Speaker 1: M hm, Hot Happy Mess. Celebrate your magic in the
Speaker 1: middle of life's messes Hot Happy. I'm Zurie Hall and
Speaker 1: this is Hot Happy Mess. What's up. Welcome to another
Speaker 1: episode of Hot Happy Mess. I am your host, Zuri Hall,
Speaker 1: and I hope you are well. Sorry, I completely just
Speaker 1: blanked out for a second. It's been a long day.
Speaker 1: Um a quick life update. What is going on? My
Speaker 1: dad was in town. I'm here in Los Angeles. My
Speaker 1: dad came out and visited me for gosh like teen
Speaker 1: plus days, which was awesome. He's retired now so he
Speaker 1: can just hop on the plane and go and he's
Speaker 1: pretty chill, pretty low maintenance do so that's nice. We
Speaker 1: just kind of kick back and hang out. Lola has
Speaker 1: him wrapped around her little gin referred Paul. But it's
Speaker 1: been really sweet. Just covered the SPS. Attended to that event,
Speaker 1: which was really fun, really cool to shake it up.
Speaker 1: It's not your usual Hollywood crowd, right. You get a
Speaker 1: little bit of the celebs, the Hollywood celebs, and then
Speaker 1: the sports stars and the world's all collide at once.
Speaker 1: So that was a really fun night. I was in
Speaker 1: High Hills until like two in the morning, maybe three,
Speaker 1: and I started at gosh, like one o'clock in the afternoon.
Speaker 1: So my back hates me. My feet do too, but
Speaker 1: that's a conversation for another day. I'm getting older. Anyways,
Speaker 1: things are well. I hope things are well your way.
Speaker 1: And if you didn't know, this month, this BIPOC Mental
Speaker 1: Health Awareness Month, and today's episode means so much to
Speaker 1: me because we are having a really important conversation on
Speaker 1: mental health within the Black community, specifically as it relates
Speaker 1: to Black women. This topic has been on my mind
Speaker 1: for a while quite a aile, but especially in the
Speaker 1: last year or two, you know, as I've seen how
Speaker 1: anxiety and depression has impacted those in my industry and
Speaker 1: my community, my family, my friend group, myself. Um, It's
Speaker 1: why i take mental health and the activism around mental
Speaker 1: health and mental wellness very seriously. And I've tried to
Speaker 1: be as transparent as I can and as I'm ready
Speaker 1: to in any given moment about my own mental health journey,
Speaker 1: because I've had ebbs and flows, you know, And really
Speaker 1: it was only in the last couple of years I
Speaker 1: think the pandemic really kicked off of some feelings or
Speaker 1: new experiences for a lot of us that maybe we
Speaker 1: hadn't gone through before. But you know, the last couple
Speaker 1: of years especially, I've had to deal with the ebb
Speaker 1: and flow of feelings of mental wellness and some days
Speaker 1: a year a little bit down, and and sometimes there's
Speaker 1: a reason, and then sometimes there's not. And I think
Speaker 1: it's really important that we acknowledge and remove the stigma
Speaker 1: around the moments when there's not when it feels like
Speaker 1: there's not a reason. Because depression and anxiety and a
Speaker 1: lot of these mental health concerns or challenges that we
Speaker 1: all deal with to varying degrees, they don't discriminate, you know,
Speaker 1: And I've learned that especially in recent years. And but
Speaker 1: it's something that I've seen in my personal life and
Speaker 1: from people who I care about in their own personal struggles.
Speaker 1: It's something that I've been heartbroken to have to report on. Professionally,
Speaker 1: we're seeing now more than ever, sports stars, celebrities, people
Speaker 1: come out and just talk about their mental health and
Speaker 1: moments when they feel that it's been lacking or less
Speaker 1: than ideal or optimal. And there's no shame. There's no
Speaker 1: shame in those struggles, and there's no shame in asking
Speaker 1: for help. And so I just really want to take
Speaker 1: a true moment from me to you and say that
Speaker 1: when I say I hope you are well, I genuinely
Speaker 1: truly hope you are well. And if you are not,
Speaker 1: please no, please understand, Please believe me when I say
Speaker 1: it can get better. It does get better. It sometimes
Speaker 1: takes a lot of work and a support network that
Speaker 1: sometimes you may not feel like you have, and some
Speaker 1: time and heavy lifting. Those may all be things that
Speaker 1: you have to go through to get to the other side.
Speaker 1: But I promise you it's worth it. And sometimes the helpers,
Speaker 1: the people who will see you when you feel unseen,
Speaker 1: hear you when you feel unheard, support you when you
Speaker 1: feel unsupported, are the people you least expect. I love
Speaker 1: that saying about looking for the helpers. They're everywhere. I'm
Speaker 1: paraphrasing because I always butcher quotes, but it's so true.
Speaker 1: Sometimes people who have pulls me out of my darkest moment,
Speaker 1: or who have wiped a tear from high eye because
Speaker 1: I'm crying in public because it's one of those days,
Speaker 1: or you know, someone who's left me a note of
Speaker 1: encouragement or a smiley face on a napkin because they
Speaker 1: saw me crying at a dinner table out in public,
Speaker 1: because it was one of those days. I have moments.
Speaker 1: You all, we all have moments. Sometimes it's those people.
Speaker 1: Sometimes it's the kindness of strangers. But what I really
Speaker 1: hope and pray is that if you are struggling, that
Speaker 1: you will reach out to someone, that you will talk
Speaker 1: to someone, even if it's as simple as I need help.
Speaker 1: I'm scared. I don't know what to do, I don't
Speaker 1: know what to say. Will you sit with me, you
Speaker 1: pray with me, will you talk with me? Will you
Speaker 1: help me find the support network, the professional help that
Speaker 1: I need. A lot of times, you know, we can't
Speaker 1: heal what we don't reveal, and people don't know that
Speaker 1: we're suffering in silence. Sometimes it's the person right next
Speaker 1: to you. It has certainly been me often, and people
Speaker 1: closest to me would never suspect. I'm sure you can relate.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've had similar experiences. So I just hope
Speaker 1: that you find it in you to have the courage
Speaker 1: to show up for yourself and just ask for that help.
Speaker 1: Hopefully today's conversation will give you a little bit of support,
Speaker 1: a little bit of insight, some resources and direction if
Speaker 1: you're looking for help, if you're looking to understand some
Speaker 1: of your feelings. Therapy is obviously something that I've always
Speaker 1: been a very big advocate for, and I highly encourage
Speaker 1: that to anyone who's even considering it or on the fence.
Speaker 1: And today I'm particularly grateful for Dr Rita joining me
Speaker 1: for a really beautiful, um, really deep, really real conversation
Speaker 1: on Hot Happy Mess. We are exploring high functioning depression,
Speaker 1: how anxiety can take hold of our daily lives, suicide ideation,
Speaker 1: the myth of the happy strong friend, and it's connection
Speaker 1: with silent suffering, and so so so much more. If
Speaker 1: there is not an episode you listen to except for
Speaker 1: one this year, I'm not gonna be that dramatic this month, alright.
Speaker 1: I don't want you to listening to just one episode
Speaker 1: over the year, But this month, I really hope you
Speaker 1: listen to this one. I do want to share a
Speaker 1: content warning, as later in our conversation we will be
Speaker 1: discussing suicide. If you find the topic triggering, you can
Speaker 1: check the episode description and the show notes for the
Speaker 1: specific time aime codes when we'll have that conversation, so
Speaker 1: that you can bypass that parts get by that. Okay, alright, y'all,
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and get this conversation started. It is
Speaker 1: a beautiful one. You do not want to miss it.
Speaker 1: Share it to a friend right now, talk about it
Speaker 1: with them after you listen. Here's Dr Rita. Dr Rita
Speaker 1: Walker is an award winning professor of psychology, Fellow in
Speaker 1: the American Psychological Association, and author of The Unapologetic Guide
Speaker 1: to Black Mental Health. She is also an expert scholar
Speaker 1: who has published more than sixties scientific papers on African
Speaker 1: American and mental health, suicide risk, and emotional resilience. You
Speaker 1: may have seen her in Vogue, e any, Good Morning America, Today,
Speaker 1: the breakfast club, all the places that anybody who's doing
Speaker 1: anything wants to be and I'm so grateful to have
Speaker 1: her with us today sharing her expertise. Dr Rita, welcome,
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Sree. It really is a pleasure
Speaker 1: to be here with you. I'm so glad to have
Speaker 1: you before we dive in. You know, our our show
Speaker 1: is all about best life minus the burnout. Big part
Speaker 1: of avoiding burnout is taking the breaks and the rest
Speaker 1: we need. I hear you have a sabbatical that you
Speaker 1: took a few months ago I did so. University professors,
Speaker 1: after having been in whatever appointment for at least seven years,
Speaker 1: are eligible to take time off, so it can be
Speaker 1: a semester or actually a year. I opted to take
Speaker 1: one semester to take a step back. I actually did
Speaker 1: work on some projects, so I worked. I went hard,
Speaker 1: some things that I took off the plate. Wait, dr Rita,
Speaker 1: you're supposed to sabbatical on thebbatical. No, that was so
Speaker 1: not the intention. But you understand, you know, there are
Speaker 1: times when you're supposed to like dial back and it
Speaker 1: just doesn't work out that way. So I still now
Speaker 1: needed sabbatical from a sabbatical. Okay, you sound like me.
Speaker 1: I've never felt more seen. Well, I hope you get
Speaker 1: the sabbatical from your sabbatical. Um, but I'm sure what's
Speaker 1: going to come out of that work will be just
Speaker 1: as impressive as everything else you've accomplished so far. UM.
Speaker 1: This episode, we are really just covering, um, you know,
Speaker 1: this spectrum from mental health to to hopefully you providing
Speaker 1: some insights on this rising trend of black women committing suicide,
Speaker 1: battling depression. UM, you know, just breaking down and unmasking
Speaker 1: what exactly that is that depression, um, the myth of
Speaker 1: the happy, the strong friend um, and that connection to
Speaker 1: silent suffering, which is what a lot of us are
Speaker 1: realizing the people we love are doing suffering and silence.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we we hear these stories and we it resonates,
Speaker 1: you know, because sometimes we are the one who is
Speaker 1: suffering in silence. July is BIPOC Mental Health Awareness Month. Um.
Speaker 1: When this this episode is scheduled air, So it couldn't
Speaker 1: have come um at a more perfect time. First of all,
Speaker 1: how are you doing? How are things in your world
Speaker 1: right now? Um? And then yeah, just tell me a
Speaker 1: little bit about your background, how you came into this world. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, I came into this work as someone who
Speaker 1: was really curious about our community, so curious about the
Speaker 1: black the African American community, and specifically how we didn't
Speaker 1: seem to show up in my undergraduate psychology textbooks. You know.
Speaker 1: I just kind of felt like the way we went
Speaker 1: about life wasn't really represented. And I thought, Okay, well,
Speaker 1: if I just go go to graduate school, I'll just
Speaker 1: get one of those PhDs and that's where the knowledge resides, right,
Speaker 1: That's what I thought. Uh. And so that you know,
Speaker 1: really started my journey to trying to create knowledge that
Speaker 1: didn't exist in a way that that we needed it.
Speaker 1: If that makes sense, it absolutely is so important. I'm
Speaker 1: curious to know around what age was it that you
Speaker 1: decided this was a world that you really wanted to
Speaker 1: commit yourself too. Was this a calling you felt early on?
