Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, we're here with the classic episode. It's just
Speaker 1: me for the moment for reasons. I'm sure you guys
Speaker 1: understand that the three of us do strange things sometimes,
Speaker 1: and you know the guys are out there doing their thing.
Speaker 1: So I just want to let you know about this episode.
Speaker 1: This one is rough. I'm not gonna lie. Just be
Speaker 1: aware of what you're going into. It's about the Catholic Church,
Speaker 1: it's about child abuse, and it's about the history of it.
Speaker 1: Tough episode to make back in when we made it,
Speaker 1: and it's gonna be tough to listen to it again now.
Speaker 1: But hey, it's it's important, so I'm glad we're diving
Speaker 1: in together. Let's do that now. And uh guys, hey,
Speaker 1: past guys take it away from UFOs to psychic powers
Speaker 1: and government conspiracies. History is riddled with unexplained events. You
Speaker 1: can turn back now or learn the stuff they don't
Speaker 1: want you to know. Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel, and they
Speaker 1: call me Ben. You are you the most important part
Speaker 1: of the show, which makes it stuff they don't want
Speaker 1: you to know. So to establish this from from the jump,
Speaker 1: as they say, uh, I am not Catholic. I am
Speaker 1: not Catholic, nor am I so so far as I know,
Speaker 1: I'm not Catholic. However, we are going to talk about
Speaker 1: something that examine and explore something that concerns the Catholic Church.
Speaker 1: For a long time on this show, we have had,
Speaker 1: believe it or not, a couple of principles, and one
Speaker 1: of the principles is that we're never going to uh
Speaker 1: denigrate someone's personal religious beliefs. Believe what you want, you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's your business. It's a personal thing. Uh. And
Speaker 1: if you don't leave in anything, than of course that's
Speaker 1: up to you as well. So this podcast, despite concerning
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, is not in any way about the
Speaker 1: religious beliefs or the values or the practices of the
Speaker 1: Church or Christianity in general. Uh and so on and
Speaker 1: so on. But beliefs, as we have found throughout making
Speaker 1: the show, are different from facts. Yes, right, Yes, that's
Speaker 1: a good point, Matt, Yeah, beliefs are different from facts.
Speaker 1: This is more about facts. This is about an active
Speaker 1: conspiracy in to be honest with you, a series of
Speaker 1: numerous conspiracies, not theories, not rumors, not scuttle but proven
Speaker 1: instances of horrific crime. So one thing, we promise you
Speaker 1: we are not going to be extremely graphic when covering
Speaker 1: this topic because it is an extremely sensitive one. We
Speaker 1: do want to warn you in advance though, this episode
Speaker 1: will contain some disturbing content just because of what we're
Speaker 1: going to be talking about. So I guess we should
Speaker 1: get into it. Um, Shall we have the facts? Ben? Yes,
Speaker 1: but of course no. Let's start at the very beginning
Speaker 1: with the Catholic Church. You've probably already heard this, ladies
Speaker 1: and gentlemen. According to the Catholic Church, its history dates
Speaker 1: back to the first century a d. When Jesus Christ
Speaker 1: made his disciple Peter, the rock upon which the church
Speaker 1: would be founded. All the other Christian denominations, by a
Speaker 1: large originate from Catholicism, and the Catholic Church has done
Speaker 1: a lot of good in the world's preserved immensely valuable knowledge,
Speaker 1: it is at times promoted literacy uh and preserved great
Speaker 1: works of art. But also there are schools involved of
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, so many charities, so many with all
Speaker 1: of the different organizations that exist within the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: itself or with affiliated or to but in the world
Speaker 1: of Christian belief systems. Catholicism is ancient, which the most
Speaker 1: fair way to say it is that there has there's
Speaker 1: just a much larger passage of time here, which means
Speaker 1: there are many more opportunities for something messed up to occur.
Speaker 1: And over the past centuries, Catholicism has been associated with,
Speaker 1: or implicated in, or directly responsible for numerous atrocities. We
Speaker 1: have just a few examples. Yeah, some of those include
Speaker 1: the Crusades, Yes, all out war that rages across the
Speaker 1: globe because of differing religious beliefs, different gods. It's one
Speaker 1: of those things that we still see today with some
Speaker 1: of the Islamic terrorist activities and the idea of holy war.
