Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is
Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or
Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt. Noel is on
Speaker 1: an adventure. They call me Ben when you're joined as
Speaker 1: always with our super producer team. Our good buddy Mission
Speaker 1: Control is on an adventure as well. Perhaps you will
Speaker 1: tell us about it if you return safe. In the meantime,
Speaker 1: we're joined again with our friends Maya and Seth, both
Speaker 1: of whom, by the way, spent their respective first days
Speaker 1: at work listening to one of our shows and decided
Speaker 1: to stay on. So thanks for staying. I mean, they
Speaker 1: kind of have to write that's far of a job.
Speaker 1: But still we're glad you're here. Yeah, and you guys
Speaker 1: doing alright. Thumbs up, thumbs down, All right, got some
Speaker 1: enthusiastic thumbs up. What about you, Matt, how are you?
Speaker 1: What's what's going on? Oh? Thumbs decidedly sideways. No, I'm
Speaker 1: just ding. It's great. We just launched Insomniac The Monster
Speaker 1: Presents Insomnia actually that we're working on for a long time,
Speaker 1: So I'm really excited about that. And um, I wanted
Speaker 1: to ask you, by the way, we haven't talked about
Speaker 1: it at length, but you just got back from l
Speaker 1: A on your own adventure. Yes, that's true, that's true. First,
Speaker 1: I'd like to shout out to Insomniac. I'd like to
Speaker 1: emphasize that is hosted by my long time friend, your
Speaker 1: longtime friend, as well a collaborator and my ride or
Speaker 1: dies Scott Benjamin, who will be appearing on this show
Speaker 1: very soon, hopefully if we can get him to work
Speaker 1: us into his busy schedule. Yeah, it might even happen
Speaker 1: before this episode comes out. Who knows who knows? Time is?
Speaker 1: Time is a wonky controversial thing. So if we assume
Speaker 1: that time still works the way it did when we
Speaker 1: recorded this podcast. Yes, I was previously in Los Angeles.
Speaker 1: I was there for a thing called Alien Con and
Speaker 1: I was asked to go there through some friends of ours,
Speaker 1: fellow podcasters here in our network Brent and John who
Speaker 1: hosts Hysteria fifty one. Longtime listeners will remember them from
Speaker 1: their previous appearances on this very show. Stuff they don't
Speaker 1: want you to know. And I heard you ran into
Speaker 1: some of the big names in the extraterrestrial world. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It was weird, man, I'm not going to lie. It
Speaker 1: was a it was a trip that became a trip.
Speaker 1: English is strange, but you get what I'm saying. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the so Georgio Sukulos was there. Uh, the guy who
Speaker 1: is responsible for the fire and the sky story was there. Uh.
Speaker 1: There were some other There were some other big names,
Speaker 1: some of whom maybe most familiar to people who already
Speaker 1: very into the ufology or UFO sighting community. Eric Vonden,
Speaker 1: Eric von Denikin. Yes, that's rights and that's that is
Speaker 1: probably one of the biggest ones for me. William Shatner
Speaker 1: was there. I'm not sure if he was aware that
Speaker 1: he was there or knew where he was, but he
Speaker 1: was definitely there. This is a convention that it seems
Speaker 1: to take place numerous cities throughout throughout the year. There's
Speaker 1: another one coming up soon in Dallas. But we went
Speaker 1: to check it out to represent our show, to do
Speaker 1: a panel in UFOs and podcasting, and then through a
Speaker 1: series of strange circumstances, I ended up hosting the costume contests,
Speaker 1: which was a lot of fun and there were some
Speaker 1: great costumes, but probably one of the best things there
Speaker 1: was the ability to meet some of our fellow podcasters.
Speaker 1: So I'd like to recommend one podcast I listened to
Speaker 1: by a guy named Chris Cogswell. It's called the Mad
Speaker 1: Science Tis Podcast. Chris Cogwell is a long time vet
Speaker 1: of the UFO community. He's got his stripes, but not
Speaker 1: just in the world of ufology. He also has his
Speaker 1: stripes in the academic towers, the Ivory ones, you remember those, Matt.
Speaker 1: He has a PhD and material science and so he
Speaker 1: spends a lot of time looking at the hard science
Speaker 1: and data behind reports of anomalous things in the sky
Speaker 1: or your favorite things in the water, UFOs and usos alike.
Speaker 1: Maybe we'll have him on the show one day. But
Speaker 1: if you are interested in looking more into the hard
Speaker 1: science rather than the anecdotes that are so ubiquitous in
Speaker 1: the world of UFO reporting, then we would highly recommend
Speaker 1: the Mad Scientist podcast. Dude. Chris Cogswell has a PhD
Speaker 1: in chemical engineering with a focus on nano materials for
Speaker 1: absorption and separations. Oh yeah, what I right? And here's
Speaker 1: the thing that he's He's the nicest guy and He's
Speaker 1: incredibly knowledgeable, so I love to get him on this
Speaker 1: show to talk about the cases that he feels have
Speaker 1: the most sand, the cases that he feels are the
Speaker 1: most compelling. But yep, that was Los Angeles. Almost wish
Speaker 1: I had stayed, because it is here in Atlanta, Georgia,
Speaker 1: where we record the podcast. It is the weather is
Speaker 1: best described as tepid soup. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, running
Speaker 1: into what do we call it, a soaking wet blanket
Speaker 1: that is a hundred degrees and you're just walking into
Speaker 1: the blanket at all times when you're moving forward, and
Speaker 1: it clings to your skin everywhere, and then the mosquitoes
Speaker 1: and then the mosquitoes arrive. Yes, yes, right on Q. So,
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this and you are in uh,
Speaker 1: the southeast of the United States, good luck. And as
Speaker 1: they say on Mitchell and Webb, remain indoors, Remain calm
Speaker 1: and indoors. Yes, tell us about your adventures. How has
Speaker 1: the weather changed over time, maybe over the year or
Speaker 1: since you were a wee tyke of your own. You
Speaker 1: don't have to wait for the whole podcast and forget.
Speaker 1: You can pause and you can call us now to
Speaker 1: let us know what you think. Yes, but make sure
Speaker 1: you you pull over before you do so if you're driving. Yes, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is not a This is not a Yolo moment.
Speaker 1: Now it is now it is yep, right now is
Speaker 1: a yellow moment. Now it's gone, so too bad. I
Speaker 1: hope you could caught ahold of that while it occurred.
Speaker 1: Now you're cursed to live many times. That's correct. So
Speaker 1: what do you say, Ben, Let's uh, let's give him
Speaker 1: the phone number. We are one eight three three sst
Speaker 1: d W y t K. Seriously leave a message. We
Speaker 1: will see it. Uh, somebody I'm not going to name names.
