Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show.
Speaker 1: My name is Matt. Our colleague Nola is on an adventure,
Speaker 1: but will be returning shortly. They called me Ben. We
Speaker 1: are joined as always with our super producer Paul. Mission
Speaker 1: Control deconds. Most importantly, you are you, You are here,
Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you
Speaker 1: to know. We are quite excited about today's episode. You know,
Speaker 1: it's um it's reminding me, Matt. It's often said that
Speaker 1: there is a great crime at the heart of every
Speaker 1: great fortune. And it's also often said that two sorts
Speaker 1: of laws exist who sets of laws, One for the
Speaker 1: very very wealthy, one for everyone else, all the other schmucks.
Speaker 1: But in today's episode, we're diving deep into a story
Speaker 1: that doesn't often get told until now. You know, if
Speaker 1: you're a longtime listener to the show, you know about
Speaker 1: things like Project paper Clip, the secret program Uncle Sam
Speaker 1: used to bring Nazi regime scientists to the US. But
Speaker 1: that's only part of a much, much larger story. What
Speaker 1: about the other secrets, What about particularly all those business
Speaker 1: leaders in Germany, the individuals, the families, the dynasties who
Speaker 1: made fortunes off the atrocities of the Third Reich, And
Speaker 1: what about their heirs? What about the folks who inherited
Speaker 1: these fortunes. This is the question our guest journalist and
Speaker 1: author David DeJong explores in his newest book, Nazi Billionaires,
Speaker 1: The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest Dynasties. David, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us today. Thank you, gentlemen for
Speaker 1: having me. It's a pleasure. We're very excited to be
Speaker 1: speaking with you. Uh, we've read through much of your book. Then,
Speaker 1: I believed you've read the entire thing, U and we've
Speaker 1: we've watched interviews, we've talked about Nazis since we were
Speaker 1: making videos back in two thousand ten. That it's just,
Speaker 1: you know, when you make videos about the unknown and
Speaker 1: mysteries and strange things. The Third Reich has plenty of
Speaker 1: material to go into, but we we have never explored
Speaker 1: the fortunes that were built off of things that occurred
Speaker 1: during the Third Reich's reign. So we can't thank you know,
Speaker 1: for doing the research for writing this book. Uh, I think,
Speaker 1: what Ben, let's just let's talk about, like, David, how
Speaker 1: did you get into this? How did you begin this
Speaker 1: investigation and journey. I started looking into these families at
Speaker 1: when while I was still at Bloomberg News, I was
Speaker 1: working as a reporter in New York. I was actually
Speaker 1: hired in late eleven on his new team, which investigated
Speaker 1: hidden wealth and billionaire fortunes, and the team it started
Speaker 1: right around when Occupy Wall Street ended, So there was
Speaker 1: this really you know, it's basically the start of this
Speaker 1: of this narrative of the one percent versus I mean,
Speaker 1: since then it's really become the zero point one percent
Speaker 1: versus pot nine percent. And I was hired as one
Speaker 1: of the of the reporters to cover the America's but
Speaker 1: I was soon asked after a couple of months too
Speaker 1: to cover the German speaking countries because I am Dutch.
Speaker 1: I'm a native Dutchman, and I you know, I tell
Speaker 1: a little bit about in the book about how I
Speaker 1: had this sort of reluctance to cover German fortunes or
Speaker 1: German or German business in general. You know, I'm probably
Speaker 1: I was born in the late eighties, probably the last
Speaker 1: of the generation which grew up with this kind of
Speaker 1: I call it in the book playful antagonism that I
Speaker 1: had visa feed Germany, the Germans, you know, because of
Speaker 1: the brutal occupation that that that happened, you know in
Speaker 1: the Netherlands between May and May, which also affected my family. Uh.
Speaker 1: My grandfather was you know, he tried to sail to
Speaker 1: England with his best friend, was very avid sailor um
Speaker 1: and to join the Royal Air Force. In one and
Speaker 1: the second time his boat was blown back to shore.
Speaker 1: They were arrested by German soldiers and they were sentenced
Speaker 1: as political prisoners to two year forest labor in the
Speaker 1: rural area in Germany just over the border. And you know,
Speaker 1: my grandfather was six six ft seven. He came out
Speaker 1: weighing ninety pounds and luckily, you know, he survived. He
Speaker 1: come valesced in the sanatorium in Switzerland and got married
Speaker 1: to my grandmother, and my mother soon was born after.
Speaker 1: And then as for my my father's parents were Jewish,
Speaker 1: and as were my great grandparents and my grandfather he
Speaker 1: had an amster them for three and a half years
Speaker 1: after his textile factories that the Dutch German border work
Speaker 1: were seized, and my grandmother was you know, she was Swiss.
Speaker 1: She was Swiss, and she fled with my my aunt
Speaker 1: was three at the time and a companion to the
Speaker 1: French Swiss border, and they were arrested by the Gestapo,
Speaker 1: by by the shop bishop or the Nazi Germany secret police,
Speaker 1: and miraculously a Gestapo officer to pity on them and
Speaker 1: let them and to pity on my aunt and my
Speaker 1: grandmother and let them off, and then they fled over
Speaker 1: the mountains into Switzerland and into safety. But her companion
Speaker 1: was deported to too Soviet boy and was murdered. So
Speaker 1: it was you know, it's a miracle that I am
Speaker 1: here today. And I was very much especially by my
Speaker 1: maternal grandfather. He lived and described in a book. I mean,
Speaker 1: he lived in a very small village in the south
Speaker 1: of the Netherlands where all the Germans would always go
Speaker 1: every summer to to to to go to on beach
Speaker 1: holidays um nearby, and you know, then he would always
Speaker 1: quit um you know, another invasion incoming. And he he
Speaker 1: kind of raised me always that he was kind of
Speaker 1: my hero. My maternal funding income raised this idea, you know,
Speaker 1: don't don't take the Germans too seriously, because they take
Speaker 1: themselves too seriously. But I came, actually came to take
Speaker 1: them very seriously, particularly you know, when I was asked
Speaker 1: to cover big business and finance in Germany, because you
Speaker 1: know what I what I quickly found is that particularly
Speaker 1: large brands like BMW and Porsche, they maintain these global
Speaker 1: foundations in the name of their founders or their or
Speaker 1: their saviors or the patriarchs, and they celebrate these men's
Speaker 1: business successes, but they do not mention anywhere that they're
Speaker 1: conducting philanthropy global philanthropy in the name of men who
Speaker 1: committed war crimes, are men who were members of the
Speaker 1: s S. And that is actually the reason why I
Speaker 1: wrote a book, not because of my personal relation to
Speaker 1: the story or because of my personal background. No, it's
Speaker 1: because I was just stunned by after so called reckoning
Speaker 1: as they as they see it occurred that they're still
Speaker 1: doing the they're they're still maintaining these you know, doing
Speaker 1: these fib You know, not only it's not only foundations,
Speaker 1: it's global head corps, corporate headquarters, it's it's journalism prizes
Speaker 1: in the name of these men without being transparent about
Speaker 1: about the bad things they've done on these other writing
Speaker 1: a business success, and I think that is that is,
Speaker 1: you know, leaving out that history is unacceptable to me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's deeply unethical, to say the least. And that's something
Speaker 1: that really stuck with us when we were diving into
Speaker 1: the stories here, because you know, I do have to
Speaker 1: admit there's a bit of dark humor with Bloomberg saying Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: go go cover this, and you having to say, do
Speaker 1: you have any idea, well, what you're asking me to do?
