Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Ye
Speaker 1: welcome back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as
Speaker 1: always so much for tuning in. Let's give it up
Speaker 1: for the breakout star of our program, super producer, the
Speaker 1: one and only Mr Max Williams. Kids Going Places, Kid's
Speaker 1: Going Places. This podcast they think just might work out
Speaker 1: for him. Uh they call me Ben, you're Noel and Noel. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is I think a special episode for us. It's
Speaker 1: one that we've been pretty excited about. I almost don't
Speaker 1: want to spoil it? Should we just? Okay, let's just
Speaker 1: talk about this. Well, it's in the title. People probably
Speaker 1: gotta have at least an inkling as to what's going
Speaker 1: I thought, yeah, yeah, a lot of possible to spoil
Speaker 1: reality television, though, I mean, I guess it is. You know,
Speaker 1: that's all. There's moments, there's cliffhangers, there's big reveals. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's you know, it's just another form of drama. Right
Speaker 1: before we get to our big reveal today, folks, we
Speaker 1: do need to point out that, uh, this is an
Speaker 1: episode about reality television. If you which can be divisive,
Speaker 1: if you hate reality television, you're gonna have fun here
Speaker 1: still if you love it, you're going to hopefully still
Speaker 1: have fun. Because love it or hate it, reality TV
Speaker 1: is one of the most popular television formats on the planet.
Speaker 1: It's also, you'll hear it called incorporate parlance unscripted programming,
Speaker 1: just meaning that performers involved aren't really working from a
Speaker 1: script in theory. Uh. Today there are countless different versions
Speaker 1: of this sort of thing, and every subject or genre imaginable,
Speaker 1: from like the hazards of law of the surviving in
Speaker 1: the wild to cooking to hunting ghosts. But how do
Speaker 1: we get here? Today's question? What's the history of reality television? Nol?
Speaker 1: I think it's time for our first big reveal. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: other things of love too, Right, there's hazards, there's rocks,
Speaker 1: there's lots lots of lots of love related ones. But yeah,
Speaker 1: big reveal. Uh? Is that the history of reality television
Speaker 1: unscripted as you coyly referred to it as well, well,
Speaker 1: let me know, is referred to as is ridiculous. It's absurd. Uh,
Speaker 1: It's not just a little bit divisive for a good reason.
Speaker 1: It's like wrestling, but only I think some people don't
Speaker 1: know that it's not entirely real. Hey kfebe hashtag KFB Yeah,
Speaker 1: whatever that means. I don't know what that is? What
Speaker 1: do is cap? Yeah, it's good, it's good, it'll land
Speaker 1: for some people. It's it's it's the idea of maintain
Speaker 1: the illusion. But that's not the big reveal. All the
Speaker 1: big reveal is that we're not going into this alone? Right?
Speaker 1: How could we? How could we ever venture into these
Speaker 1: dark waters? A low? No. Today, we are thrilled to
Speaker 1: be joined with our very special guest and good friend,
Speaker 1: Anna hosting, A who produces tons of shows here at
Speaker 1: I Heeart, including Daily Zeitgeist. She's the creator and co
Speaker 1: host Definitely Ambiguous, the founder of the fantastic I Heart
Speaker 1: Next Up initiative, which gives opportunities to young podcasters from
Speaker 1: various backgrounds and underserved demographics, and of course, a regular
Speaker 1: contributor and producer of Will you accept this? Rose? Anna?
Speaker 1: Will you accept this guest spot on Ridiculous History Today? Yes?
Speaker 1: I will thank you for having me. Also, No, then
Speaker 1: we would have a cliffhanger. To be a cliffhanger here,
Speaker 1: we'd regroup and we figure out how to But it
Speaker 1: wouldn't I would go in I go into vo voice,
Speaker 1: making a sound like an ad break and say, will
Speaker 1: you know I'm not gonna do it now because you
Speaker 1: said yes. You can also check on on twitch where
Speaker 1: she hosts Deckheads, Chief Stews and Anna this is where
Speaker 1: you talk about below deck and a ton of other
Speaker 1: Bravo shows like The Real Housewives, Empire, Summer House, Southern Charm,
Speaker 1: you name it, we made it happen. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us today. For anybody who's not aware
Speaker 1: or didn't get the didn't get the vibe from all
Speaker 1: the stuff we just listed on is very very busy,
Speaker 1: and her contract, the writer, and her contract is crazy,
Speaker 1: so we had to save up for this. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: Actually it states that you guys all have to watch
Speaker 1: reality TV with me for a week before I'll come
Speaker 1: to any show. So there's what we were hoping to
Speaker 1: do in this story with our resident expert on reality television,
Speaker 1: which is of course on, is to look at the
Speaker 1: true history of how this became such a global phenomenon.
Speaker 1: And I don't know about you all, but before I
Speaker 1: was really diving into the research on this, I had
Speaker 1: just sort of a reality TV was kind of a
Speaker 1: thing that birthed in the nineties nineties. I think we
Speaker 1: all remember the Real World program on MTV, right, like
Speaker 1: shout out Puck. I guess that's what very young me remembers.
Speaker 1: Weird Beard. Remember a weird beard is like alter ego.
Speaker 1: I don't know why that stands out. And there was
Speaker 1: that British guy that was in like the metal band
Speaker 1: who sent his girlfriend like a pig's heart with a
Speaker 1: nail through it or something. What was that guy's name?
Speaker 1: A lot of weirdos. I don't know, I remember him.