Speaker 1: Jennifer left eight messages, last eight consecutive messages starting around
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock PM. That's great. So it sounds like we
Speaker 1: have another call in show in the future. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: a whole episode of just Jennifer, like addressing Jennifer's concerns.
Speaker 1: Should we call it just Jennifer? Yeah, it's just a
Speaker 1: Jennifer Jennifer. I hope that you are okay with those
Speaker 1: messages being mentioned on air. If not, this is your
Speaker 1: time to let us know. At the number of Matt
Speaker 1: and I already repeated. So we're talking a little bit
Speaker 1: about the future, but today's episode is largely centered on
Speaker 1: the past. William Faulkner, the author, not just some guy. Uh.
Speaker 1: William Faulkner was fond of saying, the past isn't dead,
Speaker 1: it isn't even past. And that's something that's come up
Speaker 1: on this show before, because while it might sound like
Speaker 1: one of those clever, glib quips that people say on
Speaker 1: a late night talk show, there is serious grit to
Speaker 1: this notion. The discipline that we call history is not
Speaker 1: some pursuit of static, set in stone events. It's an
Speaker 1: attempted understanding. The discipline instead is, at its best, a
Speaker 1: conversation between the present and the past, between the living
Speaker 1: and the dead. History is alive, and like all living things,
Speaker 1: history appears to change over time simply because of our
Speaker 1: understanding of it. I know this sounds abstract, but the
Speaker 1: effects are concrete, and they are very real. Research has
Speaker 1: proven things that were once considered myths or legends were
Speaker 1: indeed real people, places, and events. This is not a
Speaker 1: consistent but this happens frequently enough that we can as
Speaker 1: a species surmised that we have we have no real
Speaker 1: we have no real standing upon which debase our confidence
Speaker 1: in in the story of humanity or the story of
Speaker 1: the planet in a lot of ways, you know, besides
Speaker 1: the best efforts of archaeologists and history orients who are
Speaker 1: attempting to track all that stuff down. Again, we it's
Speaker 1: just the best version that we know at this moment,
Speaker 1: right right, which is how all science should work. So
Speaker 1: examples that are going to be very familiar to a
Speaker 1: lot to a lot of us long time listeners out there.
Speaker 1: The Seely canth that's living history that was for a
Speaker 1: long time considered extinct for a long time, considered a cryptic,
Speaker 1: very well known to the people who had lived in
Speaker 1: the area for thousands of thousands of years. But then
Speaker 1: Western people found it and said, oh, we rediscovered this
Speaker 1: once extinct creature. Yeah, again to the knowledge of the
Speaker 1: people who keep the records, it was gone. Right, That's
Speaker 1: very important distinction. Uh. And then the other famous example
Speaker 1: we often site would be the city of Troy, which
Speaker 1: is the perfect example. Uh. Until fairly recently, you know,
Speaker 1: in in the past few hundred years, Troy was considered
Speaker 1: a myth, entirely made up thing. There were people who
Speaker 1: were aiding huge academic, uh research initiatives on Troy as
Speaker 1: a metaphor for something or what was Troy a code
Speaker 1: name for or whatever. It turns out there was a
Speaker 1: real city of Troy. This guy, who was not a
Speaker 1: professional archaeologist found it. People didn't believe them for a while,
Speaker 1: because of course we'd all decided Troy was made up.
Speaker 1: That's right. And as we're going to find out a
Speaker 1: little later today in this episode, another find that was
Speaker 1: not initially discovered by any kind of archaeologist or someone
Speaker 1: going out to study it. It was just stumbled upon.
Speaker 1: And similarly, we just found a story coming out of
Speaker 1: the Curdistan region of Iraq where there was a brand
Speaker 1: new palace that was discovered because of drought that was
Speaker 1: occurring in a reservoir there, Yeah, the most well damn
Speaker 1: reservoir on the banks of the Tigris River. As we
Speaker 1: were coming into record today, we we learned about this,
Speaker 1: my Seth, did you guys hear about this? Okay? So,
Speaker 1: so there's a alice. It's almost three thousand five years old.
Speaker 1: We never would have found it except for the drought
Speaker 1: that dramatically lowered water levels. It appears to be a
Speaker 1: palace from the Matani Empire, which is one of the
Speaker 1: least researched empires of the ancient Near East. We had
Speaker 1: no idea it existed. We're not sure we as a species,
Speaker 1: not not us recording. We're not sure when it went
Speaker 1: to Ruin, how it ended up underwater in this dam,
Speaker 1: and we don't know exactly what we will learn about this.
Speaker 1: This is where this this is interesting because this is
Speaker 1: where archaeology and folklore may come to may come to collaborate,
Speaker 1: kind of have an Avengers Assemble thing, you know, happening
Speaker 1: just like in a Marvel movie, because this is where
Speaker 1: some of folklorists and anthropology just may be able to
Speaker 1: glean some knowledge or leads from oral history, which I
Speaker 1: think it's downplayed a lot, but it leads us to
Speaker 1: some important things, you know, definitely, and not to get
Speaker 1: away from that too much. But one of the coolest
Speaker 1: things that was found there were these ten clay tablets
Speaker 1: that actually had Cunea form written on them. They were
Speaker 1: still preserved after being underwater for that long, which was
Speaker 1: somewhat surprising to me. But again, as we're gonna learn
Speaker 1: in this episode, water and certain types of water have
Speaker 1: a way of preserving like the pH balance of the water.
Speaker 1: What else is like um inside that water as far
Speaker 1: as plant life and material go, can preserve the heck
Speaker 1: out of things. We also learned some very gross things
Speaker 1: about Florida. Yeah, just climate wise, not not a statement
Speaker 1: about the state nor the people living there. And if
Speaker 1: you're listening, thanks for tuning in. This may be news
Speaker 1: to you. In today's episode, you see, we are going
Speaker 1: to explore a bizarre example of hidden history, one not
Speaker 1: in the Middle East. Instead, it's going to be in
Speaker 1: the comparatively speaking, the backyard of the West. Right, our
Speaker 1: tail begins on an ordinary Floorida day, near the intersection
Speaker 1: of Interstate and State Road fifty. This is fairly close
Speaker 1: to the Cape Canaveral Air Force Station in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 1: This intersection is this sort of place you drive by
Speaker 1: without a second look, especially if you're in the sweltering
Speaker 1: days of summer, because we have to remember the air
Speaker 1: turns to soup and Florida too. Yeah, it's just it's
Speaker 1: a huge interstate and a state road. Okay, great, maybe
Speaker 1: there's a gas station, not really a photo opportunity. If
Speaker 1: you drove by on the right day in nineteen eighty two,
Speaker 1: you might note the construction occurring as crews work to
Speaker 1: clear the nearby land and build what would later become
Speaker 1: the Windover Farms subdivision. You might even if they're slow enough,
Speaker 1: your eyes are sharp and you're on the lookout for
Speaker 1: some for some reason, if you're a very alert driver,
Speaker 1: you might even see a back ho operator named Steve
Speaker 1: vander Jatt who was working to clear out an area
Speaker 1: around a nearby pond. Yeah, he was just on his
Speaker 1: back ho doing everything he was supposed to be doing,
Speaker 1: clearing out part of the Again, it's kind of a
Speaker 1: bog This pond that we're talking about is it's um swamps, marshy, swampy.
