Speaker 1: Well, Black Friday is on the way, and it's a
Speaker 1: time when a lot of people have to face what
Speaker 1: could be fairly called an addiction to shopping. And today's
Speaker 1: episode is about addiction. All the way back in Guys,
Speaker 1: we were talking about addiction in a way that still
Speaker 1: needs to be explored today. It's true, and it's something
Speaker 1: that we're seeing a lot of movement in um in
Speaker 1: terms of the acceptance of psychedelics and various kinds of
Speaker 1: treatments for depression and anxiety. And it's something that's still
Speaker 1: very much progressing and we're keeping an eye on. But
Speaker 1: here's us talking about it and more of the early
Speaker 1: days from UFOs two, Ghosts and government cover ups. History
Speaker 1: is world with unexplained events. You can turn back now
Speaker 1: or learn the stuff they don't want you to. Now.
Speaker 1: Little by little, I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented
Speaker 1: colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes.
Speaker 1: Kaleidoscopic fantastic images surged eaten on me, alternating variegated opening
Speaker 1: and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in
Speaker 1: colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves. The constant clocks Ben.
Speaker 1: Are you okay? Oh yeah, I'm fine. I'm actually just
Speaker 1: reading a quotation from guy named Albert Hoffman. This comes
Speaker 1: from April nineteenth, ninety three, a day that some of
Speaker 1: you out there will recognize for its importance. But who
Speaker 1: are you again? What are we doing? Oh? Yeah? This okay?
Speaker 1: So we're in the podcast room. My name is Matt,
Speaker 1: and then we're here with our super producer, Noel Owsley Brown,
Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Yes,
Speaker 1: are you doing all right, Matt? Yeah, I'm fine, man,
Speaker 1: everything's good in the neighborhood, right, yes, right, and just
Speaker 1: look a little paranoid, a little different. No, No, I'm fine.
Speaker 1: I just want to talk about Albert Hoffman, right, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: it tell us about Albert Hoffman. So he's the guy
Speaker 1: who is considered the person who discovered LSD as a
Speaker 1: hallucinogen because he took a famous bike ride, right, he
Speaker 1: accidentally spilled a little on himself. Yes, and took the
Speaker 1: most astonishing bike ride in history up to that time,
Speaker 1: probably since the invention of the penny farthing. This idea
Speaker 1: of LSD as a hallucinogen was relatively new, but LSD
Speaker 1: had been synthesized before and since that time, numerous people
Speaker 1: have claimed that LSD and other drugs called hallucinogens have
Speaker 1: abilities far beyond those of the typical recreational drugs like
Speaker 1: alcohol or marijuana. That's right, and there are lots of
Speaker 1: weird stories that go along with LSD that kind of
Speaker 1: create this, uh, this mythos of LSD. There's one that's
Speaker 1: kind of a true story about Francis Crick. You may
Speaker 1: have heard that name before, and how he quote discovered
Speaker 1: the double helix shape of DNA that we're all familiar
Speaker 1: with while he was on an acid trip. However, while
Speaker 1: it is true that Crick and James Watson, along with
Speaker 1: Maurice Wilkins did work on d n A, they didn't
Speaker 1: necessarily discover it right. The person who is the m
Speaker 1: v P of the DNA story there is a British
Speaker 1: biophysicist named Rosalind Franklin. She photographed DNA, but she was
Speaker 1: snubbed at the Nobel Prize ceremony. She also died for
Speaker 1: years before it was awarded, And for those familiar with
Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize, you'll recall that they are not awarded posthumously.
Speaker 1: But it sounds like Crick and Watson. Crick and Watson
Speaker 1: snubbed her. Make no mistake, Crick huge fan of l
Speaker 1: s D. But that story in itself has uh grains
Speaker 1: of things that are not entirely true. And if you
Speaker 1: if you hear a lot of people talking about Krick,
Speaker 1: make sure that you mentioned Roslyn Franklin as well. There is, however,
Speaker 1: a story about LSD which is absolutely true. It's the
Speaker 1: old tale you may have heard about once upon a
Speaker 1: time a professional baseball player here in the States being
Speaker 1: just tripping balls high out of his mind, literally, yes,
Speaker 1: and pitching a no hitter. And there have only been
Speaker 1: I think maybe two hundred and forty seven no hitters
Speaker 1: in the history of pro baseball. Yeah, not many, but
Speaker 1: listeners right, And I'm sure our baseball fans will check
Speaker 1: me on this one because I can't remember where I
Speaker 1: found that number. But how did this happen? Matt Well,
Speaker 1: The gentleman's name is Doc Ellis, and there's a documentary
Speaker 1: out on Netflix right now. You can watch called No No,
Speaker 1: a documentary with spelled D O c K. It's pretty funny.
Speaker 1: I actually watched it. This is one of my father
Speaker 1: in law's favorite stories. So Doc Ellis was kind of
Speaker 1: known for uh doing some strange things while he was pitching,
Speaker 1: like he was the Belushi of the Pirates. He really was. Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, when when he did this, he he he
Speaker 1: said that time slowed down, right, the size of the
Speaker 1: ball would change while he was on the field. Um.
Speaker 1: In the documentary, just he kind of makes light of it. Actually,
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, it wasn't even a really a big deal, right,
Speaker 1: but it really did happen. And unfortunately, his drug uses
Speaker 1: probably part of the reason that he did not go
Speaker 1: on to continue his rise to fame. But that story
Speaker 1: is absolutely true, and there are other stories with varying
Speaker 1: degrees of truth about the strange and at this point
Speaker 1: still mysterious interaction that hallucinations can have with the human
Speaker 1: beings brain. But there is one big question that comes
Speaker 1: up time and time again and isn't encountering a resurgence
Speaker 1: in popular culture today, and that is this, so can
Speaker 1: hallucinogens Can these substances have some kind of curative effect
Speaker 1: when dealing with things like addiction? Ah, yes, addiction. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's an ugly topic, but let's let's talk about it
Speaker 1: just for a little bit. For some people, addiction is
Speaker 1: like a ghost to a skeptic. Right, It's something you
Speaker 1: might not necessarily believe in because you have not encountered
Speaker 1: it yourself, But you still find yourself whistling, ever so
Speaker 1: uncomfortably when you walk through a dark place at night. Right.
