Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season to fifty, episode
Speaker 1: three of Days I Guys, a a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. This is a podcast where we take a
Speaker 1: deep dive into America's share consciousness. And it is Wednesday,
Speaker 1: August seventeen, twenty two. You heard right, August. It is
Speaker 1: August seventeen yep, which of course means are you ready.
Speaker 1: I'm ready. I'm in my three point. Here we go,
Speaker 1: defensive slide, deny, here we go. Ballalla blah blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. Black Cat appreciation, Dave, you got a black cat?
Speaker 1: I know I do. Shout out my cat Burgee. That's
Speaker 1: also National Massachusetts Day shot off the Commonwealth, and also
Speaker 1: National I Love my Feet Day, brought to you by
Speaker 1: WI for Real, brought to you by I'm sure it
Speaker 1: could be, but we all need we all need a
Speaker 1: little self love. In the feet department, they say it's
Speaker 1: about footcare. It's not about like taking a gander at
Speaker 1: your little fetcs. It's about, hey, your feet fit all right?
Speaker 1: You got foot paint, you're walking okay into your feet
Speaker 1: fit all right? I mean your shoes. I'm sorry you're shoes.
Speaker 1: Your shoes because I have wider feet, and I realized
Speaker 1: I've been wearing the most like improperly narrow shoes for
Speaker 1: most of my life, and now I'm like starting to
Speaker 1: be like, oh yeah, I'm kind I'm starting to feel
Speaker 1: that an so switched to birkin Stocks. There you go,
Speaker 1: the person. I just got my first pair, but you
Speaker 1: got Burke's h I don't have it yet. I need
Speaker 1: to go. I'm gonna cross over nothing. Give them miles
Speaker 1: really live for Yeah, they're nice, or they leather. You
Speaker 1: got the felt ones. Plastics, they're like the plastic rubber.
Speaker 1: Oh shit, okay, waterproof. I didn't look when I was
Speaker 1: in my phase where I was like, you know, having
Speaker 1: my walls pleasure with booting posters and was wearing like
Speaker 1: crust color and can I My whole school was all
Speaker 1: into seventies fashion, like in the nineties bergen stock, so
Speaker 1: I swore I would never wear burgen stocks. But I've
Speaker 1: gone back on that and they are comfortable. And my
Speaker 1: wife even allows me to have my toes out around
Speaker 1: the house, which is that is the one part of
Speaker 1: my body that she is openly like, it's ugly. We
Speaker 1: should get a redo on that. Not good down here,
Speaker 1: like not so much here here, but like down here
Speaker 1: in this region here. Well, my name is Jack O'Brien
Speaker 1: a k zake. Guys, Jack and Miles in action, passing
Speaker 1: through my ma and all the while I'm drinking do uh.
Speaker 1: That's Chrisie of Bohemian Rap City in the end, the end,
Speaker 1: the n Yeah, shout out to Bohemian Rap City. That
Speaker 1: was that. He gave me that one a long time
Speaker 1: ago and I had somehow missed it. So I appreciate you,
Speaker 1: and I'm thrilled to be joined as always by my
Speaker 1: co host Mr Miles, Mr Miles Gray, a k a.
Speaker 1: The Lord of the lank or sham Headeo NoHo himself.
Speaker 1: Oh and also if you're in the valley, the San
Speaker 1: Fernando Valley, I'm gonna be doing a live podcast with
Speaker 1: eight one eights and Heartbreaks the local valley legends. Check
Speaker 1: my Twitter or the eight one Eights and Heartbreak Twitter
Speaker 1: socials to get tickets where I will be discussing my
Speaker 1: favorite thing, which is the San Fernando Valley. So but
Speaker 1: that's limited to people in l A, so please check
Speaker 1: it out. That's like a valley focused podcast. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: all valley kids, they all went to North Hollywood. They're
Speaker 1: all from North Hollywood, like, and I saw Molly Lambert
Speaker 1: on it also North North Hollywood legend Molly Lambert. And
Speaker 1: when I saw I was like, yo, I want to
Speaker 1: be on this podcast, And like I was d m
Speaker 1: ing them, I'm like, hey, I would like to be
Speaker 1: a guest or like, oh okay, normally people don't do this,
Speaker 1: but yeah, but you know what, I see eight one
Speaker 1: eights and my heart flutters. There you go. Well, we
Speaker 1: are thrilled to be joined in our third seat by
Speaker 1: acclaimed science journalist, author, comedy writer, poet whose writing has
Speaker 1: appeared in The New York Times, The Atlantic, The Guardian,
Speaker 1: The Washington Post, The New Republic, Slate, and Salon. Her
Speaker 1: first book, The End of Bias A Beginning, was a
Speaker 1: finalist for All Sorts of Awards, appeared on All Sorts
Speaker 1: of Best Book of the Year LISTE It's Jessica Nordon. Hello,
Speaker 1: thank you so much all to be back. Yeah, welcome, welcome.
Speaker 1: How are things? What's new? How art thou? A? Things
Speaker 1: are good? I I am hoping they're just until about
Speaker 1: five minutes ago there was a small child screaming outside
Speaker 1: my window. So I'm really hoping that we have an
Speaker 1: uninterrupted conversation. But yeah, things are good. I'm in Minneapolis.
Speaker 1: It's like we're in this like narrow window of like
Speaker 1: two weeks when the weather is beautiful and everyone in
Speaker 1: the city like goes outside and like runs around maniacally
Speaker 1: because become horrible soon. Um So I'm I'm doing well.
Speaker 1: How are you guys doing good? Wait? What's what's the
Speaker 1: window for a good weather in Minneapolis? Like, because the
Speaker 1: way you say that, I'm like, oh, this is clear,
Speaker 1: Like what I mean realistically when when at what point
Speaker 1: are we seeing what kind of average temperatures? I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like it stays cold, you know, realistically, it
Speaker 1: stays cold until like late April, and then it starts
Speaker 1: to get cold again in like October. So it's it's
Speaker 1: kind of a narrow, yeah, slice of of joy that
Speaker 1: we see and hold on to enjoy it while it lasts. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: we can't escape mid nineties heat in California, but hey,
Speaker 1: you know that's a part for the course. Out here,
Speaker 1: it's hot. We're trying to air out our house because
Speaker 1: we got you know, we're kind of getting over COVID,
Speaker 1: trying to get all the germs blown out. But it is.
Speaker 1: It is just static and hot. Are you guys both
Speaker 1: in southern California? Yeah, Los Angeles where actually, if I
Speaker 1: tilt my thing to the side, Miles is right here,
Speaker 1: right next to him, built at throughout the kind of
Speaker 1: keep thee o man as long as you don't so.
Speaker 1: But so you've been lifelong Minneapolis or um, I've been
Speaker 1: kind of bouncing around. I grew up well, I was
Speaker 1: born in l A. Actually I was delivered by the
Speaker 1: same doctor who delivered Chaz Bonozing. Congratulations. And my my
Speaker 1: pediatrician was I don't know if you remember the Hollywood
Speaker 1: Madam Heidi Flice. Oh, we just podcast about Heidi Flice
Speaker 1: and talked about how Heidi Flice's father delivered Leonardo DiCaprio.
Speaker 1: And was you know the pediatrician to the whole like
Speaker 1: kind of counterculture cool Silver Lake scene. You were, Yes,
Speaker 1: that included you. He was my pediatrician apparently, Yes, I
Speaker 1: didn't know Leonardo leon and I shared a pediatrician. Maybe
Speaker 1: I'll give him a call absolution, Yeah, I love yeah,
Speaker 1: just with the most tenuous connection like Lilo Lil Liah.
Speaker 1: It's the best game. Actually, who has the most tenuous
Speaker 1: connection to the least significant celebrity. Absolutely, and it's I
Speaker 1: remember I did that like once with when I met
Speaker 1: Cindy Crawford, because I when I worked at like this
Speaker 1: other job, I went to her house to shoot a
Speaker 1: video and I was like, the thing is her son?
Speaker 1: I like when I worked at a laser Tag place
Speaker 1: I did. I was the party host twice for this
Speaker 1: birthday and I met her and I remember as a
Speaker 1: teenage like I met Cindy Crawford as an adult. I
Speaker 1: went to your house and I'm like, this is gonna
Speaker 1: sound really weird, but I went to her house for
Speaker 1: another reason. You didn't go to her house just to
Speaker 1: say this, yeah, just knocking on the It's me from
Speaker 1: Ultra Zone. I told her. I said, hey, I I
Speaker 1: this sounds weird, but I actually was like the party
Speaker 1: guy for your kids laser Tag birthday. She was like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. She grabbed her photo album and pulled
Speaker 1: out the photos from the party and like my arm
Speaker 1: wasn't a shot, and I was like, that was me.