Speaker 1: It's just that that kind of Florida. It reminds me
Speaker 1: of the Everglades a little bit, but it's it's a
Speaker 1: little different. So anyway, he's just going, he's using his
Speaker 1: back ho and oh you know what this would be.
Speaker 1: This would be a perfect Florida man story. This would
Speaker 1: be a Florida man man story. Yeah, let's get it
Speaker 1: a try. Okay, Uh, Florida man's back ho stumbles upon
Speaker 1: ancient skull. There we go. I also like attributing the
Speaker 1: action to the Baco because it sounds as if he
Speaker 1: just left it running. Yeah, exactly something. So it's true.
Speaker 1: In Steve found what while he was cleaning stuff out,
Speaker 1: he saw what he thought was maybe around brown rock,
Speaker 1: and a rock would be unusual in this terrain. So
Speaker 1: he stops working. He starts digging through the muck and
Speaker 1: the mud and the swampy stuff that you're mentioning, Matt
Speaker 1: the mucky muck, the mucky muck, that's the technical term.
Speaker 1: And he picks up this object. He makes his way
Speaker 1: over and he picks it up, wipes off some of
Speaker 1: the stuff. You can't see it, folks, but I'm miming
Speaker 1: his actions here. Uh. And then he turns around this
Speaker 1: this object, this smooth, round rock to find too, equally round,
Speaker 1: empty eye sockets staring back at him. And that's when
Speaker 1: Steve realizes this is not a rock. This is a skull.
Speaker 1: And he's not an expert, but it looks pretty old.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, it looks a little old, but again, who
Speaker 1: knows how old it is. So imagine you're Steve and
Speaker 1: you find a skull while you're working. You have to
Speaker 1: call the police and report finding a skull because there's
Speaker 1: a possibility that this maybe you know, a homicide or
Speaker 1: a missing person or something to that effect. So that
Speaker 1: was exactly what he did. And then they continued looking
Speaker 1: because they're still working in this area. It's not like
Speaker 1: you just immediately stopped all the construction there because of
Speaker 1: a skull. You definitely pause for a moment again, called
Speaker 1: the police, and then maybe keep going. But they started
Speaker 1: finding a lot more skulls, a lot more bones again
Speaker 1: inside the bucket of the bacco where he was working.
Speaker 1: Right the site supervisor is the first person that Steve
Speaker 1: contacts and they say, okay, it's just a murder, we
Speaker 1: have to call the police. And then they look in
Speaker 1: the bucket of Steve Spacco and they find more skulls.
Speaker 1: So he had apparently been digging up some remains before
Speaker 1: he was aware of it, right, And when they realized
Speaker 1: they were looking at multiple bodies, they immediately knew something
Speaker 1: was up. Now, this is where two things could have happened,
Speaker 1: and it all depends on a fellow named Jim Swan.
Speaker 1: Jim Swan was the developer of the subdivision, and he
Speaker 1: could do he could do one of two things. He could,
Speaker 1: like many unscrupulous developers, just pay off the crew, suppress
Speaker 1: the news of the find, and carry over with the
Speaker 1: construction of Windover Farms, and that is you know, like
Speaker 1: that's a plot point in the horror film Poultergeist, right, well,
Speaker 1: debatably the horror themed family film Poultergeist. There you go, yes,
Speaker 1: building on top of an ancient burial ground of sorts, right,
Speaker 1: and that that only enters fiction because that has really
Speaker 1: happened in multiple instances, not just here in the US,
Speaker 1: but many places abroad. Jim, for one reason or another,
Speaker 1: hopefully because he's a decent human being, maybe because he's
Speaker 1: afraid of legal action, we don't know. Jim decides to
Speaker 1: halt all the work, just like you were talking about, Matt.
Speaker 1: He says, Okay, there's not a pause. We're stopping everything.
Speaker 1: Shut it down. We have to contact the experts. We
Speaker 1: have to determine the providence of these bones. More importantly,
Speaker 1: I have to figure out what we do next. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've got millions sunk in the subdivision. Probably at this point,
Speaker 1: you know, I was hoping that I could, you know,
Speaker 1: construct it and not go bankrupt. But maybe there's another
Speaker 1: way here, There's something else to do. So he immediately
Speaker 1: reaches out to Florida State University to see if there's
Speaker 1: anyone on staff there that can come over and help
Speaker 1: assist identifying these bones, and they speak to Dr Glenn
Speaker 1: Duran d O R A. N and UM again. He's
Speaker 1: he's staff member of the Florida State University UM and archaeologist.
Speaker 1: He shows up on the scene and initially he's looking
Speaker 1: at these bones and he's thinking, oh, wow, these are
Speaker 1: preserved pretty well. They are old. I can tell they're old. UM.
Speaker 1: And one of the first things he sees are the teeth,
Speaker 1: and he notices that they've been ground down, naturally ground down, UM,
Speaker 1: just through wear and tear and not the way you know,
Speaker 1: if someone was was going to physically injure you and
Speaker 1: hurt your teeth or something or filing them or any Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was just natural wear and tear on the teeth.
Speaker 1: But to the point where he he realized that UM,
Speaker 1: from an archaeologist standpoint, these must be thousands of years old,
Speaker 1: or at least that's what he believes, right. He surmised
Speaker 1: initially from his own his own just on the scene assessment,
Speaker 1: that these bones were from a Native American population, according
Speaker 1: to him, do primarily to uh the dentation and due
Speaker 1: to what he thought that told him about the age.
Speaker 1: So he said, these are perhaps a thousand years old.
Speaker 1: He arranged for carbon dating test. This was financed by
Speaker 1: Swan and Swan's company E K. S Corporation, and they
Speaker 1: were shocked by the results. What were those results? Will
Speaker 1: tell you after a word from our sponsor. Okay, Now,
Speaker 1: when when we left you, we were talking about duran
Speaker 1: and the carbon dating tests that we're going to be
Speaker 1: done on the bones and the teeth and everything that
Speaker 1: were found there at the Windover site. And there's the
Speaker 1: company E K S Corporation. Uh, they are doing this,
Speaker 1: this carbon dating, and they were shocked when they realized
Speaker 1: the bones were indeed more than a thousand years old.