Speaker 1: Was was there, you know, a situational moment that made
Speaker 1: you realize, Okay, I think I know where my life
Speaker 1: is headed. It's an interesting question because, like a lot
Speaker 1: of folks, my mother had told me early in life
Speaker 1: what I was going to do. And what she said
Speaker 1: was that I could be a lawyer or I could
Speaker 1: be a doctor. And I think so many of us
Speaker 1: have those conversations, right, like these are respectable careers that
Speaker 1: you can have that people know what they are great,
Speaker 1: and I adopted that. I actually thought that I was
Speaker 1: going to be a lawyer for a really long time
Speaker 1: because I like to talk so great, I'll be a lawyer.
Speaker 1: Fast forward to and this was probably you know, elementary school,
Speaker 1: middle school. Fast forward to undergraduate um and having the
Speaker 1: opportunity to actually shadow an attorney, and I was about,
Speaker 1: you know, probably nineteen years old at the time, and
Speaker 1: I thought m M. This this just doesn't feel right,
Speaker 1: Like just the whole feel of it just didn't seem
Speaker 1: like something that I aspired to do. So I went
Speaker 1: back to the drawing board, thought about what are the
Speaker 1: classes that I intrinsically enjoyed. There were psychology courses back then.
Speaker 1: Folks were like, you can't do anything with a bachelor's
Speaker 1: degree in psychology. So I said, okay, well, I'm interested
Speaker 1: in black people, so I guess I'll just go get
Speaker 1: the PhD. So then my mom could have the doctor
Speaker 1: had given me the options in. It all worked out,
Speaker 1: and here you are. Now you've got your book, The
Speaker 1: Unapologetic Guide to Black Mental Health. I'm curious to know one,
Speaker 1: why is it unapologetic? What is so unapologetic about this
Speaker 1: book for those who may be picking it up? And
Speaker 1: also what does it mean to be culturally humble? Yeah? So,
Speaker 1: so two things about the book being unapologetic and the
Speaker 1: community probably resonates with the idea that oftentimes we can't
Speaker 1: seem to have anything, um, and we especially can't seem
Speaker 1: to have have nice things that our stories, our narratives,
Speaker 1: anything that was intended for the black community, you know,
Speaker 1: just gets hijacked. Um. They become all lives matter, you
Speaker 1: know kind of thing. And so I needed us to
Speaker 1: have a text a reference for us because of the
Speaker 1: crisis was happening in our community, and I needed to
Speaker 1: be able to communicate in a way that that we
Speaker 1: understood that there was something that needed to happen. That's
Speaker 1: one part. The other part is that we really do
Speaker 1: have some um traditions in our community, things that we
Speaker 1: say to each other like, uh, just go pray about it. Uh,
Speaker 1: black people don't go to therapy. Know that we got
Speaker 1: to cut out, Like we really have to remove those
Speaker 1: conversations so that we can get meaningful help to people
Speaker 1: who need it. So it's unapologetic because it really is
Speaker 1: for us without apology, and too because we have to
Speaker 1: be honest about some of the things that we do
Speaker 1: that perpetuate some of the problems. Beautifully said um and
Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. When you say culturally humble, what
Speaker 1: is that in reference to what exactly does that mean? Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: that's for folks who are aspiring to provide services in
Speaker 1: our communities who aren't necessarily a part of those communities.
Speaker 1: And so we have individuals who may be you know,
Speaker 1: professionally trained who are in fact license, but they're not
Speaker 1: African American, you know, don't resonate with the African American
Speaker 1: experience in any way. They may have a few Black friends,
Speaker 1: but they come into these conversations thinking, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: well all people are just the same, or my client
Speaker 1: didn't come in because of racism, and they need to
Speaker 1: be able to meet the client where they are, to
Speaker 1: be able to talk about, you know, experiences of racism
Speaker 1: or microaggression, whatever they may be, and take a humble
Speaker 1: approach to learning more and learning not just from the client,
Speaker 1: you know, who's someone who is you know, presumably in pain,
Speaker 1: but taking it upon themselves to say okay, rather than
Speaker 1: you know, tapping into any biases, you know, to really
Speaker 1: truly learn and and follow the um you know, follow
Speaker 1: the journey of learning more about the community to help
Speaker 1: to make sense of every client and every patient psychological distress. Okay,
Speaker 1: So what I think is interesting to note here, you know,
Speaker 1: the Unapologetic Guide is a guid for everybody to black
Speaker 1: mental health. Is this something that a health provider could
Speaker 1: also pick up, whether or not they feel that they're
Speaker 1: a part of the community, if they want to better
Speaker 1: understand our community. Oh yeah, absolutely. I think that uh
Speaker 1: Dr Naim Akbar, who wrote the forward, probably said it
Speaker 1: best that even though it wasn't necessarily written for people
Speaker 1: who don't identify as African American or who don't identify
Speaker 1: as black, that by reading the book, they will in
Speaker 1: fact learn a lot. So the book is targeted, you know,
Speaker 1: for the black community, because I know that we have
Speaker 1: the resources, you know, once we have more information and insight,
Speaker 1: that we can do better and other folks can kind
Speaker 1: of you know, peek in a sea like Okay, those
Speaker 1: are some real issues, you know, because I cite research,
Speaker 1: I talk about my research, and I talk about the
Speaker 1: impact of systemic oppression on black people that I think
Speaker 1: we internalize in a lot of ways. It's just kind
Speaker 1: of like, well, that's just kind of life. It just
Speaker 1: is what it is. And for a lot of folks
Speaker 1: that really is like wow, Like you you deal with that,
Speaker 1: you know, like trying to figure out neighborhoods to live
Speaker 1: in and where to send children to school in a
Speaker 1: way that you have to avoid oppression, Like like that's
Speaker 1: something that you know, I talk about because it's it's
Speaker 1: normative for us, uh and we wonder why we're so
Speaker 1: exhausted all the time. But I'll pause that, Oh, we
Speaker 1: just I wanted to go on a whole different path
Speaker 1: with that, and we will get to um to that
Speaker 1: idea of exhaustion and what it means to just feel
Speaker 1: like the walls are closing in on you and how
Speaker 1: that may manifest in one's life and one's health. Um
Speaker 1: to sort of open up that conversation around this mental
Speaker 1: health crisis that we seem to be in. UM. One
Speaker 1: one area in which I think it really exacerbates the
Speaker 1: problem is us playing against these stereotypes, right, these these
Speaker 1: labels that have been put on us, me going through
Speaker 1: the world trying have to come across as an angry
Speaker 1: black woman being quote unquote ghetto whatever that means, acting
Speaker 1: white quote unquote whatever that means, lessening our true selves
Speaker 1: so that we're more palatable to communities, people, groups that
Speaker 1: may not understand us. Code switching is something that I've
Speaker 1: spoken a lot about that I feel very passionately about
Speaker 1: because I was really a prisoner of it for most
Speaker 1: of my childhood and my high school life, because I
Speaker 1: was living in between two worlds. You know. I went
Speaker 1: to a very small, very wealthy, very white, um, private
Speaker 1: independent school, amazing education. I love it. I wouldn't take
Speaker 1: it back. But I was none of those things that
Speaker 1: I just listed off. I was from a working you know,
Speaker 1: our middle class family in the inner city. All my
Speaker 1: friends were black, my family was black, and I bust
Speaker 1: out and I felt very torn for a very long
Speaker 1: time and I didn't feel like I fit in in
Speaker 1: anyone's space. UM, and that sticks with you into adulthood.
Speaker 1: You start to carry certain insecurities around that. UM. And
Speaker 1: that's just one one area. But again, when when we
Speaker 1: think about all of these different pressures that we have
Speaker 1: when we step outside of our home, UM, what is
Speaker 1: your perspective on that, on how the pressure to coach, switch,
Speaker 1: the pressure to not come off, how society says we
Speaker 1: come off, might affect our mental health. Well, it really
Speaker 1: is interesting because you know, we we we have learned
Speaker 1: to adapt, right, So, so you know, surviving is about
Speaker 1: adapt thing to the circumstances. And so that's what you
Speaker 1: were able to do. And what we don't realize is
Speaker 1: that the adaptation not just for you in your lifetime,
Speaker 1: but but over generations. You know, so our grandparents adapted
Speaker 1: and so they taught our parents to adapt, and then
Speaker 1: we adapted, and so we just kind of pass on
Speaker 1: to some degree the exhaustion, you know, you you come
Speaker 1: out the gate just just tied, you know, like I
Speaker 1: have nothing left. And because that gets to be again
Speaker 1: so normalized that we think, if I'm not having a
Speaker 1: nervous breakdown, then I'm okay. And that's the part that
Speaker 1: I think that troubles me, because we're doing the equivalent
Speaker 1: of you know, dragging a broken ankle or you know,
Speaker 1: broken foot along. It's like, okay, as long as I
Speaker 1: can get to the next step, then I'm okay, not
Speaker 1: realizing that we're doing further damage or at least further
Speaker 1: delaying our recovery unless we get to a place where
Speaker 1: we can say this thing that I'm doing right now
Speaker 1: it has to stop. And and to be sure, some
Speaker 1: of us have achieved tremendous success despite running on that
Speaker 1: broken angle, and so because of the success or or
Speaker 1: the perception of success, we just keep it moving. And
Speaker 1: then when it's time to say, okay, I can't do
Speaker 1: this anymore, and the body is saying I can't do
Speaker 1: this anymore, and sometimes it's something as bad as a
Speaker 1: heart attack. We know that black women have disproportionately high
Speaker 1: rates of heart attack and stroke, and it takes something
Speaker 1: that bad to shut down the physical body. And you know,
Speaker 1: the physician is saying something like, are you experiencing a
Speaker 1: lot of stress? Like, well, when am I not? I
Speaker 1: thought it was part of who I am to do? Stress?
Speaker 1: Are you talking about this? Up? Woke up? Didn't not know?
Speaker 1: Of course I have stress, and as long as I
Speaker 1: can keep moving into okay, But we need to be
Speaker 1: able to say. And one reason why, you know, I
Speaker 1: try to introduce this idea of psychological fortitude because when
Speaker 1: we talk about mental health, well we say, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not crazy. You know, I'm not I'm not weak. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not any of the stereotept So we tell ourselves
Speaker 1: about mental health, you know, you know, all the ones
Speaker 1: you know. Because of that, then we avoid having actually
Speaker 1: health and well being and psychological fortitude to be able
Speaker 1: to tap into our creativity, um to to the inspiration
Speaker 1: to do the things that we were all put here
Speaker 1: to to do. Dr Reading, you are preaching, preaching, preaching, preaching.
Speaker 1: I love what you mentioned about the body and how
Speaker 1: these things start to manifest in our physical health. How
Speaker 1: you know if we were running on a broken foot,
Speaker 1: we would probably want to, you know, stop, wrap it up,
Speaker 1: maybe go to the e R. But when it's when
Speaker 1: it's our mental wellness or mental we can sense that
Speaker 1: we're not okay. But to your to quote you directly,
Speaker 1: if we're not having a nervous breakdown, it's fine. We
Speaker 1: can keep going. You know. I didn't grow up with
Speaker 1: therapy like so many of us. And we'll talk about
Speaker 1: that stigma in the black community. I'm in and now
Speaker 1: I love it. I get excited, like me showing up
Speaker 1: for my therapy appointments is like a first day. Every time,
Speaker 1: I'm like, what do we go talk about? Like, I
Speaker 1: just can't wait to tether everything. UM. It has been
Speaker 1: a game changer for me. But one UM, one chapter
Speaker 1: of my life that was more recent than not, when
Speaker 1: I realized sort of just how important the pain body
Speaker 1: can be to UM firing off warning shots for you
Speaker 1: is I have my first panic attack probably two years ago.
Speaker 1: I'd never had one, and I didn't understand when my friends,
Speaker 1: my close friends or family members would talk about anxiety,
Speaker 1: extreme anxiety, or panic attacks. I tried to empathize and
Speaker 1: sympathize where I could, but you only know what you
Speaker 1: know until you know something differently and in a twisted way.