Speaker 1: I don't remember his name. It was a British sounding name.
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was like only season two. I think
Speaker 1: it was New York and then London maybe, and then
Speaker 1: there was San Francisco and there I think San Francisco
Speaker 1: was with that's right. Nat Seattle was also big. But no,
Speaker 1: it's true. It's something that I you know, certainly was
Speaker 1: like on just kind of like you couldn't really escape
Speaker 1: it because it was it was huge. It really hits
Speaker 1: some kind of like note in the zeitgeist, and it
Speaker 1: really hasn't slowed from there. It's sort of just spread
Speaker 1: like a like a ease if you're into it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: like like one of the fun diseases, you know, that
Speaker 1: laughing epidemic. But on the first off, how did you
Speaker 1: how did you get into it? Like it's obviously something
Speaker 1: that you you can you can be into ironically, sure,
Speaker 1: and you know kind of it gives you plenty of
Speaker 1: fodder for like commentary that can be a lot of fun.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of people, truly, you know,
Speaker 1: do enjoy following the lives. Which camp do you find
Speaker 1: yourself in or is it somewhere in between the two.
Speaker 1: I would say I'm a little in between. Like I
Speaker 1: love reality television on ironically, I think it's just great work.
Speaker 1: I think it really it really you have okay, look
Speaker 1: scripted television, you have a writer's group that you're you know,
Speaker 1: a writer's team, You've got people working on it. Everyone's
Speaker 1: like you got some of the best minds putting something together.
Speaker 1: With reality TV, it's so unpredictable and it's so like
Speaker 1: also you have to go find real people, which is
Speaker 1: really difficult because not only do you have to find them,
Speaker 1: then you have to actually make sure that they're like
Speaker 1: good to be on TV. And there's like so many
Speaker 1: levels to finding these like incredible characters that we've become
Speaker 1: genuinely obsessed with um that like, I can't help but
Speaker 1: be like, this is master work of television. This is tough.
Speaker 1: I worked in reality t V very briefly. I couldn't
Speaker 1: cut it. I hate it actually working it, and I
Speaker 1: had to step away and just enjoy it from afar.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, So you know the behind the scenes like
Speaker 1: challenges and the plot twist people have to navigate. I was,
Speaker 1: I was unaware of that. We're gonna have to pick
Speaker 1: your brain about that. In a little bit. You make
Speaker 1: incredibly salient points, and I think a lot of people
Speaker 1: aren't aware of that amount of work. Right. They think
Speaker 1: there's just this cookie person right who is starting a
Speaker 1: strutal empire for some reason. And now you know, nine
Speaker 1: seasons later, we can say, wow, that that actually worked out.
Speaker 1: One thing I think maybe we can start with is
Speaker 1: the tricky, the tricky proposition of defining what reality or
Speaker 1: unscripted programming means. I think we can all agree that
Speaker 1: definition expanded over time. You have you know, you are
Speaker 1: again are resident expert here. It seems to me that
Speaker 1: some people will define reality TV in a very narrow
Speaker 1: scope and they'll say it's kind of soap opera you know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of slice of life increasingly with the celebrity
Speaker 1: and you're just learning about and following the adventures of
Speaker 1: these these normal, very interesting, compelling people. But other folks
Speaker 1: will broaden the definition increasingly and they'll say, well, what,
Speaker 1: why is an insert game show here? Why is that
Speaker 1: not reality television? A lot of the stuff is unscripted,
Speaker 1: Or why are those kind of documentary things that are
Speaker 1: not soap operas? Why do we not qualify those as
Speaker 1: reality television? And there's a lot of curation that goes
Speaker 1: into this, from the you know, the dailies to the
Speaker 1: final product, but the more linked into it. I was
Speaker 1: surprised that there are conflicting opinions about what the actual
Speaker 1: first reality television show is and and off Mike I
Speaker 1: sent I sent around to our crew. Here a show
Speaker 1: that is often called a it's like a prototype of
Speaker 1: what would become reality television. It's a game show called
Speaker 1: Queen for a Day. I had never heard of this one,
Speaker 1: and it really creaked me out. Yeah, it's pretty dystopian.
Speaker 1: What did you know about this one, Anna, Well, I
Speaker 1: had heard of it very briefly, as like, because I
Speaker 1: read a book called Star Nation by l a Times
Speaker 1: writer Amy Kaufman. I read any batch or any sort
Speaker 1: of reality TV punk. I won't read like anything legit.
Speaker 1: But if you're like a book about reality TV history,
Speaker 1: well well well you know it's already in my car.
Speaker 1: So I did. Actually, she briefly mentioned that show in
Speaker 1: her book, but like I did, never did any further
Speaker 1: research on. I was kind of like, Okay, it sounds
Speaker 1: like some Johnny Curtins, you know, Like I was just like,
Speaker 1: whatever sounds old. So I never really got into it
Speaker 1: or really researched it further. But that video you sent
Speaker 1: me were like the mini doc on it. I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: this makes all the sense in the world. We've always
Speaker 1: been obsessed with perfect people in media, and it goes
Speaker 1: so far back and there is like that level of darkness.