Speaker 1: In fact, the human remains uncovered at this site we're
Speaker 1: somewhere between seven thousand and eight thousand years old. That
Speaker 1: makes them thirty two hundred years older than King Tut
Speaker 1: in Common and two thousand years older than the Great
Speaker 1: Pyramids of Giza themselves in Egypt. It's incredible to imagine
Speaker 1: in Florida, bones of this age were found and then
Speaker 1: carbon dated to show that yes, in fact, they are
Speaker 1: that old, and these were also modern human beings. This
Speaker 1: was not one of the early mixtapes of humanity like
Speaker 1: uh Neanderthal or something like that. Right, right, right, exactly
Speaker 1: seven thousand and eight thousand years old, is on the
Speaker 1: east coast of Florida. Everything that is commonly accepted about
Speaker 1: the spread of the human species argues that the human
Speaker 1: species by and large arrived at North and South America
Speaker 1: what we call those two continents today, by crossing the
Speaker 1: Bearing Land Bridge over what is now the Bearing Straight
Speaker 1: and that in case anyone is not familiar, that is
Speaker 1: in the most opposite corner of the continent that one
Speaker 1: could imagine. It is in the far far far northwest
Speaker 1: and Cape Canaveral, far far southeast. So what's going on?
Speaker 1: They spent two years trying to dig this up. Overall,
Speaker 1: there were three archaeological digs conducted there between six. They
Speaker 1: ended up finding more than two hundred distinct intact burials.
Speaker 1: And you'll hear you'll hear a couple of different numbers
Speaker 1: thrown around. One will be they found two more than
Speaker 1: two hundred burials. One will be like, they found more
Speaker 1: than one hundred and sixty eight bodies, right, And part
Speaker 1: of that is because of the extreme length of time
Speaker 1: that these folks were literally poor choice of words on
Speaker 1: my part bogged down, you know what I mean? Things shift,
Speaker 1: the bones may get jumbled. But the weird thing is
Speaker 1: that despite being in there for almost ten thousand years,
Speaker 1: the better part of ten thousand years, uh, the bodies
Speaker 1: have been ritualistically buried, and with maybe a few exceptions,
Speaker 1: they were all placed in the same position. They were
Speaker 1: in a fetal position, lying on their left side, Their
Speaker 1: heads were pointed west and their faces up to the north.
Speaker 1: In some cases, the next were broken to get this. Yeah, God,
Speaker 1: we don't know why, we can we can? We can
Speaker 1: speculate it best that this shows us some sort of
Speaker 1: belief in the afterlife and ritualistic burial. The deceased were
Speaker 1: also wrapped in what archaeologists believe is the oldest existing
Speaker 1: woven fabric in the world, which is you know, when
Speaker 1: you think of the oldest thing in the world, you
Speaker 1: think of something in Africa and in the Fertile Crescent
Speaker 1: somewhere nearly right or maybe yeah, or maybe a Middle East, right,
Speaker 1: think of something on that continent or in the Middle East.
Speaker 1: You don't really think and it's not a ding again
Speaker 1: on Florida, But you don't think, oh yeah, Florida. That's
Speaker 1: where it is. The oldest fabric ever in Florida. In
Speaker 1: my mind, it would just be in an old beach towel,
Speaker 1: the first one that was ever used, you know, created
Speaker 1: in like Myrtle Beach or Daytona Beach or something. Wouldn't
Speaker 1: it be amazing if it also had uh ancient drawing
Speaker 1: of a cartoon mouse, Oh, turtle or turtle better. No,
Speaker 1: let's fine, let's find both of them. Let's just write this.
Speaker 1: Let's just write this story. It just says salt life
Speaker 1: on it. It just says salt life. Will write this story,
Speaker 1: will bury it somewhere, and thousands of years from now
Speaker 1: a Florida man will discover it with his back full circle.
Speaker 1: So well, that's our show, folks. Thanks for turning in.
Speaker 1: I think we did some meaningful work today. Uh. Yet
Speaker 1: we did find that there were grave goods though that's
Speaker 1: what they're called. Yeah, And it's not even the most
Speaker 1: odd thing that was found here, the oldest fabric, because
Speaker 1: it's the way that this stuff was used, and and
Speaker 1: it's puzzling to me. Help help me understand this a
Speaker 1: little better, Ben, because my understanding is that the bodies
Speaker 1: were actually submerged into the water on purpose using some
Speaker 1: piece of technology, essentially like a tool of some sort. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so they were. They were buried in this fetal position
Speaker 1: with certain body parts responding to certain directions, and then
Speaker 1: branches would be lashed together over them to create a
Speaker 1: tripod which kept the bodies in that fetal position from
Speaker 1: floating up and to prevent them from floating to the
Speaker 1: top of that tripod, they had this. This this woven
Speaker 1: fabric is essentially functioning as a funeral shroud, and a
Speaker 1: wooden steak would be hammered in or or somehow thrust
Speaker 1: through the fabric of the shroud I'm just calling it
Speaker 1: a shroud into the bed of the pond so that
Speaker 1: they would they being the bodies would not float up
Speaker 1: to the top of the the wooden formation that was
Speaker 1: keeping them submerged. And the reason they had to do
Speaker 1: this is because when the body would decompose, it would
Speaker 1: begin to float because it would begin to fill with
Speaker 1: gas and air. The practical step here is that it
Speaker 1: ultimately protects the bodies from the men any many scavengers
Speaker 1: in the area, mostly animals, but there would probably be
Speaker 1: some grave robbers understandably as well. And it kept them
Speaker 1: in that intended again very purposeful position, seems like a
Speaker 1: ritualistic perhaps religious position. Man. That to me is fascinating,
Speaker 1: just the concept that that long ago you would Again,
Speaker 1: maybe this is that thing we always talk about when
Speaker 1: when we discuss European settlers going to parts of Africa
Speaker 1: and discovering these ancient ruins and they think, oh, there's
Speaker 1: no way that they could have an understanding about the
Speaker 1: certain geometry here or this or that. Um, that like
Speaker 1: terrible belief. The institutionalized racism that has occurred over all
Speaker 1: those years. Um, I worry that I'm having a little
Speaker 1: bit of that when I'm trying to imagine, you know,
Speaker 1: people eight thousand years ago creating an underwater burial almost
Speaker 1: to preserve the bodies. Maybe perhaps they had no understanding
Speaker 1: that they were actually preserving the bodies by doing this,
Speaker 1: but that's in fact what they were doing using all
Speaker 1: of these tools and mechanisms. I mean, it's it's um,
Speaker 1: it's baffling, and it's also really really cool. Right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The institutionalized racism that has to a great degree stifled
Speaker 1: scientific progress for centuries is still alive and well in
Speaker 1: a lot of places, and sometimes unintentional. I would argue
Speaker 1: I saw a little bit of that at Alien con
Speaker 1: to be candid with you, but you're right here. Generally speaking,
Speaker 1: when people inter or get rid of the bodies of
Speaker 1: their dead and their loved ones or even their hated ones,
Speaker 1: the thing is that you don't want to see them forever,
Speaker 1: especially if you love someone or they're meaningful to your life.