Speaker 1: I'm really grateful for that chapter because, oh my god,
Speaker 1: my heart just breaks so much more. I just have
Speaker 1: so much more empathy for people going through it, particularly consistently,
Speaker 1: because you know, the physicality of that was so scary
Speaker 1: and so overwhelming, and it was a one off for me,
Speaker 1: and I had a few more in the year that followed.
Speaker 1: But there are people who are ignoring these these warning
Speaker 1: signs in their bodies daily, weekly, monthly, or their self
Speaker 1: medicating to mute or none that. Um, what what signs
Speaker 1: would you encourage someone to consider if you feel this way,
Speaker 1: If if this is something that you're constantly ruminating about,
Speaker 1: you may want to consider talking to someone getting checked out,
Speaker 1: just seeing what's going on. Well, you know, it's I'm
Speaker 1: glad that you share that, because you know, first and foremost,
Speaker 1: we do want to rule out, you know, physical health
Speaker 1: problems like some people do have you know, blocked arteries,
Speaker 1: like they have conditions that have been passed on uh,
Speaker 1: you know, as you know, and we do want to
Speaker 1: make sure that we're having annual, you know, regular physical
Speaker 1: check ups, and that's what mental health professionals will always
Speaker 1: tell a new patient like, when was your last physical?
Speaker 1: Did you rule out physical health concerns? And so when
Speaker 1: people are seeing their doctor regularly, then they can say, like,
Speaker 1: I'm in good health. I don't have any reason to
Speaker 1: believe that I'm at risk for a stroke or things
Speaker 1: of that nature, because some folks really are walking around
Speaker 1: with really high blood pressure and have no idea and
Speaker 1: that needs to be managed. So once an individual knows
Speaker 1: that they are physically healthy and they can rule out
Speaker 1: those kinds of concerns, then they want to start to
Speaker 1: notice when they just feel like that tightness in their chest.
Speaker 1: But you know, the tightness isn't because of physical health,
Speaker 1: but it could be because of anxiety, and it might
Speaker 1: just feel like pressure. It might just feel like somebody
Speaker 1: has their foot on your chest or or neck, and
Speaker 1: it's like difficulties, like difficulties breathing. And then there are
Speaker 1: other folks who, you know, it seems more subtle, like
Speaker 1: they might snap more than usual um or they might
Speaker 1: say something that's out of proportion to the situation. Because yes,
Speaker 1: there are situations that are just really foul, like really stressful,
Speaker 1: and we get angry and that's normal. But when something
Speaker 1: happens and you can cognitively say, okay, I don't think
Speaker 1: that was that big of a deal the way that
Speaker 1: I reacted to it, then it is time to stop
Speaker 1: and reassess what all is going on for me. And
Speaker 1: when I talk about reassess, I introduced this, you know,
Speaker 1: the rating system in the book that is psychological fortitude
Speaker 1: that is a zero to tend um zero. You have
Speaker 1: no capacity to take care of your daily responsibility. So
Speaker 1: people you know who are working outside the home or
Speaker 1: in the home, you know, individuals who are in school
Speaker 1: maybe and working, maybe, taking care of children, taking care
Speaker 1: of their physical health. People do have that be ease,
Speaker 1: and you have to exercise to do things to take
Speaker 1: care of your your physical health. Um. And then of
Speaker 1: course we have our you know, our life purpose. But
Speaker 1: there are some folks who will say, I have no idea,
Speaker 1: you know what my purpose is, And so we need
Speaker 1: to be able to to know what that is because
Speaker 1: that hope gives us the drive, you know, to keep
Speaker 1: to keep moving towards pursuing something. And so if we're
Speaker 1: able to manage all those things and tap into our
Speaker 1: not to cut you off, but just because that stood
Speaker 1: out to me, do you believe that everyone has a
Speaker 1: life purpose, which I think is so important when people
Speaker 1: feel purposeless and like there's no point in waiting to
Speaker 1: figure something out that they don't think it's gonna come. Oh. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: I absolutely believe that every single person has a purpose
Speaker 1: for which they were put here. And you know that
Speaker 1: purpose doesn't have to be you know, being Zuri Hall,
Speaker 1: you know, and doing all the wonderful things. Um, you
Speaker 1: know that that you've accomplished. Like everyone has their own thing,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe it is I'm the best cook in
Speaker 1: my home, and so when we bring families together, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm the person who's cooking and bringing joy. Way, like,
Speaker 1: we all have some talent, but oftentimes those talents get buried,
Speaker 1: maybe because our family said, well you was supposed to
Speaker 1: be a doctor, you know, and so that person decided
Speaker 1: to go get an m d. When their purpose was
Speaker 1: in you know, spending time with the youth. You know,
Speaker 1: Like we all have these distractions from our life purpose,
Speaker 1: and so then we're always trying to fight like I
Speaker 1: know there's more to life than this. Well, maybe it's
Speaker 1: your purpose and so if we're to if we're to
Speaker 1: tend you know, we're cooking with Greece. You know, you're
Speaker 1: taking care of your work. Hopefully your work is taking
Speaker 1: you to your life purpose. You know, we're able to
Speaker 1: take care of our physical health. Uh. You know, over
Speaker 1: the course of the pandemic, it's understandable that most of
Speaker 1: us didn't get to attend like that is completely understandable.
Speaker 1: But we want to at least be at a seven
Speaker 1: or so. If there are folks whooll operating and that
Speaker 1: five and below for weeks or months or years. Three,
Speaker 1: and we know that there are people who are at
Speaker 1: five for years, it is time to talk to a professional.
Speaker 1: Talking to family is great. You know, we know our
Speaker 1: families love us, but we can't. They can't necessarily love
Speaker 1: on us the way that a licensed professional can. I
Speaker 1: love them. We're not normalizing fives, y'all. If it's been
Speaker 1: like five, we need to we need to up the
Speaker 1: anti um. It was beautiful what you said, and I
Speaker 1: completely agree. I do believe that everyone has a purpose
Speaker 1: in life and if we can tap into that, that's
Speaker 1: where we find our joy and that sense of contentment
Speaker 1: peace when we cultivate it. But it can be really
Speaker 1: hard to do, especially you know, when we have family
Speaker 1: or friends, coworkers, sometimes strangers on the internet these days,
Speaker 1: that sometimes it's the biggest thing telling us who we are,
Speaker 1: who we can't be, what we should think, why we
Speaker 1: shouldn't think this way. Um, when it comes to the
Speaker 1: black community, specifically in the stigma around talking about wellness
Speaker 1: or lack thereof, talking about therapy or lack thereof, where
Speaker 1: do you think that has come from? Why? Why has
Speaker 1: that been our burden to bear? And are you sensing
Speaker 1: a generational shift now, because I'm starting to feel it.
Speaker 1: I think I do. Um. Okay, So the first p
Speaker 1: I wish I knew where it came from, you know,
Speaker 1: so we could just go throught the whole thing. It
Speaker 1: just seems like it's always been. It's always been there. Uh.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing is that it's wonderful to have this
Speaker 1: sense of resilience in the community. I gets It's what
Speaker 1: got us out of chattel slavery. It's got us through
Speaker 1: the Civil rights movement, Like we needed that sort of
Speaker 1: like I can do this no matter what. Like that's
Speaker 1: part of you know, psychological well being is to be
Speaker 1: able to say I can experience a stressful situation and
Speaker 1: I can navigate and come through that, and I really
Speaker 1: believe that that came from our our African culture and
Speaker 1: our our heritage um as people of African ancestry. What
Speaker 1: happened though, over time, is that we lost track of
Speaker 1: our cultural resilience, started to do you know, some of
Speaker 1: what you were talking about, like trying to fit in
Speaker 1: to a cultural community that was rejecting, unaffirming in so
Speaker 1: many ways and its cycle. You left one culture behind.
Speaker 1: Those culture is saying, uh no, ma'am, you're not one
Speaker 1: of us, are you? At least not enough of one
Speaker 1: of us? And so we're kind of, you know, in
Speaker 1: the gap, and so increasing I think because we're getting
Speaker 1: to a place of crisis, this current generation is like,
Speaker 1: oh no, you gotta have some different kinds of conversations.
Speaker 1: This is unacceptable. I'm so glad that those conversations are
Speaker 1: happening now. I do sense it, especially you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a millennial. UM. When I see gen Z
Speaker 1: and the conversations that they're having, especially when it comes
Speaker 1: to public discourse, I'm just so it's equal parts I'm
Speaker 1: inspired and my heart is breaking because I feel like
Speaker 1: they're struggling, at least more publicly with mental health in
Speaker 1: really just devastating ways. And yet on the opposite end
Speaker 1: of that that pendulum, um, that swing, are people saying
Speaker 1: enough is enough. I don't want to live the life
Speaker 1: of my parents, and no, I'm not um. I don't
Speaker 1: buy into your you know, work by all means necessary,
Speaker 1: achieve all the goals, strive for this and that. I
Speaker 1: just want to chill. I just want to live my
Speaker 1: life and to have that freedom and that clarity at
Speaker 1: you know, sixteen seventeen eighteen. Sometimes because they see what's
Speaker 1: happening to their peers who are striving for something else.
Speaker 1: I really admire that that is not where I was,
Speaker 1: and I don't feel that that's where you know, the
Speaker 1: people in my generation that I was close to at
Speaker 1: least we're at that age. UM. When it comes to
Speaker 1: our community and our most common diagnoses, what what do
Speaker 1: those tend to be? Uh? You know, obviously we have bipolar,
Speaker 1: there's anxiety, depression, Um, some folks who go undiagnosed. What
Speaker 1: sort of issues do you seem to recognize the most
Speaker 1: in the black community. Yeah, there are two psychological or
Speaker 1: diagnosable disorders, like two we'll call them two buckets, and
Speaker 1: so one bucket is in fact, depression, and the other bucket,
Speaker 1: which actually we see more of them depression, is anxiety.
Speaker 1: You know, we talk about a depression a lot in
Speaker 1: the community, or at least historically we did. Increasingly we
Speaker 1: are talking about in anxiety. So that's you know a
Speaker 1: lot of worrying, which I know got passed on from
Speaker 1: a previous generation. Just folks would say, you just find
Speaker 1: something to worry about, okay, um, And so it's it's
Speaker 1: the worry, it's the hyper vigilance and the planning and
Speaker 1: the agitation that goes with worry. Um. It is you know,
Speaker 1: worry affects concentration and affects sleep, and so similarly does depression.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing about anxiety and depression that a lot
Speaker 1: of people don't know is that we they co occur
Speaker 1: um and so people who have depression are more likely
Speaker 1: to be anxious, and people who are anxious are more
Speaker 1: likely to have depression. So oftentimes we see just kind
Speaker 1: of a mix of maybe low mood and agitation that
Speaker 1: go with depression. But then we also see, you know,
Speaker 1: a lot of worry thoughts, we see a sense of hopelessness.
Speaker 1: Like this anxiety that I have is never gonna go away,
Speaker 1: and then that starts to feel like depression. Uh. You know,
Speaker 1: so the two coexists a lot um and I think
Speaker 1: that the one probably dimension of those two that we
Speaker 1: don't acknowledge enough is in fact this sort of like um,
Speaker 1: this agitation, uh, you know, being short with people and
Speaker 1: so individual would just say like, you know, why are
Speaker 1: you angry all the time? Well, you know mentally emotionally,
Speaker 1: they're caring a lot. And so rather than saying or
Speaker 1: referring to them as an angry black woman, you know,
Speaker 1: why not extend some grace. And that's what we need
Speaker 1: to be doing more of, you know in our communities
Speaker 1: is extending grace to folks. And if they can't hear you,
Speaker 1: if they're not listening to the podcast, let them know. Hey.