Speaker 1: It's such a precursor to like the Swan. Do you
Speaker 1: guys remember the Swan where they like took a woman
Speaker 1: they were like, ah, she's a freak and like made
Speaker 1: her beautiful. When you're like most of those women you
Speaker 1: were like, they're they're fine, you know, come on. So
Speaker 1: it's interesting to see that. Yeah, No, this one, I
Speaker 1: mean it is that it really embodies the kind of sexist,
Speaker 1: you know, misogynists like hierarchy of like the forties, fifties
Speaker 1: and sixties and and honestly beyond, but with this whole
Speaker 1: notion of like what if we took an under underappreciated
Speaker 1: poul woman and then gave her all the things that
Speaker 1: she needs to feel like a queen for a day
Speaker 1: and then put a crown on her and parade her
Speaker 1: around like something out of like a horror movie. I mean,
Speaker 1: it really does strike me as like this kind of ritualistic,
Speaker 1: you know display. I don't know something about it. I
Speaker 1: don't I can't quite put my finger on it. Ben.
Speaker 1: You keep using the term you know or terms yeah,
Speaker 1: but but there's something about it that is very unsettling,
Speaker 1: and I don't know what it is. But can you
Speaker 1: kind of describe to us, Ben, what you found in
Speaker 1: your research just to what the whole deal was around
Speaker 1: this game and and and how how you how you
Speaker 1: one exactly? I don't even know if it's there is
Speaker 1: a winner saying yeah. We all four watched this uh
Speaker 1: on this mini doc as you mentioned, and this show
Speaker 1: dates back to the Mutual Radio Network in April of nine.
Speaker 1: It was in New York City before it moved to
Speaker 1: l A uh, and then it ran until nineteen fifty seven,
Speaker 1: and then it switched to NBC. Uh, and it's growing
Speaker 1: the entire time. This is really important. And then it
Speaker 1: goes to ABC and runs still nineteen sixty four. Like
Speaker 1: you all said, it opens with a host he's very uh,
Speaker 1: let's just say on a it's very like old and
Speaker 1: he's you know, like the old school tvOS. It was
Speaker 1: like an older white gentleman judging your looks. Which of
Speaker 1: you is the saddest? Yeah? Uh So, the way the
Speaker 1: format works and it is kind of like game show variety,
Speaker 1: but in a very dark way. He int deuces a
Speaker 1: series of contestants. All contestants are are women, female identifying
Speaker 1: who have have a personal tragedy or struggle something that
Speaker 1: is beyond ordinary means to repair. So that even though
Speaker 1: it's called Queen for a Day, they don't come in
Speaker 1: happy just wanting to be happier. They come in saying
Speaker 1: somewhat beat me here, Max. They come in saying, someone
Speaker 1: can help me with my sick child, or someone help
Speaker 1: me save our house. Perfect perfect time in their max.
Speaker 1: Uh So they he interviews the contestants and then you know,
Speaker 1: they're separated the interviews by commercials. People love this. If
Speaker 1: you have the story saddest story judged by the audience applausometer,
Speaker 1: then you get some version of your wish for a day.
Speaker 1: And you can see stuff where someone's like, I want
Speaker 1: medical treatment for you know, my little Jane or my
Speaker 1: little Jimmy. And then they're like, we heard you, and
Speaker 1: here's a brand new dishwasher, the finest from may Tag
Speaker 1: Ends Heals or whatever. And this show was so successful
Speaker 1: that it eventually it was thirty minutes and they increased
Speaker 1: it to forty five minutes just to put in more commercials,
Speaker 1: which I think remains a complaint about a lot of
Speaker 1: reality TV today. But but I mean, the most maccab
Speaker 1: part of it to me is that in the end,
Speaker 1: the winner is selected and they're announced with all these
Speaker 1: prizes they're gonna get. But then they're like dressed in
Speaker 1: this like weird kingly queenly robe, you know, with a
Speaker 1: jeweled crown, all while you know, sitting in this like
Speaker 1: absurd velvet, you know, plush throne and given like a
Speaker 1: dozen roses. And I don't think this is necessarily the case,
Speaker 1: but I'm picturing them also openly weeping mascara, like running
Speaker 1: down like the cover of that whole album. You know.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just it's it's really it's kind of twisted.
Speaker 1: They didn't seem to think so, I guess, you know,
Speaker 1: but but I think it's He does point to an
Speaker 1: interesting factor for me, at least about reality television. I
Speaker 1: think one thing that's always led to it being a
Speaker 1: success is something very similar to why I think the
Speaker 1: True Crime is a success. It gives people an opportunity
Speaker 1: to be like, well, at least I'm not that poor,
Speaker 1: or at least, you know, my father wasn't a secret murderer.
Speaker 1: You know, there is some sort of like remove with
Speaker 1: which people can watch these things that allows them to
Speaker 1: kind of feel a little better about their lot in
Speaker 1: life or or worse, depending on what show you're into
Speaker 1: and what you're you know, what you're after. But I mean, Anna,
Speaker 1: do you have any thoughts as to why these shows
Speaker 1: are so popular on such a broad scale outside of
Speaker 1: just you know, the soap opera nous of it all.
Speaker 1: Oh no, you've asked a question I can talk about
Speaker 1: for eight hours. Um, okay, well here, let me break
Speaker 1: down the Queen for a day, so you're seeing something
Speaker 1: where you're seeing these like ordinary women who have problems.
Speaker 1: Guess what, America loves drama, you guys, we've always loved drama.
