it is a worthy attempt to try
Speaker 1: to get at something that that people one gotten. Nat.
Speaker 1: I also but you know, I also have this exact
Speaker 1: opposite response to that movie, and I tried to sort
Speaker 1: of keep those things. I tried to keep both those
Speaker 1: arguments happening in tandem for an entire review. Um, and
Speaker 1: that's for me, one of I mean, I'm always trying
Speaker 1: to do something like that, but that's a really that
Speaker 1: to me is an example of something is a hard
Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to do, and I feel like
Speaker 1: I did it there. Yeah, I think you also did
Speaker 1: it in the Song of Solomon Peace. Oh the Twelve
Speaker 1: Years of Slave thing. Yeah, I think so. I don't
Speaker 1: remember feeling one way or the other about that review.
Speaker 1: I definitely felt like I wanted to open it out
Speaker 1: because I felt like it came along and an interesting Ye. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you did a good job. Thank you. Um. I like
Speaker 1: trying to do that whenever. I mean, now I have
Speaker 1: a job that like expects me to do it right.
Speaker 1: But um, when I was officially practicing only film criticism,
Speaker 1: I was always interested in the ways that you could
Speaker 1: tip the thing over and have it spill out into
Speaker 1: into reality. You, and I don't think you created that
Speaker 1: sort of way of writing nothing, but it seems if
Speaker 1: someone's to think about who's writing that way in film,
Speaker 1: they do land on you for doing that. You have
Speaker 1: a way of connecting the dots that I think most
Speaker 1: people cannot do, or at least they try to do
Speaker 1: but can't particularly do. Well. Do you ever feel like
Speaker 1: you're reaching Um? I always feel like, well, it's funny, No,
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm probably doing something that I always
Speaker 1: feel like every like anybody could be having this exact
Speaker 1: same thing. I'd never feel like these observations are unique
Speaker 1: to me. Okay, you know, I feel like these are
Speaker 1: things that like. And I also don't feel like I
Speaker 1: have to get there before anybody else does. I don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not like, I'm not a hot take artist. I don't.
Speaker 1: I'm not a contrarian. I'm perfectly comfortable with feeling the
Speaker 1: same way about something that everybody else does. But I
Speaker 1: always feel like there's something else probably going on with
Speaker 1: a work of popular culture, right, um, And so I'd
Speaker 1: like to know my my curiosity is really what I'm
Speaker 1: trying to satisfy as a critic. I think that everyone
Speaker 1: has that capacity to think and right that way perhaps,
Speaker 1: but when you know, like when Let's be Cops came
Speaker 1: out right, you wrote about Ferguson, you wrote which was
Speaker 1: appropriate given the time, but there weren't other articles really
Speaker 1: connecting those two. Yeah, I mean, okay, So one thing
Speaker 1: I will say about the way I think about movies
Speaker 1: in general and popular culture, well movies specifically in popular
Speaker 1: culture in general, is that like, it's all interesting, and
Speaker 1: it all comes from somewhere, and it is entirely possible
Speaker 1: for something like Lesbie Cops to not be a good
Speaker 1: movie but also but to also be an extremely interesting
Speaker 1: example of the thing that it is, and it just
Speaker 1: shows up at the right time and manages to say
Speaker 1: something without even meaning to say it about the country
Speaker 1: that we live in, or a particular moment in time,
Speaker 1: you know, particular politic political moment in time. I really do.
Speaker 1: I mean, at some point I have this idea that
Speaker 1: I was going to write a book called all All
Speaker 1: Movies Are Interesting or something like that when I was younger,
Speaker 1: because it's kind of true. I mean, you can the
Speaker 1: thing when you ask if I'm reaching, I think that
Speaker 1: there is the one of the things that I'm I
Speaker 1: try to be conscious of or I was trying to
Speaker 1: be conscious of at some point, was not letting a
Speaker 1: movie off the hook for being interesting and to make
Speaker 1: clear that there is there is a distinction to be
Speaker 1: made between good and an interesting um And the problem
Speaker 1: with daily newspaper reviewing is that there is no there's
Speaker 1: especially if you're required to then rate the movement right
Speaker 1: like let's be cops. I could spend you know, as
Speaker 1: long as I spent writing. I mean I'd never I
Speaker 1: would never have been able to do that for a
Speaker 1: daily newspapers. And there's column space and that, but there,
Speaker 1: but there also is just like the the actual reader
Speaker 1: expectation that would require that would make them want to know,
Speaker 1: is this a movie I should see? So I have
Speaker 1: figured out now how to do how to get that
Speaker 1: out of the way, the kind of as soon as possible,
Speaker 1: so that it's clear that what you're reading is is
Speaker 1: both a work of criticism and uh like a qualitative
Speaker 1: evaluation of the thing I'm writing about, but then to
Speaker 1: complicate by saying what else it is and where else
Speaker 1: it fits? I think Grantland really facilitated that approach in
Speaker 1: ways that no other place to let you do before,
Speaker 1: No that's true. I mean I think that the only
Speaker 1: limit before while there was time and then there was space,
Speaker 1: and I had an unlimited amount of space at Grantland,
Speaker 1: and I had more time. Um, because it was you know,
Speaker 1: went straight to the went straight to the web. So
Speaker 1: it wasn't there wasn't the procedural aspect of getting something
Speaker 1: published wasn't as complicated. Um, there weren't as many people
Speaker 1: involved in the in the production process. But um, I
Speaker 1: don't know, there's no but I mean Grantland was great
Speaker 1: for that. It was it was this the best job
Speaker 1: I've ever had. It's probably the best job I ever
Speaker 1: will have. Um. Let me ask you when that when
Speaker 1: you were there pretty much in the beginning, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I started in two thousand eleven. I started writing in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven that that same June. I think, So,
Speaker 1: when you guys were creating this this thing, was there
Speaker 1: any party of the thought that it wouldn't work? Sure?