Speaker 1: You know I can tell you know, this situation right
Speaker 1: here is really stressful for you. I'm gonna come back,
Speaker 1: but you know, I'm gonna check on you later. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna dig in or call you names or
Speaker 1: call you out your name, um, but I'm gonna, you know,
Speaker 1: respect where you are and try to be supportive. That
Speaker 1: support from the community is so important, you know, identity, um,
Speaker 1: and how we fit in a individuals within our greater
Speaker 1: communities is so important. That sense of belonging, that sense
Speaker 1: of fellowship, that sense of you know, having a village
Speaker 1: when it takes one. Um, I love if you could
Speaker 1: just discuss the role of identity and what that plays into,
Speaker 1: how that plays into our mental health depression, possible anxiety,
Speaker 1: you know when we think about race, sex, gender, sexual orientation. Um,
Speaker 1: you've said you can access with condent energy by being
Speaker 1: who you are. How do we figure out who we are?
Speaker 1: And how important is it to have a safe space
Speaker 1: to be whoever that person is. Yeah, I mean identity
Speaker 1: that just has so many, so many layers to it.
Speaker 1: And actually one place I will start is by acknowledging
Speaker 1: that a lot of what it means to be black
Speaker 1: has negative stereotypes associated with it. Like if we could
Speaker 1: remove the negative conversations that people have about you know,
Speaker 1: black people being lazy and all these other kinds of
Speaker 1: narratives when you know, well, for hundreds of years, these
Speaker 1: folks who are working without pay, you know, like, can
Speaker 1: we reshape the narrative about what it means to be
Speaker 1: a black person in this society? Because when black people
Speaker 1: internalize this and this is what I'll say, you know,
Speaker 1: to parents and teachers. We have to be careful about
Speaker 1: how the younger people are internalizing what they think it
Speaker 1: means to be black, you know, and all this. Well,
Speaker 1: if you speak like you got some sense and you're
Speaker 1: talking white, you know, like, that's that's unacceptable and it's
Speaker 1: leaving our children more vulnerable. Whereas the research has been
Speaker 1: consistent in saying that if a black person, child, woman,
Speaker 1: who whomever, has a positive sense of what it means
Speaker 1: to be black, so we're resilient, we're creative, we make
Speaker 1: a way out of no way, you know, Like when
Speaker 1: we have that, it gets it's a lot farther in
Speaker 1: work and in school and in anything that we thrive
Speaker 1: at or we strive at, it gets us so much further.
Speaker 1: So we have to be aware, aware of removing the
Speaker 1: negative connotation and also embracing the positive that that has
Speaker 1: been lost. Uh, you know, I'll never forget. You know,
Speaker 1: when I was teaching in South Carolina and I had
Speaker 1: a student to say, well, Dr Walker, why are we
Speaker 1: why are we talking so much about Africa? You don't
Speaker 1: see me sitting around beating a drum. And I was
Speaker 1: so heartbroken for him, because I know that a lot
Speaker 1: of what we understand about being African people is negative.
Speaker 1: It's bad, it's backwards. Now we see a division in
Speaker 1: the US between people you know, of African descent who
Speaker 1: are first generation and those whose families have been here
Speaker 1: for generations, and we've got these disconnects. We're all African
Speaker 1: um but we need to tap into what that truly
Speaker 1: truly means. Because when you talk about the community and
Speaker 1: the community supporting one another, some of us don't know
Speaker 1: who the community is, and so we can't support one
Speaker 1: another because we don't know that we're all a part
Speaker 1: of this same collective of individuals that has to come together,
Speaker 1: especially in a society that isn't going to support us
Speaker 1: in the way that we need to be portant. You said,
Speaker 1: and this is a direct quote to to piggyback on
Speaker 1: what you've just shared. If a black child does not
Speaker 1: have a positive Black identity to navigate his world, he
Speaker 1: may encounter considerable emotional turmoil. Where does he fit in?
Speaker 1: The identity struggle can be difficult to navigate. Your black
Speaker 1: ancestors surrendered their cultural identity long ago to survive. They
Speaker 1: would have gladly maintained their uncolonized heritage. You have been
Speaker 1: willingly struggling to get your son to fit in to
Speaker 1: the colonizer system. Meanwhile, he is marginalized, feels justifiably unsafe,
Speaker 1: and never believes he quite belongs. This lack of belonging
Speaker 1: can have emotional consequences. I get chills reading that. I
Speaker 1: almost tear up reading that, because in certain ways that
Speaker 1: very much puts words I probably didn't even have, probably
Speaker 1: still don't have until now I can just go s
Speaker 1: read what Dr Riata wrote about some of my childhood
Speaker 1: experiences in those white spaces where I didn't know how
Speaker 1: to navigate gay and I didn't necessarily have a map
Speaker 1: of belonging to pull out of my back pocket, and
Speaker 1: I didn't have my family, my friends, and my loved
Speaker 1: ones there in those moments to remind me of who
Speaker 1: I was and why that was a good thing and
Speaker 1: where I came from. And it's hard when you're a
Speaker 1: kid who's just trying to get on, to get on anyway,
Speaker 1: to have this added layer. UM, I'd love if you
Speaker 1: could just, um maybe give some some advice to the
Speaker 1: parents specifically who might be listening. As you know, they
Speaker 1: send their children out into these worlds that aren't necessarily
Speaker 1: built for them and don't particularly want them there. Potentially. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I have to take a deep breath on on that one,
Speaker 1: as a mom who is like everyone else you know
Speaker 1: who has a child in school, trying to find the
Speaker 1: balance between the good school and I put that in
Speaker 1: air quotes, um, and a school where they do in
Speaker 1: fact fit in and there maybe more embraced. And it
Speaker 1: is insane to have to make these decisions. And this
Speaker 1: is just a plug for anyone who's been thinking about,
Speaker 1: you know, creating schools like we need more schools that
Speaker 1: can educate our children about not just math and science
Speaker 1: and algebra, but also affirm who they are, rather than
Speaker 1: removing us from the history books or making those history
Speaker 1: books look a little suspect. I'm sorry, I'm in Texas
Speaker 1: history books. It's a thing. Oh you should have laughed
Speaker 1: with that. That would have been that would have clarified
Speaker 1: so much what you may be going through. I am sorry.
Speaker 1: Oh my goodness, you you we could talk about this
Speaker 1: weekly um adventures in anyway, I digress um. One of
Speaker 1: the things that I know as a psychologist who happens
Speaker 1: to be a mom is that you know, We have
Speaker 1: to have conversations with our children about what happened in
Speaker 1: school and how they're making sense of what happened in school,
Speaker 1: so that they are not internalizing, well, this happened because
Speaker 1: I'm black and there's something wrong with me. Absolutely not.
Speaker 1: They need to know that if someone mistreated them and
Speaker 1: they think it has anything to do with being black
Speaker 1: or being brown, being a person of color, that it's
Speaker 1: about the other person. It's about the teacher, it's about
Speaker 1: those students, it's about all those other individuals. I had
Speaker 1: a similar experience that you did, except that my school was,
Speaker 1: at least my first grade classroom, which I remember was
Speaker 1: was the school was integrated, but I was in the
Speaker 1: gifted class. Uh, and the teacher would never call on me.
Speaker 1: So I was the only black child in the class. Uh.
Speaker 1: The teacher would never call on me. Um. And after
Speaker 1: a few weeks, I had no idea why. After a
Speaker 1: few weeks, I got moved out of that classroom. Um,
Speaker 1: and I got moved into a classroom where incidentally, it
Speaker 1: was almost black or African American, and I was helping
Speaker 1: the other students because I didn't have anything else to do.
Speaker 1: Already knew what they were were learning, and it wasn't
Speaker 1: until years later that I realized what likely happened to me. Um.
Speaker 1: Fortunately I was also in I think similar to what
Speaker 1: you described black family, you know, black unity, black neighborhood
Speaker 1: and all those things. And what parents said to me
Speaker 1: was you will have to work twice as hard to
Speaker 1: get half as far. Somehow, you know, we make it
Speaker 1: make sense. But even if we think that is true
Speaker 1: for our younger children today, we need to be absolutely
Speaker 1: sure that we're going another step and saying, these are
Speaker 1: people who look like you who are inventors. These are
Speaker 1: people who look like you who have created list off
Speaker 1: you know, who have written books, who write poetry. You know,
Speaker 1: we see you know, folks in sports and entertainment, but
Speaker 1: we don't always necessary. We don't always see the folks
Speaker 1: who are who are brilliant until we're in a movie, right,
Speaker 1: So we wait until there's a movie and then we say, oh, wow,
Speaker 1: I didn't know we did that. We have to be
Speaker 1: much more intentional about showing our children who they are
Speaker 1: and showing them in a different light. Now, sometimes we
Speaker 1: might have to say, like, you can't go out there
Speaker 1: calling folks racist, because then that I'll get them in
Speaker 1: another heap of trouble. Ask me how I know you,
Speaker 1: says my mama said, But we can't do that. We
Speaker 1: need to tell the kids to stand down. I mean,
Speaker 1: what if what if? You know, sometimes they find themselves
Speaker 1: in situations where that is quite literally what is happening.
Speaker 1: Come home and tell your parents. M and your parents
Speaker 1: will will fight the battle, and parents have to fight
Speaker 1: the battle. You know, we can't say, well, I went
Speaker 1: through that, it was good enough for me, like no, no,
Speaker 1: anyone who feels inclined to say that to a child
Speaker 1: just just don't. Just don't, you know, ask him about
Speaker 1: what happened, asked him about who all was there. Make
Speaker 1: sure that you can understand that child's experience in the
Speaker 1: way that they experienced it. So did they know that
Speaker 1: you care? So they know that you hear them, because
Speaker 1: when they go through things, if they feel like no
Speaker 1: one's listening, then they won't be inclined, you know, to share.
Speaker 1: And then yeah, parents have to go hard in the
Speaker 1: pain basically, you know, for our children, like we we
Speaker 1: are the first line of defense and I know that
Speaker 1: we absolutely love our children. And meanwhile, we have to
Speaker 1: make sure that we're communicating by being present. And one
Speaker 1: of the reasons that I wrote the book is because
Speaker 1: a lot of us can't be present because we're so
Speaker 1: anxious and we're so depressed on our jobs. We're fighting
Speaker 1: similar battles, but we're the first line of defense for
Speaker 1: our children, So you know, we have our battle over here.
Speaker 1: Reach out to whoever you need to reach out to,
Speaker 1: so that we can be present for the youth. Because
Speaker 1: when I see the crisis, you know, in our children, UM,
Speaker 1: it gives me. It gives me pause, It really does.
Speaker 1: I'd love to dig into the topic of unmasking depression
Speaker 1: just a little bit more paraphrasing. You've said, we normalize
Speaker 1: mental health issues and have been able to hide from them,
Speaker 1: but when the pandemic happened, some of us were forced
Speaker 1: to face it. Um. You touched a little bit on
Speaker 1: what depression was earlier. UM. I really appreciated the breaking
Speaker 1: down of how a siety can eventually lead to depression,
Speaker 1: especially when we're suppressing that anxiety long enough that we
Speaker 1: start to feel it's inescapable, that there's no way out
Speaker 1: from it, and that sort of lays the groundwork for depression. UM.
Speaker 1: How does it tend to present depression in its many forms.
Speaker 1: And also this is something that I'm really fascinated by
Speaker 1: the idea of because I see it around me, I've
Speaker 1: felt it at certain points, and we're reporting stories in
Speaker 1: my space now on people who have suffered from it.
Speaker 1: And that is high functioning depression UM, which seems to
Speaker 1: present a little bit differently than than we might expect.