Speaker 1: This mini doc I was like, this foreshadows every trope
Speaker 1: in reality t V history to come. So you have
Speaker 1: the trauma guess what? In like the Bachelor's sort of
Speaker 1: like dating world, there's this concept of trauma bonding where
Speaker 1: you're like, if you're a bachelor, bachelor it They'll be like,
Speaker 1: I need you to open up to me so I
Speaker 1: can know that we can have something. But to them,
Speaker 1: opening up means like, tell me something traumatic from your
Speaker 1: life so we can trauma bond and then we'll feel
Speaker 1: like we have something, which in any normal circumstance you're
Speaker 1: dating the first date, you're not gonna be like. My
Speaker 1: parents got divorced and because of that, I had to
Speaker 1: become like the soul like sibling who raised my other siblings.
Speaker 1: It was really hard. My mom worked eighteen jobs today,
Speaker 1: I had to do everything. It really put a lot
Speaker 1: of pressure on me, and that is why I think
Speaker 1: I'm ready for marriage. You know, it's like all these
Speaker 1: really weird things where you're like, whoa Okay, you didn't
Speaker 1: have to tell I mean divorces. While yes, I believe
Speaker 1: it can be very hard on you, it's incredibly common
Speaker 1: at this point. You know, like a lot of people
Speaker 1: get divorced. But then so you're seeing that the sort
Speaker 1: of like trauma bond, and then you're kind of saying
Speaker 1: this other thing of like a lot of our obsessions
Speaker 1: is like projecting our own sort of feelings on people.
Speaker 1: So you're able to be like, wow, look at her,
Speaker 1: she got that, she won her dishwasher. She's the queen
Speaker 1: of the day. But then you're not the one who
Speaker 1: has to like deal with the aftermath of that. So hey,
Speaker 1: you get this diswasher or in like a lot of
Speaker 1: those like television or like house remodel shows, you know,
Speaker 1: like tie I forgot that guy's tie something where he'd
Speaker 1: be like, here's your new house, yes, Pennington, Pennington, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I think that sounds familiar. Now you have
Speaker 1: to pay the property taxes and and you know exactly
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, I wasn't super rich. I can't
Speaker 1: afford a massive house like you just I mean, like
Speaker 1: I love it, qute, I can't actually afford that a
Speaker 1: lot of those houses go into foreclosure, so like there's
Speaker 1: almost like this moment of like, yeah, that's great, but
Speaker 1: you're in the safety of your home, so you don't
Speaker 1: as soon as that show ends, it's not your problem.
Speaker 1: And I think like as Americans, you see that a
Speaker 1: lot where we're like, oh, yeah, good for you, but
Speaker 1: that's not my problem. We like to really pull back,
Speaker 1: and that's a symptom of just American culture in general,
Speaker 1: which is why so many people are suffering in this
Speaker 1: country is because we're like, well, I did my job,
Speaker 1: why do I have to give? You know, like we're
Speaker 1: all kind of like selfish. It's just is what it is.
Speaker 1: So there is like this level of like I I
Speaker 1: can project everything I'm feeling into this half hour or
Speaker 1: hour or two hours now because they never end uh
Speaker 1: television show, and then I can walk away and I
Speaker 1: can be like, wasn't that crazy? She's a nut, you know,
Speaker 1: and then it's not your problem anymore. But like you
Speaker 1: get to literally suck the joy out of this television
Speaker 1: show and then walk away, you know, wipe your hands
Speaker 1: of it. And that's I think like our kind of
Speaker 1: sick fascination. And I think Queen for the Day is
Speaker 1: a very interesting foreshadowing of every little thing that's gonna
Speaker 1: like come out and competition. We love to compete in
Speaker 1: this country. We love to compete. So the idea of
Speaker 1: like whose story is sadder is like such a like
Speaker 1: sickening obsession of ours, because we do also love to
Speaker 1: tear up. But they didn't even try to avail it.
Speaker 1: You gotta at least give them props for not even
Speaker 1: bothering trying to dress it up. And they literally are
Speaker 1: asking the audience whose story is sader? You know, because
Speaker 1: it was the first time out they hadn't learned the tricks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that that cut tharsis right, that vicarious experience, Yeah, I agree,
Speaker 1: it carries on you love. We love a beautiful story,
Speaker 1: even if it's like has a dark, dark origin where
Speaker 1: you're like she's being used to sell at you know,
Speaker 1: and anyway, that's kind of that's why we're obsessed. We
Speaker 1: love stuff like that. Also, to jump in real quick, yeah,
Speaker 1: Max give it to us. It is Tigert Burton, Ty Pennington.
Speaker 1: Oh right now, we just paused for this awesome sound
Speaker 1: cue auto where if we have a friend singing this
Speaker 1: theme song Max from the Facts, where do we even
Speaker 1: go from from Queen for a Day. I mean it
Speaker 1: gets kind of lighter after that. I mean we sort
Speaker 1: of start with like the most you know, bleak dregs
Speaker 1: of kind of human misery, and then we go pretty
Speaker 1: quickly to like prank shows, you know, and like candid Camera. Right, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know it's again. It all hinges on what we
Speaker 1: accept as the definition of reality TV, which I think
Speaker 1: I'm I'm kind of team on on this one, because
Speaker 1: maybe the best way to arrive at the definition is
Speaker 1: reverse engineering from what fascinates people about these these shows,
Speaker 1: these programs, these formats. You will find a lot of
Speaker 1: people who will argue, no, the real, the real first
Speaker 1: reality TV show was so and so, so let's just
Speaker 1: walk through some of the first ones. One of the
Speaker 1: first network game shows, Cash and Carry, that shows us
Speaker 1: unscripted television. But again it depends some people will say, well,
Speaker 1: the game shows not reality TV, but a competition that
Speaker 1: is kind of game show based. I think we can
Speaker 1: point to several that are reality television. And there's really
Speaker 1: interesting interview with a guy named Troy de Vold who
Speaker 1: was produced and written for numerous properties like this, and
Speaker 1: it is kind of in a story and a reality TV,
Speaker 1: and he says that the very first reality television show,
Speaker 1: per his opinion, is something called Amateur Hour by Ted Mack.