Speaker 1: I think we all thought that, like it was too
Speaker 1: good to be true? Or was it just so? I mean,
Speaker 1: the too good to be true part only happened later, right,
Speaker 1: the two good to be true part happened. I mean,
Speaker 1: at least for me. I'm sure everybody has a has
Speaker 1: a what they're too good to be true moment was
Speaker 1: but mine didn't come until mine didn't come until much later,
Speaker 1: once it was clear that like, we were doing a
Speaker 1: thing that could be done unto eternity at the level
Speaker 1: at which we were doing it, as long as we
Speaker 1: had the largesse of you know, ESPN or Disney sort
Speaker 1: of saying that I could continue to do it. Did
Speaker 1: you ever get a rationalist to why they wouldn't help
Speaker 1: that site grow? No, No, it's just baffling them, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I've heard the podcast and Bill talk about it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, Bill is probably the person with the with
Speaker 1: the most illuminating and probably correct theories about what happened.
Speaker 1: But no, I think that my personal, my personal feeling
Speaker 1: about it is they really liked the site. They really
Speaker 1: didn't have any anticipation that it would do as well
Speaker 1: as it did. I think, I don't know, I'm really
Speaker 1: the thing that I'm really curious about, and I think
Speaker 1: that others of us feel this way too, is I
Speaker 1: would have liked to have seen what would have happened
Speaker 1: if we were if we were forced to fend for
Speaker 1: ourselves in a more explicit way, like if we were
Speaker 1: not in like a naked you know, we need you
Speaker 1: to write stories that get a certain number of page views,
Speaker 1: but we I mean, we would do these live events
Speaker 1: and people would line up to see them. And I
Speaker 1: would have been one of the people in line to
Speaker 1: see some of this stuff if I hadn't worked at
Speaker 1: the site, right, Um, which is a good thing to
Speaker 1: say about your place support, right, I mean, I just
Speaker 1: would have wanted to be a participant in some of
Speaker 1: this of some of this stuff, I would have been
Speaker 1: a daily reader of that side if I didn't work there. Um,
Speaker 1: I would have liked to have seen what we could
Speaker 1: have done if we were basically doing what the Ringer
Speaker 1: is currently going to do, which is not peopleholden to
Speaker 1: a to a corporate overlord, but also not even beholding
Speaker 1: We were never beholding the ESPN. We were just sort
Speaker 1: of I don't know, we were we had we were
Speaker 1: spoiled and also kind of stifled in a lot of
Speaker 1: ways by how generous weird J Yeah, I mean it's
Speaker 1: rare and it's a bizarre thing to complain about, but
Speaker 1: it was true, like we couldn't you know, they were
Speaker 1: just there, were they didn't you know, whatever money we
Speaker 1: would have been bringing in and the scheme of things
Speaker 1: was a drop in the bucket compared to what else
Speaker 1: was going on at the company. Right. Um, but I
Speaker 1: don't know, I really feel like it would have been
Speaker 1: fun to try to make that to see what else
Speaker 1: we could have done, because I felt like when Bill
Speaker 1: got suspended that that was the best year we'd ever
Speaker 1: had content wise, which was twenty thirteen or two thousand, No,
Speaker 1: twenty and fourteen was when he got suspended. Um, that
Speaker 1: was our best That was our best content year. Um,
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean we were adventurous. We were like
Speaker 1: expanding into places that we didn't think we would ever
Speaker 1: grow into. Um, we were we had reached this level
Speaker 1: where the only the only option was to go even broader. Um,
Speaker 1: and then it was clear that just wasn't going to happen. Right.