Speaker 1: For others, the term addiction conjures the image of someone
Speaker 1: in their life, a friend, a relative, a love one
Speaker 1: gone or on the way out, like a guttering candle.
Speaker 1: For others, the word addiction invokes a shame, right, a
Speaker 1: memory or a desire for substance, behavior, an action, or feeling.
Speaker 1: But what is clinically speaking, what is an addiction? Right? Well,
Speaker 1: clinically speaking, it's a primary chronic disease of brain reward.
Speaker 1: It's something like a motivation or a memory or some
Speaker 1: kind of related circuitry in the brain that associates one
Speaker 1: thing with pleasure usually right, And that is a very
Speaker 1: important thing to note for our purposes today. An addiction
Speaker 1: has a physiological observable, a process in the human body
Speaker 1: and effect. So of addiction there's a quotation or addiction
Speaker 1: affects neurotransmission and interactions within reward structures of the brain,
Speaker 1: including the nucleus acumbans, the anterior singulate cortex, the basil forebrain,
Speaker 1: the amygdala, such that motivational hierarchies are altered and addictive
Speaker 1: behaviors supplant healthy self care related behavior. So what this
Speaker 1: means is it's kind of a it's it's kind of
Speaker 1: a detour if your brain is an inner state, which
Speaker 1: is yeah, sure, it becomes the priority. You're gonna take
Speaker 1: this exit every time, and all the rest of the
Speaker 1: stuff on that highway doesn't matter, which could be everything
Speaker 1: from eating, from getting your body nourishment to taking care
Speaker 1: of responsibilities in your life. Yeah, and a lot of
Speaker 1: those things you hear about with addiction, the priorities or
Speaker 1: the the behaviors, right, A lot of that can be
Speaker 1: traced to specific areas of the brain. Again, one thing
Speaker 1: that is very difficult for a lot of people who
Speaker 1: are dealing with addiction or have whether it's their own
Speaker 1: addiction or someone in their life. Right. One thing that
Speaker 1: can be difficult to accept is that there is a
Speaker 1: physiological basis. It's not just someone being a jerk. Right, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: absolutely so. Um, we also know that this is a
Speaker 1: widespread problem, right, we have statistics to back it up.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are tons of statistics. This thing, addiction,
Speaker 1: this whatever you want to call it. Uh, it is rampant.
Speaker 1: There are let's see, in the U s Alone, twenty
Speaker 1: three million people over the age of twelve suffer some
Speaker 1: from some sort of addiction, either alcohol or drug related.
Speaker 1: According to the w h OH, the World Health Organization,
Speaker 1: the harmful use of alcohol alone results in three point
Speaker 1: three million deaths each year. Despite the fact that less
Speaker 1: than half of the global population drinks alcohol, so less
Speaker 1: than half of the world drinks, there are still three
Speaker 1: point three million deaths a year. Yeah, that's uh. When
Speaker 1: we say less than half, we mean a little over
Speaker 1: thirty eight percent, right, So it's still it's still more
Speaker 1: than a third of the population. I think that statistics
Speaker 1: tricky because how you phrase it. But yeah, three point
Speaker 1: three million documented deaths at least that we we're not
Speaker 1: certain at how why the methodology goes for that number.
Speaker 1: So for instance, it could just be counting uh, deaths
Speaker 1: due to srotic livers. It could be counting deaths due
Speaker 1: to drunk driving. It could and it doesn't necessarily mean addiction,
Speaker 1: right right, Like it could be an overdose or a
Speaker 1: car crash or something harmful use of alcohol is a
Speaker 1: specific phrase they used to but we we do know regardless.
Speaker 1: Um oh, and I guess we should say here, Matt two,
Speaker 1: that addiction itself is not always something like alcoholism or
Speaker 1: opium or even caffeine or nicotine or some other drug.
Speaker 1: It could be a behavioral thing that your brain has
Speaker 1: latched onto. Right, And we we've seen these kinds of
Speaker 1: addictions before, uh not in our personal lives, hopefully, But
Speaker 1: addiction is real and it's dangerous worldwide. Again, we can
Speaker 1: see the mechanisms of addiction leaving physical marks in the
Speaker 1: human brain. So given all of these, the financial and
Speaker 1: the human cost of addiction on the world on a
Speaker 1: global scale, all the way from petty crime to massive
Speaker 1: illegal drug markets. Let's take a second, Hey, HSBC, look
Speaker 1: at that. Some people still remember that you hang out
Speaker 1: hardcore with drug cartels and you haven't gotten in trouble,
Speaker 1: You haven't gotten in any serious trouble, but you you
Speaker 1: run money for drug cartels. I'm sorry to interrupt. Well,
Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say that some of the
Speaker 1: traditional programs, this the twelve step programs, they've been I
Speaker 1: don't want to say debunked, because that's not true. They've
Speaker 1: been shown to be a lot less effective than I
Speaker 1: guess we had thought. Right, Yeah, that is that is
Speaker 1: true because there are some difficulties grabbing numbers there. But
Speaker 1: also at this point, research has shown that there are
Speaker 1: several factors that may contribute to a better chance at
Speaker 1: rehabilitation from addiction, you know, like a support of community,
Speaker 1: of family, a sense of purpose, things like that. However,
Speaker 1: there is no one size fits all solution at this point.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Now, this is something that we kind of
Speaker 1: want to look at that doesn't maybe it doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: pertain in this episode. I'm not sure. Let's let's let's
Speaker 1: look into it and see what you think. Um, So,
Speaker 1: do are there governments and corporations out there that don't
Speaker 1: necessarily want people to be free from addiction? Okay, I see, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think I see where you're going. Right, Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think what I'm trying to say is money, Well yeah, money,
Speaker 1: but also also control. And this is this is a tangent,
Speaker 1: it's a bit conspiratorial. But we do know that this
Speaker 1: kind of encouragement of addiction has occurred at a state
Speaker 1: level before. In the Opium Wars, right, the primary British
Speaker 1: export that they were pushing was opium, which can have
Speaker 1: a horrendous effect on a population, right, and and it did,
Speaker 1: and the Opium Wars were essentially an economic attempt to
Speaker 1: establish you know, severenity over an independent civilization. Right. But
Speaker 1: it's true, It's totally true the British were slinging opium
Speaker 1: and encouraging addiction amongst these people. And arguably, especially if
Speaker 1: you're Gary Webb, you would say that that occurred more
Speaker 1: recently in the States, and while the British government was
Speaker 1: profiting like gangbusters because they were just shipping opium out
Speaker 1: like crazy, right yeah, yeah, yeah, Um, So there is
Speaker 1: truth that drugs could be used to divide and control
Speaker 1: of population in a more i guess, a more current stance.