Speaker 1: It came out a few months before Candid Camera hit
Speaker 1: the screens, and right now Candy Camera, I think is
Speaker 1: more well known. I've never actually seen an episode. I
Speaker 1: think it's one of those things just the kind of
Speaker 1: floating around and popular culture. I know the phrase candy Camera.
Speaker 1: I haven't never seen Candid Camera legendary television. It was
Speaker 1: raised on Candid Camera. I loved it. It's so funny.
Speaker 1: It's so funny and also another kind of hilarious thing
Speaker 1: where we love to see people, uh, make a fool
Speaker 1: out of themselves, slash, get hurt, got caught out right,
Speaker 1: and then say, I'm sure they're fine at the end, right, like,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever they win. Something like that should be enough.
Speaker 1: That's a modern equivalent, I guess would be like failed videos,
Speaker 1: you know, are like kids getting accounts, Yeah, failing, And
Speaker 1: that's we don't even need these kind of shows anymore
Speaker 1: because I think they've kind of found their place in
Speaker 1: shorter form videos on the Internet. I know, well, that
Speaker 1: was also America's funniest home videos. Yes, homemade joy exactly
Speaker 1: and uh, and at least in the very beginning, the
Speaker 1: s weren't intentionally curated to like full the host or
Speaker 1: the teams. So if you want to win a bar argument,
Speaker 1: you can cite the Guinness Book of World Records, which
Speaker 1: says Candid Camera is the quote first TV show to
Speaker 1: regularly feature members of the public as stars. Game shows,
Speaker 1: getting a little wild, get a little experimental in that
Speaker 1: post World War two boom For the US contestants are
Speaker 1: like you mentioned on they're they're putting these increasingly strange situations, stunts,
Speaker 1: practical jokes that make you think is embarrassing or oh
Speaker 1: are they okay? And the emphasis here is on fun
Speaker 1: and awkwardness instead of like real difficult stuff like so
Speaker 1: these riddles three, it's more like can you move while
Speaker 1: we're throwing all this? Uh? I don't know fom at you?
Speaker 1: And this is again, this argument is why we'll hear
Speaker 1: some people who are a little more rigorous with their
Speaker 1: definitions say the real first reality TV show came in
Speaker 1: nine three. I don't agree with it. I think it's
Speaker 1: maybe the first of its kind of reality show. It's
Speaker 1: called An American Family, and weirdly enough, it was on PBS,
Speaker 1: which we don't always associate with reality shows today so
Speaker 1: much as documentaries. I guess, yeah, well, you know, PBS
Speaker 1: love those commercials totally. That's the sort of the blurry
Speaker 1: line that we're talking about, though, because then you have, like,
Speaker 1: you know, isn't a reality show just kind of a
Speaker 1: low rent documentary to some degree? And I mean, again,
Speaker 1: please don't take that the wrong I just mean, you know,
Speaker 1: a documentary tends to be about something a little more
Speaker 1: like high minded and like culturally important, whereas you know,
Speaker 1: reality shows are more about like awful people yelling at
Speaker 1: each other and getting into fights and acts of one upsmanship.
Speaker 1: But they use similar techniques and productions files. So, like
Speaker 1: what differentiates a documentary from a reality show? I think
Speaker 1: a documentary is more of a kind of like an
Speaker 1: investigation into something, but reality TV, I think is just
Speaker 1: more of a like a bird's eye view into like
Speaker 1: a group of people. I mean, I think like when
Speaker 1: you're watching reality TV, you're not really fully coming to
Speaker 1: a consensus about something versus like a documentary. You're still
Speaker 1: trying to build a narrative arc, you know, I mean
Speaker 1: you kind of are in reality TV. Depending on the show,
Speaker 1: but like it's not as it's not as like important
Speaker 1: where I'm dying to know what this like housewives, you know,
Speaker 1: from Real Housewives like arc Is, I'm kind of like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I see her trying to Like it's like they're literally
Speaker 1: creating their own storylines by starting a fight, versus like
Speaker 1: a director of a documentary who's like, here's the story
Speaker 1: I'm trying to tell, here's the here the people I'm
Speaker 1: trying to like investigate and or like examine under a
Speaker 1: lens of some kind. Well said, I think I would
Speaker 1: agree with that, because then by that reason, we're we're
Speaker 1: saying that, for example, a documentary about the plight of
Speaker 1: the Emperor penguin is meant to have the audience kind
Speaker 1: of cohere on the same the same conclusion, right, Like,
Speaker 1: oh snap, things are bad for penguins, But a reality
Speaker 1: show is totally fine with an audience being divisive, right,
Speaker 1: Hashtag team this person, hashtag team that person. Right. So,
Speaker 1: from what I understand, there are fan contingents of various
Speaker 1: modern reality shows who kind of beef with each other
Speaker 1: on the internet. Is that correctors that? Like, is that
Speaker 1: just one bad example I saw? Or is that a
Speaker 1: normalized thing. No, I mean, yeah, it's like sports teams.