Speaker 1: At some point, you don't seem like a particular nostalgic person,
Speaker 1: But even for grant it seems Grantland is the exception. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think. I mean, I I was speaking only for myself.
Speaker 1: I will never get over the loss of that site
Speaker 1: and job, right, I mean, look, we all, for most
Speaker 1: for the most part, we're all great and if anything,
Speaker 1: it made our lives better. Yeah, you're working at The
Speaker 1: York Times. And I'm sure there's somebody who I'm not
Speaker 1: thinking of right now who was at the site when
Speaker 1: it closed, whose life isn't better professionally, And I I
Speaker 1: can't most I will say, for the most part, there
Speaker 1: all we're all raw better. But I think for the
Speaker 1: most part, I think we all we all none of
Speaker 1: us would have left if we didn't have to leave.
Speaker 1: When you enter the New York Times, the article that
Speaker 1: comes out, and here's an exact line I have it,
Speaker 1: Ao Scott said, he's like Oscar Wild, breathtakingly funny and
Speaker 1: absolutely serious in the same breath. Um that check leard.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, I don't know, I don't I'm glad. I'm
Speaker 1: it's very flattering that he feels that way. That's that's
Speaker 1: a lot. That's like, I don't even know. I don't
Speaker 1: even know that it's true. I don't know. I don't
Speaker 1: read myself. It doesn't matter, it doesn't matter if it's true.
Speaker 1: It was printed and um, yeah, no, it's no, it's
Speaker 1: it's extreme. It's like one of the nicest is the
Speaker 1: single nicest thing anybody's ever said to me in print. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like it's like they don't even quote what the Politzer
Speaker 1: people said. That comes up a lot, But that that
Speaker 1: Tony Scott quote, like it's really nice. I actually don't know.
Speaker 1: The Other thing about me is I don't I once
Speaker 1: it's out there, I assume I am onto the next thing.
Speaker 1: I'm either waiting for, like I'm waiting for a tsunami
Speaker 1: of disapproval or contempt or something, or I'm waiting for
Speaker 1: somebody to like say that something is not correct. Um,
Speaker 1: But the nice things that people, I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know one of the things that that. As a person
Speaker 1: who spends his life watching things go up and then
Speaker 1: go down, I am fully aware of what this how
Speaker 1: it works, you know how the physics of quality work.
Speaker 1: And I all I can do is keep doing my job.
Speaker 1: But at some point, I just fully expect everybody to
Speaker 1: be like, oh my God, Jesus Christ, whatever, Uh yeah,
Speaker 1: we're moving on from you, right or not? Even I
Speaker 1: don't know how to put this, like, I just I
Speaker 1: am always surprising people like something I rate. I just
Speaker 1: I just for sure am I don't expect it to happen.
Speaker 1: It's very very nice, and I take very little time
Speaker 1: to appreciate the fact that it happened. I am because
Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of ways it is it
Speaker 1: is work, like you do have to keep doing your job,
Speaker 1: and so it really helps to not be big headed.
Speaker 1: It really helps to remember that you have to keep working. Um.
Speaker 1: And it also I think a humbling thing for me
Speaker 1: is well, I can't only say that because I don't
Speaker 1: believe it's okay. Well, I was just gonna say that
Speaker 1: I was just going to talk about the art of
Speaker 1: criticism and that that that it really is an art. Um. Oh,
Speaker 1: I do, I do believe that. I just think that
Speaker 1: it is an art that you can't, like you can't
Speaker 1: paint something and sit there and look at it all day.
Speaker 1: You have to keep you have to keep it going.
Speaker 1: So it's not it's a weird art, right, It's like
Speaker 1: it's a mechanical art where you know, you kind of
Speaker 1: are working on a kind of assembly line and like
Speaker 1: once the thing has sort of passed your station, you
Speaker 1: just have to keep building something. That's a horrible, uh analogy,
Speaker 1: But I mean it's not, it's not entirely incorrect. Um,
Speaker 1: just just not all have time to sit there and
Speaker 1: be like, yeah, I made that. There just isn't even
Speaker 1: when people want to talk to you about something you made,
Speaker 1: like from a media standpoint, like I'm already probably working
Speaker 1: on two or three other things and don't mind talking
Speaker 1: about it. But um, and it's funny because they're never
Speaker 1: really interested in talking about the thing I wrote. They
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about the thing I wrote about. So
Speaker 1: you know, in a lot of ways I am. My
Speaker 1: relationship to my subjects is it's almost purely repertorial in
Speaker 1: some ways. You know, Um, I'm never really talking about
Speaker 1: how I wrote, what I wrote, or what I wrote.
Speaker 1: It's more about the subject matter. Right, You're what's the
Speaker 1: official position title at the at the Times critic at large.