Speaker 1: And again that was like one of the most my
Speaker 1: I've never felt more like entitled or whatever, just to
Speaker 1: be like you see it was a loose thread and
Speaker 1: she fucking ganked on it, and the whole photo album
Speaker 1: came out. Wasn't that tenuous that I'm I'm like the
Speaker 1: RMB in and it is cool. I would have preferred
Speaker 1: if she pulled it out and there was just like
Speaker 1: a wall of pictures of you, just like just like
Speaker 1: I've been waiting for you, waiting for you could come
Speaker 1: come back. All right, well, Jessica, we're going to get
Speaker 1: to know you a little bit better in a moment. First,
Speaker 1: we're gonna tell our listeners. I wanted to say the
Speaker 1: comedy writers thing you wrote for a Prairie Home companion
Speaker 1: I did. It was like one of my first jobs. Yes, yes,
Speaker 1: look at you. I have Wikipedia have access to that.
Speaker 1: But that's very cool. What was that like to work on?
Speaker 1: It was really interesting. I mean I remember, like I
Speaker 1: was just I was in my early twenties. I was
Speaker 1: kind of desperately looking for a job that would pay
Speaker 1: me for writing, and I was living in Minneapolis, and um,
Speaker 1: it was kind of like trolling different websites and Minnesota
Speaker 1: Public Radio had this writing job that they advertised and
Speaker 1: with like benefits, and I was like, that sounds fantastic.
Speaker 1: And only later did I find out that it was
Speaker 1: for Prairie and Companions. I was like, huh, well, I
Speaker 1: haven't really listened to the show, but I like writing comedy.
Speaker 1: I'll give it a shot. And yeah, I ended up
Speaker 1: working there for a few years. It was It was wild.
Speaker 1: I mean, I I learned a lot. It was you know,
Speaker 1: kind of in hindsight. There were some strange things that
Speaker 1: went down that I wasn't as in tune to at
Speaker 1: the time as I am now, but I mean it
Speaker 1: was it was a great education in working quickly and
Speaker 1: working hard and kind of like not being precious with
Speaker 1: material because there was like so much material generated. We
Speaker 1: had a few writers working on the show and then
Speaker 1: Garrison was like writing all the time, and we would
Speaker 1: just create so much material, so much material, and you know,
Speaker 1: it would get thrown out. And so I feel like
Speaker 1: it kind of taught me something that was useful for
Speaker 1: my writing career later, which is like, don't get that
Speaker 1: attached to stuff, just like exactly just like produced, produced, produce,
Speaker 1: and eventually something good will emerge, but don't get yeah,
Speaker 1: don't get too precious. So that that was really actually
Speaker 1: very useful early kind of early career, very insight. Did
Speaker 1: the movie a Prairie Home companion. Did you watch that movie?
Speaker 1: Didn't get it right? I was an extra in that movie. Right,
Speaker 1: That's pretty cool, which is my tenuous connection there is. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was very weird because it was like this physical
Speaker 1: recreation of something that only existed in our heads, like
Speaker 1: all of the sets with the different the different sketches
Speaker 1: and yeah, so it was kind of it was sort
Speaker 1: of trippy in an existential way. But yeah, cool, that's funny.
Speaker 1: I I interned at Mirror Max in two thousand two,
Speaker 1: and yeah, like you said, like nothing over at the time,
Speaker 1: but in retrospect, it's like, man, that places vibes were
Speaker 1: all all fucked up. There were there was some weird
Speaker 1: ship going on. Anyways, all right, we are going to
Speaker 1: get to know you a little bit better in a moment. First,
Speaker 1: a few of the things we are talking about later on,
Speaker 1: we're gonna talk Tuckers back on the air and he's
Speaker 1: he's ringing the bell. He wants he wants blood, it
Speaker 1: would appear, so so we're gonna talk about blood. I mean,
Speaker 1: he's like, I hate they blood. The implication there will
Speaker 1: be blood question mark is his version of things. They
Speaker 1: might be blood. Uh, we're gonna talk about unpaid internships.
Speaker 1: Speaking of internships, the reason journalism is failing, I think
Speaker 1: is I don't think we need the question mark. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's in general. Paid internships in any industry is the
Speaker 1: reason why a lot of homogeneous thinking or just kind
Speaker 1: of like one note mentality is happening. I feel like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about the Economist. They released a
Speaker 1: few months back there guide to the top ten best
Speaker 1: and worst places to live in the world, And this
Speaker 1: is from the Economist. What is the Economist Intelligence Unit?
Speaker 1: So they're like, this is we we like to think
Speaker 1: of ourselves as a publication, as having a CI a
Speaker 1: part of our outlet. So this this comes from them
Speaker 1: plenty more. But before we get to any of that, Jessica,
Speaker 1: we like to ask our guests, what is something from
Speaker 1: your search history? Oh, search history right now? Um gosh.
Speaker 1: I have been looking into something called empathic discipline, which
Speaker 1: is an an approach to creating stronger teachers, student trust
Speaker 1: and relationships, um with the goal of decreasing racial disparities
Speaker 1: in school discipline like suspensions, expulsions, detentions, things like that.
Speaker 1: And there's some really interesting research done by an amazing
Speaker 1: psychologist named Jason okana Fua who finds that and the
Speaker 1: research found that when you train teachers to use empathic
Speaker 1: approaches to students, when you train teachers to really focus
Speaker 1: on building trusting relationships and avoiding labeling students and really
Speaker 1: thinking about how important the teacher student relationship is to
Speaker 1: helping students success, what happens is suspensions drop, and specifically
Speaker 1: racial disparities in dispensions in suspensions decrease as well. So
Speaker 1: it's like this really interesting approach to decreasing biaus that
Speaker 1: doesn't actually target bias. So it's it's like kind of
Speaker 1: this Ninja or maybe more like Judo. It's like this
Speaker 1: this move of getting at the consequences of bias without
Speaker 1: actually trying to tackle the bias itself. So I've been
Speaker 1: I've been researching that just focusing on building empathy, like
Speaker 1: with teachers having empathy with their students across the board,
Speaker 1: and the idea that like just by having a like
Speaker 1: an actual relationship with student will probably be like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I respect you because I trust to you. So if
Speaker 1: you're telling me that, I'm less likely to act out
Speaker 1: versus me being like, oh, here comes this fucking asshole
Speaker 1: who just wants to say I'm a bad influence all
Speaker 1: the time. That's exactly it. So what this researcher found
Speaker 1: was that a lot of like bias interventions think of
Speaker 1: it as this one way street, which is like the
Speaker 1: teacher express and bias towards the student. But what Jason
Speaker 1: o'kana fua found, Dr okana Fua, is that it's actually
Speaker 1: like an interactive experience. So exactly as you point out, Miles, like,
Speaker 1: the teacher is maybe having certain stereotypes about students, and
Speaker 1: the student senses that and they are primed to act
Speaker 1: out because they don't trust the teacher and they're expecting
Speaker 1: to be treated in a particular way, and so that
Speaker 1: might even create them to act out more and then
Speaker 1: fulfill the teacher's stereotype, which just creates this like endless
Speaker 1: and then the teachers like and I was right about them,
Speaker 1: and then you nailed it. Yeah, So this approach is
Speaker 1: really designed to interrupt that bad cycle and help teachers
Speaker 1: really understand how important it is for the students to
Speaker 1: feel respected and for the teacher to respect the students
Speaker 1: and to create that bond. So that exactly like when
Speaker 1: a problem arises the student like, as you point out,
Speaker 1: is like, oh, okay, maybe this teacher's right, maybe I
Speaker 1: do need to kind of shift things around. And I
Speaker 1: know that they try. I know that they respect me,
Speaker 1: and so it creates the foundation for a relationship that
Speaker 1: then causes students to feel more respected and behave better right,
Speaker 1: And it seems like it's just something really good teachers naturally,
Speaker 1: do you know, like I think of like teachers I've had.