Speaker 1: You have your side, you will fight the other, like
Speaker 1: if you love a certain housewife and someone else is
Speaker 1: coming at them, you're gonna get angry. I mean it
Speaker 1: really is like we have our teams, and people, especially
Speaker 1: now in this internet age, have no problem coming for you.
Speaker 1: So naturally it is an extension of you know, uh,
Speaker 1: like a sportsmanship sort of. I see, and and this
Speaker 1: only becomes more apparent as we move towards the modern age. Uh,
Speaker 1: the the dawn and the domination. Domination won't work of
Speaker 1: reality television. So the nineties we mentioned, that's like a
Speaker 1: golden age for this kind of TV for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. May MTV comes through with the real world
Speaker 1: in like this is like a Promethean act for so
Speaker 1: many other production companies because they see the fire reality
Speaker 1: based soap opera, you know, the drill. I can't do
Speaker 1: the intro from memory, but I'm sure so many of
Speaker 1: us listening today are already kind of reciting it like
Speaker 1: a litany. I know. It ends with when folks stop
Speaker 1: being polite and start getting real real rest. I think
Speaker 1: that was that was the most important part. But no,
Speaker 1: I mean I think that's you know, and then they
Speaker 1: obviously branched off into they took it on the road
Speaker 1: with road rules, and then there's like, you know, combinations
Speaker 1: and like sort of like anniversaries. Now there's the challenge
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. But what I think
Speaker 1: is interesting too is you have all of these offshoots
Speaker 1: of shows like this coming from other countries, like you
Speaker 1: have Big Brother, which essentially took the real world format
Speaker 1: and just gamified it, you know, which I think was
Speaker 1: kind of a stroke of genius because, as you said,
Speaker 1: not everyone loves drama and everyone also loves the competition,
Speaker 1: So let's combine the two, yeah, and then make it
Speaker 1: like seven because we cannot get enough content. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and everything can spin off, right, So producers that works
Speaker 1: lean and they grow their own programming. Reality TV becomes
Speaker 1: like one of the next the things that many networks
Speaker 1: feel are matters of survival for them. And there's one
Speaker 1: of the next steps that you would point you out
Speaker 1: in the research on that really stood out to me.
Speaker 1: At some point the folks who green light everything said,
Speaker 1: why are we casting regular folks? Why are we jumping
Speaker 1: through these hoops to find a regular person? A civilian
Speaker 1: doing something interesting was also reliably camera ready. Why are
Speaker 1: we doing all that and then growing a following for
Speaker 1: them when we could start with celebrities, people who are
Speaker 1: already somehow famous, We already have their own built in
Speaker 1: massive audience, And that feels like a c change to me.
Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, like in the early two thousand's, I think
Speaker 1: later Osborne started, I feel like early late nineties, early
Speaker 1: two thousands, can't remember the exact date, but they basically
Speaker 1: just found Ozzy Osbourne, who in all sort of like
Speaker 1: who we knew him as was a like metal rock
Speaker 1: star like eight Bats, you know, like all these sort
Speaker 1: of lore where you're like, he's wild, he's crazy, and
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden they're like, but he has
Speaker 1: a home life and he's a fun there and you're
Speaker 1: like whoa. And I think at that time that was
Speaker 1: really really wild to see that Ozzy Osbourne. He had
Speaker 1: a wife, he had two kids. They had very you know,
Speaker 1: they were you know, quirky and weird because you know,
Speaker 1: their family of like rock star kids, who knows, but
Speaker 1: they also had very normal interactions and had normal, very
Speaker 1: like family style situations they'd be in and I think
Speaker 1: that was kind of like the point where they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: like we love celebrities. Were obsessed with knowing what celebrities
Speaker 1: are up to. This is pre social media, so you
Speaker 1: really don't know. Like at that time, it's like you
Speaker 1: couldn't literally watch what someone was doing all day in
Speaker 1: their Instagram stories, right, So it's like this moment, this
Speaker 1: window into this celebrity lifestyle that we also used to,
Speaker 1: you know, glamour, big houses. It's just like wow, everything
Speaker 1: we strive for. And then they like put it in
Speaker 1: a TV show on MTV and we were part of
Speaker 1: the Osbourne We were in the family. We could see
Speaker 1: them every single you a week doing their thing, and
Speaker 1: all of sudden they were like your family, you know,
Speaker 1: in a weird way. Ozzy Osbourne is the father of
Speaker 1: America's family. Crazy, but it worked. It just hit in
Speaker 1: a way that we were you know, I'm sure they
Speaker 1: were probably like, let's try and see if anyone's even
Speaker 1: interested in seeing what Ozzy Osborne is doing. All of
Speaker 1: a sudden, Sharon Osborne is you know, like we're all
Speaker 1: like fans of like Kelly, you know, you're like, wow,
Speaker 1: like all these people are all of a sudden fully
Speaker 1: invested in the Osbourne's, even though maybe they never even
Speaker 1: listened to Ozzy Osborne to begin with, and and and
Speaker 1: by many accounts, a lot of this strokeo genius really
Speaker 1: was coming from Sharon, uh for better for worse, Largely,
Speaker 1: I think for worse. It sure seemed like they were
Speaker 1: trotting out Azzi during a time in his life where
Speaker 1: he maybe wasn't the best idea for him to be