Speaker 1: You want to help them into the afterlife. That's the
Speaker 1: way it's usually phrased. And that will be like by burial.
Speaker 1: Maybe in some parts of the world there will be
Speaker 1: a you'll be consumed by carnivorous birds, which I think
Speaker 1: is sky burial is probably the coolest cremation, right, things
Speaker 1: like that. The idea is that you don't want them
Speaker 1: to come back. You don't want to see if their
Speaker 1: software is gone. You don't want to be haunted by
Speaker 1: their hardware, which is why it's such a such an
Speaker 1: ancient psy op to take the bodies of dead enemies
Speaker 1: and display them where their living can see them. But
Speaker 1: then others want to preserve the body as much as
Speaker 1: they can because the belief is that that body will
Speaker 1: have to come back. Right, Yeah, that's a and to
Speaker 1: certain rules, right, so that's why we have the preservation
Speaker 1: of organs in some societies. That's and also when when
Speaker 1: we go into a secular world, a lot of times
Speaker 1: there's this interpretation where I would say, this assumption that
Speaker 1: burial rituals are all religiously based, which is not the case.
Speaker 1: I mean, think about all the time spent embalming lenin.
Speaker 1: You know, in the days of of the USSR. It
Speaker 1: was not really a religion, but it took the place
Speaker 1: of a religion because it was a symbol, you know, Lenin,
Speaker 1: not Lenin in my head, I heard of lenin. Oh yes, sorry,
Speaker 1: l and I and perhaps my Tennessee accent, and not
Speaker 1: John Lennon. It was Lennen and lennen in lenen In
Speaker 1: Lennon grad that's right. Yeah, alright, we solved the case.
Speaker 1: But but we're saying all this to give maybe a
Speaker 1: little bit more anthropological perspective. One of the most important
Speaker 1: points you made, Matt, that we shouldn't skip over is
Speaker 1: whether or not the people who were entering folks this
Speaker 1: way knew it. What they ended up doing was preserving
Speaker 1: the bodies of their loved ones for thousand, some thousands
Speaker 1: of years. Because the peat bog is an anaerobic environment,
Speaker 1: which means that a lot of the rules of decomposition,
Speaker 1: which are air and oxygen it dependent, will will not
Speaker 1: play out the same way. Also, the fact that's a
Speaker 1: pete bog means that there's a pH balance that's tremendously
Speaker 1: conducive to preserving things. And there's not a lot you know,
Speaker 1: if it's in the ocean or something or somewhere that
Speaker 1: has a current, there's not a lot of physical movement
Speaker 1: occurring there in the biggest variable is the rising and
Speaker 1: lowering of water, the water essentially in these places depending
Speaker 1: on drought or or the amount of rain um and
Speaker 1: that pH balance. To man, oh god, it's so cool
Speaker 1: to me. Okay, so it feels purposeful, right, it's done
Speaker 1: something with all those factors, Like we've been doing this
Speaker 1: for so long. We know that this is the place
Speaker 1: to bury people, and this is how we will do it.
Speaker 1: And though it's been ten thousand, twelve thousand years at least,
Speaker 1: the practice, right and and the the site itself, as
Speaker 1: will come to find, was active for a very very
Speaker 1: long time before it was forgotten and almost became the
Speaker 1: the non consensual foundation of a suburb. We know that
Speaker 1: the environment of Florida was very challenging remains very challenging
Speaker 1: for preservation, and we can explore that in a little bit.
Speaker 1: Right now, let's talk about the life of the people
Speaker 1: who lived in this prehistoric time. About half of the
Speaker 1: remains found at wind Over again, that's anywhere from a
Speaker 1: sixty eight to two hundred something people were children, not all.
Speaker 1: The oldest people found in the site were around sixty
Speaker 1: years old. Unlike the human remains found in European bogs,
Speaker 1: you know, you might think of something and like Ireland
Speaker 1: or Scotland or something, Unlike those remains, the bodies in
Speaker 1: Florida were only skeletons or no flesh on the bones.
Speaker 1: And again a lot of that has to do with
Speaker 1: the climate of Florida. Yeah, the temperature is going to
Speaker 1: make a big difference there, and as you get closer
Speaker 1: to the equator, you will see you know, increasingly inhospitable
Speaker 1: environments for preservation. But also you know, think of think
Speaker 1: of how rare these places are. But if you if
Speaker 1: you go back a few centuries when there was much
Speaker 1: more forest land and jungle lands in the world, Uh,
Speaker 1: those ecosystems, those biomas are hungry, they eat things. There's
Speaker 1: still eating cities. I think a lot of us would
Speaker 1: be surprised how much maintenance goes on into just keeping
Speaker 1: even what you think of as a metropolis alive from
Speaker 1: one year to the next. Can you imagine in Atlanta
Speaker 1: if we didn't have a kud Zoo team going out
Speaker 1: there every day working, working their tails off. I love
Speaker 1: the kudzoo man. I think about it a lot, and
Speaker 1: how out quickly it would grow. Yeah, I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: I don't think there's an official Atlanta Kudzoo team. Maybe
Speaker 1: there is, if you work for the official Atlanta Kudzoo
Speaker 1: what do we call it? Kutzoo task Force? Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: let us know. I mean, yeah, they're definitely they're definitely
Speaker 1: ongoing wars Kudzu is an excellent example their ongoing efforts
Speaker 1: to prevent the spread of cuts, which is technically an
Speaker 1: invasive species right, but adapted amazingly well. So we know
Speaker 1: a little bit about what these people's lives were like.
Speaker 1: But the same environment of Florida, which makes it so
Speaker 1: difficult to preserve bodies or buildings, let alone books and
Speaker 1: so on, also teaches us about how they were buried.
Speaker 1: Because despite the fact that there was no flesh on
Speaker 1: the bones, about half of the skulls or so contained
Speaker 1: brain matter. It's pretty gruesome, but it also means that
Speaker 1: they were buried within at the very most, at the
Speaker 1: very upper limit, they were in the pond, interred within
Speaker 1: forty eight hours of expiring, because if they were out
Speaker 1: in the Florida environment any time after that, their brain
Speaker 1: would have liquefied, because that's what Florida does to dead people.