Speaker 1: You know, that's this is a good example from history
Speaker 1: of that. Um. We also have the persecution of heretics. Sure,
Speaker 1: basically nonbelievers, right, m Yeah, the it could be nonbelievers,
Speaker 1: it could believe, be a group of people who believe
Speaker 1: in something different that's not official canon. This persecution would
Speaker 1: also include, of course blasphemers, you know, witch hunts, inquisitions
Speaker 1: a postdates. Yes, and that kind of persecution wasn't just
Speaker 1: restricted to heretics, right. He also had anti Semitism and
Speaker 1: um good. Another example of persecution of heretics would be
Speaker 1: something like the Spanish Inquisition, where people were tortured and
Speaker 1: ultimately killed for their beliefs. And you know, we could
Speaker 1: do it occurs to me we could do entire episodes
Speaker 1: on crusades and witch hunts in the Spanish Inquisition, or
Speaker 1: just heretics or just heretics heretic thought. One person's heretic
Speaker 1: is another reformer, you know, or like starting a new religion.
Speaker 1: In fact, if you guys know the movie The Witch
Speaker 1: is a big fan of It starts with the father
Speaker 1: patriarch of the film being exiled from his community, which
Speaker 1: is in a settlement in the New World or whatever.
Speaker 1: And it's because he takes a different approach to his
Speaker 1: religious belief has never really gone into specifically, but it's
Speaker 1: enough that the higher ups in the church deemed him
Speaker 1: to be a heretic or an apostate, and they exile
Speaker 1: him and his family out into the wilderness. Right and
Speaker 1: in in this time and space, I guess where we
Speaker 1: are now. It may seem strange, or these may seem
Speaker 1: like relatively minor disagreements in dogma or in the details
Speaker 1: of something but in those days, uh, descent of any
Speaker 1: sort was it was tremendously controversial. Also in the past,
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church assisted with some horrific colonization, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: subjugation of native peoples throughout the world. Uh, And it
Speaker 1: is on record at least some officials in the Catholic
Speaker 1: Church aiding and abetting Nazis and Fascists. Now before it
Speaker 1: sounds like we're doing some kind of hit piece, because
Speaker 1: we are listing a lot of terrible things that occurred
Speaker 1: over a history of thousands of years. Yeah, you go
Speaker 1: back to the eleventh century when a lot of the
Speaker 1: crusades were happening, in the sixteenth century, then you go
Speaker 1: further further back to some of the more heretical stuff
Speaker 1: that occurred the prosecution, and then you move forward and
Speaker 1: it happened to So yeah, there's just so much time,
Speaker 1: and also there's so many people involved. So it's just
Speaker 1: like when we're looking at any other large organization. You know, not,
Speaker 1: of course, not everybody who works for a fed old
Speaker 1: government is a bad person. You will hear in the
Speaker 1: news about bad people who get caught doing something criminal
Speaker 1: or in many cases get away with doing something criminal. Uh,
Speaker 1: same deal with the banks, same deal with banks. Not
Speaker 1: everyone who's a teller. You know, people are widely varied,
Speaker 1: and aside from a few very common interests like breathing
Speaker 1: and eating and staying alive, people do very different things,
Speaker 1: even if they're ostensibly on the same team. And the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church at present has many, many, many, many many adherents.
Speaker 1: According to a twenty sixteen study, roughly one point to
Speaker 1: seven two billion people identified as Catholic in ten And
Speaker 1: there are how many billion people seven point something billion
Speaker 1: people on the globe right now. Yeah, that numbers about
Speaker 1: seventeen percent of the overall population of the world. And
Speaker 1: that yeah, and the popular to the world is still growing.
Speaker 1: It's going to be different by the time this shows over.
Speaker 1: A lot of Catholics seven point four. By the way,
Speaker 1: Global Park got the largest concentration of Catholics in Brazil, Mexico,
Speaker 1: the Philippines, the United States of course, that are also
Speaker 1: the wealthiest of the Catholics. It's the wealthiest arm of
Speaker 1: the church um and also Italy, and Italy makes sense
Speaker 1: to be on there, you know, Philippines being on that
Speaker 1: list was surprising to me. Ben, you know, it's an
Speaker 1: interesting story, and a lot of people in the West
Speaker 1: aren't too aware of the colonization of the Philippines and
Speaker 1: just how long it lasted in the countries that participate
Speaker 1: in it, but do largely do impart to the Spanish
Speaker 1: occupation and colonization in the Philippines. Uh. It is the
Speaker 1: largest Catholic country in that part of the world. And
Speaker 1: when we talk about the Catholic Church, Okay, we've talked
Speaker 1: about how strong it is in terms of people, in
Speaker 1: terms of people power, population, right, they have a lot
Speaker 1: of people. But the Catholic Church also has a lot
Speaker 1: of money dollars euros. There's probably a stash of bend
Speaker 1: bucks in there somewhere. Uh. Their financial statistics are very
Speaker 1: very interesting. So yeah, if you think about the number,
Speaker 1: that number of people donating money every year, perhaps every
Speaker 1: week or just every month, however you do it personally,
Speaker 1: that amount of money going to a church over that
Speaker 1: time span, Holy mackerel, that's uh Scrooge McDuck level of
Speaker 1: wealth right there. Sorry, I'm not trying to I know
Speaker 1: that's silly, but I mean, really it's hard to fathom
Speaker 1: the amount of money that is cycled through. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I could picture of some you know, high level um
Speaker 1: Catholic clergy swimming around and huge vaults of gold coins.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's not something you would want to do. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's weird, yet it's it's very dangerous to
Speaker 1: try that. Oh yeah, we thought too much about swimming
Speaker 1: around in a pile of coins, which I would I
Speaker 1: would never do, just because touching that much metal would
Speaker 1: be weird. But um, but we're right at some we
Speaker 1: all we do know that people are ultimately fallible, uh,
Speaker 1: no matter what your position is in the world. So
Speaker 1: there is a widely documented history of very corrupt people
Speaker 1: being church officials. And did one swim through money? You
Speaker 1: know what? Honestly, no, I don't know. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: say definitely not. I'm not going to say I do know,
Speaker 1: But I wouldn't be as surprised as I wish I
Speaker 1: would be. That's probably the best way to say it.