Speaker 1: on TV all the time, you know, but it was
Speaker 1: sort of like, that's fine, he'll be fine. I think
Speaker 1: he was going through some you know, still going through
Speaker 1: some some addiction problems and some like kind of you know,
Speaker 1: doctor shopping kind of scenarios, and it was certainly clear
Speaker 1: that he wasn't fully there, but yet there he was
Speaker 1: sort of America's you know, cookie Granddad. But this really
Speaker 1: opened the gate for like all kinds of these other
Speaker 1: types of shows like that. But it didn't really happen
Speaker 1: right away, which I thought was interesting. It wasn't until
Speaker 1: I guess VH one started doing you know, the Surreal
Speaker 1: Life and those these kind of like again Big Brother
Speaker 1: situations but with kind of you know, also ran celebrities
Speaker 1: do you see a correlation there? Am I wrong? Was
Speaker 1: it right on the heels of it or wasn't there
Speaker 1: kind of a little gap? Well? Uh, I know, I
Speaker 1: think Osbourne's kind of started to pave the way, and
Speaker 1: and I think what you were saying about Ozzy really
Speaker 1: still struggling in his life. Like we love dysfunction and
Speaker 1: we love to see it because again, it's not our problem.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like we're watching it, like we are
Speaker 1: watching from a bird's eye view where we get to
Speaker 1: white like, well, like, damn that sucks for Ozzie. Hope
Speaker 1: he's okay, al right, next show. You know you you
Speaker 1: you're able to remove yourself in that way, but you're
Speaker 1: still at the same time able to be like a
Speaker 1: voyeur into their lives and the same situation with a
Speaker 1: simple life. Like Nicole Richie struggled with addiction for years
Speaker 1: and we were still watching her go to like farms
Speaker 1: and be like pooh, you know, like cal pooh, and
Speaker 1: we'd be like, that's hilarious, that's hilarious. They hate this.
Speaker 1: They're like rich girls, they've never stepped in couch before.
Speaker 1: But like we loved it. Isn't that another kind of
Speaker 1: like almost the reverse shod in Freuda, where it's like
Speaker 1: because I still think everything we're saying sort of points
Speaker 1: to the idea of like, Okay, Ozzie's all messed up,
Speaker 1: but I'm getting a throw out of it, and I
Speaker 1: don't have to think about it when I turn the channel,
Speaker 1: so it's sort of like, at least it's not me,
Speaker 1: not in my backyard, but I'm definitely gonna like get
Speaker 1: some sort of weird sick joy out of watching someone
Speaker 1: else struggle with the surreal or the simple life. Isn't
Speaker 1: it is an example of seeing people that are way
Speaker 1: way more wealthy than you'll ever be able to be,
Speaker 1: but also kind of putting themselves in foolish situations and
Speaker 1: sort of making fun of themselves and allowing you to
Speaker 1: kind of laugh at them, even those sort of the
Speaker 1: jokes on you because you're, you know, you're paying for
Speaker 1: their lifestyle by participating in the whole thing. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean we're all kind of been like a vicious
Speaker 1: cycle for sure, And I think now more than anything,
Speaker 1: we kind of see like the genius of Paris Hilton
Speaker 1: and Nicole Ritchie to be like, oh we knew damn
Speaker 1: well that we were playing ourselves dumb because we knew
Speaker 1: it would be good television, and so like there is
Speaker 1: kinda that like other side of like, oh I thought
Speaker 1: they were fools. Turns out they were actually self aware
Speaker 1: enough to know like if we play it dumb enough,
Speaker 1: people will keep coming back to like make fun of us,
Speaker 1: and they were able to take it. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: all very uh there. I mean, let's be real, there's
Speaker 1: a dark side to all of this. We're all obsessed
Speaker 1: with darkness in a way. That's why we love the
Speaker 1: twenty four hour news cycle. Really, Like we're all so
Speaker 1: in it that we're like, we're also addicted to being
Speaker 1: upset over darkness. But like there's it's all just a
Speaker 1: vicious cycle. Who knows. If there's ever gonna be a
Speaker 1: way out, maybe a giant wave from climate change, we'll
Speaker 1: take us out. You know, maybe maybe there will be
Speaker 1: a reality show called I Still Have a Lawn and
Speaker 1: it's about people who still have lawns. But you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny to say that because we are describing uh,
Speaker 1: some key points of the American consciousness. You could call it,
Speaker 1: I would call the Western consciousness. Now with the expansion
Speaker 1: of this stuff years back, a Little War Story on
Speaker 1: I pitched pitched our pal Conald Burne an idea for
Speaker 1: a good news show, and I said, let me do
Speaker 1: a show where we're not always where we're kind of
Speaker 1: fighting back when it's the news cycle of horrible things.
Speaker 1: And uh, we had a call about it. We had
Speaker 1: a pitch and then he he said it will never work.
Speaker 1: People like darkness, and I was. I was surprised by
Speaker 1: how blunt he was. But I still think that show
Speaker 1: would have worked. Maybe a wave across someone. Someone did that.
Speaker 1: Uh it was that dude from the office, So I
Speaker 1: want to say Krasinski. He did like a good news
Speaker 1: YouTube thing. It went, it went well for so much money,
Speaker 1: that's right. And now, honestly, I haven't heard a thing
Speaker 1: about this show. But I haven't heard a thing about
Speaker 1: it since it was during covid or. I think people
Speaker 1: are really in need of that. And then once everyone
Speaker 1: thing was kind of back to normal, I think it's like, no,
Speaker 1: I need to feel good to read, let's go back
Speaker 1: to the misery. I was. I was ahead of my time.