Speaker 1: So could you talk a little bit about about that.
Speaker 1: We have this interesting idea that we think we know
Speaker 1: what depression looks like, except that it doesn't always present
Speaker 1: a certain way. You know, depression is oftentimes an internal experience.
Speaker 1: You know, it is the feelings of worthless us, which
Speaker 1: is not unsurprising in the society in which we live,
Speaker 1: Like if you don't adhere to a certain standard, then
Speaker 1: you're not good enough. And so folks are you know,
Speaker 1: trying to fight because we are smart, you know, we
Speaker 1: are intelligent. You know, we do have the capacity and
Speaker 1: especially if you learn from parents, like you know you
Speaker 1: just put on your eyelashes and keep it moving. You
Speaker 1: know that we know how to do that. But it
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that we aren't in fact suffering on the inside.
Speaker 1: And so it looks like sleep problems, you know, falling
Speaker 1: difficulties falling asleep and running around with five hours or
Speaker 1: less asleep per night, Like that's not that's not good
Speaker 1: for the body. Um, it looks like sometimes sometimes just
Speaker 1: not having the energy to get out of bed. But
Speaker 1: you know those dunkin Donuts commercials from back in the day,
Speaker 1: you know, you gotta make the you gotta make the donuts.
Speaker 1: And it feels like you don't have the option to
Speaker 1: just be in bed because there's so many people who
Speaker 1: are relying on you. And that's a good thing, you
Speaker 1: know in some ways, because you know, that's our purpose,
Speaker 1: or at least that's our short term purpose. My short
Speaker 1: term purpose is to be here for everyone else. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it's a distraction from the greater good or the bigger
Speaker 1: picture that we're supposed to be pursuing. Um. For other people,
Speaker 1: it is difficulties with overeating or under eating. So depression
Speaker 1: is like it's a constellation of things. Um. If it
Speaker 1: is biologically determined, so folks have disregulation in their hormonal system,
Speaker 1: then they can benefit from having antidepressant medication. But for
Speaker 1: a lot of people, the depression is more you know,
Speaker 1: situational in circumstances. So uh, you know, they're in a
Speaker 1: job for years in which they are trapped and miserable,
Speaker 1: and you know, they're struggling with their sleep and their
Speaker 1: concentration and their mind is just like I can't take
Speaker 1: this anymore. But you've gotta keep it moving. Because there's
Speaker 1: something about looking depressed and I put that an air quote,
Speaker 1: There's something about looking weak. There's something about looking like
Speaker 1: you got issues. We know, if somebody got issues, then
Speaker 1: we ignore them, marginalize them, and nobody wants that, you know.
Speaker 1: We we want to still be in the mix of
Speaker 1: things because at least it gives us an opportunity to
Speaker 1: feel alive. You know. We get invited to happy hour,
Speaker 1: but then we go home and then that depression, you know,
Speaker 1: s feelings kind of sink in or sneak in before
Speaker 1: you know it. And that's why we have to be proactive,
Speaker 1: you know. If you start to see, like I said,
Speaker 1: those ratings, like you know, I'm at a six today, Shoot,
Speaker 1: I was at a six last week? Who I was
Speaker 1: at a four? Most of Oh? You know, that's when
Speaker 1: we know, like, okay, I gotta shift something. And the
Speaker 1: chief is rate has two parts. It's taking stuff off
Speaker 1: of the plate, you know, the things that are overwhelming us,
Speaker 1: the things that we don't like to do if possible. Um.
Speaker 1: And then it's also adding good stuff, so you know,
Speaker 1: reaching out to friends, if not one a week, than
Speaker 1: at least once a month, and making a commitment to
Speaker 1: doing more of the things that give us joy, more
Speaker 1: things that give us joy. Um. That is one of
Speaker 1: my big words for this year's joy. Just just to play, adventure,
Speaker 1: to explore because it's something that I put off for
Speaker 1: so long in the pursuit of all of the things.
Speaker 1: And as a black woman in my industry, in the world,
Speaker 1: you know, there are a lot of myths that I
Speaker 1: have dealt with that I've sort of put on my
Speaker 1: shoulders and other people that put on me that I'm
Speaker 1: sure you have that we just know we we know
Speaker 1: these these tropes, we've lived them. We've been inaccurately labeled
Speaker 1: as them. I love if you could unpack a few
Speaker 1: of these um negative sort of maybe I retract that
Speaker 1: not necessarily negative all the time, but can certainly start
Speaker 1: to feel negative if it's a label that we don't want.
Speaker 1: I am a strong black woman, sometimes I'm also really
Speaker 1: vulnerable and delicate and fragile black woman I am all
Speaker 1: of those things and a black woman, so I don't
Speaker 1: necessarily refute the label. Um, but any good thing can
Speaker 1: become a bad thing when it's too much of a thing. So, um,
Speaker 1: if we could just break down a few of these
Speaker 1: and what they mean to you, how you've seen them
Speaker 1: manifest in good ways and or bad ways, um, and
Speaker 1: and how we should how we should navigate these labels
Speaker 1: in our in our world. First up, we have the
Speaker 1: strong black woman, the ultimate helper power through the pain
Speaker 1: quote unquote still I Rise, one of my favorite poems. Um,
Speaker 1: But talk to me a little bit about who the
Speaker 1: strong black woman is and our relationship as black women
Speaker 1: to this label. You know, I appreciate what I hear
Speaker 1: you saying. That is like, yes, there is there is
Speaker 1: the positive side, and then there's kind of the underbelly. Right,
Speaker 1: So the positive side of the strong black woman is
Speaker 1: someone who knows she has it in her to be
Speaker 1: able to navigate whatever comes her way. Know, like the
Speaker 1: school calls, the car breaks down, you didn't get the promotion,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, it is, Like, Okay, they kind of
Speaker 1: knocked me down just a little bit, but I'm just
Speaker 1: gonna get back up, you know, and I got this.
Speaker 1: And interestingly, you know when we think about stress, like
Speaker 1: stressful things happen all the time. When stress gets to
Speaker 1: be bad is when we say to ourselves, I can't
Speaker 1: handle this. I don't have the wherewithal to deal with this.
Speaker 1: That's when we start to get into trouble. So being
Speaker 1: strong is like, you know, it starts with the mind.
Speaker 1: Like we can't do anything without our minds. And so
Speaker 1: if in our mind we're like, yeah, I can't do this,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't have what it takes, like, then
Speaker 1: we're not gonna get anything done. But if we start
Speaker 1: with I got this, great, The problem is we don't
Speaker 1: realize when we don't got this um, you know, And
Speaker 1: like you said, we do just power and press through
Speaker 1: no matter what. On that broken ankle, I literally had
Speaker 1: a fracture in my ankle a few years ago. I
Speaker 1: actually tried to at help and they said, oh, no,
Speaker 1: you know, it's just it's just sprained a little bit
Speaker 1: um and it was fractured. But I was going out
Speaker 1: the country and I said, Okay, we're just gonna make this,
Speaker 1: gonna make this work. So that's where that there was
Speaker 1: an analogy. I always mix this up from earlier from
Speaker 1: you were literally out here running on this broken foot,
Speaker 1: fractured foot, fractured foot. Dr read. I tried, I tried
Speaker 1: to get help. I really, I really did, UM. And
Speaker 1: when they said I had to wear the boot, I
Speaker 1: wore the boot diligently. I wasn't happy about the boot,
Speaker 1: but I did wear it um And yeah, so you know,
Speaker 1: even though we're mental health professionals, we're still out here
Speaker 1: struggling just like everyone else and trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what the balance is. And that's the word, you know,
Speaker 1: when we think about, you know, our emotional well being
Speaker 1: is kind of a seesaw. You know, we want to
Speaker 1: make sure that it's at least level um, or that
Speaker 1: the good stuff is higher than the not so good stuff.
Speaker 1: And when the overwhelming stuff starts to uh supersede the
Speaker 1: good stuff, then you know, we've we've got some issues
Speaker 1: and we have to be able to be honest with ourselves.
Speaker 1: But I think one of the reasons we aren't um
Speaker 1: is because of fear. You know, what we tell ourselves
Speaker 1: will happen if you stop and wait and listen quietly.
Speaker 1: And that's why the pandemic was so hard on so
Speaker 1: many people who are running around, uh and avoiding the
Speaker 1: things that we need to be able to address and
Speaker 1: the pandemics, and I'm gon shut all of that down. UM.
Speaker 1: So you're not going happy hour every day, You're not
Speaker 1: going to all these social events and and running around
Speaker 1: and rip into these things that you don't have to do. Um.
Speaker 1: And some folks took that opportunity to say, Okay, I
Speaker 1: am going to reset, and other folks said, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna be angry with everybody until this pandemic is over. UM.
Speaker 1: And now we see I think some of the consequences
Speaker 1: of that where folks, you know, we've got these surges
Speaker 1: coming back, and folks are like, but I just gotta
Speaker 1: live um, because everything else is so stressful, I at
Speaker 1: least have to balance it out. But we might be
Speaker 1: balancing in ways that are the healthiest for us when
Speaker 1: it comes to uh, well, hold on, I want to
Speaker 1: get through at least one more of these labels. But
Speaker 1: I'm very curious to know what the key to balance is. Uh.
Speaker 1: Some of the things that you recommend people kind of
Speaker 1: sit with when they're on the quest for that balance.
Speaker 1: But another one of these these labels, these stereotypes you
Speaker 1: actually mentioned this, you know, when you were growing up,
Speaker 1: and that this was something that you always heard, that
Speaker 1: we must be two times three times better than better
Speaker 1: than insert whoever else here who doesn't have to deal
Speaker 1: with what we have to deal with. UM. As far
Speaker 1: as burden, societal pressure, stereotypes, history, when it comes to
Speaker 1: being high, achieving multiple degrees, financial assets, UM, how has
Speaker 1: that affected us Black women specifically? UM, when it comes
Speaker 1: to us going out into the world and deciding what
Speaker 1: we want, we feel this pressure to go get certain
Speaker 1: things and plenty of it. Yeah. You know, I think
Speaker 1: on the one hand, we know that black women lead
Speaker 1: an entrepreneurial resources or or efforts, and I think it's
Speaker 1: that critic creativity that's always there, that's like I'm going
Speaker 1: to build something. I see a need and I'm going
Speaker 1: to address it. And I think that is absolutely just
Speaker 1: inspiring and amazing. At the same time, you know, we're
Speaker 1: overrepresented among individuals who have serious chronic illness, you know,
Speaker 1: and I talked earlier about you know, having stroke and
Speaker 1: and also having heart disease and also having all these
Speaker 1: kinds of issues that if we address them earlier on,
Speaker 1: we won't see the morbidity and the mortality that's related
Speaker 1: to these issues. There are problems. There are cancers for
Speaker 1: which black people are less likely to be diagnosed than
Speaker 1: other groups, But then we're more likely to die because
Speaker 1: we don't get help until it's time to go to
Speaker 1: the emergency department. And that's true, you know, for physical
Speaker 1: health and mental health, but especially with mental health. You know,
Speaker 1: folks are in crisis and they go to emergency, but
Speaker 1: emergency isn't really prepared to deal with mental health crisis
Speaker 1: um and so you know, then folks may have a
Speaker 1: negative experience and they say, well, I'm not gonna deal
Speaker 1: with that anymore, and then these cycles can repeat themselves.
Speaker 1: And so that's why we have to be so much
Speaker 1: more mindful of Okay, where am I today? You know,
Speaker 1: where am I in the morning on Wednesday? Where am
Speaker 1: I in the afternoon on Friday? So that folks can
Speaker 1: start to track numerically where they are, because otherwise, what
Speaker 1: do we do? Somebody says, well, how are you doing today? Fine?