Speaker 1: It scares me. Whenever you're prized, Ben, really it really
Speaker 1: means something serious going down. Did you see me lose
Speaker 1: lose my mind? We're off air because I found out
Speaker 1: it was National Sandwich Day. Well, you're very you're very
Speaker 1: passionate about sandwiches. A man's gotta have a code. Hey,
Speaker 1: and the Cubs just won the World Series. You guys,
Speaker 1: that's that's surprised to me. It's surprised a lot of
Speaker 1: people that you're you're gambling problem. Well, it's not a problem.
Speaker 1: You're really good at it. Yeah. Ever since our episode
Speaker 1: on sports Fixing, and as soon as they hit game six,
Speaker 1: I went, oh, you guys, what is going on here?
Speaker 1: Then they were like, oh, we gotta go to game seven,
Speaker 1: and all the alarms were going off. I was like,
Speaker 1: I need to get Brian Towey on the phone right
Speaker 1: now and figure out who I need to bet on. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you've made some powerful friends and powerful enemies with your
Speaker 1: newfound role as as a gambling tiger. And the unfortunate
Speaker 1: news that Nolan I have for you, Matt is, no
Speaker 1: matter how successful you become a gambling you will probably
Speaker 1: never have at as much money as the Catholic Church.
Speaker 1: Well that's not that's not what the guy told me.
Speaker 1: So I don't know. I'm gonna take his word for
Speaker 1: it for now, but I appreciate it, which is certainly
Speaker 1: something to aspire it to. Because, as we've discussed already,
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church does have quite a bit of money.
Speaker 1: We found this quote from Wired magazine that Pope Francis
Speaker 1: is not just the spiritual leader of one of the
Speaker 1: world's major religions, he's also the head of what's probably
Speaker 1: the wealthiest institution in the entire world. And that sounds
Speaker 1: like a big claim, But we have to consider again
Speaker 1: this is this is an ancient organization. The time span
Speaker 1: involved alone gave it more opportunities to accumulate wealth, and
Speaker 1: we don't actually know how financially powerful this institution is.
Speaker 1: It's ginormous, for sure, but because it's not subject to
Speaker 1: some of the same accounting and disclosure rules that would
Speaker 1: apply to other, you know, other institutions, the best we
Speaker 1: can do is make gues estimates. So our best guests
Speaker 1: for a look at the Maybe the annual spending or
Speaker 1: budget of the Catholic Church comes from the economist, and
Speaker 1: the economist breaks it down into several categories. We've got
Speaker 1: healthcare coming first, with ninety eight point six billion dollars
Speaker 1: reportedly spent by the members of the Catholic Health Association
Speaker 1: of the United States. Then we have education. Um there's
Speaker 1: a lot of publicly available operating budgets that um, they
Speaker 1: mind in order to get some of these figures of
Speaker 1: the two forty four Catholic colleges and universities that were available, um,
Speaker 1: they added up to a forty eight point eight billion
Speaker 1: dollars in parish disbursements. Then we have charities which use
Speaker 1: the total annual budget of Catholic Charity is USA and
Speaker 1: that was four point seven billion. Other figures included the
Speaker 1: annual budgets of other national religious organizations that are under
Speaker 1: the direction of the Catholic Church at some level, um,
Speaker 1: and that added up to eight point five billion. And
Speaker 1: what were some of those who want to mention them specifically, Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's the Knights of Columbus, the Army's excuse me, the
Speaker 1: arms of various religious orders like Jesuits, Dominicans, Dominicans, Franciscan's
Speaker 1: Opus Day of course. And then and then there's a
Speaker 1: there's another eleven billion from the Center for the Applied
Speaker 1: Research on the Apostle at Georgetown University. And this all
Speaker 1: adds up to an estimated budget of one and seventy
Speaker 1: billion dollars a hundred and seventy billion dollars in twelve
Speaker 1: And honestly, ladies, and gentlemen, that's that's a guesta min
Speaker 1: That's probably not the whole picture, just because we don't know.