Speaker 1: I've had teachers who have like written me off, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, and I hated being in their classroom because
Speaker 1: they're going to be like the second to have one
Speaker 1: teacher who like if anybody laughed at any time, she's like, Miles,
Speaker 1: what are you doing or something because she thought I
Speaker 1: was distracting the class and like, dude, I don't even
Speaker 1: sit on that side of the classroom. What the are
Speaker 1: you talking about? And it all I was. It was
Speaker 1: always very tense. And then I had other teachers who
Speaker 1: knew I was I could be disruptive, but like would
Speaker 1: come at me into like, hey, look, I know you
Speaker 1: got you get excited, you want to talk to your friends,
Speaker 1: but like just help me out and just kind of
Speaker 1: like cool. It when you do it, and that approach
Speaker 1: all like, I was always more respectful with those teachers
Speaker 1: who are like, hey, I get it, you know, like
Speaker 1: I get you, but like please shut up. And I
Speaker 1: was like, okay, cool, versus like here he goes the
Speaker 1: loud kid again, throwing up gang signs, ruining our class picture,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, get back in your thunderbird already at least. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing that was super interesting to me
Speaker 1: about this research was that when he when this, when
Speaker 1: the psychologist recruited teachers for the study, he didn't actually
Speaker 1: tell them that they were doing that. He was like
Speaker 1: doing an intervention with them. What he told them was
Speaker 1: he was they were being recruited to kind of reflect
Speaker 1: and review best practices in teaching might and review. And
Speaker 1: so they were given this material that talked about how
Speaker 1: important trusting relationships are and how important it is to
Speaker 1: not label a student or assume that that the teacher
Speaker 1: knows why a student is behaving that way, and to
Speaker 1: instead look for maybe situational reasons that a student is
Speaker 1: behaving that way rather than fix it to like some
Speaker 1: kind of essential aspect of that student. And so they
Speaker 1: were yeah, so exactly, they were kind of they were
Speaker 1: told that they were just reviewing best practices and and
Speaker 1: then they reviewed things like how how students felt when
Speaker 1: they felt respected and how that helped them learn. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the results were pretty spectacular in terms of
Speaker 1: actually like changing the dynamic. It's wild how much we
Speaker 1: ask of our teachers too already, right like, because on
Speaker 1: top of you know, the many teachers who listen to
Speaker 1: this show, again, thank you so much. I'll continue to
Speaker 1: retweet your wish lists, but the added sort of task
Speaker 1: of like, yeah, look, some kids are not supported at
Speaker 1: home and are going to come in here. And then
Speaker 1: also we also need you to have these skills to
Speaker 1: be able to make sure that they can navigate life
Speaker 1: because they're not going to be through this like chaotic
Speaker 1: sequence of like not trusting people in authority positions and
Speaker 1: what that turns into an adulthood. Just just WoT how
Speaker 1: much we ask. That's why very a thank a teacher
Speaker 1: when you see them, because that's why I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: because I think of the teachers who actually tried to
Speaker 1: understand me rather than just kind of be like this
Speaker 1: guy's a disruptive asshole. It was like, thank you, and
Speaker 1: that helped me be more interested in like school at
Speaker 1: the end of the day rather than like feeling like
Speaker 1: I was going to a place where we're just going
Speaker 1: to be like, you're bad. That's so dope though, that
Speaker 1: that you've that the study found that the training like
Speaker 1: it is changeable. It's not a fixed problem. It's it's
Speaker 1: something where training teachers to you know, just focus on
Speaker 1: this this part of their relationships with students, like makes
Speaker 1: makes an impact. Is that is that something that's like
Speaker 1: generalizable to healthcare and you know other places is at
Speaker 1: the empathic discipline kind of being being adopted law enforcement.
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's a really it's a really interesting question.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think what that like if if you
Speaker 1: zoom out a little bit, I think what this approach
Speaker 1: shows is that if you if you want to address
Speaker 1: people's biases, one thing that can work that we see
Speaker 1: in this education research is enhancing their other values, like
Speaker 1: boosting their commitment to values like trusting relationships and respect
Speaker 1: and mutual understanding and avoiding labeling. And so if you
Speaker 1: kind of boost and like amplify those values, then that
Speaker 1: can override these automatic responses that that we might have
Speaker 1: toward one another. So it kind of like, yeah, it's
Speaker 1: almost it's like it's like, I don't know, like a vitamin,
Speaker 1: like a kind of steroid, like you you give your
Speaker 1: other values steroids, and then it kind of like over
Speaker 1: this metaphor is falling apart. Sorry, Okay, we're a pro steroids.
Speaker 1: We're always were both we're both on cycles right now.
Speaker 1: So you do a hit a balco straight in an
Speaker 1: empathy zone, everyone is completely juice. Yeah, yeah, so but no,
Speaker 1: it's true bigger. My heart was enlarged. Also, heart only
Speaker 1: grew three eyes that day. By Yeah, I'm glad that you.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned policing, because yes, there there is
Speaker 1: also really interesting work done in policing that I that
Speaker 1: I talked about in my book. Actually that looks at
Speaker 1: like how you change police behavior basically, like how you
Speaker 1: actually get police to behave in respectful, kind humane ways
Speaker 1: rather than just avoid like breaking the law and avoid
Speaker 1: just like criminal behavior and that. Yeah, and I think
Speaker 1: you know, in that case, it's a lot about creating incentives,
Speaker 1: like we talked about. You know, I was just at
Speaker 1: a meeting actually here in Minneapolis talking about improving police
Speaker 1: behavior and accountability, and everyone focuses primarily on accountability and
Speaker 1: correct punishment for you know, for failure, we need more guardrails,
Speaker 1: more guardrails kind of thing, man exactly. And that's like,
Speaker 1: really it's totally important. I mean, it creates like a
Speaker 1: floor below which you cannot go in terms of bad behavior.
Speaker 1: But I think we miss something when we talk about this,
Speaker 1: because culture is not just what you punish, but it's
Speaker 1: also what you reward. And I think if we if
Speaker 1: we just talk about punishment without talking about what we're
Speaker 1: actually trying to reward and incentivize and like the kind
Speaker 1: of behavior we actually want, then we only kind of
Speaker 1: have half the half the story. Yeah, And even in
Speaker 1: like that guardrail metaphor, it's like if I think of
Speaker 1: a cop as a bowler, like do you want the
Speaker 1: guys like, yeah, put the bumpers up because I'm sloppy
Speaker 1: as shit, or someone who's like there's a there's someone
Speaker 1: in need. I know how to like solve it. Let
Speaker 1: me just bowl of strike here. I don't need guardrails
Speaker 1: because I'm focused on a different version, which is like
Speaker 1: I'm out of control. How do you contain that? Mhm?
Speaker 1: I want that guy who said, who do you think
Speaker 1: you are. I am that's metaphor. But yeah, Jack, to
Speaker 1: your question about values, I mean like if you can
Speaker 1: generalize that the education work to policing, I mean I
Speaker 1: think that you can create incentive structures. In fact, there's
Speaker 1: a there's a small group in l A the Community
Speaker 1: Safety Partnership that um there was just an independent evaluation
Speaker 1: of this particular police program which was designed around changing incentive.
Speaker 1: So officers were rewarded for building relationships instead of making arrests,
Speaker 1: and so the value was in the relationship. That's what
Speaker 1: they were actually being rewarded for. And the analysis that
Speaker 1: came out of this of that program found that it
Speaker 1: did change police behavior actually, and it also declused violent crime.
Speaker 1: That's very cool. Shout out to l A is that
Speaker 1: that was an l A p D. It was believe it, Yes,
Speaker 1: it was l A p D. It was a small
Speaker 1: group that's currently headed by a mod of ting Gardis,
Speaker 1: Deputy Chief of Modit ting Gartis, And it was like
Speaker 1: a small pilot program that started in in bots In
Speaker 1: I want to say, two thousand eleven with like forty
Speaker 1: officers that were tasked with creating relationships and were rewarded
Speaker 1: on the basis of whether they created relationships with the community.
Speaker 1: That's very cool. All right, let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1: We'll be right back with your underrated and obrated. And
Speaker 1: we're back and Jessica, we like to ask our guests,
Speaker 1: what is something do you think is underrated? Telepathy? Mm
Speaker 1: hm epathy. I think if we we just learned that
Speaker 1: Trump can telepathically declassify documents, I think we are all
Speaker 1: using telepathy far too little. Yeah, and I would like
Speaker 1: to start using it to pay my car insurance and
Speaker 1: resolve long running disputes with the cable company. Well, first
Speaker 1: step is you got to start an account at ruth Social,
Speaker 1: just like he did. And he's like, by virtue of
Speaker 1: this tweet I hear about like I was like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, he's really doing the fucking Michael Scott, I
Speaker 1: declare bankruptcy a bit from the office, but with declassifying
Speaker 1: top secret documents. Okay, I'm not up on this story.