Speaker 1: It's true. We also got to look at their stomach contents, right,
Speaker 1: and that's tricky because you're saying, well, there's there's no flesh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're approximating, because it looked like it was the jets
Speaker 1: that we learned that for one one corpse they have
Speaker 1: been eating primarily fish and berries, and the ground down
Speaker 1: teeth that you mentioned earlier, Matt show us similar to uh,
Speaker 1: it's the thing Egyptologists have found before as well. In
Speaker 1: places where people live around a lot of sand. The
Speaker 1: sand gets into your food and it naturally grits down
Speaker 1: your teeth. They didn't have cavities they have they didn't
Speaker 1: have cavities. Well, well, you have to imagine it's only
Speaker 1: over a span of sixty years and there's absolutely you know,
Speaker 1: no dental work being done. There's nothing, there's no way
Speaker 1: to help clean or fix your teeth when things are
Speaker 1: going wrong. Um, and that sand just takes it out quickly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We also know that even though their lives were very difficult,
Speaker 1: they were also very caring with their community. And this
Speaker 1: is this is a big thing that maybe doesn't occur
Speaker 1: to a lot of people when we think of ancient societies,
Speaker 1: but one of the huge, huge leaping points or one
Speaker 1: of the um one of the huge breakthroughs, a watershed
Speaker 1: moment in evolution was the idea of caring for the
Speaker 1: injured and the dead, which is something higher cognition entities
Speaker 1: do so not not necessarily just mammals, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. There's some birds that will care for the injured,
Speaker 1: and of course there's citations are still mammals, but who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe there's an octopus hospital, you know, maybe, But I
Speaker 1: see exactly what you're saying. In an organized humanoid society,
Speaker 1: a human society taking care of someone who's incapacitated, who
Speaker 1: cannot contribute to you know, the the wealth, essentially the
Speaker 1: health and wealth of your tribe, your group. Then you know,
Speaker 1: for a certain time, there's no reason to have that
Speaker 1: person besides to you know, keep them around because you
Speaker 1: love them, right, or you care about them, or because
Speaker 1: you're a decent Well yeah, but if you if you
Speaker 1: think about it from the most basic needs of a human,
Speaker 1: like a singular human as well as a group of humans,
Speaker 1: it's ah, that's a choice that what you're saying is
Speaker 1: it only comes along with the higher cognition, the really
Speaker 1: thinking about essentially good like doing good. Well, I would say, also,
Speaker 1: there's gonna on very cold. Biologically speaking, an individual human
Speaker 1: has zero value unless something can reproduce a sexually. An
Speaker 1: individual of any species has zero value in terms of
Speaker 1: the big picture. So a group of things that can
Speaker 1: care for one another in groups may lose a couple
Speaker 1: of checkers games, but they will win the chess game
Speaker 1: to go right, So we do know that they were
Speaker 1: playing this chess game right. We found several examples of
Speaker 1: people who would have died quite quickly and probably quite
Speaker 1: painfully had they not have folks caring for them. And
Speaker 1: this again is a huge hallmark of what we would
Speaker 1: call modern humanity. Yeah, there's an older woman and she
Speaker 1: was perhaps around fifty years old. It's kind of an
Speaker 1: estimation there, but she showed signs of having broken bones,
Speaker 1: like several of them, to the point where this person
Speaker 1: is not going to survive if it's eight thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: But she she did for a while, at least while
Speaker 1: she was being taken care of. UM. The fractures occurred
Speaker 1: several years before she died. So that's how you know somebody,
Speaker 1: somebody was was doing a lot for this person. UM.
Speaker 1: It really means that there are other villagers, other humans
Speaker 1: around her that helped her even even when she could
Speaker 1: no longer contribute. And that's really what we're saying. There's
Speaker 1: another body of a fifteen year old boy, at least
Speaker 1: again an estimated fifteen year old boy, that showed he
Speaker 1: was a victim of UM. Spina bifida, which is something
Speaker 1: intense to encounter in modern day with modern day medicine,
Speaker 1: you can only imagine what it was like then, right.
Speaker 1: Spina bifida as a birth defect that occurs when you're
Speaker 1: the cord of your spine and your actual spine don't
Speaker 1: form properly. It used to be considered a pediatric illness,
Speaker 1: even even relatively recently, meaning that if you survive into adulthood,
Speaker 1: you would just still continue to see your pediatric doctor.
Speaker 1: This kid made it to fifteen, so he was he
Speaker 1: was well on his way to becoming an adult. They
Speaker 1: also saw various different tools. Perhaps one of the most
Speaker 1: heartbreaking things is that every single child that was buried
Speaker 1: there was buried with a couple of toys. Wow, how
Speaker 1: much more human can you get? We have to ask ourselves, Okay,
Speaker 1: these are people, but who were these people? Where did
Speaker 1: they come from? And how did they get there? How,
Speaker 1: perhaps even more importantly, did they become lost to time
Speaker 1: for more than seven thousand years. It's questionable answer. After
Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor, here's where it gets crazy. First,
Speaker 1: this was not a mass grave, just a place where
Speaker 1: bodies were thrown just because someone had died and it
Speaker 1: was done. We've already already established that these bodies are
Speaker 1: placed there on purpose and in a way that it
Speaker 1: is meaningful. It's not a massacre as far as it's
Speaker 1: not an all die. At the same time, and we
Speaker 1: also know that this is likely not a matter of
Speaker 1: some kind of uh sacrifice, some kind of ritual that
Speaker 1: was done to to to put these people out of
Speaker 1: their misery or for worship of some other you know,
Speaker 1: deity or or being or something like that. And we
Speaker 1: know this because of the way in which they were interred,
Speaker 1: and because of the the nature of ritualistic human sacrifice
Speaker 1: usually indicates are usually is predicated upon a similar method
Speaker 1: of death. Someone is you know, ritualistically strangled by the
Speaker 1: thug cult, or someone has is vivisected right somewhere in
Speaker 1: Mesoamerica or something this or or in the case of
Speaker 1: bogs in Europe, someone has their throat cut and then
Speaker 1: they're tossed and tossed in a bog. Right, doesn't seem
Speaker 1: to be the case here. One of the reasons, one
Speaker 1: of the biggest here's where it gets crazy moments in
Speaker 1: this Windover investigation, which has again been going on since
Speaker 1: the early nineteen eighties, not eighteen eighties as far as
Speaker 1: we know, hinges on the concept of d n A.