Speaker 1: Iran has all but openly accused Western powers of financing
Speaker 1: an illegal drug trade to destabilize the country, and crystal
Speaker 1: meth is quickly replacing or quickly catching up to opium.
Speaker 1: Is one of the most abused drugs. And another thing
Speaker 1: we talked about in our episode on the DPRK was
Speaker 1: their meth habits. Right, Yeah, there's also a massive rise
Speaker 1: in the use of crystal meth there in DPRK or
Speaker 1: North Korea, so we have to have that question present
Speaker 1: when we ask ourselves about the nature of addiction and
Speaker 1: addiction treatment. We've seen a lot of studies, especially in
Speaker 1: Western Europe, which is on the whole a little bit
Speaker 1: more humane with its treatment of prisoners or people on
Speaker 1: the wrong side of the law, And what they've found
Speaker 1: is that they have more success when they have rehabilitation
Speaker 1: centers rather than I guess punitive measures at the forefront. Right.
Speaker 1: But also, these are very different places, very from population,
Speaker 1: So I'm not by a new means saying it's a
Speaker 1: one to one comparison. Yeah, the enclosed culture is so different.
Speaker 1: I would be interested to see how one of those
Speaker 1: facilities would function in the US, right, Yeah, So where
Speaker 1: do hallucinogens fit in with this? If we if we
Speaker 1: go past the tangent, then we do really want to
Speaker 1: hear what you think about it. If addiction is a
Speaker 1: thing that can be fully found in the human brain,
Speaker 1: a real thing, not an attitude, right, not an opinion,
Speaker 1: but a a neurochemical, neurological thing, then where do hallucinogens
Speaker 1: fit in with this? Right? Because hallucinogens are drugs, right, sure? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean totally legally, definitely technically, So let's look at
Speaker 1: the definition here, or just define some things before we
Speaker 1: hop in. So, hallucination is a substance, such as a drug,
Speaker 1: that causes people to see or sense things that are
Speaker 1: not real. It's also a substance that causes the hallucinations. Now,
Speaker 1: I know it sounds pretty simple, maybe a little too simple,
Speaker 1: but there are three common types of hallucinogens. Okay, there
Speaker 1: are There are psychedelics, there are dissociatives, and there are deliriums.
Speaker 1: So let's look at LSD, which we mentioned at the
Speaker 1: very top with Albert Hoffman. It's a psychedelic like mescaline
Speaker 1: or d m T, which we have an episode on.
Speaker 1: If you're interested, check it out, it's in the video category.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, there's still quite a few questions about
Speaker 1: what exactly LSD or mescaline or d MT due to
Speaker 1: the human brain. While they could be classified as hallucinogens
Speaker 1: together in a group, it doesn't mean that they are
Speaker 1: the exact same. Thing We think that might it might
Speaker 1: work is what's called a five H T two a
Speaker 1: receptor agonist. But again, we think this basically means that
Speaker 1: one of the mechanisms they see it doing is that
Speaker 1: it binds to serotonin receptors. However, pleasure centers right, yes,
Speaker 1: serotonin the field goods uh, the scratches behind the ears
Speaker 1: of your brain. However, Uh, there haven't been many, at
Speaker 1: least publicized studies on neurological effects or processes of LSD experimentation,
Speaker 1: but it has been studied as a possible treatment for alcoholism.
Speaker 1: And we'll have more on that in a second, because
Speaker 1: that's not the only drug. We'll talk about too, Like
Speaker 1: what's a disassociative. So dissociative is something like ketamine K
Speaker 1: special K special K, which confused me because you know
Speaker 1: I'm square when I here. Uh have this is These
Speaker 1: have been used experimentally to treat heroin addiction, or at
Speaker 1: least there are attempts currently to try and make that work.
Speaker 1: And deliriums that third thing. These are a little bit
Speaker 1: less fun, but they're fascinating to talk about. You may
Speaker 1: have heard about things like Ban Drake or Deadly Nightshade
Speaker 1: or Jimps and we you know the witchcraft stuff. I've
Speaker 1: heard of some of that from my RPGs that I play, right, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you can collect Man Drake and a lot
Speaker 1: of RPGs. So these plants contain a thing called atropine,
Speaker 1: which is considered an essential medicine by the World's Health
Speaker 1: Organization because as a variety of uses. However, if you
Speaker 1: go to UM a website called arrowwood dot com, which
Speaker 1: has it's like a user run thing about a user
Speaker 1: run forum about drug use, people talk about their experiences, right, right,
Speaker 1: And we're not in any way, of course, condoning the
Speaker 1: use of something illegal, because if you use something illegal,
Speaker 1: then the consequences are probably going to outnumber the benefits, right,
Speaker 1: It's true. But but on that site, I would say
Speaker 1: it is it is maybe a helpful tool to see
Speaker 1: some of the negative and positive experiences with drugs if
Speaker 1: you're trying to get an objective viewpoint sure of what
Speaker 1: it is like to do that drug. Sure, I'm just
Speaker 1: saying that if you're going to take an illegal drug
Speaker 1: because you think it will help you quit smoking or something,
Speaker 1: that's that's that's a terrible reason to go to jail,
Speaker 1: because I'm sure you'll go to a nons fucking jail
Speaker 1: find a clinical trial. That's all I could say. So,
Speaker 1: but this is this is the thing, these deliriums, right,
Speaker 1: this atropine. Most people, at least the people we found
Speaker 1: on rowit and people who had talked about trying it
Speaker 1: uh did not seem keen to repeat the experience. This
Speaker 1: seems one of the more unpleasant drugs to do. But
Speaker 1: if we put all of this together, it turns out
Speaker 1: that this general group of drugs making neurochemical changes to
Speaker 1: parts of the brain might also, as a side effect,
Speaker 1: disrupt that cycle of reward and motivation, the engine powering addiction.