Speaker 1: What what do you do? He thought, because of the
Speaker 1: whole talk about declassifying things, there was a hold, I'll
Speaker 1: pull it up. He had this whole tweet that was like,
Speaker 1: by virtue of this truth Social, it was like very
Speaker 1: heavy handed, right, so yeah, just just the declaration that
Speaker 1: is no longer classified. Yeah, hold on, Like with the
Speaker 1: classification process is notoriously and like iconically very convoluted and
Speaker 1: needs to go through so many layers of bureaucracy. The
Speaker 1: fact that he thinks he could just declassify something over
Speaker 1: true Social is proves to me that he's not even
Speaker 1: trying anymore. I feel like, well, yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: think he's trying to do anything he can write, because
Speaker 1: there's like multiple narratives ones like oh no, maybe he
Speaker 1: you know, very benignly just took these documents that we're
Speaker 1: gonna skiff like in a secured area. Or he's like, well,
Speaker 1: if that's not the case, then I'm able to do
Speaker 1: classify anything anyway, just like this truth Social said, because
Speaker 1: you remember he was trying to do ship like by
Speaker 1: Twitter decree too, and like even then they're like, that's
Speaker 1: not how this works. And even if your president that
Speaker 1: doesn't do that, So, you know, old habits die hard.
Speaker 1: I guess what is something you think is overrated? Overrated?
Speaker 1: I would say box fans. This is a long running
Speaker 1: dispute in my house. My husband is not happy unless
Speaker 1: there are air molecules at very high velocity moving over
Speaker 1: his skin at all times. We have like fans going
Speaker 1: in every room and it dries me insane because I
Speaker 1: like still on moving air. It makes me sound a
Speaker 1: little strange. Wait is he just hot? Is that why?
Speaker 1: Like he's just like yeah, wait, so do you have
Speaker 1: a lot of Bob I like how you caught up
Speaker 1: box fans? It's not like air conditioner running that full blast,
Speaker 1: having a ton of fans going like box fans, because
Speaker 1: he just like in a room with like four box fans,
Speaker 1: like set up in a square that he's in the
Speaker 1: middle of, and he's like, yes, peace, I know peace.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, well dedication to the bid. Yes, respect
Speaker 1: on a lot of box fans. Yeah, yeah, I run hot.
Speaker 1: I I like a box fan because that's the cheapest
Speaker 1: way to keep mosquitoes away from you without having to
Speaker 1: because the mosquito problem is terrible in l A if
Speaker 1: you're outside. Sadly, we used to not have that issue,
Speaker 1: but box fans are especially for people like me who
Speaker 1: like just get bit up all the time. I can't
Speaker 1: recommend him enough. Oh, maybe I need to rethink my
Speaker 1: box fan relationship. No, no, of course, I just like
Speaker 1: to like your air. Look, I hope your husband's listening,
Speaker 1: and yeah, may be, let's dial back the air speed
Speaker 1: a little bit. Okay, please for everybody's sake. But just
Speaker 1: living in a wind tunnel, you guys have to talk that.
Speaker 1: You're like, hello, can you hear me? Let you turn
Speaker 1: off one of your fans. Sorry, it's too hot in here.
Speaker 1: I can't do anything right now. Well, I mean, actually,
Speaker 1: it connects. I haven't thought about this. It connects to
Speaker 1: bias because, um, like, offices are kept at a temperature
Speaker 1: that is comfortable for men. Men are a little bit
Speaker 1: warmer than women, and so yeah, I think women women
Speaker 1: of the world are are a little bit cold. Unfortunately.
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm like, I run hot like typically like
Speaker 1: like my wife, she's like, do please get away from me,
Speaker 1: like like your body, your body's emanating so much heat.
Speaker 1: Like I'm like, I don't know what's going on. Man, Okay,
Speaker 1: I've been like this is how I was a kid.
Speaker 1: Um So, I tend to sweat, but I like the
Speaker 1: air over my skin. I'm currently sweating through my shirt
Speaker 1: right now. I saw you giving yourself the little shirt
Speaker 1: fans and little shirt fans are those are underrated turning
Speaker 1: your shirt into a little thing. That's also the sign
Speaker 1: that like it's bad, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: when you get to that point you're like shirt fan,
Speaker 1: shirt fan shirt. I mean, that's just that's an everyday
Speaker 1: thing for me. All right, Miles. So Tucker, Tucker came back.
Speaker 1: He took a week off kind of unannounced, but I
Speaker 1: had some great guest hosts and then he's back, and
Speaker 1: we we we were speculating that maybe it was like
Speaker 1: Alex Jones thing that had him shook and that's why
Speaker 1: he was he was m I A, we don't really know,
Speaker 1: but he was doing his homework and he's ready to
Speaker 1: go to civil war question. I don't know. Um, Like
Speaker 1: we said last time, when the news came out about
Speaker 1: Alex jones cell phone data becoming like getting into the
Speaker 1: hands of uh Sandy Hook lawyers and then potentially the
Speaker 1: January six Committee, they're saying Tucker was quote scared shitless
Speaker 1: because him and Alex Jones talk all the time. Now,
Speaker 1: who knows what's in there, but that was one theory.
Speaker 1: But he was gone, came back and yeah, like we
Speaker 1: were saying, we're like, I'm not sure where the right
Speaker 1: is going with this documents ship. First it's like, well,
Speaker 1: what is the definition of a nuke or like a
Speaker 1: document or classified? And like when that wasn't going well,
Speaker 1: it's like, well, then Espionage Act needs to go. And
Speaker 1: then it was like the FBI set him up. And
Speaker 1: now Tucker Carlson is just not being very ambiguous. He's
Speaker 1: kind of like saying, there's an odd feeling in the air,
Speaker 1: isn't there, And it would be wise if that were
Speaker 1: brought down. It's of something unprecedented and something awful. You
Speaker 1: could feel it. Even Donald Trump feels it. Maybe for
Speaker 1: the first time in his life. Donald Trump seems sincerely
Speaker 1: interested in lowering the temperature, not just for his own sake,
Speaker 1: but for the country. He said that he's never said
Speaker 1: anything like that. Maybe he doesn't mean it, but what
Speaker 1: has he ever said that this looks you're a little
Speaker 1: He said that you were talking about this isn't good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's right, it's not good, and not just for him,
Speaker 1: for all of us. This could get very bad, very past,
Speaker 1: he said, very past. Um. But he seems a little shook,
Speaker 1: like this is my first time watching these. He seems
Speaker 1: upset as opposed to like usually he has that like Faue.
Speaker 1: I don't know, you know, like like it's very composed outrage.
Speaker 1: Yeah that it's like no man, but like here he's
Speaker 1: like mispronouncing words. He like seems he he looks like
Speaker 1: a little boy more than usual, Like he always looks
Speaker 1: a little bit like a puffy little boy, but here
Speaker 1: he I don't know what what what happened? I mean, look,
Speaker 1: it sounds like again rather than like a specific theory
Speaker 1: trying to explain away why Trump had any of these documents,
Speaker 1: it's now more about being like democrats are trying to
Speaker 1: kill you with justice essentially, what it's distilling down to,
Speaker 1: he said earlier in the show, Joe Biden declared war
Speaker 1: on all of us. And so what's weird is what
Speaker 1: I keep seeing is the punditry and the media takes
Speaker 1: are in one direction, like they're clearly trying to be like, yo,
Speaker 1: we gotta get our heads in the game. Donald Trump
Speaker 1: is in trouble and we need more chaos to maybe
Speaker 1: fight this back, because this seems like, you know, like
Speaker 1: I was saying, we were talking about yesterday like January
Speaker 1: six all over again. But there's like a disconnect between
Speaker 1: their sense of urgency and like what the base is doing. Granted,
Speaker 1: yes there were there was an armed protest outside of
Speaker 1: an FBI office in Arizona. There was that guy in
Speaker 1: Cincinnati who you know, was killed by the FBI like
Speaker 1: after he attacked the FBI office, and there have been
Speaker 1: multiple people have made threats. But in terms of like
Speaker 1: physical space here, I just want to play this other
Speaker 1: clip because this is Eric Trump on the show too,
Speaker 1: and he's also trying to be like, man, the energy
Speaker 1: out there, folks, you gotta see it. It's it's it's
Speaker 1: really something else. And it just feels there's something the
Speaker 1: anger among the mega base exactly. And like also just
Speaker 1: like that everyone's like everyone's head and head is in
Speaker 1: the game. So this is Eric Trump insisting that it's
Speaker 1: so bad that people were just crying at his feet
Speaker 1: when him and Laura were out for dinner. They're not
Speaker 1: even talking about any other Republican candidates because they have
Speaker 1: all kind of disappeared. They're not even in the equation.