Speaker 1: Some people say blessed and highly favored? What is that?
Speaker 1: What does that mean? I can't complain because I do
Speaker 1: no good. But when we're able to sit with a rating,
Speaker 1: it gives us an opportunity to do something. Um and
Speaker 1: I'll use this example if I can, because it's it's
Speaker 1: so simple. UM My son has has two parents who
Speaker 1: are psychologists. Blessed his heart because of that. Some of
Speaker 1: this boocab Larry he already has. He's eleven now, he
Speaker 1: already has this vocabulary. A couple of years ago, you know,
Speaker 1: we were in the pandemic. I was on the sofa.
Speaker 1: I wasn't feeling well. I'm pretty sure I got some
Speaker 1: bad food. And he saw me and he said, you know, mom,
Speaker 1: are you okay? And especially for your child, you know,
Speaker 1: you don't say like, oh you know I need you
Speaker 1: to intervene. You just said like, I'm okay. You know
Speaker 1: you don't want your child to worry. But he could
Speaker 1: tell I didn't look so good, and so he said,
Speaker 1: on a zero to ten, how are you doing? He did, okay,
Speaker 1: young king, Oh my goodness. He was nine. He's like
Speaker 1: on a zero, Oh my goodness. So I said, h
Speaker 1: I'm at the five. And so I could see his
Speaker 1: little wheels turning because he was trying to figure out, okay,
Speaker 1: like what do I do with this five? And so
Speaker 1: he says, oh, Mom, can I give you some water. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you very much, sweetie. Yes, I would love some water.
Speaker 1: And so my son went got me some water because
Speaker 1: I was at a five. And of course he went
Speaker 1: back back and played with video games. But he understood,
Speaker 1: you know, that there was more to it. He assessed,
Speaker 1: and then he knew what to do because of the
Speaker 1: rating that I gave him. It didn't have to be
Speaker 1: a perfect rating, you know, it didn't have to be
Speaker 1: something that he had to look at the scale and like, no,
Speaker 1: he's like a five. That's about midway. Okay, something needs
Speaker 1: to happen, and we can do that for ourselves, and
Speaker 1: we can do that for the people around us. So
Speaker 1: then when someone says they're fine, even if we get
Speaker 1: the sense that, like, well, something's not quite right, you
Speaker 1: get a value that tells you so much more. And
Speaker 1: I see it all the times where it really does work. Wow. Wow,
Speaker 1: that's a really a rating system. That's something that I
Speaker 1: need to probably think about more. So it's a good
Speaker 1: reminder just to self check in a few seconds where
Speaker 1: am I right now on the scale, because so often
Speaker 1: we just go, go, go, We don't give our self
Speaker 1: time to even pause and think about it. I'm sometimes
Speaker 1: probably afraid of where my number would land if I
Speaker 1: took the ten seconds to think about it. But we
Speaker 1: need to and I love that little man. Help you
Speaker 1: think about it? That is adorable. Oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: can't wait to hear what he's like at fifteen, sixteen, eighteen.
Speaker 1: If that's what he was doing at nine, wow, are
Speaker 1: you impressive? Yeah, we'll see. I mean, honestly, I almost
Speaker 1: forgot that. I wasn't feeling so good. It's like, did
Speaker 1: he just ask me? Yeah? I mean it was. I
Speaker 1: love it. I love he's he's the sweetest. You know.
Speaker 1: The world that he is growing up in and will
Speaker 1: eventually go out into is a digital world, and it's
Speaker 1: sometimes it was like a catch twenty two. Two sides
Speaker 1: to this very specific and unique coin um. On one hand,
Speaker 1: it can be very detrimental to our mental health, you know, bullying,
Speaker 1: self esteem, comparing ourselves to others. And then on the
Speaker 1: other hand, it's also shifting public conversation, is lifting the
Speaker 1: veil on these things that we haven't traditionally talked about.
Speaker 1: It went from being a dirty little secret to something
Speaker 1: that we can unapologetically speak on, you know, with the
Speaker 1: Olympics having recently happened. We had some own biles Naomi
Speaker 1: Osaka talking about their mental health and doing it unapologetically.
Speaker 1: Uh Summer Walker talking about her social anxiety. These are
Speaker 1: things that we get to hear and experience um and
Speaker 1: things that resonate with us because of the same digital
Speaker 1: beast that sometimes is making us lose our minds. So
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on social media and how it
Speaker 1: impacts mental health? You know, everything with moderation, and that
Speaker 1: includes social media, because yes, there is good and there
Speaker 1: is there is ugly, but the opportunities that it has
Speaker 1: created in so many dimensions, as you said, like access
Speaker 1: to you know, respectable public figures who are comfortable talking
Speaker 1: about their well being and how they've normalized that for
Speaker 1: so many others of their generation and also those before
Speaker 1: them and those who are younger like that's important. At
Speaker 1: the same time, we have to monitor how much we
Speaker 1: intake social media the comparisons, because the comparisons are the
Speaker 1: almost the death of well being because rather than tapping
Speaker 1: into our purpose, we're trying to figure out how to
Speaker 1: approximate what this other person is doing on on I G.
Speaker 1: And so it's okay sometimes to get to get inspiration,
Speaker 1: but that inspiration is to be Wow, look at how
Speaker 1: that person achieved this tremendous goal by being who they are.
Speaker 1: Let me figure out how I can maximize and tap
Speaker 1: into the brilliance and power of who I am, because unfortunately,
Speaker 1: what we end up doing is saying, well, if I
Speaker 1: can't do that, then I'm nothing or I'm I'm worthless. Well, no,
Speaker 1: this goes back to we eat. We're put here for
Speaker 1: a purpose, and if we need to, you know, go
Speaker 1: about her daily lives and maybe just make a note
Speaker 1: of what went well today, what didn't go so well today?
Speaker 1: How would I want things to be different in my
Speaker 1: life based on what happened today. Then that can get
Speaker 1: us closer to where it is that we want to be.
Speaker 1: Social media isn't going to get us there, don't get
Speaker 1: me wrong. Sometimes I you know, log in just to
Speaker 1: see what funny thing happened, you know, today, and also
Speaker 1: to be able to connect with the community because the
Speaker 1: community is having important conversations at the same time, it
Speaker 1: can become a tremendous distraction and some of us need
Speaker 1: to be able to say, Okay, I'm gonna put this
Speaker 1: app on my phone if it's important to me, not
Speaker 1: to spend more than forty five minutes total per day
Speaker 1: on social media, and I need help with that. Put
Speaker 1: the app on the phone and lock it down. But
Speaker 1: I understand it can be hard to do that. We
Speaker 1: can take baby steps. If someone's at three hours, then
Speaker 1: maybe say okay, I'm only gonna do two hours on Monday, Wednesday, Friday.
Speaker 1: You know, everyone can take baby steps to where it
Speaker 1: is they're trying to get the time, because I will
Speaker 1: admit I have set the timers and they're like, it's
Speaker 1: been forty five minutes, and I'm like, back off. Nobody
Speaker 1: asked you. I definitely asked you, but I'm still gonna
Speaker 1: do them squirrel. So it is something you have to
Speaker 1: be conscious of and it takes time. So so slow
Speaker 1: baby steps, be graceful or be gracious with yourself. You
Speaker 1: have a take on the word should, the idea of
Speaker 1: should and how it relates to problem solving. What is that?
Speaker 1: Can you break it down? Yeah? Us? And I pause
Speaker 1: because you you should it earlier and I thought, oh,
Speaker 1: tell me wait, call me out, call me out, Dr Rita.
Speaker 1: When did I should? I can't remember. It was about
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe fifteen or so minutes ago, and
Speaker 1: it's like I hear the word, I'm just like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know what we intend I should is presumably a motivator,
Speaker 1: right like I should exercise more, or I should get
Speaker 1: more sleep, I should call and check on my friend.
Speaker 1: And it's supposed to be a motivator. But what it
Speaker 1: does is to actually just make us feel bad one
Speaker 1: because we were shooting on something that we didn't do obviously,
Speaker 1: and then it immobilizes us rather than give us an
Speaker 1: opportunity to figure out what needs to happen. And so
Speaker 1: and my students, you know, they all know, like, just
Speaker 1: don't don't use this word shoot around her. Just don't
Speaker 1: do it like she's cringed on the inside. If we instead,
Speaker 1: let's say it would be helpful, and I'll, you know,
Speaker 1: I'll use the example of um of social media. You know,
Speaker 1: it would be helpful if I spent less time on
Speaker 1: social media. Okay, it would be helpful, But I'm not
Speaker 1: doing that. M what's keeping me from spending less time?
Speaker 1: What am I getting from social media? Is there another
Speaker 1: place that I can get what I'm getting from social media?
Speaker 1: Is it because I lose track of time? Then yes,
Speaker 1: put the app on the phone and even if you
Speaker 1: push back, you might say, why am I pushing back
Speaker 1: on the app? Am I avoiding something else? Is this
Speaker 1: really that good? You know? Because after a while you
Speaker 1: know it's not. But so much you can get right,
Speaker 1: like the first twenty minutes you've gotten something, and by
Speaker 1: a minute number seventy nine you're not getting anything else,
Speaker 1: you know, like what is really going on? And so
Speaker 1: we can replace should with anything with anything? And I'll
Speaker 1: give you an example, because Charlemagne tried to trick me
Speaker 1: um some weeks ago with anything. It's so how funny
Speaker 1: you bring him up, because I was just thinking about
Speaker 1: him at this exact moment. He said, how did he
Speaker 1: How did he try to set you up? Charlemagne? Can
Speaker 1: you not he did? He said, well, you shouldn't smoke crack, right,
Speaker 1: I can hear him asking the question, okay, and what
Speaker 1: what was your response? I was, I was stump for
Speaker 1: about one eighth of a second, and I said, it
Speaker 1: would be helpful if a person didn't smoke crack, But
Speaker 1: what's making them smoke crack? Like what is going on
Speaker 1: in their environment? We assume they have a physical addiction, yes,
Speaker 1: and so we have to help with the physical addiction.
Speaker 1: You know what's keeping them from getting the help from
Speaker 1: the addiction is that resources, you know, start the problem solved.
Speaker 1: That what was it that prompted them to start using
Speaker 1: the crack in the first place. Because we have to
Speaker 1: be able to address the underlying issues, you know, we
Speaker 1: have to be able to problem solve. So saying you
Speaker 1: know why I shouldn't use substances or I shouldn't drink
Speaker 1: you know, four glasses of wine every night? Well or
Speaker 1: four bottle that four bottle? You know, like, what is
Speaker 1: the underlying issue? Because just saying well, I should or
Speaker 1: I should not, it just makes us feel bad because
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep doing it anyway. Instead, let's try and
Speaker 1: figure out what the hindrances are to being able to
Speaker 1: address whatever the issue is. Okay, just a heads up.
Speaker 1: In this next segment, I want to share a content
Speaker 1: warning as we will be discussing suicide. So if you
Speaker 1: find this topic triggering, please check the episode description the
Speaker 1: show notes for the specific time codes and you can
Speaker 1: skip past this segment. Dr Rito, we talked about this
Speaker 1: briefly just before you know we started the conversation recording,
Speaker 1: and it is suicide is becoming such a topic of conversation.
Speaker 1: We are losing so many beautiful souls, and people are
Speaker 1: so surprised sometimes by the folks that we're losing. And
Speaker 1: you know, to touch back on the the idea of
Speaker 1: high functioning depression and us not sometimes realizing what this
Speaker 1: depression or anxiety looks like, what it presents as UM,
Speaker 1: I think sometimes feeds this surprise. You know, Chesley Christ
Speaker 1: was a former Miss USA, beautiful woman inside and out,
Speaker 1: one of my fellow entertainment news reporters, and she committed suicide. UM.