Speaker 1: And I could sense that, I could sense that reticence,
Speaker 1: but it did it did pay off in a way
Speaker 1: that many, especially many Americans, are not aware of. You know,
Speaker 1: many people in the US know of some business stories
Speaker 1: from that time in Nazi Germany, you know, like Coca
Speaker 1: Cola inventing Fanta, or ib MS disturbingly cozy relationship with
Speaker 1: the Third Reich. Yeah, and the list goes on. But
Speaker 1: people here often think of those relationships as singular, isolated
Speaker 1: moments in business history, isolated from the current day. And
Speaker 1: I want to know if that is an attitude or
Speaker 1: a perspective that you have encountered in Europe in the US,
Speaker 1: or maybe even in Germany itself. Is there an active,
Speaker 1: coordinated effort in some cases to sanitize history for lack
Speaker 1: of a better term, I mean, here's this kind of
Speaker 1: tried and true mefort, at least in Germany, where you
Speaker 1: know a media scout, you know, it's like clockwork. Every
Speaker 1: year some media scot has kind no breaks about a
Speaker 1: famous German business dynasty with global business interests for the
Speaker 1: most part, and you know, some investigative reporter in Germany
Speaker 1: digs up there they're hidden activities of Patriarch X, you know,
Speaker 1: who was a committed Nazi party member who use mass
Speaker 1: force and slave labor, who mass produced weapons, who you know,
Speaker 1: acquired companies stolen from Jews or acquired shares far below
Speaker 1: market value because people were desperate to leave to flee
Speaker 1: Jewish people were desperate to flee Nazi Germany, or expropriated
Speaker 1: companies of people who were in a livelhood of people
Speaker 1: who were living in occupied territories. So what then happens
Speaker 1: are to the responses? Then, Okay, we're going to commission
Speaker 1: an academic study. It's going to be an independent academic study.
Speaker 1: You know, we're we're we've we've we've asked a prominent
Speaker 1: German history professor to to to do this. Him his
Speaker 1: team as researchers will conduct this and and you know,
Speaker 1: three or four years later, you know, we will open
Speaker 1: our archives as well for the first time and three
Speaker 1: four years lead and then it's silent, you know, and
Speaker 1: then three or four years later study the studies published
Speaker 1: X gives one Maya kupa interview um and and about
Speaker 1: what happens then with the reckoning. I mean, you have
Speaker 1: a very dense academic study in German that does not
Speaker 1: reach a wider audience. It remains the story itself, remains
Speaker 1: contained to Germany. And you know, barely any translations, you know,
Speaker 1: bar few exceptions, you have very few translations of these
Speaker 1: studies ever ever produced. And the question that I also
Speaker 1: have in like a large pictures, who exactly is this
Speaker 1: reckoning dis reported? Reckoning with right? Because you know, for
Speaker 1: the most part, the Germans were not see the victims
Speaker 1: of Germany's own crimes. It were millions and millions of
Speaker 1: others living in Europe. You know, we're forced into forced
Speaker 1: or or slave labor um, particularly in Eastern Europe, you know, Poland, Ukraine, Russia,
Speaker 1: Belarus party taking in some part as well in in
Speaker 1: the Holocaust too, you know, or or having led concentration
Speaker 1: camps and in etcetera, or having built them who then
Speaker 1: is directing with because it never reaches the surviving former
Speaker 1: force or slave labors or their heirs. Right, they don't
Speaker 1: read academic German. So then companies like BMW and Porsche
Speaker 1: can can go on and pretending like nothing has happened.
Speaker 1: And it is also the sense is that they lean
Speaker 1: on Germany's collective guilt, right we were all I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you also to imagine that Germany still, you know,
Speaker 1: every time one of these business families or one of
Speaker 1: these massive global companies comes out with a study. I mean,
Speaker 1: they get inundated with this stuff. You know, you get
Speaker 1: so in Germany, learning about the third right era is
Speaker 1: is it's you know, and being confronted with it is omnipresent, right,
Speaker 1: so it is you know it point Unfortunately, you become
Speaker 1: I mean I imagined they become desensitized to it, so
Speaker 1: in a way that you're able to contain these narratives
Speaker 1: to Germany. And yeah, I'm bringing to a global audience
Speaker 1: down for the first time when we're glad you're doing that. Uh,
Speaker 1: you just hit on something that I just want to
Speaker 1: talk a little bit further about. You kind of you
Speaker 1: outlined it pretty quickly there, but this is two parts.
Speaker 1: So first, are there any car manufacturers that don't have
Speaker 1: a background relationship with the Third Reich? I was just
Speaker 1: looking through the list in the book and yeah, goodness,
Speaker 1: yeah no, yeah, but that's kind of a joke question.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, but but you just name so many major
Speaker 1: car manufacturers that are still big players today that did
Speaker 1: have a background. Let's dive a little deeper into what
Speaker 1: exactly companies like BMW we're doing during the reign of
Speaker 1: the third Third Reich to to gain profits and um
Speaker 1: to make those fortunes that we're talking about. The main
Speaker 1: family I'm writing about qua who came to control BMW
Speaker 1: after World War Two. So the patriarch Gunther Quanta and
Speaker 1: his son Herbert. They they controlled guns, mainly controlled and
Speaker 1: and operated a massive battery manufacturer and a massive arms manufacturer.
Speaker 1: And quickly after Hitler sees his power, he starts in
Speaker 1: secret this massive rearmament push and you know all the
Speaker 1: industrialists who by the way, and it is also one
Speaker 1: of the maps and charge of the spell in the book.