Speaker 1: I mean, last night I had an argument between two
Speaker 1: people in a restaurant who are trying to buy Laura
Speaker 1: and I dinner to apologize to what the you know,
Speaker 1: for what the United States government has done to our family, Sean.
Speaker 1: I mean, you wouldn't believe the energy out um m hm.
Speaker 1: So I mean you wouldn't people trying to buy us
Speaker 1: dinner because they're so like that's just like the persecution
Speaker 1: is so bad, famous person. The level of persecution is
Speaker 1: so bad. It's at free dinners bad. Okay, folks. We
Speaker 1: need your heads in the game, folks. The energy out
Speaker 1: here that you're not showing us that we need because
Speaker 1: we're panic is bad. And that's what I'm saying. Like
Speaker 1: there was another thing of there was they tried to organize,
Speaker 1: like Magga people try to organize the protest outside of
Speaker 1: an FBI office. They had to cancel because nobody went.
Speaker 1: And I really think that what we heard in that
Speaker 1: clip yesterday from Laura Ingram it might be one of
Speaker 1: the most accurate sort of details right now, which is
Speaker 1: like they are kind of tired of doing this over
Speaker 1: and over again. Obviously the them being like in the
Speaker 1: Victims Lane is like their preferred mode of outrage. But
Speaker 1: even then there's like something where like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I can just hear it with like Laura English, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, man, I think people are tired of
Speaker 1: like I think she was talking about herself too, like
Speaker 1: I don't want I much rather go like get behind
Speaker 1: a real fascist who knows what they're doing, rather than
Speaker 1: this like circus that I'm a party too right now.
Speaker 1: I mean there anyway that they're also just I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like there's this tweet as dude Ben Wexler, he said,
Speaker 1: there's nothing more nutty than the couple that couple hours
Speaker 1: where all of mega is waiting silently to find out
Speaker 1: what they're supposed to think. And he he tweeted that
Speaker 1: like when all this like nuclear secrets ship went down,
Speaker 1: but I feel like they haven't really like figured out
Speaker 1: what they're supposed to think because the nuclear secrets thing
Speaker 1: is just really bad and they're like like that, so
Speaker 1: they're they're kind of panicking that like there's there's not
Speaker 1: really an angle on this, and it's precisely like it
Speaker 1: fits so neatly into this box that was the but
Speaker 1: her emails world they were so consumed with, and they
Speaker 1: really have. That's why that that clip from Representative Turner
Speaker 1: where they're like you were you were really going hard
Speaker 1: and Hillary Clinton, where's that energy? And all I can
Speaker 1: just like this is different? And then do a word
Speaker 1: salad that wasn't going to take nuclear secrets. No, I
Speaker 1: would never take I would never do that. Oh yes,
Speaker 1: And or we get the thing where people keep evoking
Speaker 1: that Nixon quote. If the president does it, then it's
Speaker 1: not illegal. But uh huh, like nothing is quite. That's
Speaker 1: why it's like really interesting. What they're gonna coalesce around.
Speaker 1: And I think it's just easier right now is just
Speaker 1: to go like this is January six, like the same
Speaker 1: thing they're they're busted, like they lost the election, or
Speaker 1: in this case, it sounds like they have evidence of
Speaker 1: like him actually doing this, this this crime. They're cornered
Speaker 1: and they want to fight their way out of it,
Speaker 1: and it seems like that's kind of the reflex of
Speaker 1: them is to get like, Okay, well now we're in
Speaker 1: a corner. Just start being like the d o j
Speaker 1: is trying to declare war on you you and send
Speaker 1: all these weird fundraising texts trying to shame like MAGA
Speaker 1: donors being like we thought you were a patriot. What happened?
Speaker 1: Donald Trump's way eating on you to help. So it's
Speaker 1: um a lot of a lot of confusion at the moment.
Speaker 1: But are there other indicators other than like, you know,
Speaker 1: them not showing up to protest the FBI and get
Speaker 1: their faces like entered into a database that will make
Speaker 1: it so they never bore a flight ever again without
Speaker 1: like three hours worth of checks. Are there is there
Speaker 1: other indications of like flagging energy other than Laura Ingram
Speaker 1: seeming tired and Tucker Carlson's because if you look, you know,
Speaker 1: like suddenly it's it's wild. Like a lot of the
Speaker 1: conservative posters came out and said, like, hey, actually, Trump's
Speaker 1: he's he's putting a smash onto Santis, right, That's what
Speaker 1: I said, That's what I saw, And so I assumed
Speaker 1: that this was like going to be invigorating. But that
Speaker 1: was also mostly I think that storyline came up before
Speaker 1: people were like it was nuclear secrets and like there's
Speaker 1: this whole ongoing storyline with the Saudias that like he
Speaker 1: was trying to steal nuclear secrets or like reveal nuclear
Speaker 1: secrets to the Saudiast for financial gain, which would be
Speaker 1: one of the most dangerous things that any any single
Speaker 1: human being could do to the current globe. Like that,
Speaker 1: that's that is it? That would be a wild Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you want to say, flagging energy. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, you see the Democrats all very like, yes,
Speaker 1: the polls look favorable fucking finally for Democrats. Uh, and
Speaker 1: they're like, is this a backlash to you know, allowing
Speaker 1: human rights to be rolled back and curtailed by the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court? Who knows, but guess what, we'll take it.
Speaker 1: So the pendulum is like even electorally moving in that tracks.
Speaker 1: I think the problem is the Republicans loved when it
Speaker 1: was like Joe Byron's inflation bonanza and they could keep
Speaker 1: hitting that button. But now they got them being like
Speaker 1: fuck the police, and they're like this is They're like,
Speaker 1: we were back in the funk out the blue a
Speaker 1: second ago. Now it's fun the defund the FBI, And
Speaker 1: I'm and then again we're like ironically, I mean, sure
Speaker 1: you've got something there, but maybe you don't have the
Speaker 1: full picture. But I think it's just a it's difficult
Speaker 1: because you're not You're also in a time when there
Speaker 1: are plenty of like lived experiences that you could use
Speaker 1: to turn into like more populist talking points. They're completely
Speaker 1: just focused on defending Trump. And then like, you know,
Speaker 1: sure there are those conservatives who are like yeah, man,
Speaker 1: leave them alone. And there are other people who I'm
Speaker 1: sure probably like fun man, like life's sucking hard, Like
Speaker 1: does someone have a solution here? And it's yeah. And
Speaker 1: in that sense, I'm sure it's it's not energizing if
Speaker 1: you're somewhat if you're not all in on you know, fascism. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, well, I mean we we don't know, we'll
Speaker 1: we'll keep an eye on it, but it's gonna be Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's gonna I'm sure we're gonna see a lot more
Speaker 1: you know, thrashing from that side before, not though, for sure,
Speaker 1: because that's just that's what we see. And yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, it's like one of those things
Speaker 1: where I'm never gonna be like, yeah, karma has arrived
Speaker 1: because you never fucking no, it's display America. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 1: But like I said, I will revel in these moments
Speaker 1: where I see that they're they're they're struggling with this
Speaker 1: one before, Like I really hated it when everything was
Speaker 1: like that. It's fake news. It gives a ship, move on,
Speaker 1: nothing fucking fucking effect us. Well, move on. I don't
Speaker 1: care if they're like allegations of assault against this guy.
Speaker 1: We move on now. They're like, well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: and that is I mean, that's that's different. And I
Speaker 1: will welcome that mhm, that I did return his passports. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's three of them. Two. It's the little winds, the
Speaker 1: little winds that that maybe maybe he'll that'll that'll get
Speaker 1: them through the day. Yeah, all right, let's take a
Speaker 1: quick break. We'll come back and we'll talk about bias
Speaker 1: in the media and where it comes from. H And
Speaker 1: we're back, And how's your pointing out there's a threat
Speaker 1: on Twitter that's you know, pointing to something that we
Speaker 1: we've talked about before. I think like the yeah, the
Speaker 1: you know, insidiousness of unpaid internships being sort of a
Speaker 1: formal like, well, you gotta do a year of unpaid
Speaker 1: internships to to get the gig. And it's like, well,
Speaker 1: but how how do I do that when I the
Speaker 1: the game in this country is I need job to survive? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: If you could do like eighteen months of no money,
Speaker 1: then we we may open the doors. And this author,
Speaker 1: David Dennis Jr. Black author, journalist, and he's he had
Speaker 1: this stread. He's like, I've been writing about this for
Speaker 1: a long time. But I just want to keep underscoring
Speaker 1: how the you know, when people are talking about like
Speaker 1: what's going on in our newsroom, was like, why are
Speaker 1: we both sides thing like the most like grotesque creatures
Speaker 1: on the planet or like giving them like the the
Speaker 1: deference of like someone that absolutely doesn't deserve it, talking
Speaker 1: about how we really need to look at how the
Speaker 1: newsrooms are filled. Specifically in his experience, is trying to
Speaker 1: break in as like a newsroom journalist, and in many
Speaker 1: media and I think many media operations are like this.