Speaker 1: So we know that these different drugs have all been
Speaker 1: used two hopefully to combat some form of addiction. Right,
Speaker 1: that's right. And these substances, these these drugs, hallucinogens have
Speaker 1: been they've been tested for quite a while, maybe maybe
Speaker 1: not a long time. Well, you can go back through
Speaker 1: history and you can look at some of the tribes
Speaker 1: that use things like ayahuasca, and you can say hundreds
Speaker 1: of years, sometimes thousands of years. But if we go
Speaker 1: back to the nineteen sixties, we can actually look at
Speaker 1: colleges like Harvard who were who were conducting studies with hallucinogens.
Speaker 1: You can look at the Harvard psilocybin project. This was
Speaker 1: um a study by Timothy Leary and Richard Albert, you
Speaker 1: might recognize those names. It was done at the Department
Speaker 1: of Psychology at Harvard from nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty three. Uh.
Speaker 1: In these studies, psilocybin was administered to volunteer subjects. These
Speaker 1: were mostly graduate students, a couple of times undergraduate students,
Speaker 1: and that's why the studies stopped in nineteen sixty three. UM.
Speaker 1: But the way they were studied, this is what they
Speaker 1: would do, Ben. They would have these graduate students come
Speaker 1: into their the place where they were testing, and both
Speaker 1: the subject and the tester, the person who was supposedly
Speaker 1: administering this thing, would take psilocybin and they would see
Speaker 1: what happened to make recording of it. And that was
Speaker 1: the extent of their testing. That sounds a little bit
Speaker 1: like just people hanging out and recording themselves doing drugs, right,
Speaker 1: And that's what a lot of the faculty at the
Speaker 1: at Harvard said, And that's ultimately I think why it
Speaker 1: got shut down. But then those two guys Leary and
Speaker 1: Albert Albert became rom Doss Timothy Leary. They both became
Speaker 1: huge members of the counterculture with hallucinogens. Yeah, you're right,
Speaker 1: turn on tune in drop out. I think that's the
Speaker 1: way it went exactly. Then you've got a second one
Speaker 1: at Harvard. Ben I'm just gonna mention really fast. I
Speaker 1: found pretty pretty funny. It was called the Good Friday Experiment. Now,
Speaker 1: this one was actually a double blind test, unlike the
Speaker 1: Delirian Albert study, where there were there were twenty students
Speaker 1: who were given capsules. Each one is given a capsule.
Speaker 1: Ten of them had psilocybin in them. Uh, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure about the dosage. It didn't say in the document
Speaker 1: I was reading. But then the other ten had an
Speaker 1: active placebo and nice cnic acid. It'll give you nice
Speaker 1: and rush, so you feel like something's going on, but
Speaker 1: there's no hallucinogen. And nice and rush also used in scientology.
Speaker 1: The it gets your skin hot, kind of itchy, and
Speaker 1: you feel flushed. That's one of the big that's one
Speaker 1: of the biggest, most obvious symptoms, but you definitely feel
Speaker 1: like something's happening exactly. So what they did is they
Speaker 1: have all all these twenty students went in, they took
Speaker 1: their pill, and they went to a Good Friday service
Speaker 1: at Harvard. This was done at Harvard University, but it
Speaker 1: was at Boston University where they went to a Good
Speaker 1: Friday service, and eight of the ten who received the
Speaker 1: hallucinogen reported to quote mystical experiences. Though it is kind
Speaker 1: of funny. One of the students apparently had to be
Speaker 1: restrained and given thorazine, which is an anti psychotic, after
Speaker 1: he ran around, ran out of the chapel down the
Speaker 1: street and proclaimed that he had to tell the whole
Speaker 1: world about the new Messiah coming in. So that's one
Speaker 1: of those stories that you would hear in the news
Speaker 1: maybe about a drug like this. Yeah. And one thing
Speaker 1: that's what's fascinating there is that we see if you
Speaker 1: check out studies like that UM and Leaving Alone, m
Speaker 1: k Ultra and other Seattle experiments, because those those happened
Speaker 1: as well, and those those were not related to addiction
Speaker 1: as much as they were the possibility of controlling someone. Right.
Speaker 1: But one thing that all of those studies show is
Speaker 1: that the usual patterns of the way your mind works.
Speaker 1: If we go with the inner stated, the road system
Speaker 1: UH starts to get teach wars, it gets chaotic. Traffic
Speaker 1: is weird, you know what I mean? The same roads
Speaker 1: you drive every day don't lead you to the same
Speaker 1: place cognitively, the whole road becomes hyperdimensional, right, and where
Speaker 1: are we? What? What is this thing asking we? Uh
Speaker 1: So there's another study that that applies this, this iebo
Speaker 1: gain stuff, which has been used as a bark showed
Speaker 1: by various tribes I think, including people identifying as the
Speaker 1: pygmy people. Uh. This this has been used as in
Speaker 1: small amounts as a stimulant and larger amounts to encourage
Speaker 1: a mystical experience. In study called the Treatment of Acute
Speaker 1: opioid withdrawal with iebo gain found that it's a promising
Speaker 1: tool for combating heroin addiction. And the study specifically argues,
Speaker 1: and this is something that's weird to mean. The study
Speaker 1: specifically argues that chemists should make a form of the
Speaker 1: drug divorced from the psychoactive feelings that yates that instead, uh,
Speaker 1: this should be this should just function like methodone, right,
Speaker 1: like nothing own remove some of the pain of heroin withdrawal,
Speaker 1: but doesn't get you high, if I understand, or it's
Speaker 1: similar to this is a thing that's happening here in Georgia.
Speaker 1: It's similar to the Yeah, the politicians who want to
Speaker 1: take a moral stance and they say, well, we're going
Speaker 1: to make this thing purely as a medicine, and we
Speaker 1: assure you, we can ensure you one thing. Definitely, it
Speaker 1: is a medicine and it won't be something people will
Speaker 1: do for fun. And that's that's because you know, here
Speaker 1: in the States, there is this the state this country
Speaker 1: is very very different to Portugal or some other place. Right. Uh,
Speaker 1: there are punitive measures taken for drug abuse, and there
Speaker 1: is a very very strong argument that, uh, this attitude
Speaker 1: is economically motivated, right, but so so I think that's weird.