Speaker 1: You know, most of the families I'm writing about, we're
Speaker 1: already extremely wealthy when Hitler sees power, except for the
Speaker 1: poor Shapire family who today controls the Volkswagen group, which
Speaker 1: has Art Porsche. Volkswagen says good to Bentley Lamborghini. So
Speaker 1: around the largest garn manufacturers in the world. Their wealth
Speaker 1: really started because of their relation with the Third Reich
Speaker 1: and because Hitler put the Volkswagen in production, which for
Speaker 1: non Porsche car design company also ended up taking off
Speaker 1: in this era. And you know, all of them works
Speaker 1: already extremely wealthy bar them. And after the big Weronman
Speaker 1: push starts, billions and billions flow into the coverers of
Speaker 1: of the industrialists that are producing that we are now
Speaker 1: producing mass producing weapons. And then you have all these
Speaker 1: decrees that come out that are issued which you know
Speaker 1: incrementally takes the assets of Jewish people living in or
Speaker 1: seizes the companies of Jewish people living in Germany. Of course,
Speaker 1: once the war breaks out, you have that extended, you know,
Speaker 1: to Nazi occupied territories as well as you know where
Speaker 1: because German Men were being called to the front. This
Speaker 1: mass rounding up of people all across of the men
Speaker 1: and women all across and teenagers to all across Europe
Speaker 1: who were then being shipped off or people ordered to
Speaker 1: forcibly work in factories in all across Germany, as well
Speaker 1: as slave labor from concentration camp, but from concentration camps
Speaker 1: later on during the war. So these are really the
Speaker 1: main components of how these families benefited from the Third Rock,
Speaker 1: and benefit they did because as you as you established
Speaker 1: in the recent New York Times article, which which is
Speaker 1: also a fantastic overview of some of the problems here,
Speaker 1: as you established you you open with some critical facts
Speaker 1: about the scope and power of Germans modern automotive industry.
Speaker 1: Right it is, it is huge. To call it a
Speaker 1: leviathan is maybe a bit unfair even, but it's not
Speaker 1: hyperboly the it's not. I think it's a pretty fair description. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: the thing that gets me about this is, and I
Speaker 1: think it gets Matt you as well, is that for
Speaker 1: people in the US, there's quite a disturbing comparison to
Speaker 1: be made between the deification of these titans of industry
Speaker 1: and their families. And we've got to talk more about
Speaker 1: those families in a second, But there's there's this clear
Speaker 1: comparison to be had between the way that parts of
Speaker 1: the US have deified um Confederate memorials right or officers
Speaker 1: in the Confederate Army. And I'm wondering, in your opinion,
Speaker 1: what how would the people of Germany react if there
Speaker 1: was a movement to you know, take these Nazi sympathizers
Speaker 1: names off of foundations or to you know, be more
Speaker 1: transparent about their past. Would they would the German establishment
Speaker 1: push against this? What would the reckoning be interesting? That's
Speaker 1: a very interesting question. I think there would be the
Speaker 1: German establishment, which is embarked art these families I'm writing about,
Speaker 1: of course, and they are and they're handlers and and
Speaker 1: and the entire culture around around them, of course don't
Speaker 1: to too large extent do not do that right. They
Speaker 1: leave their dark histories out on the websites of the
Speaker 1: of the global foundation they control through you know, the
Speaker 1: global brands such as BMW, nportion. But I think the
Speaker 1: vast majority of Germans would be delighted if they know,
Speaker 1: if they knew, if they're aware, would be delighted to
Speaker 1: to you know, either see these companies being pushed to
Speaker 1: be transparent about it online or or C d C,
Speaker 1: T c C, these foundations or media prizes or corporate quarters,
Speaker 1: um renamed. I mean what I write in the s
Speaker 1: in the New York Times, I say, is what I
Speaker 1: wrote in New York Times. I say as well, was
Speaker 1: how you know I lived? I moved for this book.
Speaker 1: I moved from from from New York to Berlin in
Speaker 1: late And you know, there is such a awareness and
Speaker 1: such a new ones and such a such a introspective
Speaker 1: discussion going on in Germany about this past. And it
Speaker 1: seems like the most powerful players in Germany do not
Speaker 1: want to do not want to participate in that. And
Speaker 1: that is of course very damaging because these families are
Speaker 1: not only economically powerful, the quality BMW quants are also
Speaker 1: the largest donors to to the Christian Conservative said Miracle
Speaker 1: Angela Merkel's party, right um. And and you know there's
Speaker 1: books people all were worked for cdo politicians. So it's
Speaker 1: very much this is the total establishment I'm writing about.
Speaker 1: And and they they clearly do not want to want
Speaker 1: to engage in this on a global level. At least
Speaker 1: I want to play Devil's advocate just for a moment.
Speaker 1: For this I I spent quite a bit of time
Speaker 1: on some of these foundations websites where You're right, they
Speaker 1: don't talk about any of these things and the connections,
Speaker 1: but they do all of them without exception. They have
Speaker 1: these very lofty goals they've you know, they state things
Speaker 1: about their missions that like I I love like this,
Speaker 1: these are great things to try and do and and
Speaker 1: to work towards and to pour money into. Um. I
Speaker 1: I just it feels as though there's good work. And
Speaker 1: specifically I'm looking right now at the BMW Herbert kunt Foundation,
Speaker 1: uh and I just like what, um what is the goal?
Speaker 1: What is the goal? I guess in in having foundation
Speaker 1: like that like really come to terms with their past.
Speaker 1: It's not the foundation, of course, it's it's it's accompany
Speaker 1: itself and it's controlling shareholders. And it's quite perverse. In
Speaker 1: the case of the BMW. Quantz who commissioned is academic
Speaker 1: study two pousand seven after a critical TV documentary you know,
Speaker 1: came out on Good jour and Herbert Quantz third rag
Speaker 1: Past and arch activities and you know, four years day
Speaker 1: to study is published. Stephan Quanto was one of, together
Speaker 1: with his sisters, the controlling shareholder of BMW gives this
Speaker 1: interview to decide Um, one of Germany's leading newspapers, and says,
Speaker 1: you know, we're not going to rename our headquarters and
Speaker 1: if you going to Quant, we're not going to rename
Speaker 1: our media price. And after Herbert Quant, we're not going
Speaker 1: to rename our foundation. But we will remember them in
Speaker 1: you know, the with the good and the bad things.