Speaker 1: So why are we talking about money? Why is this
Speaker 1: important for the purposes of this episode. Well, we discussed
Speaker 1: before on this show that money is the closest thing
Speaker 1: you can get in this world currently to having a superpower, right, Ben,
Speaker 1: that's your that's a quote from you. I remember when
Speaker 1: we were we were talking about what superpowers you we
Speaker 1: would all have, and you're just like, all the money,
Speaker 1: because then you could do literally anything in this world.
Speaker 1: That's that's interesting. Uh A wonder with the growth of technology,
Speaker 1: you could eventually just buy superpowers, right, Crispers out now,
Speaker 1: So maybe you could make it where when you do
Speaker 1: that cash move, you know, or you make it ready
Speaker 1: to your hands together, that it actually produced hundred dollar
Speaker 1: bills and they just shoot at people. That'd be pretty sweet.
Speaker 1: That would be great until uh, until it's totally messed
Speaker 1: up the world's currency market, or someone would cut my
Speaker 1: hands off and take them and then just put them
Speaker 1: on a machine that just continually did that. Yes, I
Speaker 1: went to a dark place. But the but the point
Speaker 1: of this is that when you have an organization with
Speaker 1: this kind of power that can be welld for one
Speaker 1: thing or another. Having them support or oppose something on
Speaker 1: a global scale matters, and they can be welled. Welled Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean because wielded. I just like the that's good. No,
Speaker 1: it's it's got gravitas, it does. It sounds like you're
Speaker 1: strolling the strolling the planks in the n Oxford Theater.
Speaker 1: I've been watching too much Westworld and I've got Ford
Speaker 1: Uh Anthony Hopkins character in my head at all times,
Speaker 1: his syllable. Yeah. Now, we're getting in the weeds here, guys.
Speaker 1: But it's true. Money equals power, and it affords certain
Speaker 1: individuals that control it what's let's call it privileges, shall
Speaker 1: we say? Sure? Yeah, having the support or opposition of something,
Speaker 1: uh can can make a tremendous difference in world affairs.
Speaker 1: On a side note, I know we're in the weeds here,
Speaker 1: but man, Vatican City is weird. Would you guys like
Speaker 1: to hear some fun facts about Vatican City? Yes? Oh? Great, good,
Speaker 1: because because I don't know what I would do if
Speaker 1: you guys said no. Uh. It is the only place
Speaker 1: in the world where the A T. M s are
Speaker 1: in latinsally neat. Uh. It also has the world's highest
Speaker 1: crime rate, proportionally one point five crimes per citizen. That's
Speaker 1: largely in effect of the small population. These aren't necessarily
Speaker 1: violent crimes. These are like, you know, pickpockets and thefts
Speaker 1: and stuff. But until fairly recently, the age of consent
Speaker 1: in Vatican City was technically twelve years old. Hamonda what
Speaker 1: HAMMONA yes, and it was. It's since been raised to eighteen.
Speaker 1: Uh that that last fact is not doesn't really qualify
Speaker 1: as a fun fact. But I am glad that they
Speaker 1: have raised their age of consent. Uh. And we know
Speaker 1: that even though we live in an increasingly secular world,
Speaker 1: many many, many people, many of whom are not even Catholic,
Speaker 1: are very protective of the dignity of the Catholic Church
Speaker 1: and especially the dignity of the Pope. Which brings us
Speaker 1: to an interesting episode in our own lifetimes. So in October,
Speaker 1: and on the third to be precise, uh, set O'Connor
Speaker 1: performed on Saturday Night Live. It was the Tim Robbins episode.
Speaker 1: I actually remember this. I was a wee boy at
Speaker 1: the time when it happened, but uh, I my parents
Speaker 1: always watched that show and I they would talk to
Speaker 1: me about it. Um. But anyway, she performed war by
Speaker 1: Bob Marley. Uh. She did it alone on stage, did acapella,
Speaker 1: and during rehearsals she was going to tear up a
Speaker 1: picture of I think a child like a wild who
Speaker 1: had been abused. Essentially, the idea is that this child
Speaker 1: is starving. Um and there I forget exactly everything that
Speaker 1: was happening around it, but it made sense to the
Speaker 1: producers of Center It Live that she would do that,
Speaker 1: and that was the plan. Well, when they went to live,
Speaker 1: she pulled out a picture of the Pope and she
Speaker 1: said she tore it up and she said fight the
Speaker 1: real enemy. And the producers, the audience, Uh, you know
Speaker 1: it's happening live in downtown New York. Everyone was aghast. Yeah,
Speaker 1: to say the least. Um, I mean everyone was just stunned. Essentially,
Speaker 1: that's a That's what my understanding of it was. Because
Speaker 1: it's not something you do. There's a massive backlash. People
Speaker 1: in bonkers in a very very bad way. And I
Speaker 1: can only imagine the amount of uh phone calls mail
Speaker 1: that Saturday Night Live received about that and the network
Speaker 1: that owns them up by way, of apology. When Joe
Speaker 1: Pesci host is Saturday Night Live, he had the photograph
Speaker 1: taped back together, presented it on air, wild applause from people,
Speaker 1: and then uh said, you know, he would have I
Speaker 1: can't remember his exact phrase. I don't He said he
Speaker 1: would grab her by the eyebrows. That's what it was.