Speaker 1: It's not just journalism. It can be video, it can
Speaker 1: be film, television, publishing. If you want to be an agent,
Speaker 1: there will be like this thing. It's like the unpaid
Speaker 1: internship that's your way in. And he's saying that when
Speaker 1: you look at like places like the New York Times
Speaker 1: or these other big newsrooms, and why are people are
Speaker 1: like why how are they so out of touch? How
Speaker 1: are they like like barely having a beat of sweat
Speaker 1: looking at like like our you know, rapid loss of
Speaker 1: rights or extremism in the country. It's because the pipeline
Speaker 1: to that place is just already out of step with
Speaker 1: the lived reality of Americans and he's talking about how
Speaker 1: your way in is typically an unpaid internship, and if
Speaker 1: you are someone who doesn't have the support system to
Speaker 1: not make money while working eight hours a day, that
Speaker 1: means your opportunities dwindle. But the people who are able
Speaker 1: to do that tend to be affluent, typically white Americans
Speaker 1: who are able to you know, be like, yeah, oh yeah,
Speaker 1: my parents can support me for two years if I
Speaker 1: don't work, and so that way I'm you know, I'm
Speaker 1: I'm blessed enough to get my foot in the door
Speaker 1: to get into these new newsrooms. And he's saying, because
Speaker 1: of that, you just get this one note thinking where
Speaker 1: a lot of people are looking at life through the
Speaker 1: same narrow perspective and thus report the news from that
Speaker 1: vantage point, and they all respond to the criticisms the
Speaker 1: same way because they're all kind of coming from the
Speaker 1: same place. And I was just like, oh right, that
Speaker 1: that that is that that makes the perfect sense. And
Speaker 1: he's saying, that's why they're spending a lot of inches
Speaker 1: talking about culture war stuff or cancel culture when a
Speaker 1: lot of people are like, what about inequality? What about
Speaker 1: police violence? What about all of these other threats that
Speaker 1: we're facing and yeah, like it just saying that because
Speaker 1: of that, and for if we constantly put people through
Speaker 1: this first hoop, which is, are you affluent enough to
Speaker 1: not you know, make money for a year and a half,
Speaker 1: then of course we're going to get this kind of
Speaker 1: thinking across the board. And like you're saying, in many industries,
Speaker 1: I'm sure many people have seen this, not just in media,
Speaker 1: but anywhere that uses on paid internships. You know, it
Speaker 1: reminds me of, um, this observation that was made in
Speaker 1: the early days of computing in this country. There was
Speaker 1: this computer scientist named George Conway who noticed that the
Speaker 1: structure of a piece of software always reflected the team
Speaker 1: that created it, and it came to be known as
Speaker 1: Conway's law, which was basically like software always exhibits the
Speaker 1: features of the people who created it, the team that
Speaker 1: created it. And I think that's that's like true in
Speaker 1: every field, right, Like what you see being produced is
Speaker 1: a reflection of the makeup of the people that are
Speaker 1: producing it. And I think it goes even beyond internships.
Speaker 1: I mean, like I'm thinking about publishing. I mean, salaries
Speaker 1: and publishing are like notoriously really low, and publishing is
Speaker 1: in new York City. So if so, basically, you know,
Speaker 1: the sort of the whole industry is premised on the
Speaker 1: idea that you are going to have some kind of
Speaker 1: cushion or you're gonna have some kind of way to
Speaker 1: live in New York City on this like rock bottom
Speaker 1: salary for years while you like work your way up
Speaker 1: the ladder. So it's like no surprise at all that
Speaker 1: publishing is as homogeneous as it is, right or And
Speaker 1: they also speak to the fact of, like even making
Speaker 1: a way in a newsroom, you're gonna have to come
Speaker 1: past editor after editor, and if you realize an editor
Speaker 1: likes this perspective a lot more than that perspective, just
Speaker 1: by virtue of being a worker, you're going to be like, well,
Speaker 1: my work is going to fit into that because I
Speaker 1: want to please my boss. And even then you can
Speaker 1: start to see all these other patterns that emerge in
Speaker 1: there too, And like to your point, I think it
Speaker 1: might have been Michael Crichton who was like pointing out that,
Speaker 1: like there's a like a huge problem like in sign
Speaker 1: typic research where English is like the standardized language for
Speaker 1: scientific research and by every like for so much scientific
Speaker 1: thought to be processed in one language is going to
Speaker 1: create a lot of rigidity and could potentially create a
Speaker 1: problem down the road that people aren't seeing because everyone
Speaker 1: is forced to think about problems in English versus the
Speaker 1: syntax or structure of many other languages. Shows that people
Speaker 1: even problem solve in different ways because of language that
Speaker 1: you kind of see the same thing, Like if people
Speaker 1: are continually being one note, then they're going to fail
Speaker 1: to actually identify things because of this just sort of
Speaker 1: like a pattern of like normativity that comes through with
Speaker 1: sort of getting the same kind of people the same
Speaker 1: backgrounds and things like, Yeah, that Conway law thing is interesting.
Speaker 1: I wasn't familiar with that, Like just the idea that
Speaker 1: like when so many small decisions are making up kind
Speaker 1: of the overall structure, the overall like substance of a thing,
Speaker 1: that like the people making those decisions just necessarily kind
Speaker 1: of imprint themselves on the sort of d n a
Speaker 1: of any of any program totally. I mean, if you
Speaker 1: think about like the architecture of Twitter, like Twitter was
Speaker 1: created by a group of white men who you know,
Speaker 1: when they were growing up with like bulletin boards in
Speaker 1: the eighties, didn't experience harassment. They didn't experience like abuse,
Speaker 1: you know, in chatters and bulletin boards and so like,
Speaker 1: they didn't even think about like building that into the
Speaker 1: architecture of Twitter because they hadn't experienced it. So like,
Speaker 1: if you if you'd had like a more diverse group
Speaker 1: of people in that room, you know, when when Twitter
Speaker 1: was getting created, I think we would see like a
Speaker 1: different product architecture. And I mean similarly, I wonder, you know,
Speaker 1: if there had been a more diverse group of people
Speaker 1: in the early days of Facebook, Like would what if
Speaker 1: there had been people from you know, a variety of
Speaker 1: different nationalities and backgrounds and countries, Like would would there
Speaker 1: have been more of like an immune system built in
Speaker 1: to the product architecture because you would have had a
Speaker 1: more diverse group of people. Start thinking about how this
Speaker 1: was going to play out in the world. If one
Speaker 1: of the people who had been like rated as not
Speaker 1: hot on Mark Zuckerberg's face smash had gone on to
Speaker 1: invent Facebook instead of Mark Zuckerberg, Like, but we'd probably
Speaker 1: live in a better world. Yea, that architecture is built
Speaker 1: on horny rate and we have problems because that base
Speaker 1: idea turned into this other thing. Yeah yeah, yeah, maybe,
Speaker 1: but yeah I mean it is like I just even
Speaker 1: think about I know, like there are two anchors on
Speaker 1: MSNBC who like kind of fit this description, where like
Speaker 1: they both went to the most expensive high schools in
Speaker 1: l A. Connected families, and yeah, are like at the
Speaker 1: at the apex of like television journalism. But I'm sure
Speaker 1: they had I mean, they're talented people. But again, there's
Speaker 1: always like there's so many people that just in general
Speaker 1: in the public, we don't realize how much of a
Speaker 1: lego most of these people have had all the time.