Speaker 1: But it becomes completely but it never says how they're
Speaker 1: going to do that, right so in s so what
Speaker 1: leads to this very perverse situation where in twenty sixteen
Speaker 1: they they make the BMW foundation Herbert Quant global and
Speaker 1: make it much larger, and Stefan Stefan Quand and Susanna Klatten,
Speaker 1: the siblings you know, both give you know, tens of
Speaker 1: millions of dollars to his foundation and then the motto
Speaker 1: is inspire responsible leader ship. I mean, you can't make
Speaker 1: this up in the name of a man who, yes,
Speaker 1: he said BMW from bankruptcy in ninette, but who also
Speaker 1: this man you know, who also built or a planned
Speaker 1: built and and and dismantled a sub concentration camp in
Speaker 1: Nazi occupied Poland early who had to responsibility over over
Speaker 1: battery factories in Berlin, where you know, thousands of force
Speaker 1: and slave laborers were used, including five hundred female slave
Speaker 1: laborers from concentration camps who helped acquire companies in France
Speaker 1: sees from Jews and we use at as private estate
Speaker 1: prisoners of war and forced labor. And to inspire responsible
Speaker 1: leadership is to be transparent about that history and not
Speaker 1: to leave that up. You know, the BMW Foundation, I
Speaker 1: asked them and they said, well, we are only concerned
Speaker 1: with what what what Herbert Quant did during his ownership
Speaker 1: of BMW between nine and his death in two Whereas
Speaker 1: when the spokes the spokesperson for seven Quanta, Susanna Clatter,
Speaker 1: when they suddenly replaced part of the biography on the
Speaker 1: Herbert Quant Media Price, said oh, this year we decided
Speaker 1: to to replace after ten this year we did, we
Speaker 1: reviewed our web presence and we decided to go for
Speaker 1: a more holistic biography of Herbert Quant, which now shows
Speaker 1: that these And they did that a couple of months
Speaker 1: after I asked you an ignored question about where they
Speaker 1: considered the website of the Herbert Kuan Media Price a
Speaker 1: journalism price, wherefore also of Germany's most high profile journalists
Speaker 1: serve on if they consider that to be open and transparent.
Speaker 1: Never got a response on that question. Three months later, overnight,
Speaker 1: suddenly a new biography footnote that still leaves out a
Speaker 1: lot of Herbert Quantz Nazi activities, but at least now
Speaker 1: it's says that that he had to responsibility of these
Speaker 1: brilliant battery factories. And then you have the spokesman saying,
Speaker 1: after I con front of him with it, he said, oh,
Speaker 1: we decided to go for a more holistic view of
Speaker 1: Herbert que side, which you know, I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's truly beyond irony, unfortunately, and we were going to
Speaker 1: take a quick commercial break, but we'll be right back,
Speaker 1: and we've returned with David de Jon. I want to
Speaker 1: set up a moment in the very beginning of the
Speaker 1: book where in you right beautifully about this really disturbing,
Speaker 1: weird meeting in February. I believe it is. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: so uh this you fulk. You'll have to check out
Speaker 1: the book yourself to get the actual language here, but
Speaker 1: there to paraphrase it or to summarize, around two dozen
Speaker 1: of the absolute most powerful members of Germany's business community
Speaker 1: meet at Herman Goring's house, and they're under the impression
Speaker 1: that this new chancellor on the block, this Adolph Hitler guy,
Speaker 1: is gonna just, you know, explain his policies to the group, right,
Speaker 1: and uh, then there's a bunch of power plays that
Speaker 1: happened at the very beginning. It quickly becomes a parent
Speaker 1: that this is not the meeting these guys thought they
Speaker 1: were going to. And it ties into a two part
Speaker 1: question I have and I think we all have it. First,
Speaker 1: what actually happened at the meeting? How did it shape
Speaker 1: the events of the future? And then secondly, knowing how
Speaker 1: that meeting went, is it a good faith argument for
Speaker 1: these business leaders to have said they were forced to
Speaker 1: participate or to collaborate with the regime, because you know
Speaker 1: you have did also later in the work that that
Speaker 1: was that was something a few people said, right like,
Speaker 1: it wasn't my choice to do this, I was forced to. Yeah,
Speaker 1: these are both really good questions. So as to your
Speaker 1: first question, at the point of the meeting happens on
Speaker 1: February ninety three, the Nazi Party is dead, broke, They're
Speaker 1: twelve million Heist mark in debt, and I mean it's
Speaker 1: like tens of millions in dollars today and they you know,
Speaker 1: they summoned these businessmen under guise of of having Hitler
Speaker 1: expence for economic policy, and they're basically being asked to
Speaker 1: pony up to a election slush fund um to to
Speaker 1: to finance the election campaign that in the run up
Speaker 1: to March five. But by the time the election happens,
Speaker 1: and a week after the meeting, the stock burns down
Speaker 1: under the most mysterious of circumstances still hasn't cleared up exactly.
Speaker 1: A show trial happens where a couple of members Communist
Speaker 1: Party members put to trial and are executed, but it's
Speaker 1: not clear still to this day who actually set the
Speaker 1: ice stuck on fire. So you know, martial law is implemented,
Speaker 1: and basically all the Communists and all Communists and social
Speaker 1: Democrats in Germany are arrested. Um and and also during
Speaker 1: that speech on February twenty February, Gurring and Hitlers say
Speaker 1: the election of March three is going to be the
Speaker 1: last election that's going to occur in Germany for the
Speaker 1: past for the next ten years to a hundred years time.
Speaker 1: So that ends up being about three million rice mark
Speaker 1: ends up being paid by various companies and and and
Speaker 1: and industrialists and financiers. But the election itself doesn't really
Speaker 1: matter anymore because Hitler has already seized power, and and
Speaker 1: and martial law has been declared. So did that money
Speaker 1: really matter? Probably not that much, because the fire happened,
Speaker 1: and and and and and law and the rule of
Speaker 1: law is suspended best degree, but at least as Gobble
Speaker 1: as Joseph Gobbles, the Nazi propaganda or the Nazi campaign
Speaker 1: manager and propaganda leader brighton this diary the next day
Speaker 1: after the meeting, saying, you know, the millions are here.
Speaker 1: You know, we can put the presses back to work.
Speaker 1: So at least for one to two weeks, they had
Speaker 1: they they had money, they had cash on hand, and
Speaker 1: they could run an election campaign. Wow, the rule of
Speaker 1: law was suspended, what was being suspended? And and and
Speaker 1: everything else happens, So that that's that's one. Now as
Speaker 1: to your second question, did they have a choice in
Speaker 1: the matter? Do you mean generally or at that meeting?