Speaker 1: But what they found in this Eyebo Gain study is
Speaker 1: that it did work. It helped people get off heroin,
Speaker 1: which is a tremendously difficult drug to to free oneself from,
Speaker 1: and other studies indicate that it has been useful in
Speaker 1: treating other other issues, not necessarily addiction issues, but other
Speaker 1: issues dating all the way back to n Yeah, the
Speaker 1: CIA studied it in the fifties and one of the
Speaker 1: one of the things that you'll read often is people
Speaker 1: have even used it to get folks off of addiction
Speaker 1: to crack cocaine. Yeah, I man, people aren't tremendously sure.
Speaker 1: How they estimate that there are maybe two two big
Speaker 1: things that occur here. The first is metabolic, so ibocame
Speaker 1: creates a protein that blocks receptors in the brain that
Speaker 1: trigger those cravings. So it kind of nips withdrawal in
Speaker 1: the bud because your brain doesn't recognize that at once
Speaker 1: that itch scratched, right. Yeah, And here's the weird thing.
Speaker 1: It tends to remove those withdrawals immediately, just like that,
Speaker 1: bringing people back to their pre addiction stage and a
Speaker 1: normal rehabilitation. That journey can take months. The second effect
Speaker 1: is much less clinical. It's where we verge into the
Speaker 1: philosophical spiritual stuff, which is that a bocane seems to
Speaker 1: inspire a dream like state with intense introspection, so people,
Speaker 1: you know, journey back through the matrix of their mind
Speaker 1: and find out, you know, they look at themselves from
Speaker 1: outside in. I guess that's one of the things that
Speaker 1: I keep hearing as I was looking into this. It's
Speaker 1: that these psychedelics, more so than anything, give a wider perspective,
Speaker 1: almost perspective outside of the ego of the person who
Speaker 1: is going through addiction, and there they can finally look
Speaker 1: at themselves and say, why the heck am I doing this?
Speaker 1: At least that's that's that seems to be the common
Speaker 1: thread that I've been reading throughout these studies. But IP again,
Speaker 1: isn't the only thing that they've been testing, not just psilocybin,
Speaker 1: not just LSD. UM. If you look at ketamine, it's
Speaker 1: been used in psychotherapy for heroin addiction as well. Uh,
Speaker 1: it appears to have immediate effects. And also, um, they
Speaker 1: I think there's a study where they did a two
Speaker 1: year follow up already, So they looked at patients, um
Speaker 1: who are who are using ketamine as a psychotherapy, and
Speaker 1: they seem to be less likely to to relapse after
Speaker 1: two years. They also seem to be less likely to
Speaker 1: crave heroin, which is really nice, right. Yeah, And then
Speaker 1: if we go back, I think we mentioned earlier this
Speaker 1: study on LSD and alcoholism to write in two thousand twelves,
Speaker 1: some researchers Terry Krebs and Paul or John found that
Speaker 1: they did a retrospective analysis. So what that means is
Speaker 1: they took a bunch of existing studies from the sixties
Speaker 1: and the seventies, they put them all together. They ran
Speaker 1: the numbers on the results across all of these studies,
Speaker 1: many by people who did not know one another. And
Speaker 1: what they found is that fifty of people who took
Speaker 1: LSD in these studies who are alcoholics reported lower levels
Speaker 1: of alcohol abuse compared to thirty eight percent of people
Speaker 1: receiving a placebo. So there especially, and I know those
Speaker 1: numbers might not sound super impressive if it were one study,
Speaker 1: but across multiple studies spanning decades, that is a compelling point.
Speaker 1: And these types of trials, it seems, are continuing, if anything,
Speaker 1: experiencing a bit of a renaissance, which leads me to
Speaker 1: a question, Matt, what why did this take solong? If
Speaker 1: addiction is such a big problem, then why didn't doctors
Speaker 1: and governments go down this route earlier? Well, because of Nixon,
Speaker 1: Ben that's I'm just kidding, because not just because it's
Speaker 1: because of things that were put in place during the
Speaker 1: Knicks administration though about classifying Schedule one drugs with hallucinogens
Speaker 1: other even marijuana. Uh, some of the uses of th
Speaker 1: HC in high enough doses can be hallucinogens. And there
Speaker 1: are all these drugs that were placed under this restrictive
Speaker 1: Schedule one tier. And uh, I think that's why because
Speaker 1: doctors nobody wants there there you know, prestigious university or
Speaker 1: wherever you're going to be conducting studies to be you know,
Speaker 1: using illegal substances, right, because Schedule one is bad business
Speaker 1: here here in the US, drugs are classified according to
Speaker 1: these groups that are for some reason called a schedule,
Speaker 1: which has to be so confusing if you've never heard
Speaker 1: of it. So they're like schedule to schedule three. Schedule
Speaker 1: one is the worst of the bunch. No medical use,
Speaker 1: no medicinal value. Yeah, what highly highly addictive, high likelihood
Speaker 1: of of health effects, right of of dilatorious effects on
Speaker 1: your health. There's something I can't remember the exact wording,
Speaker 1: but the biggest one is no medical use, right, there's
Speaker 1: no reason to prescribe it. And certain things have in
Speaker 1: the past been missed, placed in that schedule or moved,
Speaker 1: but it's very, very difficult, right to get that changed.