Speaker 1: Not too long ago, the Walking Dead actor Moses Moseley
Speaker 1: died from a gunshot wound to the head. UM. A
Speaker 1: Black cheerleader, nineteen years old. This was just this was
Speaker 1: very recently, Arlana Miller Um. She left a painfully raw,
Speaker 1: seemingly clearheaded suicide note where she she laid it out
Speaker 1: so plainly. That's what broke my heart the most is
Speaker 1: that she had thought about this UM considerably. UM. And
Speaker 1: often where are we as a community, particularly UM black,
Speaker 1: the Black community at the intersection of mental health when
Speaker 1: it comes to suicide. From your observation and experience, well,
Speaker 1: there's so many different ways to think about this, and
Speaker 1: I think first and foremost, it's important for the audience
Speaker 1: to know that I think of suicide and those of
Speaker 1: us who who operate in this space, we think of
Speaker 1: it as preventable. And that's why we have to have
Speaker 1: these conversations so that we can be aware that the
Speaker 1: inner workings of a person is oftentimes not something that
Speaker 1: you're going to see on the outside. We have learned
Speaker 1: and perfected masking, We have perfected showing up no matter
Speaker 1: what is happening on the inside, and so even if
Speaker 1: someone is an overwhelming pain, if they don't want to
Speaker 1: share that with you, they will not And that's why
Speaker 1: we have to check on people before they get to
Speaker 1: a place of crisis. And I say this to my
Speaker 1: doc students all the time. If your patients or if
Speaker 1: your clients get to a place where they are ready
Speaker 1: to die, there is nothing that you can do, and
Speaker 1: it is it is jarring for them, but I need
Speaker 1: them to know that if they haven't done the work
Speaker 1: on the front end to put in place strategies and
Speaker 1: things that that client can do to get through that
Speaker 1: moment of crisis, then it's not going to work out
Speaker 1: in the end as far as saving that their lives.
Speaker 1: But there are things that we can do much farther upstream,
Speaker 1: so that those folks know that they're not alone, that
Speaker 1: there is someone there with them, that they don't have to,
Speaker 1: you know, suffer in silence. But we have to start
Speaker 1: laying this groundwork pretty early on um in life, you know,
Speaker 1: when they're starting to struggle, so they don't, in fact,
Speaker 1: you know, rely on the mask, because the mask can
Speaker 1: be the default. You know, it really is the default.
Speaker 1: As long as I look good on the on the outside,
Speaker 1: then I'm okay. Um, as long as I'm not you know,
Speaker 1: in a mental breakdown, I'm okay. And that's why we
Speaker 1: have to start to shift these conversation asians right right.
Speaker 1: Time magazine reports that among black youth and young adults
Speaker 1: in particular, suicide rates have climbed steadily over the past
Speaker 1: two decades. You know, I mentioned Chestle earlier obviously that
Speaker 1: the young woman, the black cheerleader who also took her
Speaker 1: life very recently and actually quoted the quote that Chestly
Speaker 1: shared in her final Instagram post, May this day bring
Speaker 1: you rest and peace, and those two words rest in peace.
Speaker 1: It just got it. It gives me chills to think
Speaker 1: about because I think so many of us can relate
Speaker 1: to the lack of that, to the desperate need for that,
Speaker 1: and I would so appreciate if you can speak to
Speaker 1: for black women specifically, there seems to be a gap
Speaker 1: or a misconception around what someone who commits suicide looks
Speaker 1: like and we don't tend to to fit that bill.
Speaker 1: Why do you think there is such a misconception around
Speaker 1: or gap between um, who commits suicide and really this
Speaker 1: black women specifically to this conversation, but just big picture,
Speaker 1: who commits suicide and who doesn't commit suicide? Because I
Speaker 1: think that will help inform why we're so surprised when
Speaker 1: someone that would I would never think that type of
Speaker 1: person would do that. Does it? What are what? Where
Speaker 1: is the disconnect as a whole with our with our society.
Speaker 1: It's interesting. There was a study uh some years ago
Speaker 1: in which black pastors were interviewed and the thinking back
Speaker 1: then was that, you know, because black people are so religious,
Speaker 1: that black pastors, you know, being leaders in the community,
Speaker 1: that they are the individuals who kind of have their
Speaker 1: finger on the pulse of what's happening. And so what
Speaker 1: they said was the conclusion of this study was that well,
Speaker 1: suicide is a white thing, you know, first and foremost,
Speaker 1: that's not something that a community of people who have
Speaker 1: fought so hard to live would then, do you know,
Speaker 1: to take one's own life. So I think that's part
Speaker 1: of the narrative that still exists in our community. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, the pastors were you know, able to communicate
Speaker 1: that this just isn't who we are. And I really
Speaker 1: do think that that reflected and continues to reflect what
Speaker 1: we have in our community. Interestingly, when we look at
Speaker 1: certain age groups of Black women, what we have seen
Speaker 1: is that the suicide attempt rate, so those who have
Speaker 1: an attempt but it's not a fatal attempt, that the
Speaker 1: rates for those individuals from age eighteen to twenty five
Speaker 1: or at least those are the statistics that came out
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, that they were comparable to
Speaker 1: white women aged eighteen to twenty five. But what happens is,
Speaker 1: you know, when someone has an attempt and they survive it, uh,
Speaker 1: we don't necessarily know the family, you know, is secretive,
Speaker 1: and so we don't understand that the person really was
Speaker 1: in a serious crisis. Um. But now because the crises
Speaker 1: are getting to be so overwhelming, um, individuals are using
Speaker 1: more lethal means because of the COVID pandemic. I don't
Speaker 1: know if a lot of people know that the preliminary
Speaker 1: data suggests that more black people are dying by suicide,
Speaker 1: you know, since in the in the midst of COVID,
Speaker 1: white people are dying less. Um, so there's something that's
Speaker 1: happening or has shifted differently in the community. And so,
Speaker 1: you know, yes, if we're looking for people to be
Speaker 1: a certain way, and maybe these are individuals who have
Speaker 1: been uh propped up to some degree by over engaging
Speaker 1: in activities and staying busy, and then maybe that prop
Speaker 1: or those props have been taken away that you know,
Speaker 1: when those individuals are alone and they're quiet space and
Speaker 1: they're struggling, you know, with the thoughts and they're struggling
Speaker 1: with the pain, and they're struggling with feeling like they're
Speaker 1: a burden to other people, then we're not able to
Speaker 1: get to them in time. And that's why folks have
Speaker 1: been saying it, we have to figure out how to
Speaker 1: institute this check on your strong friends. You know, those
Speaker 1: are the ones who look like they have it all together,
Speaker 1: everything's going fine. Uh, you know, they have so much success,
Speaker 1: they have so much to live for. But it's because
Speaker 1: we're not privy to the internal dialogue that they have
Speaker 1: going on. You know, check on your strong friends. It's
Speaker 1: we hear it, we say it. It's so true, and
Speaker 1: it's so important because so often those strong friends are
Speaker 1: struggling with some of the stereotypes or the labels right
Speaker 1: that we talked about earlier, the pressure to live up
Speaker 1: to that label of strong black woman, of superwoman, of
Speaker 1: you know, whatever, whatever it happens to be, and maybe
Speaker 1: don't even know how to ask for the help that
Speaker 1: they have never considered someone might be willing to give
Speaker 1: or ready to give if it was just articulated. Um,
Speaker 1: you mentioned loved ones, family and friends, not necessarily knowing,
Speaker 1: I missed the signs. I had no idea. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes I'll sit down with people I do a lot
Speaker 1: of true crime reporting, and I'm speaking with the mothers,
Speaker 1: the fathers, the sisters and brothers of missing people, some
Speaker 1: of whom the authorities suspect have committed sue aside. And
Speaker 1: so I'm in the room with these people while they're
Speaker 1: sobbing and saying they wouldn't do it. It's not suicide.
Speaker 1: And my heart breaks and who knows, right, who knows
Speaker 1: if it was suicide, who knows if um it was
Speaker 1: something else that, if it was homicide. But at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, there is just there's such a
Speaker 1: strong rebuke of anyone we know, any know, anyone we
Speaker 1: love doing something like that. How do you feel about that?
Speaker 1: I think, and this is just me personally speaking, the
Speaker 1: idea that I would say my my mother, my father,
Speaker 1: my love and would never do that. In recent years,
Speaker 1: I won't say that anymore because the truth is I'm
Speaker 1: realizing through my own personal experiences, through the news, through headlines,
Speaker 1: we never know. You just never know. What are your
Speaker 1: thoughts on that they would never do that? A line?
Speaker 1: You know? The thing about people who die by suicide,
Speaker 1: and we have these narratives um of the they're being
Speaker 1: cowards or or something like that. Unfortunately, and people who
Speaker 1: die by suicide don't necessarily want to die. We have
Speaker 1: to think of them as wanting to get away from
Speaker 1: overwhelming pain. That they have something that they have been
Speaker 1: struggling with and maybe they have been hiding it from
Speaker 1: the family and friends because they knew how the family
Speaker 1: would react. That gotten the messaging somehow they feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, everyone else in the family is doing great
Speaker 1: and I'm the I'm the weakest Lincoln. So I can't
Speaker 1: you know, reach out and they have to get out
Speaker 1: from under that pain. And I think we saw that,
Speaker 1: uh in the letter from you know, the cheerleader in Louisiana,
Speaker 1: you know, just talking about like I can't do this anymore. Um.
Speaker 1: And it seems like in a lot of ways she
Speaker 1: out like she was doing it on her own. Um.
Speaker 1: And so again, we don't know someone's inner turmoil. And
Speaker 1: that's what it is. It's it's this, it's this turmoil.
Speaker 1: They want to be here, they want to be present.
Speaker 1: They don't want to create conflict or pain for their
Speaker 1: loved ones, but they just don't see any other way. UM.
Speaker 1: And that that's and that when we can think more
Speaker 1: so about this being the narrative. And I've talked to
Speaker 1: people about this, you know, over the years, like wow,
Speaker 1: I never thought of it that way. And maybe if
Speaker 1: we do more of that, then will extend ourselves more.
Speaker 1: And I understand everyone is tired, like everyone is overwhelmed
Speaker 1: about something, you know, pick a day of the week,
Speaker 1: everyone is overwhelmed aby a thing. But when we have
Speaker 1: those moments where maybe we're not so overwhelmed. It can
Speaker 1: actually give us a little bit of a boost to
Speaker 1: reach out to someone else, you know, and it doesn't
Speaker 1: have to be you know, in our low conversation. Just
Speaker 1: send a text say hey, you just want you to
Speaker 1: know you were on my mind. I was thinking about you.
Speaker 1: Um the other thing there there's you know, there's so
Speaker 1: much a about this. I don't I don't I know
Speaker 1: that we don't realize in our society that as a whole,
Speaker 1: more people die by suicide than by homicide. And that's
Speaker 1: because of how it's addressed in the media. We think,
Speaker 1: you know, homicide is happening everywhere all the time. Suicide
Speaker 1: is happening more often than is homicide. So just you know,
Speaker 1: I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but we will
Speaker 1: say if there's thirty five or forty thousand homicide debts
Speaker 1: per year, it's more like fifty or fifty five thousand
Speaker 1: suicide debts per year. We just don't talk about it
Speaker 1: as much. Now in the black community, there are more
Speaker 1: homicide than there are suicides. But I'm suspicious about some
Speaker 1: of those numbers, um to be sure. But we also
Speaker 1: have to talk about we can we can talk about
Speaker 1: suicide as a something that has happened more so than
Speaker 1: something that has been committed, because yes, suicide actually used
Speaker 1: to be a criminal behavior, and so we talk about
Speaker 1: committing suicide because we historically thought of it as a crime.