Speaker 1: I mean I mean generally because I believe when we're
Speaker 1: talking about facing possible consequences after the conclusion of World
Speaker 1: War Two, there were a lot of people saying, you know,
Speaker 1: over the course of this I was forced to do
Speaker 1: these things. Yeah, um, yeah, they had a choice. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's the example of Fritz Teason of you know, Tesson
Speaker 1: Group now teasing Croup. Back then it was the Tecent
Speaker 1: Steell conglomerate and the Croup still conglomerate. And you know,
Speaker 1: Fritz Teason was one of Hitler's earliest backers and um
Speaker 1: of the industrialist because the industrially staid in then in
Speaker 1: the businessman for the business community first was like they
Speaker 1: didn't want anything to do with Hitler. So only when
Speaker 1: he started being electorally successful that there were in the
Speaker 1: crash of October happens on Wall Street and the economy
Speaker 1: is in a big grade propression starts that they're coming
Speaker 1: around to this idea of you know, let's check out
Speaker 1: this Hitler guy. And and Hitler himself and his and
Speaker 1: his entourage had had no connection barely any connections to
Speaker 1: two business people at that point in time. Talking leg
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty early Fritz season, one of Hitler's earliest backers,
Speaker 1: already starts backing him in the mid nineteen twenties. He
Speaker 1: ends up he is a member of Parliament at the
Speaker 1: eve of the of of Germany's invasion of Poland in September,
Speaker 1: n ends up voting against the invasion and and fleeing Germany,
Speaker 1: going to Paris, where he has an American journalist write
Speaker 1: in this whitewash book called right a bright whitewash men
Speaker 1: Mark called I paid Hitler and he's arrested, and Fritz
Speaker 1: season is and ends up in a concentration camp. So
Speaker 1: he you know, you're talking about part of Germany's most
Speaker 1: powerful industrialists who just two turns against the regime and
Speaker 1: has as a result, has his um has his still
Speaker 1: conglomerate of course appropriated or put under trusteeship of of
Speaker 1: somebody else. Actually the right hand man, one of the
Speaker 1: main characters in my book. And um, you know you
Speaker 1: so you had it, you know, if you you could
Speaker 1: turn again. They had a choice, absolutely to had a choice.
Speaker 1: Gunter Quant arguably the main character of my book, or
Speaker 1: one of the main characters in my book. You know,
Speaker 1: he writes in his wide Wash memoir that he that
Speaker 1: he that he writes after the war ninety four seven,
Speaker 1: when he's in detention, when he's in American detention, actually
Speaker 1: in Germany. He writes how he could have left to
Speaker 1: North America or South America, where his business partners were
Speaker 1: during that era, but that he stayed put, you know,
Speaker 1: as he puts it himself, to be a loyal soldier
Speaker 1: to you know, to to to protect his his his
Speaker 1: factories and his employees for for you know, to keep
Speaker 1: them running basically, so he admits that, you know, he
Speaker 1: frames himself as a as a you know, as a Nazi,
Speaker 1: as an anti Nazi, and somebody who was a victim
Speaker 1: of the regime, even though he was not one of
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany's largest arms men of lecturers and one of the
Speaker 1: the largest user of force and slave labor, and one
Speaker 1: of the largest beneficiaries of stolen companies, both in Germany
Speaker 1: and occupied territories. I want to I want to stay
Speaker 1: in that realm Um. Many children are taught about the
Speaker 1: Nuremberg Trials, and they're aware of those things and the
Speaker 1: consequences of people who are directly involved in the war,
Speaker 1: especially you know, on the military front. I personally, and
Speaker 1: I think many of the many people out there don't
Speaker 1: know what happened to these corporations and these private interests
Speaker 1: post World War Two that are in Germany. Um, what
Speaker 1: happened to a company like BMW after a war like that.
Speaker 1: There were all these plans, you know, the initial planets
Speaker 1: of Henry Morgantower was a Treasury secretary on the Roosevelt,
Speaker 1: you know, proposed this famous plan initially, and I think
Speaker 1: believe it was n which became known as the Morganto Plan.
Speaker 1: And which is this which basically caused for this the
Speaker 1: complete destruction and dismantling of all of German industry and
Speaker 1: and the summarily execution of you know, not only of
Speaker 1: military and political leaders, but also of of German industrialists.
Speaker 1: Their plan ends up being scrapped, and instead there is
Speaker 1: a focus on as they called it, the five d s,
Speaker 1: which is which is in the in the pot Stem
Speaker 1: Agreement of August, which style in Harry Truman and the
Speaker 1: silent Harry Truman and Clement at least the successor to Roosevelt,
Speaker 1: agree on. You know, the five ds are the natification,
Speaker 1: which is a word you hear a lot nowadays, because
Speaker 1: it's what Vladimir Putin uses to describe what he's doing
Speaker 1: in Ukraine. Just obscene. The word of the the use
Speaker 1: of I mean, what he's doing is horrific. But the
Speaker 1: use of that word the nattification in that context, because
Speaker 1: the natification was became a very flawed legal process that
Speaker 1: saw millions of Germans basically go free for crimes that
Speaker 1: committed under the Nazi during the Third Ride or simple
Speaker 1: Nazi sympathies that they had. So the notification. There's decartilization,
Speaker 1: which means it means the that the cartels, the big
Speaker 1: industrial conglomerates were broken up. Deconcentration which was referred to
Speaker 1: German industry being less concentrated, being less in the hands
Speaker 1: of being less you know, too big to fail, less
Speaker 1: in the hands of the very few. And the militarization,
Speaker 1: which speaks for itself. But in the end, you know,
Speaker 1: the de concentration and decarcialization, they happened with a company
Speaker 1: like Ek Farban, which was the largest chemical company in
Speaker 1: the world at the time. And you know you have
Speaker 1: today you have Buyer and B A. S F. Which
Speaker 1: is today Buyer is one of the large pharmaceutical companies
Speaker 1: in the world and B A. S F is the
Speaker 1: large chemical company in the world who both came out
Speaker 1: of what Eka Farben was. And you know, there's Eka
Speaker 1: Farmer for the reb but the rest all the German
Speaker 1: company was basically or the German business basically remained intact.
Speaker 1: There wasn't massive continuation of the power structures e can
Speaker 1: both economic and politically, but mainly economically that remained in
Speaker 1: place because, of course, very soon after World War Two happens,
Speaker 1: the Cold War emerges, and it's in America's best or
Speaker 1: deems that in its best interest to have a strong, industrialized,
Speaker 1: democratic West Germany to you as used as a bulwark
Speaker 1: against the encroaching Soviet Union, and for that it needed
Speaker 1: a economically viable West Germany. So German business needed to
Speaker 1: be protected, and German businessmen, um, you know, except for
Speaker 1: the three industrialist trials at New rom Burg, we basically
Speaker 1: let off scot free. I'm seeing so many parallels. It's
Speaker 1: kind of what Ben was already talking about here, parallels
Speaker 1: between what occurred then and then what we're seeing happen
Speaker 1: right now. And you just hit on it just with
Speaker 1: a simple word that's being thrown around right now as
Speaker 1: a as a justification for actions being taken that appear
Speaker 1: to be appear to be World War three, like let's say, um, well,
Speaker 1: and it makes me think about the economic sanctions that
Speaker 1: are placed like the weapon of war of choice from
Speaker 1: you know, NATO and and much of the West is
Speaker 1: economic and we're hitting in these places. We're hitting the
Speaker 1: industry right as much as possible. UM. I'm just wondering
Speaker 1: how you after doing all this research, looking at the
Speaker 1: profit centers of the Third Reich, looking at these these
Speaker 1: families that you know, you can kind of see it
Speaker 1: mirrored in the oligarchs, Like what what what other mirrored
Speaker 1: situations do you see happening right now? From what you've
Speaker 1: learned in researching this, what you see happening now, of
Speaker 1: course is the main parallel is what's happening with the
Speaker 1: Russian oligarchs and their Devil's packed with with Vladimir Putin,
Speaker 1: which was of course the Russian oligarchs for the most part,
Speaker 1: took there, you know, grabbed the their initial assets in
Speaker 1: this in the wild west of the Russia of the
Speaker 1: under Boris Yeltsen, and then consolidated their power with you know,
Speaker 1: with this devil's packed Imputin in the early two thousand's
Speaker 1: and have been allowed to operate unfettered globally since and
Speaker 1: are now having this moment of reckoning because of Russia's
Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine. And of course because of their because
Speaker 1: they owe their which or they owe their maintenance of
Speaker 1: their billion fortune and assets to their relationship with Putin.