Speaker 1: And this goes back a little bit to what you
Speaker 1: were talking about, Matt. You will hear some folks, including
Speaker 1: members of academia here in two thousand nineteen, arguing that
Speaker 1: the DNA tests conducted on the remains indicated that these
Speaker 1: people were descended from Europeans rather than the Far Eastern,
Speaker 1: you know, the far the Far Eastern groups that migrated
Speaker 1: out of Siberia right or through Siberia. This would be
Speaker 1: a huge discovery, but the question is is it true?
Speaker 1: First we have to remember the only way they could
Speaker 1: find anything close enough to try to analyze would be
Speaker 1: that that brain matter the marrow is probably long gone
Speaker 1: and the DNA's rate of decay makes it a lot
Speaker 1: like forget trying to find a needle in the haystack.
Speaker 1: It's trying to find a lottery ticket in a haystack
Speaker 1: and hoping that it wins. And you have to find
Speaker 1: multiple lottery tickets because you can't just test one subject
Speaker 1: and say, oh, this whole group of people they're definitely European, right,
Speaker 1: And in the past people have been way too quick
Speaker 1: to do that. There's a geneticist named Joseph Lawrence from
Speaker 1: the Corey l Institute for Medical Research. He was searching
Speaker 1: for DNA markers that he thought were typical of Native Americans,
Speaker 1: and the DNA samples taken from the bones of five
Speaker 1: different people in wind Over. So so they did, let
Speaker 1: me correct myself there, they did find at least something
Speaker 1: in the bones they could use. He didn't find what
Speaker 1: he was looking for. He did not find those common
Speaker 1: markers he thought would be extant, and so he compared
Speaker 1: the wind over DNA results. He had to present European populations,
Speaker 1: and this is what he said. I went back to
Speaker 1: the screen and looked at the sequences again. The first
Speaker 1: person's DNA it looked European. When I looked at the
Speaker 1: second one, it looked European. When I looked at the third,
Speaker 1: the fourth, and the fifth, it was slightly different from
Speaker 1: the first two, but they looked European. So there are
Speaker 1: three common presumptions that are inherent intrinsic in every interpretation
Speaker 1: of the wind over DNA. The first is the assumption
Speaker 1: that one combination of DNA haplo groups typifies all Native
Speaker 1: American populations. It's demonstrably untrue. There's been well documented Polynesian
Speaker 1: DNA material found in skeletons in northwest Mexico as well
Speaker 1: as southern California. There are early populations of South America
Speaker 1: that also don't necessarily fit that assumption. Also, there are
Speaker 1: no DNA text markers for a lot of indigenous people
Speaker 1: in southeastern US. The researches wasn't quite there at the time.
Speaker 1: And then there's the Ute group, which has consistently stated,
Speaker 1: again in folklore and the importance of world storytelling, that
Speaker 1: their ancestors crossed the Atlantic to the Savannah River. These
Speaker 1: are you'll hear them called the oldest indigenous people's in
Speaker 1: the Southeast. Their migration legend states that they found evidence
Speaker 1: of an earlier people who had lived in the Savannah
Speaker 1: River basin before them. I think it's clutching at straws
Speaker 1: because that's anecdotal, you know what I mean, But that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean there's not a grain of truth to it.
Speaker 1: And this whole DNA exploration is where things get so
Speaker 1: sticky because for some more conspiratorially minded people this was
Speaker 1: seen as a gold mine. It was proof that there
Speaker 1: could be some previously unidentified migration patterns in ancient human history.
Speaker 1: It's true there are. We're going to find more as
Speaker 1: we learn more about the expansion of the species. But
Speaker 1: I don't know. There's there's a thing that used a
Speaker 1: lot of Weasley word language that we found describing this,
Speaker 1: and we've got a quote here, Yes, this comes from
Speaker 1: about archaeology. All those scientists believed they had retrieved DNA
Speaker 1: from the fairly intact brain matter recovered from some of
Speaker 1: the human burials. Subsequent research has shown that the mt
Speaker 1: DNA lineage is reported are absent in all other prehistoric
Speaker 1: and contemporary Native American populations studied to date. Further attempts
Speaker 1: to retrieve more DNA have failed, and an amplification study
Speaker 1: has shown that there is no analyzable DNA left at
Speaker 1: the wind Over burials. So let's unpack this quickly. What
Speaker 1: this shows is that scientists did at one point get
Speaker 1: some DNA material from one uh one or more of
Speaker 1: the brains, definitely more one would one would hope, and
Speaker 1: they found that the mitochondrial DNA lineage reported didn't match
Speaker 1: what we knew about other Native American populations, right, So
Speaker 1: then they said, we've tried or other people have tried
Speaker 1: to grab more DNA material and they can't get it,
Speaker 1: and we think there's no more left. So we shot
Speaker 1: our shot, basically shot our shot, and we got more
Speaker 1: questions than answers. However, this thing we just read from
Speaker 1: about archaeology, well, um, several people take exception to this,
Speaker 1: including someone a researcher named Gary Carson, and we have
Speaker 1: a quote from him. Yeah, Yeah, he unpacks this stuff,
Speaker 1: and he says, I've read this particular passage two or
Speaker 1: three times and it's a masterpiece of hand waving and misdirection.
Speaker 1: He's a little steamed about it. That last part was me.
Speaker 1: The article makes it sound like DNA wasn't discovered after all,
Speaker 1: but it goes on to say that mt DNA lineages
Speaker 1: were discovered that's might have condrodney and subsequently analyzed, but
Speaker 1: then dismisses the analysis because it doesn't match the expected results,
Speaker 1: specifically because it didn't connect the wind Over Bogg people
Speaker 1: with other prehistoric and contemporary Native American populations. In other words,
Speaker 1: according to Gary, the DNA results couldn't be accurate because
Speaker 1: they didn't show that the Bog people were Native Americans.
Speaker 1: So he's he's not necessarily arguing some secret migration from
Speaker 1: some hitherto unmentioned land, but he is saying that these
Speaker 1: people may be committing one of the one of the
Speaker 1: big sins of critical thinking, which is throwing out stuff
Speaker 1: that doesn't fit your preconceived notion. There's a facial reconstruction
Speaker 1: project that you can you can see google wind Over
Speaker 1: a woman online, and they don't they don't appear European.
Speaker 1: But a lot of facial reconstruction like that is interpretive, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, we didn't know dinos stars had feathers. We
Speaker 1: did forever, but we figured it out because somebody just
Speaker 1: decided one day that they had feathers. That's honestly what happened.
Speaker 1: Is that what happens, Like, dude, these guys got feathers.
Speaker 1: That was you, it was me. I should have been
Speaker 1: on that call. When I grew up, dinosaurs we're just
Speaker 1: all green or brown or gray stripes. Yeah, eighties kids,
Speaker 1: dinosaurs are green, brown, gray, maybe maybe a little tan
Speaker 1: light brown. But now they're just multicolored. They got feathers.