Speaker 1: And of course there are conspiracy theories, especially if you
Speaker 1: go back to the idea of control, several of which
Speaker 1: you can hear in our earlier shows. Yeah, we highly
Speaker 1: recommend you check it out. What do we do? We did, um,
Speaker 1: we did the marijuana conspiracy. We did a little bit
Speaker 1: on it. I don't think we've done an audio show
Speaker 1: on it. No, there are special and d MT just
Speaker 1: about whether or not there's a whole another realm that
Speaker 1: you can access through that drug. And why so many
Speaker 1: people taking d m T tend to report the same
Speaker 1: or very similar experiences energy beings or the gnomes, the
Speaker 1: machine els or the spirit machines. But again then and
Speaker 1: I would just like to say, we are not encouraging
Speaker 1: anyone to go out and do these things legally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: consult your doctor, don't do it illegally. It's not. It
Speaker 1: just seems so ironic and terrible and unfair, I know,
Speaker 1: for someone who has a problem that they feel might
Speaker 1: be helped, you know, uh, and then find themselves in
Speaker 1: jail or even prison for attempting to do it. And
Speaker 1: unfortunately that is that is a possible consequence. Also, Matt,
Speaker 1: neither of us are doctors. Um No, I don't think
Speaker 1: you're a doctor. No, is more of a doctor of love,
Speaker 1: you know. But so we we know that other people
Speaker 1: have experimented with this. Let's talk about Bill Wilson, one
Speaker 1: of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. He tried LSD in
Speaker 1: a study and it inspired him, in part to start
Speaker 1: Alcoholics Anonymous, and he even told other members of the
Speaker 1: organization to try it out. But however, the fellowship at
Speaker 1: large disagreed because and I see how this is, this
Speaker 1: is a valid point to them, They said, the the
Speaker 1: idea of treating those who cannot control their substance use
Speaker 1: with another substance seemed then is now heretical. Uh. The
Speaker 1: link between spirituality and sobriety, however, remains a mainstay of
Speaker 1: the modern a recovery thing. Which is interesting because Bill
Speaker 1: Wilson said that he had a mystic experience, like a
Speaker 1: spiritual experience, and that story comes to us by a
Speaker 1: writer named Kelly board Debt writing for The Fix. So
Speaker 1: if we look at that, the politics of alcoholics anonymous,
Speaker 1: or at least that's the opinion that piece may have
Speaker 1: held back some progress on LSD. Now that's a very
Speaker 1: small part of it, of course, because as you said,
Speaker 1: the seventies, the the scheduling of stuff is really what
Speaker 1: was a hindrance to this kind of research. But these
Speaker 1: aren't the only things holding back these studies. Let's look
Speaker 1: an example. Dr John Halpern. He's the head of the
Speaker 1: Laboratory for Integrative Psychiatry at the McLean Hospital. He's running
Speaker 1: an m d M A cancer study. Well, he told
Speaker 1: The New York Times, quote, what drug company is going
Speaker 1: to invest millions in a substance widely available in our
Speaker 1: flora and fauna? Government regulations are predictively tight. Also, stigma
Speaker 1: looms large for those interested scientists. Okay, so that sounds
Speaker 1: like there are a couple of different things going on there.
Speaker 1: One it's there. This seems like there's not much of
Speaker 1: a financial incentive, especially if something's already on a schedule,
Speaker 1: to to pay for it. Yeah, because you can go
Speaker 1: out and pick it, is what this guy is saying.
Speaker 1: Why would you pay for it when you can walk outside?
Speaker 1: Why would you monetize Ahaska or something? Right? Uh? And
Speaker 1: then or what would be the use? And then it
Speaker 1: also sounds like the straight government regulations up the price
Speaker 1: tag even more. The stigma part is interesting to me
Speaker 1: because academic stigma is such a big deal, and more
Speaker 1: so than people know outside of the Ivory Tower. It's
Speaker 1: chilling to wonder how many legitimate things have been shut
Speaker 1: down because they didn't fit with the current orthodoxy of
Speaker 1: a given discipline, or we're just chosen not to even
Speaker 1: be be looked into by someone because they were afraid
Speaker 1: of that stigma. And but there's another reason here too,
Speaker 1: and I think that's a great point. You don't want
Speaker 1: to risk your career for something that ends up being malarkey. Right.
Speaker 1: There is another point here though, that is exciting dangerous territory.
Speaker 1: We we mean, the human species, don't know a lot
Speaker 1: about how many of these drugs work. I mean, m
Speaker 1: d m A doesn't just show promise for cancer, it
Speaker 1: shows promise for uh post traumatic stress disorder treatment. Right,
Speaker 1: But like the rest of these drugs, it has side
Speaker 1: effects that we have yet to comprehend. And the analogy
Speaker 1: it makes me think of is it might be the
Speaker 1: equivalent of trying to shave with a chainsaw. I mean,
Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna get the hair off, but what
Speaker 1: else will you lose in the process? Or So, if
Speaker 1: you want to learn more about all of this stuff,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of places you can go. One
Speaker 1: of them is MAPS dot org. That's the Multidisciplinary Association
Speaker 1: for Psychedelic Studies again, that's MAPS, m APS dot org. Yes,
Speaker 1: and we have a question for you as well, listeners,
Speaker 1: do you think this research has been actively suppressed? We
Speaker 1: hear this sometimes in stories that relate to uh, you know,
Speaker 1: the the idea of cure for HIV or a cure
Speaker 1: for cancer. Is there is there a silver bullet cure
Speaker 1: for addiction that was being suppressed? And if so, why
Speaker 1: we know there's a stigma for scientists. We know, you know, Matt,
Speaker 1: as you said that the anti drug culture of the
Speaker 1: seventies in this in the West, at least in the States,
Speaker 1: how all this back. But as that changes, are we
Speaker 1: going to see more stuff? Or because we want to
Speaker 1: be fair to the other side, Matt, or is this
Speaker 1: a bunch of bunk by people who want to get
Speaker 1: paid to trip acid? Right? But before we move on,
Speaker 1: let's make an important point here. We want to make
Speaker 1: this abundantly clear. While we might be joking around about
Speaker 1: some aspects of this kind of stuff, we are by
Speaker 1: no means cavalier about the horrors of addiction. Statistically speaking,
Speaker 1: it is quite possible that someone listening to this show
Speaker 1: right now has some sort of relationship with an addiction,
Speaker 1: whether it's your own addiction, whether it's the addiction of
Speaker 1: someone else you know, right, And this is a disease.
Speaker 1: This is not again, this is not someone just being crappy.