Speaker 1: That's the clearest example I can I can. You know,
Speaker 1: it's the clear I mean, it is very very you know,
Speaker 1: in a sense, it's very timely. But that's the you know,
Speaker 1: it's it's the clearest example I can figure at the moment.
Speaker 1: Let's pause for a moment. We'll have a word from
Speaker 1: our sponsor, who is hopefully not Krispy Kreme, and we'll
Speaker 1: be back with more from David Dejng. And we're back
Speaker 1: with more from author David. One other thing that's interesting,
Speaker 1: when we're looking at the human element of this um
Speaker 1: you had already, I want to talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about process this sort of a meta question. UM. You have,
Speaker 1: as we established earlier, spent years investigating hidden wealth, uh,
Speaker 1: the storage of money or the transit of money for
Speaker 1: billionaires and high net worth individuals. When when you were
Speaker 1: in the midst of the research for Nazi billionaires, were
Speaker 1: you able to apply some of your earlier research processes
Speaker 1: to these cases. I'm just I think we're both interested
Speaker 1: in learning how difficult it was or was not to
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of stories about complicity. You know,
Speaker 1: there are parts of the book where you talk, in
Speaker 1: particular about the extreme privacy that a lot of these
Speaker 1: airs have. In some cases, it feels like you're you're
Speaker 1: searching for answers that don't want to be found. How
Speaker 1: how did you navigate that, especially given that these are
Speaker 1: very powerful people. Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm a reporter.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm a reporter first, So I did reporting,
Speaker 1: and of course, because I have one air talk to
Speaker 1: me or correspond with me on the records. But other
Speaker 1: than that, I you know, had spokespeople answer part of
Speaker 1: my questions and but for many I also just received
Speaker 1: no comments. I received a few statements here and there,
Speaker 1: but that it was about it. So I had to
Speaker 1: report around the subject, and I had to use with
Speaker 1: you know, I had to do multi archive research in
Speaker 1: Europe and the United States. You know, of course, one
Speaker 1: of the main sources of information are all these massive
Speaker 1: academic studies that have been commissioned, but that that you know,
Speaker 1: I have never been really delved into or or or
Speaker 1: used as sources in a journalistic work that brings this
Speaker 1: to a larger audience. I mean, there were many, many
Speaker 1: memoirs poured over, you know, hundreds of thousands of historical documents,
Speaker 1: all of them thankfully that have been digitalized diaries. The
Speaker 1: Diary of Yos of Gobbles was more for the narrative
Speaker 1: itself rather than for the larger question. Was it was?
Speaker 1: It was? It was a great so us I mean,
Speaker 1: and then it's just old fashioned reporting. You know, you
Speaker 1: you try to talk to people, but not even the
Speaker 1: people you know, as in question didn't want to talk
Speaker 1: to me, but also nobody around it, you know, lawyers
Speaker 1: or the family offices or you know. It was it's
Speaker 1: also exactly these people are extremely private, so you know,
Speaker 1: it's um you know, a lot of talks. Spoke with
Speaker 1: a lot of historians too in Germany, which was which
Speaker 1: was also important to kind of you know, for the
Speaker 1: framing of the entire debate. I have to ask that
Speaker 1: you know, that really stands out because we've spoken in
Speaker 1: the past on this show about how privacy becomes a
Speaker 1: powerful currency all its own, especially in a world where
Speaker 1: everything is connected, right, and one passage I really wanted
Speaker 1: to drill into is we're talking about families. I was
Speaker 1: fascinated by how you were able to map out the
Speaker 1: families and the business is that they control or controlled,
Speaker 1: And in particular I was interested in the story of
Speaker 1: the Rieman family where where you say, I mean there,
Speaker 1: I had no idea they're a huge deal. And you
Speaker 1: also kind of at one point you you mentioned that
Speaker 1: there is no public photograph of the Ryman air. Okay,
Speaker 1: so that all right? I wanted to make sure it
Speaker 1: wasn't misread. No, no, no, no, you are you are
Speaker 1: very right. So how did you find these families? Like,
Speaker 1: how did you Actually, it's fine, it's it's it's very
Speaker 1: interesting to bring up the Rieman's um because it actually
Speaker 1: the first story I ever did on a German business
Speaker 1: family was for Bloomberg, was in April exactly ten years
Speaker 1: ago when Day initiated. When the Riemans or their entity
Speaker 1: J A b. Which controls an incredible amount of American
Speaker 1: uh fast food and consumer brands. I mean I can go.
Speaker 1: I mean there's just so many Krispy Kreme Donuts, you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean okay, I mean Krispy Kreame Donuts, Snapple, seven Up, A, Panera, Bread,
Speaker 1: Einstein Bros. Bagels, Current Green, Mountain, Pizs Coffee. I mean
Speaker 1: that's not even half of Coti, which is the makeup.