Speaker 1: It was an invented position, right. That job did not
Speaker 1: exist at the moment I took it. There are about
Speaker 1: other people who've done a similar job at the Times. Um,
Speaker 1: what I'm interested in is like, forget get the like
Speaker 1: it was a big deal that that that they did
Speaker 1: that that quote. We don't have to go over over that.
Speaker 1: It's more do you ever feel that like you're being
Speaker 1: asked to do the same thing all the time, and
Speaker 1: that you're being pigeonholed because I feel you are always
Speaker 1: a person that people seem to go to when like
Speaker 1: when Dope came out or the Help or like you
Speaker 1: have I don't want to say the race beat, but
Speaker 1: in a way, you're like that tanahsse Coats are writing
Speaker 1: about movies and pop culture and you're great at it.
Speaker 1: I think you're an above Sorry, you're above average at it.
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Um, But do you feel like
Speaker 1: do you feel trapped now? I mean I don't, because
Speaker 1: I know I can write about anything. Okay, I don't
Speaker 1: feel I mean I do feel. I mean in that
Speaker 1: same long form podcast that I did, I was I
Speaker 1: also sort of talked about the my relationship to writing
Speaker 1: about race, which was that it is sort of a
Speaker 1: moral duty to write about how race in popular culture works, right,
Speaker 1: And it's not as though it well when I started
Speaker 1: doing it, I mean when I when I when I
Speaker 1: was made to feel aware of my doing it a lot.
Speaker 1: I would say, like the mid two thousands, when I
Speaker 1: was at the Boston Globe, I think it was it
Speaker 1: was it was uncomfortable for a lot of people. You know,
Speaker 1: the Boston Globe locally is a predominantly white readership. And
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, given Boston has its own
Speaker 1: relationship to race, and my finding racism and looking at
Speaker 1: the way race works in movies that aren't explicitly racial
Speaker 1: or aren't explicitly about race or racism was disconcerting for
Speaker 1: a lot of people because it's it made it. It
Speaker 1: seemed to them like I was rooting around for trouble
Speaker 1: that didn't really exist, which is not my I mean,
Speaker 1: that is a very sort of to use to you know,
Speaker 1: to speak in the common parlance. That is a very
Speaker 1: privileged way to look at at how culture works. Right, Um,
Speaker 1: whereas you know, I go to a movie and I
Speaker 1: see a black person in the movie, and the first
Speaker 1: thing I'm asking myself is what is this black person
Speaker 1: doing here? Like? What function is this Asian person serving
Speaker 1: in this in this white person's movie? Like is this
Speaker 1: person here for jokes? Is this person here to to
Speaker 1: serve the white people? And so I'd like to comment
Speaker 1: on that just a little bit. The whole review isn't
Speaker 1: about how this Asian person is here to be laughed
Speaker 1: at or made fun of. It's just I'm going to
Speaker 1: mention that this is also on top of everything else
Speaker 1: or in addition to everything else, a movie that finds
Speaker 1: it funny to sort of like, you know, elbow this
Speaker 1: Asian guy for being Asian. So what is it like
Speaker 1: when you're writing because in dope is this made by
Speaker 1: a black man? Right? And you wrote I just have
Speaker 1: it here the elevator pitch requires a second elevator. That's
Speaker 1: almost like the hairline that you made about alexand like that,
Speaker 1: that's that's a great line. I remember reading that at
Speaker 1: Sundance and then it sort of ends with you saying
Speaker 1: that he's feeding he's feeding them black shit that white
Speaker 1: people like. Um yeah, I mean I couldn't say that
Speaker 1: at the times. I'd have to find a different a
Speaker 1: different word. But I mean I do believe. I mean, okay,
Speaker 1: that is probably one of the harsher pieces of of
Speaker 1: of criticism aimed at a particular director. Um but I
Speaker 1: really hate that movie. I really actively hate it. And
Speaker 1: I think that you reading that, but you know there's
Speaker 1: a there's a because there's a way. I think there's
Speaker 1: a way to make that movie if somebody else made it,
Speaker 1: um where, I might not like it, but I don't
Speaker 1: hate it because it is coming from an author somebody's
Speaker 1: authentic light like that is. This is a person who
Speaker 1: has one story to tell, and this is it. This
Speaker 1: is a guy who's looking for somebody's authentic ish story,
Speaker 1: and it's looking for a way to repackage that to
Speaker 1: to you know, catapult his dormant career. I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't even know that this is true, right, I can
Speaker 1: only extrapolate from this person's previous body of work what
Speaker 1: this movie is doing, what feels phony and false about
Speaker 1: it to me? Uh, and what it wound up doing.
Speaker 1: I mean I couldn't have known this when I wrote
Speaker 1: the piece, but what it wound up doing for this
Speaker 1: person after the fact? Um And I mean he this
Speaker 1: person will probably work foreseeably on any number of television projects.