Speaker 1: And just you know, that's a whole other issue too
Speaker 1: that feeds into people's ideas of self forth and we're like,
Speaker 1: you're only looking at these very privileged cases a lot
Speaker 1: of the time. Wouldn't it be amazing? I think about
Speaker 1: this a lot, Like in the arts and creative work
Speaker 1: in general, wouldn't it be amazing if there was like
Speaker 1: radical transparency and you could see, when you you know,
Speaker 1: observe someone whatever what they were doing in their career,
Speaker 1: you could also see like what, like what the money
Speaker 1: situation was that created the possibility for that achievement. I
Speaker 1: think that would be so illuminating. Who knows, I'm sure
Speaker 1: with like wearable technology, like there will soon enough you
Speaker 1: can like look at someone, but that's fucking creepy. But
Speaker 1: it'd be like wearable technology was invented by somebody whose
Speaker 1: parents were in the prison and like millionaires off the
Speaker 1: prison industrial complex, and they were like, what if we
Speaker 1: could take this even further right and monitor people where
Speaker 1: they are before we put them in prison like that,
Speaker 1: that's that's just a guess, right. Oh. I was just
Speaker 1: thinking just what you were saying about science and how
Speaker 1: even just are talking about science and thinking about science
Speaker 1: is kind of constrained by the fact that it's only
Speaker 1: in one language, with one set of syntax and one
Speaker 1: kind of way of of expression. Makes me think about
Speaker 1: the fact that in like the field of ecology, from
Speaker 1: most of the twentieth century, ecologists thought about the world
Speaker 1: primarily as being governed by competition, like the natural world
Speaker 1: is being basically a competitive landscape red tooth and claw,
Speaker 1: you know, species vying for limited resources. And some scholars
Speaker 1: have like proposed that the reason that they totally overlooked cooperation,
Speaker 1: which it turns out is actually fundamental to like every species,
Speaker 1: like life on Earth, is that the science just themselves
Speaker 1: were existed within this like heavily competitive scientific establishment, so
Speaker 1: like their whole their the conceptual frameworks that they were
Speaker 1: drawing from, we're all competitive. So that's what they saw
Speaker 1: out in the world, when in fact, like every species
Speaker 1: depends on some kind of mutual, mutually beneficial relationship. But
Speaker 1: they literally couldn't see it because it was kids stuff
Speaker 1: where you're talking about that's in our newsrooms are like
Speaker 1: my uncle's my uncle voted for Trump. He's not that racist.
Speaker 1: Let me do a place on this so people understand
Speaker 1: my uncle is not that bad or whatever. Or these
Speaker 1: are why these things of inequality might might not hit
Speaker 1: my radar because they never they never came that close
Speaker 1: to me where I even considered it. I mean, I
Speaker 1: know it's out there, but for my lived experience, that's
Speaker 1: completely different. And I can see how all of that
Speaker 1: just sort of shapes, you know, just I've seen a
Speaker 1: handful of YouTube videos of the police acting badly, but
Speaker 1: I've also some of those police have gotten dealt with,
Speaker 1: And you know, I've never been nervous when the police
Speaker 1: pulled me over. So I think we're good here, and
Speaker 1: we can go back to using the police as our
Speaker 1: primary source for literally every story about crime and what's
Speaker 1: happening in the city basically, and they're like friend and
Speaker 1: not even taking from the context of the police, like
Speaker 1: you know, they're telling you that to like keep the
Speaker 1: near like the fear up. So there's the budgets increase,
Speaker 1: and there's more like being like, yeah, man, how to
Speaker 1: control man? Just give them all the money they need.
Speaker 1: But yeah, unpaid internships ban them. Shout out to unpaid internships.
Speaker 1: The Economist, which I have to imagine has an unpaid
Speaker 1: internship program just released or didn't just this was earlier,
Speaker 1: but I just I saw it in the real estate
Speaker 1: section of CNBC. I don't know how I entered that
Speaker 1: unholy healthscape, but the real estate section of the NBC
Speaker 1: got my attention with the top ten. Uh, these are
Speaker 1: the top ten best and worst places to live in
Speaker 1: the world. And you won't find the US on either list.
Speaker 1: That was the headline. And so the study is done
Speaker 1: by the Economist Intelligence Unit, presumably with I. I don't
Speaker 1: know where they're getting there here. I guess it's an
Speaker 1: independently run like survey. So first, let's just leave behind
Speaker 1: the fact that the Economist Intelligence Unit thought it was
Speaker 1: cool to steal the valor of the CIA and other
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies. Uh and you know, like that that is
Speaker 1: what they're drawing on their intelligence unit. But the map
Speaker 1: is straight. So they have a map City Livability Index
Speaker 1: March Most livable, least livable. Every single one of the
Speaker 1: least livable cities are in the global South, and all
Speaker 1: of the most livable are like in Western Europe and
Speaker 1: like just traditionally like the United States, Western Europe, New Zealand,
Speaker 1: and then you you can find a couple in Australia shockingly,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's it's not even like subtle bias, right,
Speaker 1: it's the you know. So a writer and the Guardian
Speaker 1: who's from Nigeria pointed out was just comparing you know,
Speaker 1: they had lived in Lagos and you know, Vienna was
Speaker 1: ranked the number one most livable city in the world.
Speaker 1: Lagos was on the bottom ten list. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: was like it lacks culture. Yeah. So this writer is
Speaker 1: pointing out Vienna scored a nineties six out of one
Speaker 1: hundred on their h Culture and Environment category. Well Mozart,
Speaker 1: I mean haled from there. So that's straight up. Lagos
Speaker 1: was fifty three point five and you know they I'm
Speaker 1: guessing they wouldn't have noted that Phila Couti like, and
Speaker 1: you know a lot of his and Afroby like has
Speaker 1: a lasting legacy there. And it's just like the things
Speaker 1: that they are overlooking and the things like it just
Speaker 1: it reeks of like, yeah, well I asked like my
Speaker 1: friends who lived here, and they didn't ask a single
Speaker 1: like person of color or a person who couldn't afford
Speaker 1: to live through an unpaid internship like to respond to
Speaker 1: this survey let alone. You know that they're like crime
Speaker 1: statistics and things like that that are you know, those
Speaker 1: self reported police statistics that are bullshit, you know, are
Speaker 1: are self serving police propaganda. I think that's really interesting
Speaker 1: the idea, right, like because when you look at it,
Speaker 1: and even in that or this writer and the Guardian
Speaker 1: is just talking about like it's so clear that their
Speaker 1: idea of culture is like was it at the met
Speaker 1: the MoMA or something like that, Like that's what culture is,
Speaker 1: and you know the this author is like points out
Speaker 1: rightfully it's like, yeah, you know Picasso was actually inspired
Speaker 1: by like African artists too, write like do you're aware
Speaker 1: of that? Like that that's like the origin of culture
Speaker 1: is actually not in Europe, Right, it's really odd. But yeah,
Speaker 1: like it's weird because it's almost like they're they're trying
Speaker 1: harder to like explain to you why these places you
Speaker 1: like that the like you know, developed economies or like
Speaker 1: ignoring like it's justified. Actually of course, you know, of course, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's this is it is like the well, we put
Speaker 1: a scientific we we used a scientific method to evaluate
Speaker 1: the worth of these places, like a publication that calls
Speaker 1: itself the economist is assigning like economic value to these places,
Speaker 1: and then you know it is ultimately an article about
Speaker 1: real estate and like assigning value to places entire cities
Speaker 1: based on you know, rankings and I don't know, like
Speaker 1: real estate. Just the the longer we've done this show
Speaker 1: and the you know, if you listen to this American
Speaker 1: Life or watch John Oliver, you've witnessed real estate agents anywhere.
Speaker 1: Like it's like there was this American Life episode where
Speaker 1: they sent a white couple to an apartment in New
Speaker 1: York City and a black couple, and the black couple
Speaker 1: was sent away and told there were no apartments, and
Speaker 1: the white couple were immediately shown a bunch of nice
Speaker 1: apartments in the same in the same building and you know,
Speaker 1: you just have like the John Oliver did a similar
Speaker 1: like undercover thing or showed I guess similar undercover footage,
Speaker 1: and like the real estate agent just speaking in you know,
Speaker 1: hushed tones, being like well, this is not these are
Speaker 1: not the type of neighbors that you would want to
Speaker 1: live next to. The like hurt, the hurt the property
Speaker 1: value like this, it's just like it is alive and
Speaker 1: well and it's not just small off the record conversations.
Speaker 1: They have an entire like white supremacist apparatus that is
Speaker 1: enforcing their funked up ideals with you know, seemingly scientific
Speaker 1: evaluations of cities, and it's it's just so out in
Speaker 1: the open, but like done in terms that are just
Speaker 1: like I don't know that I I don't know how
Speaker 1: this article is excusable or like how it's still acceptable.
Speaker 1: And in the modern world. It also just seems like
Speaker 1: an insanely narrow way of thinking about it. If you
Speaker 1: if you think that there's just some kind of like universal,
Speaker 1: universally good city that where everyone is, you know, for everyone,
Speaker 1: because like cities are very different depending on who you are.