Speaker 1: I mean there's is incredible. And they built all of
Speaker 1: that up, those of the brands except for Corti in
Speaker 1: the past ten years because they started the executive to
Speaker 1: have a man who made them as richest r today,
Speaker 1: the chairman Peter Harve, who initiated this coffee sorry this yeah,
Speaker 1: this coffee strategy was in but it started with them
Speaker 1: trying to buy with Coti, which I already owned for
Speaker 1: for a long time, buying avon the hair products, the
Speaker 1: famous American Well it was the door to door seller,
Speaker 1: I think. And that's a she the first time I
Speaker 1: ever reported on a secretive German dynasty business dynasty, and
Speaker 1: you know, the Rhemans. I use them at the end
Speaker 1: of the book as a counter example to the other
Speaker 1: families in the book because in the they emerge as
Speaker 1: as Germany's wealthiest family. Um, you know, I spent years
Speaker 1: reporting on them for Bloomberg, reporting on their global deal
Speaker 1: making and reporting on all these other families Nazi history,
Speaker 1: having no idea that the Rhymans itself had the most
Speaker 1: bizarre Nazi history of all of them. So it's it's
Speaker 1: crazy how this story For to me, it's crazy how
Speaker 1: this story can totally full circle with the Rymans because
Speaker 1: in March, just as the as they emerges as Germany's wealthy,
Speaker 1: wealthiest family, they have Germany's largest tabloid built on Zontac
Speaker 1: or largest Sunday tabloid built on Sunday. They break this
Speaker 1: put show this reporter Maximilian ki Will breaks this massive
Speaker 1: story about the dark history of of of of of
Speaker 1: of of certainly as well for his family, the Riemans,
Speaker 1: and he goes into how the patriarchs are you know,
Speaker 1: both deeply committed Nazis as members of the doughters to
Speaker 1: the SS sit on the municipality in the in the
Speaker 1: in the city where they're from in the south of Germany.
Speaker 1: For they serve for the Nazi Party. You know, their
Speaker 1: company was quite small in comparison to the other families
Speaker 1: are right about in the book, but they use hundreds
Speaker 1: of of of force labors and their chemical companies and
Speaker 1: their chemical company called Bankings are I have a particularly
Speaker 1: brutal factory foreman who abuses who you know, abuses force
Speaker 1: labors in the most horrific ways. And you know key
Speaker 1: Will discovered all of that. Now the Riemans, and I
Speaker 1: was quite in touch often with the spokeswoman. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: the Riemans had already commissioned a history professor to dig
Speaker 1: into that history before the story broke. He was commissioned
Speaker 1: years earlier. So you have their chairman, Peter Harf issued
Speaker 1: his response. And then two months later, this massive story
Speaker 1: in New York Times breaks of the Rhymans of two
Speaker 1: Rhyman heirs for the first time ever is being on
Speaker 1: the record with Katherine ben Holt, was the New York
Speaker 1: Times period chief in Berlin, about how their father, Albert Ryman,
Speaker 1: the committed Nazi, had an affair with a Jewish woman
Speaker 1: whose father was deprayer. We deported, and and and and
Speaker 1: and sorry have Jewish woman, a woman of Jewish with
Speaker 1: Jewish roots because her father was Jewish and was murdered
Speaker 1: in the Holocaust. M and how they have this this narrative,
Speaker 1: this very tragic narrative which are only later found much
Speaker 1: later found out about being the heirs of both a
Speaker 1: you know, being descendants of both a perpetrator and a victim.
Speaker 1: And they end up renaming their foundation in the name
Speaker 1: of their murdered grandfather, Alfred Landecker and funding it in
Speaker 1: perpetuity with two D fifty million euros, which is you know,
Speaker 1: three hundred three D and fifty million dollars every ten years,
Speaker 1: and but still being transparent about that. Their patriarchs, you know,
Speaker 1: we're total Nazeas and and and anti Semits. And even
Speaker 1: their great aunt was married to an s. S Man.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really like they were just truly a
Speaker 1: Nazi family. And then you know Albert Ryman, their their
Speaker 1: their father who was married to a woman but didn't
Speaker 1: have children. For father's three children with this have Jewish
Speaker 1: woman and and you know these airs end up um
Speaker 1: as all of their cousins end up as Germany's wealthiest family.
Speaker 1: So it's it's totally it was total bizarre, totally bizarre story,
Speaker 1: you know. I mean, it's it's very tragic and and
Speaker 1: just is surreal and tragic. I mean, I can't I
Speaker 1: can't make it and anything else of it. Wow, thank you, Ben,
Speaker 1: I did not I did not know that last story.
Speaker 1: I guess from the end of the book there. Wow. Okay, um, David,
Speaker 1: we have a unique thing here where we've just completed
Speaker 1: our first book and it's coming on October check it out.
Speaker 1: And we we know the process now of uh, cutting, cutting?
Speaker 1: What is it killing your darlings? The expression of like
Speaker 1: having to get rid of certain parts of the book
Speaker 1: because they just don't happen to fit in the story
Speaker 1: you're telling. I wonder if there's anything in your research
Speaker 1: that you came across that would you know, just be
Speaker 1: a story that you'd want to tell that you had
Speaker 1: to take out of the book. Oh wow, it's such
Speaker 1: a good question. I had to cut about a hundred
Speaker 1: badges of the I end up cutting about a hundred
Speaker 1: padges of the book. I think everything it's sort is
Speaker 1: kind of a laments, But I think everything that I
Speaker 1: wanted in the book ended up in it, because you know,
Speaker 1: the hundred pages that were cut. How great editor in
Speaker 1: the US Alexander little Field and in the UK are
Speaker 1: Abella Pike, and they you know, they gave fantastic structual
Speaker 1: feedback which allowed me to rewrite the story in a
Speaker 1: way which made it far more slimmer and better paced.
Speaker 1: And those hundred pages that were cut were really we're
Speaker 1: just redundant, was redundant information. So you know, everything that
Speaker 1: I wanted in there ended up being in there. I
Speaker 1: didn't really feel that I had to cut any major darlings,
Speaker 1: which I feel very blessed about. Congratulations, wonderful And with this,
Speaker 1: you know, we have to we have to ask. There's
Speaker 1: a sense of mission right to telling stories that some
Speaker 1: powerful people would rather not be told. And I think
Speaker 1: we're both very interested in the audience as well. Today.
Speaker 1: I think we're all interested in hearing what what you
Speaker 1: hope comes about as a result of this, of this investigation,
Speaker 1: what you know. I saw an earlier interview, not that
Speaker 1: we were stalking you too much, but saw an earlier
Speaker 1: interview where where someone to ask you what the reaction
Speaker 1: in Germany was like when the book came out, and
Speaker 1: you had said, at least at that time, you had
Speaker 1: said the press was a bit silent. Was that the case?
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean the book. I mean we're talking
Speaker 1: on April twentie The book came out on April nineteen,
Speaker 1: so yesterday, and an interview was also from yesterday, and
Speaker 1: you know so far, I mean, the German translation is
Speaker 1: gonna come out May five, and we'll see. I mean,
Speaker 1: it is an extremely fraught subject in Germany. Still, the
Speaker 1: press laws in Germany are also not as free as
Speaker 1: they are in the US. Unfortunately. Um, you know, so
Speaker 1: it is very it is very difficult to you know
Speaker 1: what I mean. You can report on it, but it's
Speaker 1: all it's it's all. It's a very it's a very
Speaker 1: fraught narrative in Germany still, of course, and so far
Speaker 1: that the German press has been in silent. We'll see
Speaker 1: what happens when the German translation comes out. Germany, as
Speaker 1: is the US, to their massive countries, massive economies, and
Speaker 1: they're very they're insular countries. You know, they look inward,
Speaker 1: you know, because they're so big, they don't really need
Speaker 1: to look at at other you know, and and Germany itself.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not natural, per se to to to
Speaker 1: take over what the English language press is is writing.