Speaker 1: He'll probably be able to make some features. I mean
Speaker 1: he'll be He is in a he's in a better
Speaker 1: position now after that movie than he was before. It
Speaker 1: definitely is up. Yes, you you rightly and sadly predicted
Speaker 1: the movie is at the White Marketplace. Didn't I didn't
Speaker 1: even I just sat there and watched people watch it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it doesn't make a ship for money if
Speaker 1: you were at Sundance as well, which is right? I
Speaker 1: mean it is at an altitude that is higher than
Speaker 1: the way most people experienced their movie. But that's not
Speaker 1: what I meant. Well, right, it also is the white.
Speaker 1: It's predominantly yeah, white, of course, but the people. I
Speaker 1: don't know what the demographics were for the movie's ultimate release,
Speaker 1: but I could just see by the way more black
Speaker 1: people were uncomfortable watching that movie than white people who
Speaker 1: felt really good watching it, that it was a movie made.
Speaker 1: And also the chip on its shoulder wasn't a chip
Speaker 1: that black people put on its shoulder. It was a chip.
Speaker 1: It was trying to have an attitude with white people,
Speaker 1: making a problem out of a problem that this movie
Speaker 1: is propagating. The chip is baffling to get specific, Like
Speaker 1: at the end, oh the Harvard and he's like yeah, fuck,
Speaker 1: And I'm like what what what paper are you? Are
Speaker 1: you sending that to an IVY Lee school? No IVY leagues?
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. It felt phoned in well
Speaker 1: it also, I don't extremely fake, and it felt like
Speaker 1: a person It felt like the sort of thing that
Speaker 1: could come only from a person who hadn't experienced one
Speaker 1: iota of what what led up to any of that?
Speaker 1: And you know, the thing that caught me the most
Speaker 1: was that he does the dance at the end of
Speaker 1: the movie anyway. Yeah, you know, he's still dancing, um
Speaker 1: and it's whatever that Yeah, So that is an example
Speaker 1: of something where I felt like I couldn't let this
Speaker 1: movie get away with the thing that. I mean, as
Speaker 1: much as I would have preferred to write that about
Speaker 1: a white person telling that story about black people, I
Speaker 1: feel like that well, I mean, it doesn't feel good
Speaker 1: to know that that there is I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: like it was a surprise to me to discover that
Speaker 1: black people are just as good as exploiting are like
Speaker 1: each other as white people are exploiting black people. But
Speaker 1: it's just it is an uncomfortable thing to do because
Speaker 1: you also want black movies to succeed, right, Like, I
Speaker 1: didn't want the movie to fail, but I also wanted
Speaker 1: to be I wanted to make it clear that I
Speaker 1: just kind of disagreed. I just sort of morally disagree
Speaker 1: with this existence and wanted to to present that disagreement.
Speaker 1: And it's fair a possible. I mean, I do argue
Speaker 1: you do. I mean, I made myself out the two.
Speaker 1: But I'm just I'm just saying that that in the
Speaker 1: scheme of things. The thing that I feel most comfortable
Speaker 1: being what if I am harsh? I feel like it
Speaker 1: can only happen if I've I've reached where I've laid
Speaker 1: enough critical groundwork to be able to say, like and
Speaker 1: fuck you? Do you think you are hardest on harder
Speaker 1: on artists of color than than elsewhere because of you
Speaker 1: feel like you went into that movie. There's a few things,
Speaker 1: the fact that he's going to an Ivy League school.
Speaker 1: You went to Yale. There's a lot that I can
Speaker 1: see it bothered me, but I can understand why, Like
Speaker 1: a lot of that was frustrating. But I'm just wondering,
Speaker 1: not like is it personal in some ways or like yes,
Speaker 1: but also because you have you know, you grew up
Speaker 1: in Philadelphia, you have you have a wealth of knowledge
Speaker 1: and background. So when approaching that, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: just uh, yeah, I mean, I mean, ultimately, with anything,
Speaker 1: I'm more interested in, like what feels right? You were
Speaker 1: especially frustrated with the authenticity No, because okay, so with
Speaker 1: a movie like Dope, movie like Dope is presenting itself
Speaker 1: is authentic, right it is? I am not why I
Speaker 1: am not receiving this and I'm not only receiving this
Speaker 1: and saying this doesn't this I smell around here. This
Speaker 1: is a movie that is saying I smell a rat
Speaker 1: in these other places, and here I am presenting you
Speaker 1: a true version of ratness. Right. It almost tricked me
Speaker 1: because they had a good soundtrack, like they played tribe
Speaker 1: called Quest, and I was like, oh, but there's a
Speaker 1: lot of things in like the idea that these kids
Speaker 1: would have a hard time in school is true, Like
Speaker 1: I probably could have been, Well, I couldn't have been
Speaker 1: one of those kids, because the problem with this movie
Speaker 1: is it wants to have it both ways. Right. These
Speaker 1: kids are nerds, they're skate nerds, they're in a band.
