Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season to fifty two,
Speaker 1: Episode two of Days Like Guys, a production of My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. This is a podcast where we take a
Speaker 1: deep dive into America's shared consciousness. It's Tuesday, August two,
Speaker 1: which of course means it's you know, getting getting shout
Speaker 1: out to my dad. It's his birthday day. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that's his birthday day, Big Todd, shout out to you.
Speaker 1: And also National beach Day National posted Marshall birthday. Beach
Speaker 1: Day coming on coming late in the summer, because maybe,
Speaker 1: like Labor Day is like you're sort of saying like,
Speaker 1: here's your last kind of yeah, your last chance, assholes,
Speaker 1: get it in. I think that's the voice that my
Speaker 1: beach Day speaks in. It's just very it's like a bully.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like an exhausted bully, or like a
Speaker 1: mean gym teacher. Right, all right, gip shit enough jackass
Speaker 1: in a round, Get out there to the beach. Get
Speaker 1: out there. I know you're gonna be on the beach
Speaker 1: chasing girls. All right. Anyways, my name's Jack O'Brien a,
Speaker 1: k ya Jack Horseman. I think that's gonna be a
Speaker 1: regular one. Let's courtesy of Miles Gray and I'm thrilled
Speaker 1: to be joined by my co host, Mr Miles Gray.
Speaker 1: You know, Miles Gray just still feeling that Valley dried
Speaker 1: the Lord of lankershim to day o'noho his battle in
Speaker 1: the building. Spre month artist, your boy Kasamo, So thank
Speaker 1: you for having me, Well mine was. We're thrilled to
Speaker 1: be joined by a designer, activist curator CEO of Epic
Speaker 1: det gave, the author of the new book Radical Curiosity,
Speaker 1: questioning commonly held believes to imagine flourishing futures. It seth
Speaker 1: golden bird. What's up that much? Good to be here?
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Yeah, thanks for doing it absolutely?
Speaker 1: Where you coming to us from out there the world?
Speaker 1: I am in New York City today? Okay, all right?
Speaker 1: How's the wind good? All right? Oh yeah, on Friday?
Speaker 1: Are some of our people who would work in New
Speaker 1: York Like, it's a storm right now, right right, it's
Speaker 1: a storm, right now, It's a storm weather report, like
Speaker 1: to tune into the weather storm right now. Have them
Speaker 1: tell me it's a storm right now. Bob. If you're
Speaker 1: and you tell tell us what is Epic Decade. What
Speaker 1: you guys are like kind of a lot of things, right,
Speaker 1: We are a lot of things. Epic Decade is a
Speaker 1: design studio. We are a merry band of biologists and
Speaker 1: anthropologists and graphic designers and strategic thinkers who take on big,
Speaker 1: complex challenges. Nice. How did that all come together? I've
Speaker 1: I've read a few interviews with you and in a
Speaker 1: little bit of your book, and I know you talk
Speaker 1: about the salons of your uh and is that sort
Speaker 1: of like that was a big inspiration or you Also,
Speaker 1: it seems to me just with how you look at
Speaker 1: the world, you think everything is multifaceted. Henceforth, it's always
Speaker 1: good to have a diverse, paliative opinions to sort of
Speaker 1: take something on. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah. I mean I I
Speaker 1: began as a as an artist, as a painter first
Speaker 1: and foremost I was I went to Rhode Island School designed,
Speaker 1: I went to art school to be an oil painter,
Speaker 1: and kind of recently wandered into the field of design.
Speaker 1: But I think whether you're an artist or a designer,
Speaker 1: for me, it's all about asking questions. So you know,
Speaker 1: this book really for me was a way to make
Speaker 1: sense of a very interdisciplinary practice but kind of simplify
Speaker 1: it down to say, no matter what kind of craft,
Speaker 1: what kind of format, what kind of industry work we're
Speaker 1: we're working in, we are asking the thorniest, craziest, most
Speaker 1: essential questions of our time. All right, well, we're gonna
Speaker 1: get to some of those craziest essential questions. First, we're
Speaker 1: gonna tell our listeners a couple of things we're talking about.