Speaker 1: You know, you saw that with many things that happened,
Speaker 1: like when the Built editor in chief was fired only
Speaker 1: after Ben Smith of the of then of the New
Speaker 1: York Times still wrote a column about his about his
Speaker 1: you know, his sexual madrassment cases are wrong. I mean,
Speaker 1: these were facts were known in Germany for for for
Speaker 1: months and months already, you know, they were, but only
Speaker 1: after New York Times because of course, because actual Springer,
Speaker 1: the conglomerate that owns Built just bought political for a billion.
Speaker 1: They were realized, Okay, our business enterts are at risk here.
Speaker 1: You know, it's a story with wire Card. I don't
Speaker 1: know if you followed that story that the Ft journalist
Speaker 1: Dan McCrum reported on incredibly well, um, you know they didn't.
Speaker 1: They accused FT of the German Stock Market Regulator Um.
Speaker 1: The accus c FT of basically manipulating and Dan crum
Speaker 1: was was sued in Germany for his reporting, you know,
Speaker 1: until until wire Card went bankrupt and filed for insolvency
Speaker 1: and now the CEO is in pretties on trial and
Speaker 1: the CFO is missing. It was it was, you know,
Speaker 1: prepared to be a Russian spy. I mean, this is
Speaker 1: also story you guys should look in because it's so
Speaker 1: it's such a good story. Den mcrumb is coming up
Speaker 1: with his book Layer this year, and I'm sure it's
Speaker 1: gonna make a huge class because the guys stories about
Speaker 1: wire Card or wild so so often nothing happens in
Speaker 1: Germany until stories are reported in the English language press.
Speaker 1: But it also takes a little bit, you know for
Speaker 1: things to land in German. You know, it's Germany's in
Speaker 1: many ways, it's old fashioned. It's an old fashioned country
Speaker 1: in many, many ways. Yeah, it's going, it's having your
Speaker 1: right direction, but but you know it still has a big,
Speaker 1: big ways to go. All right, So May five, we're
Speaker 1: gonna set our set our alarms here to know, ex
Speaker 1: keep an eye on dear Spiegel. Yeah, we've first thank
Speaker 1: you for being so generous with your time, David, as
Speaker 1: as you can tell and as our as our listeners
Speaker 1: can tell as well, we agree that humanity, civilization owes
Speaker 1: it to itself to be transparent about these stories, even
Speaker 1: even if they seem to make people uncomfortable. I would say,
Speaker 1: especially if they seem to make people uncomfortable because they're
Speaker 1: discomfited for a reason. In with with this, uh, what
Speaker 1: we can say is we wanted to hold off on
Speaker 1: this interview until the book was out now, so so
Speaker 1: now that the book is out in the world, you
Speaker 1: can find Nazi Billionaires The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest
Speaker 1: Dynasties anywhere good books are sold. German listeners, as as
Speaker 1: David and Matt pointed out, the German edition is coming
Speaker 1: up May five, keep an eye on the news on
Speaker 1: the other side of the pond. And with this you know,
Speaker 1: I I know we're talking a little bit off air,
Speaker 1: but you're already onto some new projects, is that correct? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm moving to to the Middle East, moving to Tel Aviv.
Speaker 1: To be more specific. My partner has a job. She's
Speaker 1: the the new correspondent for German TV for Israel and
Speaker 1: the Palestinian territories, and she has already moved here in
Speaker 1: August said, I mean, can you imagine it off for
Speaker 1: a job in journalism, then being the German Core TV
Speaker 1: correspondent for German television in Israel and preston in territories.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have so much respect for her. She's
Speaker 1: she's an incredible reporter and incredible hard worker and somebody
Speaker 1: who studied both Arabic and Hebrew university and just you know,
Speaker 1: um amazed that that that that I get to be
Speaker 1: with her, such an incredible woman. We wish her safety
Speaker 1: just yeah, I mean yeah, just reading news from from
Speaker 1: that region and on this other on this other side
Speaker 1: of the world, there's a tremendous sense of you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's dangerous, it is it is, yes, absolutely, And I'll
Speaker 1: be covering the Middle East, the larger Middle East, um
Speaker 1: from from from Tel Aviv. Um, still covering financial and
Speaker 1: finance and business as usual. Okay, well, can't wait to
Speaker 1: learn about you know, the oil money. It's gonna be exciting, yes,
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's gonna be a lot of focus on
Speaker 1: the Gulf and dude, yeah all right. Well, David, is
Speaker 1: there a specific place that people should go to to
Speaker 1: get your book? If you want to order it to online,
Speaker 1: do a bookshop dot org because I support local booksellers
Speaker 1: and independent bookstores. They need all the help they can get.
Speaker 1: UM and you know you can find me on Twitter
Speaker 1: and Instagram at David de Young. And with that, folks,
Speaker 1: we are going to call it a day. Get the
Speaker 1: to your local bookstore and find out more about this
Speaker 1: very important story. Very powerful people would rather you not here. Uh.
Speaker 1: We can't thank you enough, David, for being so generous,
Speaker 1: as we said, with your time today, and we cannot
Speaker 1: thank you enough for the herculean amount of research that
Speaker 1: you have put into this. I I knew it was
Speaker 1: serious when I was I was Matt and I were
Speaker 1: lucky enough to read advanced copies. And I opened the
Speaker 1: book and one of the first things I see are
Speaker 1: this collection of maps, and I think, okay, this is
Speaker 1: gonna be one of those things where you don't read
Speaker 1: it straight through. I'm gonna have to go back to
Speaker 1: some stuff, and so I broke out, broke out some
Speaker 1: sticky notes and con track. Yeah, and we're just we're
Speaker 1: grateful this is in the world and we can't wait
Speaker 1: to see where this adventure takes you. But please stay
Speaker 1: safe and uh and we'll talk with you soon. Thank
Speaker 1: you very much for having me ben in, Matt. It's
Speaker 1: really a pleasure. And as always, if you would like
Speaker 1: to connect with us regarding ideas for a future episode,
Speaker 1: regarding your own experience with Hidden History, we'd love to
Speaker 1: hear from you. We try to be easy to find
Speaker 1: online Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, all the hits, all the good ones,
Speaker 1: and if you don't like the online stuff, you don't
Speaker 1: sip the social meds. We have another way to contact us,
Speaker 1: that's right. Our phone number is one eight three three
Speaker 1: st d w y t K. When you call it,
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