Speaker 1: The other black kids at their school don't like them,
Speaker 1: which in twenty fifteen is totally not true. Like those
Speaker 1: kids are the most popular kids at their school period, right,
Speaker 1: and yet we're supposedly their outcasts and they don't fit
Speaker 1: in anywhere, and that they're not cool, but they're just
Speaker 1: not gangsters, right Yeah, And so the movie, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's funny because because um Kiano is doing a similar thing,
Speaker 1: but it is it's a much smarter movie and much
Speaker 1: less ambitious, and in its in its lack of ambition,
Speaker 1: winds up getting a lot more argued successfully than a
Speaker 1: movie like Dope, because Dope also wants to be extremely commercial,
Speaker 1: but it wants to be commercial in the way that
Speaker 1: it thinks a movie going audience will accept black people.
Speaker 1: And this is I mean, we don't have time to
Speaker 1: argue the differences between Kiano and Dope, but I do
Speaker 1: think that There's a There's a Dope is one hundred
Speaker 1: percent cynical. It is one hundred percent not interested in
Speaker 1: like true black experience. It's a It's interested in presenting
Speaker 1: like a diet version of that in order to pass
Speaker 1: itself off as real, but also to remain commodifiable and
Speaker 1: commercially viable in a marketplace. And I mean, there's probably
Speaker 1: a way to do that so that you can be
Speaker 1: authentic and popular, but this movie doesn't have any idea
Speaker 1: how to be both. At the same time, you mentioned
Speaker 1: moral duty like a few times, and I'm fascinated because
Speaker 1: I think Roger had that as well. He often talked
Speaker 1: about the morality of movies and his writing, and I
Speaker 1: do think a lot of film writing or pop culture
Speaker 1: writing u seems not to remove morality, but it's it's
Speaker 1: almost like the films are approached at arms at arms
Speaker 1: reach arms distance, and it doesn't seem I think it
Speaker 1: was what makes you w any strong. It's like you're
Speaker 1: never removing. That's it means. It's like it's there, You're
Speaker 1: you're on the page almost all the time. It would
Speaker 1: be one thing if the movies weren't. I mean, like
Speaker 1: if you just look at the way Marvel movies work,
Speaker 1: for instance, they're not. They don't they don't pretend that
Speaker 1: what's happening in the world isn't happening, at least from
Speaker 1: the from the standpoint of like the military industry, industry
Speaker 1: industrial complex, like it acknowledges that there is a system
Speaker 1: by which defense contracting gets done. It understands it there's
Speaker 1: a military, and it defends things and understands that there
Speaker 1: are branches of the government that can't be trusted. I mean,
Speaker 1: there is just a valance. I mean, it understands the
Speaker 1: way in which the government as an apparatus makes life good, bad, difficult, easy,
Speaker 1: And it would be crazy for me, as a citizen
Speaker 1: and as a moviegoer not to at least acknowledge that
Speaker 1: aspect of certain Marvel movies, because those movies acknowledge that
Speaker 1: that world does exist too, and it's it's not even
Speaker 1: an acknowledgement, it is an active part of say The
Speaker 1: Captain American movies. Those movies don't work without some awareness
Speaker 1: of the way it thinks the American government defense system works. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's impossible for me to review a movie about
Speaker 1: that and not like question the way that movie uses
Speaker 1: those ideas. But I mean, at the same time, I mean,
Speaker 1: the morality is one thing, but I'm also interested in
Speaker 1: how make movies make me feel like what? Like what
Speaker 1: like bodily fluids? Does it bring out of me? Like?
Speaker 1: What does it make me happy? Does it make me sad?
Speaker 1: Does it remind me of things? I mean, I think
Speaker 1: those are really fun things to try to process too.
Speaker 1: And you know, if you see a movie and it
Speaker 1: makes you feel anything, or if you see anything, you know,
Speaker 1: any sort of work of popular culture to listen, to read, watch,
Speaker 1: if it affects you or moves you or bores you
Speaker 1: or some things you, I feel like you have a
Speaker 1: you also have a duty to report that. And I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot I mean, when I read a
Speaker 1: lot of film writing, the sensation part is the thing
Speaker 1: that I I mean, when I read writing criticism of
Speaker 1: any kind, the thing that I most want is send
Speaker 1: I mean, I want intelligence and all of those other things.