Speaker 1: He was. He was acting like he was gonna grab
Speaker 1: her by the hair, like pretending by the eyebrows. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And uh, Madonna rediscovered her own Catholicism at the time. Yep.
Speaker 1: And again, I'm not going to question the sincerity of
Speaker 1: someone's beliefs. But maybe he's seenna like a prayer video.
Speaker 1: I mean, she's clearly quite religious. Oh man. Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1: I've never met Madonna. But Madonna, if you're listening, um,
Speaker 1: you come on this show, yes please. But what ultimately
Speaker 1: what we're seeing here is people we're so upset about
Speaker 1: this happening, so instantly upset. Yeah, yes, And why why
Speaker 1: were they instantly upset? And why would she do this?
Speaker 1: That was the question on everyone's mind at the time.
Speaker 1: And we have an answer to that. Right after a
Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back with the answer
Speaker 1: that we have mentioned at the top of the show,
Speaker 1: uh sanade O'Connor was not just being some sort of
Speaker 1: precious performance artist. Instead, she was remarking, as she said
Speaker 1: in later interviews on the hushed up abuse occurring in
Speaker 1: various parts of the Catholic Church around the world and
Speaker 1: various institutions, she herself was a victim of abuse, and
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church, of course, for their part, has never
Speaker 1: officially condoned any abuse in its recent history. So you know,
Speaker 1: of course in the distant past they would condone inquisition
Speaker 1: trials or torture of native people's and so on. But
Speaker 1: the modern Catholic Church is not, you know, is in
Speaker 1: no way um pro that sort of monstrous stuff. Absolutely not. However,
Speaker 1: not only has there been a proven epidemic of child
Speaker 1: abuse within the within the Catholic Church where we're talking
Speaker 1: in children of all ages, primarily boys, but there's also
Speaker 1: no telling how far back this abuse has gone, where
Speaker 1: it where it originated, or to what degree it occurred,
Speaker 1: or how often it occurs today right now as we're
Speaker 1: making this podcast, right many cases have been actively covered
Speaker 1: up or ignored, with higher ups in the church relocating
Speaker 1: abusive priest rather than having them prosecuted or invested, investigated
Speaker 1: or prosecuted in a court of law. In the United States,
Speaker 1: this phenomenon gained attention in the mid eighties, and fellow
Speaker 1: named father Gilbert Gothe of Lafayette, Louisiana, pled guilty to
Speaker 1: abusing at least eleven boys over his time in the area.
Speaker 1: There's a piece here from Minnesota Public Radio. It goes
Speaker 1: into detail about this and villainous. I just want to
Speaker 1: warn you before you hear this, ladies and gentlemen. The
Speaker 1: priest took boys on camping trips and invited them for
Speaker 1: sleepovers in the rectory. He claimed old practices for altar
Speaker 1: boys every day at six am and encouraged parents to
Speaker 1: let their boys spend the night. His sexual appetite was uncontrollable.
Speaker 1: He put bars on the windows of a rectory. He
Speaker 1: kept a gun by the side of his bed, and
Speaker 1: when children refused to submit, he threatened to use it.
Speaker 1: And then it goes in detail about what he forced
Speaker 1: these kids to do with him to each other, and
Speaker 1: how he documented it on a polaroid camera, and how
Speaker 1: this went on for more than a decade. He remained
Speaker 1: in the ministry even when his bishop learned he had
Speaker 1: abused one boy and licked the faces of two others.
Speaker 1: After the second complaint, the bishop transferred him to a
Speaker 1: small church in the isolated town of Henry, Louisiana, and
Speaker 1: finally three a boy told his father, Wayne Sagrera about this.