Speaker 1: And so we're now shifting away from there is something
Speaker 1: going on for this individual, that suicide happened, they die,
Speaker 1: that that was the cause of death, but not necessarily
Speaker 1: that they committed um and act. And so I think
Speaker 1: is we continue to shift these conversations and shift these narratives,
Speaker 1: we will see more people coming forward. Well, we can't
Speaker 1: expect for someone who's in pain to be able to
Speaker 1: reach out for help. And that's why those of us
Speaker 1: in the community have to check on our strong friends
Speaker 1: and everybody else when we can't. Yes, yes, yes, for
Speaker 1: for someone who may be listening today, you know, we
Speaker 1: have um things to think about when it comes to
Speaker 1: checking on our strong friends, when it comes to reaching out. Um,
Speaker 1: what if we are the person who's hearing this, who's
Speaker 1: listening right now and thinking I've been dealing with passive
Speaker 1: suicidal ideation, I've been I don't know, I'm just feeling
Speaker 1: a little bit depressed. It's not it's not feeling like
Speaker 1: a normal bout of sadness, um or my thoughts are
Speaker 1: getting dark. What would you say directly to the person
Speaker 1: who's listening right now, who might be struggling and they
Speaker 1: feel like they have nowhere to turn or they have
Speaker 1: not quite broken those those um chains or the or
Speaker 1: let go of the burden of asking for help, or
Speaker 1: maybe they don't have the family, the friends, or the
Speaker 1: support system. Realistically, who would show up for them? What
Speaker 1: would you say to someone struggling right now? That's a
Speaker 1: that's a good question, and one of the things that
Speaker 1: we talk to people who are in potential crisis, you know,
Speaker 1: like things just aren't quite going right or going their way,
Speaker 1: that they do want to put a plan in place
Speaker 1: for themselves when the thoughts get extra dark, because what
Speaker 1: happens is that when those thoughts get dark, it can
Speaker 1: be hard to problem solve your way out of that.
Speaker 1: You know, people who are in crisis, you know, do
Speaker 1: have diminished problem solving capacity, and so what that ends
Speaker 1: up looking like could be a suicide attempt because they
Speaker 1: don't know there's another way, and the crisis is oftentimes
Speaker 1: you know, temporary you know, we say, like, you know,
Speaker 1: it'll be better tomorrow, Like it really will be better tomorrow,
Speaker 1: but you gotta get to tomorrow. And so for some folks,
Speaker 1: it really is doing some mindfulness activity, you know, mindfulness
Speaker 1: with the five senses, and you know, what are five
Speaker 1: things that I see? And what are four things that
Speaker 1: I hear in three things? And there's all kinds of
Speaker 1: YouTube videos. So creating a plan for yourself for the
Speaker 1: dark times. For some people, it really is a specific song,
Speaker 1: um or a playlist of songs. Some people need a
Speaker 1: three minute playlist. Some people could use a thirty minute playlist.
Speaker 1: Like create music because music is powerful that gets us
Speaker 1: out of the rut that we're in. Sometimes. You know,
Speaker 1: people just need a change of space or location. So shoot,
Speaker 1: if you're in the bedroom, Uh, go out on the
Speaker 1: balcony if there's a balcony, or go outside. You can't
Speaker 1: do that if there's a thousand degrees like it is
Speaker 1: in Houston sometimes. But what can you do to shift
Speaker 1: your space? Um, maybe you just need to go sit
Speaker 1: in the car and run the air conditioning for a
Speaker 1: few minutes. But put the plan in place so that
Speaker 1: those dark times happen. It doesn't become a moment of
Speaker 1: extra crisis. Um. So those are some of the things
Speaker 1: that you know that we talked to, you know, our
Speaker 1: clients and our patients about. And there are folks who
Speaker 1: do have a network. You know, maybe they can say, okay,
Speaker 1: here the people that I will call what I'm thinking
Speaker 1: about suicide? Like who are those people? Who are the
Speaker 1: people that I can call who aren't going to do
Speaker 1: well with me saying I have a mental health crisis,
Speaker 1: but they're good for a joke or maybe me listening
Speaker 1: to their problems will distract me from what's going on
Speaker 1: with me. It can be someone who drags us down.
Speaker 1: You know, we know who those folks are. When you
Speaker 1: talk to them, they got a sad word, you know,
Speaker 1: if you be that individual. Um, you know, maybe it
Speaker 1: is a podcast, you know, you know, Zuri is having
Speaker 1: a good time all the time. You know your podcast.
Speaker 1: You know, go listen to Zuri for just a few
Speaker 1: a few minutes. Um, you know. But but putting a
Speaker 1: plan in place that has at least four things on
Speaker 1: it to say, these are things that I'm going to
Speaker 1: try in these in these desperate in these desperate moments. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: for someone who may be on the receiving line of
Speaker 1: someone opening up, thank God and saying I'm in pain,
Speaker 1: I'm having dark thoughts, I'm considering suicide potentially. Um, can
Speaker 1: you break down, just really briefly, the A B c's
Speaker 1: that you mentioned in your book, how we show up
Speaker 1: for those in emotional pain. Yeah. You know people who
Speaker 1: are you know, in pain and feeling hopeless. They don't
Speaker 1: feel like anyone who's really hearing them, you know, and
Speaker 1: we want to be helpful, right, So someone struggling and
Speaker 1: we say, oh, you're gonna be fine or oh you'll
Speaker 1: get through this. Mm hmm, that's not as helpful as well,
Speaker 1: tell me more about what's going on. You know, I
Speaker 1: am here with you, and so I used the A
Speaker 1: B c s. It's in the first chapter of the
Speaker 1: book to to break this down for individuals that with
Speaker 1: the A assume that you're being present is being helpful.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who may not want
Speaker 1: to hear about suicide crisis because they think they don't
Speaker 1: know what to do. You don't have to do anything,
Speaker 1: but just you know, be aware that your presence means
Speaker 1: more than anything. And the B is in fact, to
Speaker 1: be present so you know, if someone comes to you
Speaker 1: and they're in crisis. You know, if you're in a
Speaker 1: car driving, say, you know what, let me let me
Speaker 1: pull over, um, so I can listen to what you're saying.
Speaker 1: Or Okay, I've got a few minutes, um, but I
Speaker 1: need to wrap up this one thing. Just give me
Speaker 1: thirty seconds. You know, I'll call you back and be
Speaker 1: there with them. And the sea has canceled the judgment.
Speaker 1: The judgment may not be intentional, but when it's you know,
Speaker 1: oh it's that's that's not that bad. You know, like
Speaker 1: what you're going through isn't that serious. Let me tell
Speaker 1: you about what I'm going through. Oh my goodness, that's
Speaker 1: not doing what we intend. We have to be able
Speaker 1: to listen non judgmentally, to hear the person out, you know,
Speaker 1: to hear their story because what that communicates to them
Speaker 1: is that they matter and more important than anything that
Speaker 1: we got going on. We're going to be present for
Speaker 1: them because they are most important in that moment in time. Okay,
Speaker 1: you have this idea of psychological fortitude that I want
Speaker 1: to wrap up with, but just really quickly, are there
Speaker 1: certain resources or tools that you would recommend people check out?
Speaker 1: If they're interested in learning more about mental health, crisis
Speaker 1: intervention services, suicide prevention. Well, you know, I I wrote
Speaker 1: the book primarily because of how we need to shift
Speaker 1: these conversations. And psychological fortitude is narrated throughout the book
Speaker 1: because when we think about mental health, somehow that that
Speaker 1: language has gotten hijacked and we think it means being crazy,
Speaker 1: but what it really means is that we are existing
Speaker 1: in a crazy world. Um, and we have to figure
Speaker 1: out ways to to navigate that. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: they're all sorts of resources. You know, we think about
Speaker 1: therapy for for black girls and for individuals who are
Speaker 1: trying to find a place to make sense of who
Speaker 1: they are. Um. You know, with mental health professionals who
Speaker 1: can kind of you know, relate. We don't assume that
Speaker 1: just because someone is black that they understand everything about
Speaker 1: the individual, but they would presumably be trained to be
Speaker 1: able to ask the questions that have the most impact
Speaker 1: on making shifter changes in the individuals in the individual's life.
Speaker 1: And I haven't said this yet, but sometimes when we
Speaker 1: just kind of sitting right down, the things that are
Speaker 1: upsetting us most, you know, the people who got on
Speaker 1: our nerves, the most uh, the circumstances that are driving
Speaker 1: us or we feel like are making us most insane.
Speaker 1: When we can sit and put those things on paper
Speaker 1: rather than replaying them in our minds what we call
Speaker 1: ruminating over these same circumstances, it can give us a
Speaker 1: different perspective. And I think that's what we need to
Speaker 1: be doing more of us is completely shifting our perspective
Speaker 1: around some of these conversations that have been happening, they
Speaker 1: haven't been so helpful so that we can get to
Speaker 1: a place where we're creating new solutions for our communities. Well,
Speaker 1: Dr Rita, you said you need so much more than
Speaker 1: mental health or well being in this era of describine
Speaker 1: nation and visibility and psychological warfare. You need psychological fortitude.
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna leave our audience with the tease, the
Speaker 1: tease of that that so true and so beautifully stated sentence.
Speaker 1: So if you want to understand more about what psychological
Speaker 1: fortitude is, if you want um the keys that Dr
Speaker 1: Rita is offering up, her book is a great place
Speaker 1: to start. One more time, Dr Rita, the title of
Speaker 1: the book and where we can find it. So the
Speaker 1: book is the unapologetic guide to black mental health. It's
Speaker 1: everywhere that folks buy books. Folks can go to Bars
Speaker 1: and Noble and probably pick it up off the shelf
Speaker 1: even today, but also on my website, Dr Rita Walker
Speaker 1: dot com. Rita's spelled a little bit differently because that's
Speaker 1: how we do, and Rita is r H E E
Speaker 1: D as in diamond A. All right, Dr Rita, thank
Speaker 1: you so so so much for your expertise, your knowledge,
Speaker 1: your spirit, your energy is just so beautiful. It's it's contagious.
Speaker 1: These are some heavy conversations and heavy topics, but the
Speaker 1: way that you express us and break it all down,
Speaker 1: it is relatable and accessible and that's so important these
Speaker 1: days as we try to lift that veil and remove
Speaker 1: that stigma. So thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1: Thank you, it's been great to be with you. Thank
Speaker 1: you again, Dr Rita for joining me on Hot Happy
Speaker 1: Mess this week. I so so so so appreciated her time,
Speaker 1: our conversation, and again for all of the resources that
Speaker 1: were mentioned. You can head over to Hot Happy Mess
Speaker 1: dot com. It's where we share all of the show
Speaker 1: notes and it's also where you can submit your story
Speaker 1: as a real woman um or as a WTF confession
Speaker 1: or hashtag asked Sorry, if you want to ask me
Speaker 1: some questions and I'll give some advice. I have no
Speaker 1: promises that it will be good advice, but it'll be advice. Okay,
Speaker 1: So stay tuned for more episodes. They're coming every Wednesday.
Speaker 1: So much in store. You're gonna love it. What was
Speaker 1: that bend on the R I don't know. We've got
Speaker 1: a lot coming up that are going to give you
Speaker 1: the tools you need to create balance, established boundaries, manifest happiness,
Speaker 1: find peace, and cultivate relationships with others and most importantly yourself. Okay,
Speaker 1: it's all comment. Every Wednesday, new episodes of How Happy
Speaker 1: Mess Baby, So don't forget to tell a friend, share
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Speaker 1: You talk, I love to talk back and I'll talk
Speaker 1: to you next Wednesday. Bye,