Speaker 1: But I feel you also can't quite get to that
Speaker 1: those points without some degree of relationship in terms of
Speaker 1: between the thing you watched and how the thing you
Speaker 1: watched me made you feel. I've never read a piece
Speaker 1: of you're writing or I thought you were bored or
Speaker 1: you were not so much bored by the movie, but
Speaker 1: that you're always I don't know if it's excitable, but
Speaker 1: it's like you have passion and you seem to have
Speaker 1: an endless supply of it, even though the sort of
Speaker 1: at the end of the speech yesterday you talked about,
Speaker 1: you know, you mentioned how most movies are not what
Speaker 1: was aligned exactly, It was, well, they're not talking about anything.
Speaker 1: They're not talking about anything. So how do you manage
Speaker 1: to keep talking about everything when these movies are most
Speaker 1: movies are not talking about anything. I don't know. And
Speaker 1: the thing that I was saying before about the physics
Speaker 1: of how we do what we do, I don't know.
Speaker 1: At some point if this is, like, I mean, one
Speaker 1: of the things is one of the reasons I never
Speaker 1: sit back, and I'm like, oh, that was a good one.
Speaker 1: Is because I always I think and you you know,
Speaker 1: if anybody who spends enough time writing about directors should
Speaker 1: know this, Like at some point you just start to
Speaker 1: start to lose it. You know, you just aren't as
Speaker 1: good as at some point as you used to be.
Speaker 1: And then there are people who who who at some
Speaker 1: point you know, I'm about the age. I don't know
Speaker 1: what I mean. I have to look at this and see,
Speaker 1: like what the average age of peaking is for like
Speaker 1: for peeple, for filmmakers I like, or like musicians I like.
Speaker 1: But I would say I'm somewhere in the peaking area, right,
Speaker 1: I mean I have already peeked. I don't know, but
Speaker 1: I'm somewhere in that, like somewhere between thirty five and
Speaker 1: fifty is that zone, right? And I mean obviously many
Speaker 1: many people have done amazing work past fifty and before
Speaker 1: thirty five. But I would say, I mean, this is
Speaker 1: an interesting thing to pull, right, or like you could
Speaker 1: probably you don't even need to have a I mean,
Speaker 1: if some of its subjective, it's probably all entirely subjective
Speaker 1: when it comes to the question I'm actually asking, which
Speaker 1: is which is like what happens to does the energy
Speaker 1: run out? Right? Like do I suddenly just get bored
Speaker 1: doing this? And there are a lot of days where
Speaker 1: I'm like this is dumb. Really no, I mean yes, yes, no,
Speaker 1: like really like, I mean I believe in it, but
Speaker 1: you know, it's like six o'clock in the morning and
Speaker 1: you're like dragging yourself across your apartment, You're like getting
Speaker 1: dressed to go to work, and You're just like, what
Speaker 1: do I have to do today? Oh? Right, I have
Speaker 1: to write something that sounds smart about girls? Is that
Speaker 1: really important? And then I'm like, yes it is. I
Speaker 1: get to a point where like, yeah, it's fucking important,
Speaker 1: but it takes it Like sometimes there are days when
Speaker 1: it just takes a little bit longer to get to like,
Speaker 1: guess this is important. Some days it's like instant, like
Speaker 1: I don't even have to There is no sort of
Speaker 1: meta conversation you have to have with yourself about whether
Speaker 1: or not you should be doing what you're doing. But
Speaker 1: I will never really ever be satisfy with what I'm
Speaker 1: doing because I live in constant fear that I will
Speaker 1: lose the will to do it because I don't really
Speaker 1: I mean The thing about my relationship to criticism is
Speaker 1: that I don't really have a lot of control over it, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, I can talk to you about how my talent,
Speaker 1: how talented I am, or like how smart I am
Speaker 1: or how much I know, But what are those things really, right? Like,
Speaker 1: I don't have any control over what my brain does
Speaker 1: when I sit down and talk to write. I really don't, like,
Speaker 1: I don't have a strategy. I just hope for the best.
Speaker 1: I really hope that my brain just works that day.
Speaker 1: And I mean, I don't know how else to put
Speaker 1: it is a completely cosmic, spiritual, beyond my control sort
Speaker 1: of thing. I don't know how it's not like and
Speaker 1: I guess athletes would probably say a similar thing, right, Like,
Speaker 1: I mean they can sit there. I mean, I write
Speaker 1: every day, and the writing every day sort of makes
Speaker 1: it easier to know how to write, Like I know
Speaker 1: how to construct a sentence. I know how to play
Speaker 1: with sentence construction and how to be like cute with language.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, it's a pitch
Speaker 1: and your eye and a bat and like the relationship
Speaker 1: among those three things has to make perfect sense, you know,
Speaker 1: or like, I mean, we're in the Bay Area. I
Speaker 1: can talk about Steph Curry. I'm not Steph Curry, but
Speaker 1: like you watch him play basketball, and there are things
Speaker 1: about his basketball playing that are automatic, like he's taken
Speaker 1: the billion zillion three point shots. But like Steph Curry
Speaker 1: couldn't tell you how he makes his three point shots
Speaker 1: look like they should go on the louver, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. He couldn't tell you how he does that.