Speaker 1: I don't believe it. I'm just kidding. I think it's
Speaker 1: wonderful what we're learning. Uh, paleontologists teaching against some things. No,
Speaker 1: I love it. You think there should be a bright
Speaker 1: line between pokemon and dinosaurs. I choose you packy cephalosaurs
Speaker 1: so great. So there are there are other opinions here,
Speaker 1: one that argues one that bases his argument on the timeline.
Speaker 1: So time estimates for the arrival of certain genomes or
Speaker 1: Janeque material are twelve thousand, thirty six thousand years ago,
Speaker 1: depending on the number of assumed founders, and this supports
Speaker 1: the conclusion that people harboring this Haplow group, this, this
Speaker 1: weird one that sticks out right where among the original
Speaker 1: founders of Native American populations to date, Haplow Group X,
Speaker 1: as this guy William Holsworth is calling it, has not
Speaker 1: been unambiguously identified in Asia, which would have been the
Speaker 1: origin point, And to this author raises the possibility that
Speaker 1: some of these Native American founding populations had ancestors somewhere
Speaker 1: else so ultimately came to what we recognize as Florida
Speaker 1: today through some other migration pattern. As the Internet likes
Speaker 1: to say, big if true, Big if true, Big if true?
Speaker 1: But is it true? At this point, it seems experts
Speaker 1: are still debating the origin of the ancient wind over
Speaker 1: population and occasionally, if you read closely, accusing one another
Speaker 1: of having an agenda, which is not not at all unusual. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's pretty darn common when it comes to
Speaker 1: things like this, and it's an important debate. It's when
Speaker 1: we should treat with extreme seriousness, primarily because of the
Speaker 1: point you raised, Matt, which is it is a fundamental
Speaker 1: point that is all too often skipped over. The human
Speaker 1: species has a long, long, incredibly unfortunate history of institutionalized racism,
Speaker 1: attempting to shoehorn insert favorite group here into so many things,
Speaker 1: from pyramids to the ruins of empires to the creation
Speaker 1: of civilization. You know what I mean. And this is
Speaker 1: not just This is not just a practice of one
Speaker 1: sect of people from one part of the world, nor
Speaker 1: is it the practice of one discipline. And just to
Speaker 1: take it back to alien con we see it perpetuated
Speaker 1: there where. If Europeans or some sort didn't have anything
Speaker 1: to do with this, well, then it must be aliens
Speaker 1: making all of these ancient sites. And to the in
Speaker 1: the defense of people who will make those arguments, typically
Speaker 1: nowadays they're not just arguing something based on that the loss,
Speaker 1: I say, Stonehenge, How could ancient people have made that? Those?
Speaker 1: Look at those the big that's the biggest rock I
Speaker 1: ever saw. It's true. I'm not quoting, I'm paraphrasing, but true.
Speaker 1: It's just something we we cannot stress enough. That is
Speaker 1: um It's it's highly important and remember it when you
Speaker 1: read things. And at least it leads us almost full
Speaker 1: circle here, Matt, because what we're talking about is underestimating
Speaker 1: ancient people, which we should never do. These are modern
Speaker 1: human beings. Human humanity is slowly evolving. But but people
Speaker 1: thousands of years ago were as smart and as capable
Speaker 1: of of invention and ingenuity as people are today. So
Speaker 1: this is where it gets us to a weird spot.
Speaker 1: And this is maybe where we end today's conversation and
Speaker 1: to hear from to hear from you, folks, if you know,
Speaker 1: if if we accept there's absolutely true that ancient people's could,
Speaker 1: through their own ingenuity and their own mcgivernus, build things
Speaker 1: like stonehinge, like pyramids like Catalahok and so on, doesn't
Speaker 1: that mean we also need to be open to the
Speaker 1: idea that that same ingenuity could be applied to migration
Speaker 1: and travel, absolutely especially over water, especially over water. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in today, folks. I know
Speaker 1: that I know that we had some some diversions here,
Speaker 1: but but this is a real and unfolding story. We
Speaker 1: would love to hear what you think. Have you visited,
Speaker 1: uh the wind Over site and if so, what are
Speaker 1: your experiences or this doesn't have anything to do with
Speaker 1: wind Over ancient sites throughout the world, what do you
Speaker 1: visit in your neck of the Global Woods. We would
Speaker 1: love to hear your stories, anything from burial side to
Speaker 1: cave paintings to any any traces of humanity from from long,
Speaker 1: long ago. Tell us about your local your locations. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's say anything older than twelve hundred a D. That's great.
Speaker 1: Pick that one because I think that's that's around the
Speaker 1: time of the phantom time hypothesis. Right, I can't remember
Speaker 1: we have no you're right, it's the middle, it's the
Speaker 1: Dark Ages. Right, let me let me correct that phantom
Speaker 1: time is uh a D six fourteen to nine eleven
Speaker 1: eight to ask what it was. Yeah, so let's just
Speaker 1: say any any Let's stick with twelve D said twere
Speaker 1: any any time before twelve hundred And you know what
Speaker 1: if you visited something that was built in the twelve
Speaker 1: hundreds and it is still around and you're like, guys,
Speaker 1: I think that was twelve seventy three, that's fine. We
Speaker 1: still want to know. We want to hear the story.
Speaker 1: Please a right to and if your name is Chris
Speaker 1: Cogswell and you have a podcast, right to us too,
Speaker 1: because I'd love to. I'd love to interact with you.
Speaker 1: Ben got to now and I want to know more.
Speaker 1: And also Mary Mayhew, who was the co host of
Speaker 1: that podcast that now I can't remember. I remember, Chris
Speaker 1: Cogswellings Mad Scientist Something podcast, Matt Sidentist podcast. I'm really interested.
Speaker 1: Now I'm gonna have to listen. So you can reach
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Speaker 1: you you've been thinking about with that stuff in particular,
Speaker 1: let's go ahead and mention it now. Ben, a lot
Speaker 1: of people have been writing to us about the David
Speaker 1: Eike interview. If you have thoughts on that, please continue
Speaker 1: to write to us. We're going to have some more
Speaker 1: discussion internally and with you about it as well. And Hey,
Speaker 1: you might be saying I have something that I would
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Speaker 1: Why do you guys still have a Facebook page after
Speaker 1: you told me about how bad Facebook is. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: we were right. We have to have one. We have
Speaker 1: to have it. Uh. And I hate being on the phone.
Speaker 1: It's twenty nineteen. Real friends text I don't know how
Speaker 1: to get in contact with you. All I use is email. Well,
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