Speaker 1: Sagrera reported it to the diocese. The bishop sent the
Speaker 1: father away for psychological treatment and offered nine families confidential
Speaker 1: settlements of more than four million dollars. The reason we
Speaker 1: know about this is because one family refused to settle
Speaker 1: and they went public, and then the American public woke
Speaker 1: up to first that you know, close community, and then
Speaker 1: the rest of the US became more aware of this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he ended up going getting charged with several cases, got
Speaker 1: a sentence of twenty years, then he got out in
Speaker 1: nine years for good behavior. Uh. Then he went back
Speaker 1: for another case of abuse for a few more years
Speaker 1: than was released again. Um, this is an interesting, messed
Speaker 1: up case. If you want to learn more about it,
Speaker 1: feel free. I would not recommend it, but go for it. So.
Speaker 1: Documentation from the time also showed that the church was
Speaker 1: supposedly concerned of a possible quote domino effect occurring, and
Speaker 1: Reverend Thomas Doyle, who was a cannon lawyer, wondered how
Speaker 1: far the scandal went, just you know, part of the
Speaker 1: question that we're asking today, UM. Was this an isolated case?
Speaker 1: Was it more widespread? Eventually he became more and more
Speaker 1: concerned the resulting revelations could in fact bring down the
Speaker 1: Catholic Church in the United States, and he teamed up
Speaker 1: with Father Gothe's defense lawyer of filling him, Ray Mouton,
Speaker 1: and they created a confidential report and was confidential at
Speaker 1: the time, called the Problem of Sexual Molestation by Roman
Speaker 1: Catholic Allergy. It warned that hundreds of priests might be
Speaker 1: abusing children and that the lawsuits and settlements could cost
Speaker 1: the US Catholic Church a billion dollars in ten years. Today,
Speaker 1: this formerly confidential document is available online. If you google
Speaker 1: the title you will find it. So they worked on this,
Speaker 1: they presented it to the UM, to the church authorities,
Speaker 1: and apparently it was ignored. In fact, Doyle believes his
Speaker 1: career was ruined because of his push for the church
Speaker 1: to confront the brewing abuse scandals. So let's talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about the percentage of people that are that
Speaker 1: would be doing this stuff. A survey of the ten
Speaker 1: largest US Diocese found two hundred and thirty four priests
Speaker 1: from a total of twenty five thousand, six hundred and
Speaker 1: sixteen in those dioceses have had allegations of sexual abuse
Speaker 1: made against them in the last fifty years. The report
Speaker 1: doesn't say how many of these were proven versus how
Speaker 1: many were allegations. Uh, so we do know a couple
Speaker 1: of things. This means that it's by no means, again,
Speaker 1: something involving every member of the church. Nor is it
Speaker 1: in any way in decaying that every clergy member even
Speaker 1: knew about the situation. Like, it's completely possible that people
Speaker 1: just weren't in in a situation where they saw that
Speaker 1: kind of behavior from a clergy member. Um. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: that's what all like. That is a small percentage of
Speaker 1: the priests, and you know, the vast majority of the
Speaker 1: vast majority, whether it's Christianity, whether it's Buddhism, regardless of
Speaker 1: the religion, the vast majority of people who choose to
Speaker 1: dedicate their life to religious contemplation or religious service are
Speaker 1: obviously kinder people in many ways than the average bear,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, But than the average Barrenstein. Um,
Speaker 1: I was trying to do a Mandela that joke, and
Speaker 1: I just don't think it worked. You know, you did?
Speaker 1: You did it? Is it? Barrenstein? I don't even know anymore. So.
Speaker 1: The next question, and one that people have spent a
Speaker 1: lot of time exploring, is what what causes this phenomenon?
Speaker 1: Because it's real, It's apparently been something that happens in
Speaker 1: multiple countries, multiple situations, multiple places, multiple socioeconomic backgrounds. So
Speaker 1: what what's the cause? Well, according to Laurie Goodstein, who
Speaker 1: wrote for The New York Times, that there are several
Speaker 1: contributing factors. And the first one is that it's just
Speaker 1: a matter of sheer numbers. Catholics make up about a
Speaker 1: quarter of the U S population, like we talked about earlier,
Speaker 1: through the largest single religious denomination that exists. And second,
Speaker 1: the church keeps extensive documentation, meaning they're gonna have or
Speaker 1: at least they're more likely to have some kind of
Speaker 1: paper trail that you can follow. Yeah, And third, Goodstein
Speaker 1: believes factors involving the nature of the priesthood itself may
Speaker 1: actually contribute to this abuse epidemic. And within this one,
Speaker 1: you you have to know that priests have this exalted position,
Speaker 1: there is this uh, this thing called then you might
Speaker 1: have to say this for me, but I'm gonna say
Speaker 1: it in persona CHRISTI. Essentially the argument being that for
Speaker 1: true believers, this is one of the ultimate authority figures,
Speaker 1: This is your direct line to God, essentially allowing for
Speaker 1: the potential for some of these folks to develop a
Speaker 1: bit of a God complex perhaps or abuse that power
Speaker 1: in some former enos in terms of seeing themselves as
Speaker 1: an ultimate you know, figure of authority and twisting that
Speaker 1: in a very unhealthy way, which leads us to the
Speaker 1: next point. I think I don't even think it's seeing
Speaker 1: themselves in that way. I think it's knowing that the
Speaker 1: other person sees you in that way. Well, imagine if
Speaker 1: you're if you're a child and there is some religious
Speaker 1: authority figure who wants to make you do something, whether
Speaker 1: it's whether it's some sort of abuse, or whether it's
Speaker 1: something as simple as like, I don't know, steal, stealing
Speaker 1: of zero or whatever, and they say, well, you don't
Speaker 1: want to go to hell, do you? Uh, that's my
Speaker 1: favorite sandwich and that good and go to heaven, et cetera.