Speaker 1: He just knows the mechanics of making a three point shot.
Speaker 1: And so I mean, I just compare myself to Steph Curry.
Speaker 1: Just pretend that I'm not talking about the Steph Curry
Speaker 1: but a guy who does a thing very well. But
Speaker 1: I don't really have any But the point really is,
Speaker 1: I don't really have any control over anything else, you know.
Speaker 1: And then there are days like I feel like there
Speaker 1: are a lot of days were like I felt more
Speaker 1: like Serena Williams and I do like Steph Curry, where
Speaker 1: Like there are days where I just don't I got
Speaker 1: to force myself to do it, like winning ugly. I
Speaker 1: feel like there are a lot of days like the
Speaker 1: day Prince died. I was writing three different things. That
Speaker 1: was a winning ugly day. You know I won at all.
Speaker 1: You know, it's crazy. Um. I listened to because you
Speaker 1: went on Simmons podcast and he said, are you writing
Speaker 1: something about Prince? And you weren't excited about it, not
Speaker 1: because Prince had died, but I could sense that there
Speaker 1: was something like you had to respond now, oh, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: because my instinct was to wait. My instinct, my my
Speaker 1: non news, non journalism instinct, was like, I have two
Speaker 1: other things to rate. Is there any way we can
Speaker 1: just put this off for four days. I was not
Speaker 1: excited to write that piece. But then you know, I
Speaker 1: hung off the phone with Bill. I got off the
Speaker 1: phone with Bill. I had finished. I think when did
Speaker 1: I did I talk? I talk to him on a Friday,
Speaker 1: So I that piece. Oh, I think I'd already written
Speaker 1: that piece out there right. It wasn't out, no, it was,
Speaker 1: but it was it was ready to go. I think
Speaker 1: I wrote that piece. I mean part of the reason
Speaker 1: I probably didn't sound excited because because I hadn't slept.
Speaker 1: I say, it up on I to write that piece.
Speaker 1: So I had not slept one wink. I think I
Speaker 1: slept for thirty five minutes at my desk like this,
Speaker 1: But that was it. Um, so, I mean you, I
Speaker 1: was excited probably before I was definitely excited to write
Speaker 1: the piece in as much as you can be excited
Speaker 1: to write something about, you know, the death of someone
Speaker 1: who you love, um or his work you love. Uh.
Speaker 1: But you know, I also again was just like, dear God,
Speaker 1: please let something fun happen while I sit down to
Speaker 1: write this story. That's all I ever want, like or like,
Speaker 1: don't let me embarrass myself. UM, That's all I That's
Speaker 1: all I can ask for when I when I do this,
Speaker 1: I think you've done a good job of not embarrassing yourself.
Speaker 1: I mean, let's let's talk. I don't know. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you. I feel like i've I've not done a
Speaker 1: terrible job at that, but you just never know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's okay, Thanks for doing this. Sure, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: All right, man, there it is. Thanks again to Wesley
Speaker 1: for the words of wisdom and for coming on the show.
Speaker 1: You can read his work on a weekly basis at
Speaker 1: The New York Times, where it continues to write illuminatingly
Speaker 1: on everything from lemonade to Prince. You can also hear
Speaker 1: him sporadically on the Bill Simmons podcast, and also look
Speaker 1: below in the show notes to read all the pieces
Speaker 1: we discussed throughout the conversation. A special thanks once again
Speaker 1: to Loudra Millinari and Tom Winterbottom at the San Francisco
Speaker 1: Film Society for helping make this interview happen and for
Speaker 1: being generous with their headquarters space throughout the fifty nine
Speaker 1: San Francisco International Film Festival. Remember to subscribe to the
Speaker 1: show on iTunes and soundclod or your favorite podcasting app.
Speaker 1: If you want to send mail of any kind, hate mail,
Speaker 1: love letters, love letters about how great lemonade is, whatever
Speaker 1: you want, email the show at talk easypod at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. I promise I read every one of these.
Speaker 1: You can also follow the show on Twitter and Facebook
Speaker 1: at talk easypod. Lastly, if you have a spare moment
Speaker 1: and you're busy day, please give us a review on iTunes.
Speaker 1: It helps us reach new listeners. Our theme music is
Speaker 1: provided by Vanilla. Our executive producer is David Chen, Graphics
Speaker 1: by Ian Jones. Technical assistance provided by Joe Stillwater. The
Speaker 1: show is produced and edited by Corea Tad and I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Sam Fragoso. Thank you for listening. We'll see
Speaker 1: you next week.