Speaker 1: You know what, I mean, there there is a there's
Speaker 1: a reason for this, there's a physiological reason. This is
Speaker 1: not an attitude. And the best thing that we can do,
Speaker 1: we again being the human species, of course, is to
Speaker 1: attempt to help anyone in that kind of situation and
Speaker 1: find new ways to treat it right. And if you
Speaker 1: yourself need some sort of you know, you need some
Speaker 1: sort of help, don't know what to do, then, now,
Speaker 1: more than ever, although I hate to steal that line,
Speaker 1: it is possible to find help. So please. I know
Speaker 1: it's probably a corny cliche thing that people say, but
Speaker 1: a lot of corny and cliche things are corny and
Speaker 1: cliche because they are true. Please, it is easy, now,
Speaker 1: easier now than ever, to to find some sort of
Speaker 1: light in the darkness. With that in mind, and I
Speaker 1: pardon the soapbox, what do you think about doing some
Speaker 1: listener mail? Absolutely, Ben, I've got one right here. And
Speaker 1: this is kind of a long one listeners, So Ben
Speaker 1: and I are going to switch back and forth and
Speaker 1: uh tell you all about it. This is a message
Speaker 1: from Dan, and Dan says, hey, there, I'm a longtime
Speaker 1: fan of how stuff works, but I've only recently started
Speaker 1: listening to your particular podcast. I've listened to s Y
Speaker 1: s K that stuff you should know right back from
Speaker 1: two thousand eight, back when I was but a wee
Speaker 1: lad of fourteen, but I've rarely felt motivated to contact
Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck. Well, hey, you should contact them, dude.
Speaker 1: They'll probably listen to you. They're pretty kill, especially after
Speaker 1: the move over towards antisocial media. Your show. However, I've
Speaker 1: only just discovered suffice it to say that I haven't
Speaker 1: been seen without ear phones on since then, and with
Speaker 1: a myriad of other videos left to check out, I've
Speaker 1: been info binging and we uh, We're gonna go through
Speaker 1: parts of this story here, Dan so Dan said from
Speaker 1: a very young age, I've always just been so into learning,
Speaker 1: learning about any thing I could, discovering at first how
Speaker 1: stuff works, then later stuff you should gave me plenty
Speaker 1: and plenty to think about. And I certainly got into thinking,
Speaker 1: but as anyone who knows me knows, with me, there's
Speaker 1: always been a yearning for something more than just thinking.
Speaker 1: I got it first into psychedelics, then deeply into philosophy.
Speaker 1: I studied philosophy of religion, uh, biology, chemistry, geography, critical
Speaker 1: thinking at a level which, from what I can guess,
Speaker 1: is sort of like high school for you guys. It
Speaker 1: was at college where I first discovered critical thinking, which
Speaker 1: leads me back to the point of my email. And
Speaker 1: then he goes on to summarize just a little bit
Speaker 1: about how he passes A levels, got into a good university,
Speaker 1: and he realized that he didn't just like learning and
Speaker 1: something was missing right because he wanted to study, uh,
Speaker 1: something other than philosophy. But then he decided he needed
Speaker 1: to study philosophy, so he went to the department and
Speaker 1: asked them if he could study and their apartment. To
Speaker 1: my delight, they said that I'd impressed them so much
Speaker 1: in their interview that they'd love to have me as
Speaker 1: a student there in their faculty, but I'd have to
Speaker 1: wait until the next year because there's no way I'd
Speaker 1: be able to catch up on what I'd already missed.
Speaker 1: I was devastated. Before long, everything hit the fan. It
Speaker 1: went down the pan, out the window, to the dogs,
Speaker 1: and spread around in a few other areas. The fan
Speaker 1: was powerful. It got very messy. I won't go into
Speaker 1: the details, because I could write you ten emails about why, what, who, where?
Speaker 1: But I found myself with a pretty bad heroin addiction,
Speaker 1: and I'll summarize a little bit here. Uh. He ended
Speaker 1: up eventually dropping out of university, and he decided to
Speaker 1: go to rehabilitation, and he had a lot of help
Speaker 1: from his parents or pushing on that, and he was
Speaker 1: relatively isolated, and in this time he began focusing on
Speaker 1: what he was hearing and remembering lots of stuff he'd
Speaker 1: forgotten in his addiction. I'll pick it up here, remembering
Speaker 1: back the philosophy and book such as Manufacturing Consent by
Speaker 1: Noam Chomsky, the No Logo by Naomi Klein, as well
Speaker 1: as Existentialist and to Stop You in literature like Nausea
Speaker 1: by Sartre, Fear and Trembling by Kurky, Guard Human, All
Speaker 1: Too Human by Nietzsche, and of course Brave New World
Speaker 1: in n And He says, after leaving rehab and after
Speaker 1: many relapses right up until basically the time I found
Speaker 1: your podcast a few weeks ago, I find myself now
Speaker 1: writing this email, remembering back to my A levels and
Speaker 1: thinking myself how critical thinking classes were an odd thing
Speaker 1: to find back then. This is why I am emailing you.
Speaker 1: I am writing to thank you for confronting me with
Speaker 1: the power of critical thinking and helping me to remember
Speaker 1: why I was so fascinated with knowledge to begin with.
Speaker 1: And Dan goes on to say, thinking in itself is
Speaker 1: half of my problem. I over analyzed and overthink to
Speaker 1: the point that I have no firm ground to establish
Speaker 1: myself upon. But in discovering your podcast, I've learned some
Speaker 1: new things, been reminded of a lot I've learned before,
Speaker 1: but most importantly, been inspired to go out and learn more.
Speaker 1: I know I have the power to shape my life
Speaker 1: with knowledge, thoughts, and ideas, but I had forgotten. I
Speaker 1: don't want you to feel responsible in case I trip
Speaker 1: up again, But it is in this reignition of my
Speaker 1: passions I'm able to say no to heroin once more.
Speaker 1: This time, five or six weeks ago, I was laying
Speaker 1: in a squat injecting any vein I could find, with
Speaker 1: no friends, no family, no values, morals or any hope,
Speaker 1: just an iPod. And today I stim proud saying that,
Speaker 1: even though it's early days again, I found the courage
Speaker 1: to pick myself up off the floor yet again. It
Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you fall over as long as you
Speaker 1: can stand up afterwards. You know, Dan, we we can't
Speaker 1: read the whole letter, and they're probably parts that we
Speaker 1: shouldn't read, but uh, this this is uh, this is
Speaker 1: a powerful thing, and we I I know that I
Speaker 1: can say. I can't I can't speak for everybody on
Speaker 1: the show, but I can definitely say that keep going, man.