Speaker 1: So there's a very there is a very unequal power
Speaker 1: ratio there or authority ratio, and unfortunately certain um diseased
Speaker 1: individuals use that um. Good Stone also points out that
Speaker 1: there are celibacy requirements and that the priesthood is all male,
Speaker 1: and some of her colleagues who have looked into this
Speaker 1: have cited those two things in particular as factors, which
Speaker 1: I think is understandable that that would contribute to something.
Speaker 1: But you know, we also have to note, as she does,
Speaker 1: that this sort of abuse occurs in institutions that have
Speaker 1: married clergy, and it happens in other religions, and it
Speaker 1: happens in just non religious family structures. It's a very
Speaker 1: very different lifestyle, you know, UM. And you're also you
Speaker 1: are in a position of authority in that kind of service,
Speaker 1: but you're also answerable to this gigantic organizational hierarchy, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. You're very much living within a system.
Speaker 1: And living within a system is not a bad thing.
Speaker 1: Everybody lives in some sort of system. The most anarchist
Speaker 1: person alive, if you're listening right now, you live in
Speaker 1: an ecosystem and like the laws of gravity still govern you.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, man, no, man, no, don't believe it. So
Speaker 1: there's another thing. So these are these are factors that
Speaker 1: are pretty strong factors, I would argue, UM, and I
Speaker 1: know that good Steam doesn't completely agree with all of those,
Speaker 1: especially when it talks about the structure lending itself to it.
Speaker 1: But we UM, we do know that regardless of the cause,
Speaker 1: there have been difficulties and prosecuting these events. I think
Speaker 1: before we get into this final wrap up, we should
Speaker 1: have one more quick sponsor break. So, since some of
Speaker 1: the events come to light many years decades, even after
Speaker 1: investigators in different countries found statute limitations had passed, meaning
Speaker 1: that cases were not prosecutable, someone comes forward in the
Speaker 1: nine nineties about something that happened in the fifties. UM
Speaker 1: needs may differ by country, But then sometimes the offender
Speaker 1: has passed away or is UM maybe senile or simply untouchable. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because we're talking about fear. Fear first off, as a child,
Speaker 1: if you're being abused, UM, fear of an organization, fear
Speaker 1: of God even comes into play when we when you're
Speaker 1: dealing with this kind of abuse, and it's a tremendously
Speaker 1: I'm only speaking from you know what I believe it
Speaker 1: is like. But I can imagine there would be one
Speaker 1: of the hardest things ever to do in your entire
Speaker 1: life to come forward and admit that something like this
Speaker 1: has happened to you. Absolutely, And another factor that goes
Speaker 1: here is that the Catholic Church, for its part, has
Speaker 1: made several public statements that it is addressing this phenomenon.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and two, the United States Conference of
Speaker 1: Catholic Bishops initiated strict new guidelines or zero tolerance guidelines
Speaker 1: for the protection of children and youth in Catholic institutions
Speaker 1: across the country. Then in two thousand nine, church officials
Speaker 1: noted that abuse occurs in other religions and institutions and
Speaker 1: indicated that this could be seen as some kind of
Speaker 1: disproportionate focus on the Catholic Church itself, uh in instead
Speaker 1: of looking at it as a whole in either religious
Speaker 1: organizations or organizations worldwide. Right right. And then uh, there's
Speaker 1: something that you talked about earlier off air met the
Speaker 1: nick Lellan Commission. Yeah, that was that was in Scotland.
Speaker 1: It occurred in Scotland with the Catholic Church there. There
Speaker 1: was a report that was published on August eighteen and
Speaker 1: it was again looking at these like what policies should
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church enact to ensure that children are protected.