Speaker 1: I mean, I live in Minneapolis. This is a city
Speaker 1: that's often very highly rated for things like literacy and
Speaker 1: you know, bookstores and theater seats, and we have some
Speaker 1: of the worst racial disparities in the country in terms
Speaker 1: of education and income and you know, housing segregation and
Speaker 1: so like who you ask, you know, is this a
Speaker 1: good city to live in? Is gonna really determine what
Speaker 1: the answer to that question is? Right, Yeah, And it
Speaker 1: seems like they're only they're like asking a very specific
Speaker 1: kind of like middle class type consumer of like oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I love Vienna, Oh yeah, I love this place, and
Speaker 1: not to knock those places, but yeah, like when everyone
Speaker 1: is sort of looking if most people agree that culture
Speaker 1: is equated or you know, it's it's all about or
Speaker 1: it's defined by being in a museum collection like at
Speaker 1: a your in a European collection or something like that,
Speaker 1: then yeah, that's that's a very specific version. Like someone
Speaker 1: like me who also likes music, I would be just
Speaker 1: as interested to go to like Legos to see the
Speaker 1: shrine where a fellow COUTI is like, you know, his
Speaker 1: son still performs and things like that appeals to me
Speaker 1: more so, Like it's funny when I read that article
Speaker 1: from this where the Nigerian person is giving their critique.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that just sounds weight. Your description of
Speaker 1: Nigeria is way better because they probably didn't ask somebody
Speaker 1: who's like, you were stationed in Nigeria for a few years,
Speaker 1: what was how was that like for you? And they're like,
Speaker 1: oh it was okay. I don't know if I'd go
Speaker 1: back and like okay, thank you. Yeah. Not to mentioned,
Speaker 1: like Vienna had like the highest rate of anti Semitic incidents,
Speaker 1: like this year, like it had like a record number
Speaker 1: of anti Semitic incidents, And I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: factored into this calculation about Vienna being livable for everybody
Speaker 1: either maybe not damn the economist. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that this is a open like the all
Speaker 1: you have to do is look at the map. The
Speaker 1: map is just like not not subtle. It's not it's
Speaker 1: not not subtle whatsoever. Basically, whoa wow, all these places
Speaker 1: the US invaded, right, yeah, yeah, all these places the
Speaker 1: US invaded and that have like been the target of
Speaker 1: CIA and you know, economic like gangsterism by the United States,
Speaker 1: like the weird that those places have don't don't fit,
Speaker 1: don't score well on the economists like s a T
Speaker 1: for city livability. Yeah, well expected better from you. Relationship ended? Yeah,
Speaker 1: all right, Well Jessica, it's been a true pleasure having
Speaker 1: you on the daily zeitgeist. Where can people find you?
Speaker 1: Follow you all that good stuff? Oh? Thank you? Um, well,
Speaker 1: you can find me on my website, Jessica or Dell
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find my book The End of
Speaker 1: Bias A Beginning anywhere books are sold. Support local independent
Speaker 1: bookstores please, and yeah. The book looks at approaches that
Speaker 1: have been shown to change people's behavior, like measurably cause
Speaker 1: people to behave in ways that are more fair and
Speaker 1: more just like some of the examples that we talked about.
Speaker 1: So I would love to hear from you if you
Speaker 1: have a chance to check it out. And if you, oh,
Speaker 1: if you choose to read the book in a book club,
Speaker 1: I am able. As far as I'm able, I will
Speaker 1: zoom into your book club and answer questions and chat
Speaker 1: chat with people. So if you would like to do
Speaker 1: something like that, hit me up on my website. You
Speaker 1: can contact me directly to talk about that as well.
Speaker 1: And great great person to have to speak with for sure.
Speaker 1: Is there a tweet or some other work of social
Speaker 1: media you've been enjoying. Uh, I wouldn't say like enjoying necessarily,
Speaker 1: but I think it's important. There was a tweet that
Speaker 1: came out pretty recently referring to a study of preschool
Speaker 1: teachers where these teachers were asked to show they were
Speaker 1: asked to look at a video of preschoolers to note misbehavior.
Speaker 1: But actually the study was a study of eyes and
Speaker 1: it was used eye tracking to watch where the teachers
Speaker 1: looked on screen. And there was a white boy, a
Speaker 1: white girl, a black boy, and a black girl, and
Speaker 1: they tracked where the preschool teacher's eyes were looking on
Speaker 1: the screen, and they found that the teachers spent significantly
Speaker 1: more time watching specifically the black boy. There wasn't more
Speaker 1: misbehavior coming from him, but that's where their eyes went.
Speaker 1: And so it kind of connects to our conversation earlier
Speaker 1: about how teachers are. You know that those early relationships
Speaker 1: are setting the stage for you know, future trust or
Speaker 1: lack of trust and respect or lack of respect, And
Speaker 1: so I think that study is is pretty important to
Speaker 1: think about. Damn Miles, where can people find you and
Speaker 1: follow you on? What's a tweet you've been enjoying? You
Speaker 1: can find me on Twitter and Instagram at Miles of Gray.
Speaker 1: Also obviously check out Myles and Jack got Mad, boost These,
Speaker 1: the NBA podcast, and if you like ninety day fiance
Speaker 1: catch me on four twenty day Fiancee. Uh, let's see
Speaker 1: a tweet that I like. I had one word. Oh,
Speaker 1: this is just a link to an article. I thought
Speaker 1: it was just very interesting and makes it warms my
Speaker 1: heart about gen Z and again Taylor Lorenz at Taylor
Speaker 1: Lorenz wrote an article about gen Z TikTok creators that
Speaker 1: are turning against Amazon, and the tweet is a coalition
Speaker 1: of TikTok creators is pledging to cease all work with Amazon,
Speaker 1: including shutting down storefronts and halting new partnerships until the
Speaker 1: company meets the demands of the Amazon Labor Union. Uh.
Speaker 1: And I was like, damn, it can be about his
Speaker 1: zoomers there we go. Um, so yeah, I'm gonna gonna
Speaker 1: read that one later if I if I howk up,
Speaker 1: if I pony up the money to read the Washington Post.
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien
Speaker 1: and on Miles and Jack. I'm at boost E's uh tweet.
Speaker 1: I've been enjoying. Ron Ivor tweeted, I squat through fifteen
Speaker 1: I bench pressed to Okay, well, well, well you're lifting weights.
Speaker 1: I'm lifting my homie spirits with little jokes and tom
Speaker 1: foolery and then Greta Gremlins. Barbie tweeted, ET is god
Speaker 1: to your eighties blockbuster, but it's cultural impact has diminished
Speaker 1: because it's deeply uncool nostalgia bros won't funk with it
Speaker 1: the same way they funk with Back to the Future whatever,
Speaker 1: because it means engaging with a completely sincere, emotionally devastating
Speaker 1: kids movie. And I agree, ET needs a needs a second,
Speaker 1: a second cultural life, and I think it's getting it.
Speaker 1: I think they're putting it out in Imax as a
Speaker 1: like I always felt he was the ship. Talk about
Speaker 1: Emplican back, Yeah right, I remember balling, yeah man. You
Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at Daily zey Geist. Were
Speaker 1: at the Daily Ziegeist on Instagram. We have Facebook fan
Speaker 1: page on our website Daily zike Guys dot com, where
Speaker 1: we post our episodes on our foot Nope, we link
Speaker 1: off to the information that we talked about in today's episode,
Speaker 1: as well as a song that we think you might enjoy.
Speaker 1: Mile as a song. Do we thank people might enjoy it?
Speaker 1: This is just like kind of very by. The track
Speaker 1: from this artist is called New Ages and you a
Speaker 1: gest And I just did tracks that like start off
Speaker 1: with Alan Watts spoken word, just such a specific kind
Speaker 1: of vibe and it just reminds me of being in
Speaker 1: college when I first read the book by Alan wattson
Speaker 1: what's the funk Man? Like, what are we talking about here? Uh?
Speaker 1: And this track you hear his voice and it's called Dreams.
Speaker 1: But the production is really kind of cool, so it's yeah,
Speaker 1: check this out, New Ages with Dreams, all right. Well.
Speaker 1: Daily Zych is a production by Heart Radio for More
Speaker 1: podcast for my Heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 1: That's gonna do it for us this morning. But we're
Speaker 1: back this afternoon to tell you what's trended and we'll
Speaker 1: talk to you all then. Bye bye By