Speaker 1: I hope that when you hear this this this is
Speaker 1: a few months souls now, but I hope when you
Speaker 1: hear this episode that you're able to, you know, lift
Speaker 1: your chin up and think about the amazing role you're on,
Speaker 1: the amazing streak. Yeah, yeah, keep keep going strong, Dan.
Speaker 1: I think maybe you give Ben and Ben and I
Speaker 1: a little too much credit there for sure, but we
Speaker 1: are certainly glad that you appreciate what we're doing. What
Speaker 1: we're doing here, and we appreciate the effort that you're
Speaker 1: putting in every day. So keep going, man, and uh,
Speaker 1: we'll be here. So keep listening. We hope we'll be here, yes, uh.
Speaker 1: But and also for for anybody else listening, again, there
Speaker 1: are there, There is light at the end of the tunnel,
Speaker 1: and we hope that you have enjoyed this episode despite that,
Speaker 1: this is despite it being a very heavy subject um,
Speaker 1: and we will keep you updated as we learn more
Speaker 1: about the legal status of hallucinogens used to treat addiction
Speaker 1: and the upcoming studies, because there are a lot that
Speaker 1: are still out there. The one thing I'm super hooked
Speaker 1: on is caffeine, and I haven't found any study about that.
Speaker 1: You and me both, buddy, You and me both, and
Speaker 1: probably most people actually want to look around. I don't
Speaker 1: know how many people. I don't think there are many
Speaker 1: that aren't addicted to caffeine here. I don't know how
Speaker 1: we would do this job without it. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: it's strange. Oh. One. One thing for anybody who is
Speaker 1: contemplating twitting caffeine, uh you know, I guess. Do do
Speaker 1: what you will, but do be careful. If you get
Speaker 1: the caffeine headaches and you take a pain reliever to
Speaker 1: stop those headaches, check the pain reliever first, because a
Speaker 1: lot of them contain caffeine as well, and those caffeine
Speaker 1: headaches are real. I have tried a couple of times
Speaker 1: to stop, and man, I get splitting headaches when I
Speaker 1: don't have enough. That's terrifying. So anyway, wait, what what
Speaker 1: is that noise? I'm not sure, but I think it
Speaker 1: means it's him for our movement with nom Hey nel,
Speaker 1: how's it going, man? It's going okay, how are you?
Speaker 1: We're doing all right? Pretty pretty heavy subject here today.
Speaker 1: But but there's there's an inspiring thing or possible good news.
Speaker 1: You know, if we have if we have this ability
Speaker 1: being civilization, not the three of us, but if we
Speaker 1: have this ability to help people out of an addiction,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's food for thought for sure. What
Speaker 1: do you think? Yeah, I mean one thing that occurred
Speaker 1: to me when you guys were talking about alternatives for
Speaker 1: treating serious addictions like like heroin and opiate addiction. Um,
Speaker 1: how you know there aren't a ton of inroads being
Speaker 1: made to alternatives and things like a methodone And it
Speaker 1: kind of got me thinking about this documentary I saw
Speaker 1: years ago called Methodonia that's sort of about like how
Speaker 1: many methodone clinics are privately owned and almost treated like
Speaker 1: franchises like of a McDonald's or something, And so there's
Speaker 1: a lot of profit, there's a lot of money to
Speaker 1: be made in that kind of treatment. And you know,
Speaker 1: to your point of like, well, are are they really
Speaker 1: trying to get people off at are they just substituting
Speaker 1: one addiction? For another and a lot of people that
Speaker 1: that take methodon end up taking it, you know, for
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives, are for a very plent time.
Speaker 1: And it kind of got me doing a little Internet
Speaker 1: rabbit holing. And I found this article from the Boston
Speaker 1: Globe from last year about how this private equity firm
Speaker 1: Bank Capital spent seven hundred million dollars acquiring a chain
Speaker 1: of methodone clinics in the Boston area. And it just
Speaker 1: I mean not to say that because someone's making a
Speaker 1: profit on something that means necessarily an insidious thing, but
Speaker 1: it just does kind of get you thinking, especially when
Speaker 1: there are you know, more natural alternative they did not
Speaker 1: know that they were privatized. Yeah, it's a mix, but
Speaker 1: I mean there's definitely a large, a large contingent of
Speaker 1: private Methodonic clints. Well, I guess from a business perspective,
Speaker 1: it sounds terrifying to say it, but from a business perspective,
Speaker 1: there is a built in demand. Yeah, no, this might
Speaker 1: be one of the uh, this is the worst moment
Speaker 1: we've had with you. You got me internet rabbit holing.
Speaker 1: But while I was doing that, I did receive a
Speaker 1: call saying that I want a free trip to the Bahamas,
Speaker 1: so I may not be back next week to have
Speaker 1: another one of these downer moments. Oh man, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: don't don't leave us. It's a bitter sweet don't know. Man,
Speaker 1: you can skype. You can skype, man, we can skype
Speaker 1: in our producer. Yeah, let's try it. We're on the
Speaker 1: we're on the forefront. I am going to check out that.
Speaker 1: I'm going to check out that issue about privatization of
Speaker 1: methodone clinics. And also no no offense to know. But
Speaker 1: I hope that if you do go on a cruise,
Speaker 1: it's it's not too long, because you know you're part
Speaker 1: of the show, right yeah, or just take us with you, right,
Speaker 1: or take us with you right, and listeners, you are
Speaker 1: also part of the show. In our opinion, the best
Speaker 1: part of the show. So I think it's wrong for
Speaker 1: us to say we hope you enjoyed this podcast as
Speaker 1: much as we enjoyed making it. But we do hope
Speaker 1: that this piqued your interest and that you found, um,
Speaker 1: you found something worthwhile or something you want to look
Speaker 1: into more. We'd like to hear from you. You can
Speaker 1: find us on Facebook and Twitter, and we have a website. Stuff.
Speaker 1: They Don't Want you to Know dot com. Yeah, uh,
Speaker 1: it's all about the journey. When you're typing I guess
Speaker 1: I know. On that website you can see everything that
Speaker 1: we have ever done, and that's the end of this
Speaker 1: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about
Speaker 1: this episode, you can get into contact with us in
Speaker 1: a number of different ways. One of the best is
Speaker 1: to give us a call. Our number is one eight
Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. If you
Speaker 1: don't want to do that, you can send us a
Speaker 1: good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at I heart
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