Speaker 1: That's what it was looking at. However, it didn't go
Speaker 1: into any specifics of abusers or where abuse was occurring,
Speaker 1: or how the Catholic Church responded to it. It it
Speaker 1: it was looked at by critics as being I think
Speaker 1: they called it fluffy, a fluffy report, and it just
Speaker 1: made everything, you know, it was like a um let's
Speaker 1: let's discuss it, let's say that there's wrongdoing, but there
Speaker 1: are no real answers here on how to protect children
Speaker 1: in the future. Still, the church has officially declared it
Speaker 1: will take action with the UM like against these abusers
Speaker 1: of Pope Francis in September famously in one of his
Speaker 1: speeches saying that all responsible will be held accountable. And
Speaker 1: you know, critics of the the system and the organization
Speaker 1: and the institution are obviously going to say that they
Speaker 1: feel that is you know, a bunch of pr spin essentially.
Speaker 1: But other people, especially many, many many people not just Catholics,
Speaker 1: but secular people are people from different religions, will say, well,
Speaker 1: this is a very very very very very large organization
Speaker 1: and they're hunting a small number of people. But again,
Speaker 1: it is an inarguable fact that more than one time,
Speaker 1: more than one time higher up authorities got reports of
Speaker 1: abuse and just relocated the offender. Yes, and it goes
Speaker 1: all the way up to the Pope. In some instances
Speaker 1: there were newer reports coming out that the previous pope
Speaker 1: Pope or Ratzinger is his actual name, but it was
Speaker 1: Pope benedict Um that he was aware and attempting to
Speaker 1: to like root out some of these people. But also
Speaker 1: alternate reports that were saying that he may have been
Speaker 1: involved with some of this stuff. And then the same
Speaker 1: with Pope John Paul the second of like how much
Speaker 1: did he know? And you can refine. You can find
Speaker 1: reports on NBC, you can find reports on any news organization.
Speaker 1: Amount to mention the Boston Globe Spotlight. Yes, that became
Speaker 1: a movie, became a very well regarded film, and these
Speaker 1: investigative journalists uncovered, um, I believe more than a hundred
Speaker 1: and thirty crimes, more than a hundred and thirty instances
Speaker 1: of childhood abuse since the nineteen nineties that were essentially
Speaker 1: cover it up quite a way is up the chain. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that goes I think those reports came out around
Speaker 1: two thousand two and that led to some resignations in Boston,
Speaker 1: right it did. Uh. You know, that is one example
Speaker 1: of what investigative journalism can do. And that's one thing
Speaker 1: that you can really point to and say, wow, it
Speaker 1: it works when a group of people get together and
Speaker 1: try and figure out bad stuff when it's happening and
Speaker 1: then just open their mouths or write it down on
Speaker 1: a piece of paper. Um, it makes me feel good
Speaker 1: about the future of what investigative journalism could be. Well,
Speaker 1: speaking of superpowers, I mean that is one of the
Speaker 1: very few that we can actually wield as the ability
Speaker 1: to shed light on things that others would maybe rather
Speaker 1: have remain in the dark. Yeah, and we are going
Speaker 1: to wrap up the episode today. Uh. We hope that
Speaker 1: this has been viable information. Again, this is not by
Speaker 1: any means a conspiracy theory. It is tragically been proven
Speaker 1: true and at this point we um, we don't know
Speaker 1: how far back this stuff goes, to what degree various
Speaker 1: people were complicit. And of course, as we've taken pains
Speaker 1: to say several times, we're talking about the bad guys.
Speaker 1: We're not talking about all people who are Catholic or
Speaker 1: anything like that, or priests or anyway and as you
Speaker 1: guys know, this is a serious thing that it might
Speaker 1: sound strange to some listeners. You guys knew. I spent
Speaker 1: a lot of time when I was younger hanging out
Speaker 1: at a monastery, and uh, it was awesome. Actually. Um.
Speaker 1: But there's one very, very very important thing that we
Speaker 1: want to emphasize for anyone who is listening to this
Speaker 1: um and has concerns. Although it can always feel like
Speaker 1: you are alone or isolated or trapped, you are not. Uh.
Speaker 1: There are people who have dedicated their lives to helping
Speaker 1: you or a loved one who's in a situation, an
Speaker 1: abusive situation, you know, whether that's something involving the cases
Speaker 1: we're talking about now, or whether that's something like domestic violence.
Speaker 1: You have people you can reach out to. And there's
Speaker 1: a number here for the Child Help National Child Abuse
Speaker 1: Hotline which you can contact. It's an eight hundred number.
Speaker 1: It's one eight hundred four two two four four five three.
Speaker 1: Do not hesitate to to reach out for people, to people,
Speaker 1: it's frightening, it's terrifying, it's scary, and it's not your fault.
Speaker 1: And I know that that brings the tone down a
Speaker 1: little bit, but I think we like. The three of
Speaker 1: us agreed. That's important information and and uh we as
Speaker 1: always really appreciate your time, and we'd like to ask
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Speaker 1: getting your reviews on the video feed for the show.
Speaker 1: All right, um, and that's the end of this classic episode.
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