Speaker 1: But uh, it turns out whomever came up with the
Speaker 1: idea for The Bachelor, which you you know as ton
Speaker 1: about Anna, they were arguably also ahead of their time.
Speaker 1: Hold the phone, hold the remote control. We mentioned the
Speaker 1: Bachelor at knowl as as you and I know, that
Speaker 1: is one of as one of Anna's areas of expertise.
Speaker 1: I think I think, my friend, this just turned into
Speaker 1: a two part or what what say you, sir Brown? Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: It's something that we we planned the whole time though, right, No, no,
Speaker 1: we didn't. Bachelor content has a way of ballooning. It's
Speaker 1: just there's it's a lot that goes into it. And
Speaker 1: not to mention, I mean it may sound like we're
Speaker 1: just kind of wrap sing, you know, philosophical about reality
Speaker 1: shows in general. There really is an interesting historical trajectory
Speaker 1: to all this stuff, and there are connections and threads
Speaker 1: throughout that I think we we try our best to
Speaker 1: pull apart to some degree. M hm. And I love
Speaker 1: the idea about the Bachelor ballooning because it's affected ridiculous history.
Speaker 1: We're spinning this off into a second episode. Uh so,
Speaker 1: so we're gonna say, a whole new series, a whole
Speaker 1: new series. It's whoops all part Two's that's what we're
Speaker 1: calling it. Uh So, here's here's our plan. Folks feel
Speaker 1: ridiculous historians. We know this is a Thursday. We are
Speaker 1: going to get cranking away on the second episode, which
Speaker 1: will be coming to you on the very next Tuesday.
Speaker 1: We can't wait to hear your thoughts about reality TV.
Speaker 1: As you can tell, there's a lot of stuff in
Speaker 1: here that surprised Noel and Max and myself about the history.
Speaker 1: And thank goodness, we've got the one and only on
Speaker 1: a here to guide us through. We're spoiler. I think
Speaker 1: we're gonna learn a lot about The Bachelor. I don't know,
Speaker 1: do you know much about it? I mean, I know
Speaker 1: that it looms large and popular culture, that's for sure,
Speaker 1: but no, honestly, I barely know how it works. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's sort of just another in a long line of
Speaker 1: these type of dating shows and escalations. You know, I'm
Speaker 1: more of a singled out kind of guy, or even
Speaker 1: like the dating game from back in the day. It's
Speaker 1: just a more elaborate version of those. Unless I'm completely
Speaker 1: out of my tree. Do you guys know the recurring
Speaker 1: SNL segment? I don't think they do anymore, but the
Speaker 1: knock off of it, it's like what like one that
Speaker 1: would be like car Hank, it's whoever is the host
Speaker 1: that week, they'll be in there and like they just
Speaker 1: like rotates like quick, like probably about ten second conversations
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh, I like this, tell me about yourself,
Speaker 1: and just keep rotating it through and through and through,
Speaker 1: and it's like very much obviously a parody of The Bachelor.
Speaker 1: Can I steal him for a second? Okay, m hmmm,
Speaker 1: I like this. Yeah, that's awesome. It's based on an
Speaker 1: improv game that's quite a lot of fun as well.
Speaker 1: We are going to learn about all of this within
Speaker 1: eye toward history and what reality television says about society
Speaker 1: in general in Part two, So do tune in as
Speaker 1: always thanks to our super producer, Mr Max Williams. Uh
Speaker 1: the Bachelor of the like in the game show would
Speaker 1: you Be the Bachelor? What kind of game show would
Speaker 1: we be on? We could do a prank show maybe
Speaker 1: or maybe more you ever you ever watched Deal or
Speaker 1: No Deal? I was getting all changed once and I
Speaker 1: learned how Deal or No Deal works after being completely
Speaker 1: mystified by it for years. That's an A plus game show,
Speaker 1: by the way, that is an excellent game show in
Speaker 1: my pack. I agree, I agree. We We actually didn't
Speaker 1: want to leave even after my car was ready, right
Speaker 1: though you were telling me that uh an absolute strange
Speaker 1: or started breaking down dealers exactly right. Yes, yes, is
Speaker 1: a momentous moment in my life. It was me and
Speaker 1: my kid and the stranger saw that we were perplexed.
Speaker 1: It was likely. Let me help you guys out, and
Speaker 1: it actually can teach you some good skills. You know,
Speaker 1: how to negotiate your own self. That's one thing I
Speaker 1: love about Atlanta. It's not a perfect city, but man,
Speaker 1: it's a friendly one. So thanks also to the good
Speaker 1: people of Atlanta. Thanks to you for tuning in. No,
Speaker 1: thanks to you man uh And of course thanks to
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland ak the quister who will one be a
Speaker 1: period on our reality show, Long May He Rain? Thanks
Speaker 1: to Christopher us Yoda is here in spirit. Maxwell Van
Speaker 1: Williams Uh first of his name, I believe I don't
Speaker 1: know wh why am I getting all game of ze
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, has nothing to do with reality television,
Speaker 1: but it is what it is. Alex Williams, who composed
Speaker 1: our theme and doesn't have a medieval sounding name treatment
Speaker 1: from me, of course, Eve's Jeff Coat and Where would
Speaker 1: we be without our research associates, Jeff Bartlett and Zach
Speaker 1: Williams oh And once again, thanks to Anna and to Ben.
Speaker 1: Thanks to you, I look forward to rejoining you in
Speaker 1: real time very soon. I like this. We'll see you
Speaker 1: next up Fox. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.