Speaker 1: I mean, mainly we're gonna we're gonna talk about your book,
Speaker 1: just the the subject of imagination and curiosity, and the
Speaker 1: thing we talked about a lot on this show being
Speaker 1: that we we lack the imagination for something different, a
Speaker 1: different version of how we come together. It's either what
Speaker 1: we've been given in this like sort of status quo
Speaker 1: of the Western world with like a market that kind
Speaker 1: of dictates everything, or it's a dystopia like it's Mad
Speaker 1: Max that and there's like not not much else and
Speaker 1: that's it. Those are the two versions that that we have.
Speaker 1: So we want to talk to you about why that is,
Speaker 1: what you think some solutions are for that, and just
Speaker 1: generally have a far ranging conversation. If we have time,
Speaker 1: we might even get to right parts Hunter Biden movie,
Speaker 1: which isn't no way to that, but it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it is. It's art. It's great art, and
Speaker 1: we're excited for it. So we're gonna maybe talk about that.
Speaker 1: But before we get to any of its seth we
Speaker 1: do like to ask our guests, what is something from
Speaker 1: your search history that's revealing about who you are or
Speaker 1: where you are as a person. Well, yeah, I've been
Speaker 1: thinking a lot about food recently, and how I don't
Speaker 1: know about you guys, but I don't I don't know
Speaker 1: what to do. When I get into the grocery store.
Speaker 1: It's like there's like a hundred thousand options and I
Speaker 1: gotta get in, I gotta get out. It's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm like weaving through like it's a football match. But
Speaker 1: I've been thinking about nutrition for my own health, and
Speaker 1: I googled how many nutritionists are in the United States? Wow?
Speaker 1: How how many? How many people are in the business
Speaker 1: of nutrition that that is their expertise. They formally register
Speaker 1: with the government as you know, labors six I identify
Speaker 1: as the nustritions sixty six thousand. That's a lot that
Speaker 1: a lot of a little I'm trying to wrap my
Speaker 1: head around, like how comparatively it was going to it's
Speaker 1: scary right that way. I think about it like this,
Speaker 1: there's millions and millions of people growing food, but just
Speaker 1: sixty thousand helping us understand what to put with the
Speaker 1: right right right, Yeah, three million Americans, sixty six thousand
Speaker 1: people are actually knowing how to consume food. Good ratios,
Speaker 1: good ratios. I like those odds. For our health care system,
Speaker 1: for sure, I feel like the there's not really a
Speaker 1: great authority, right, Like even the nutritional information that we
Speaker 1: get is pretty contradictory, and studies come out that debunk
Speaker 1: other studies. But I feel like just generally, when I
Speaker 1: see a study that is like dark chocolate and red
Speaker 1: wine are the keys to long life, which are the
Speaker 1: the two studies that seem to come up every month
Speaker 1: since I was born in the eighties, like that that,
Speaker 1: I don't know. It seems very confusing and like there's
Speaker 1: no real center of gravity when it comes to like
Speaker 1: our nutritional information. I attribute that largely to the fact that,
Speaker 1: like the government doesn't fund any sort of central nutritional thing,
Speaker 1: and so it's all just like different people trying to
Speaker 1: find different ways to make money, and like massive corporations
Speaker 1: lobbying and stuff like that. But what do you what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts on like sort of the organization, let
Speaker 1: let alone the you know, number, the sheer mass of
Speaker 1: nutritionist in the country, Like what how do you feel
Speaker 1: about like how we get our information on nutrition? Well,
Speaker 1: I think that we know very little about food, a
Speaker 1: surprising and scary amount of information. And it's not even
Speaker 1: about information, And I think it's food as a whole
Speaker 1: culture and set of traditions and lifestyles. And you know,
Speaker 1: I have no real literacy about my experience of food.
Speaker 1: Do you think about it? Right? You go to when
Speaker 1: you go to school. We have literacy for reading, we
Speaker 1: have literacy for mathematics, we have literacy. We have a
Speaker 1: language for so many parts of our lives. But hundreds
Speaker 1: of millions of people around the world don't have a language,
Speaker 1: a kind of health literacy for their experience of food.
Speaker 1: Convenience and price have become the predominant variables and it's
Speaker 1: really it's really killing us, right, yeah, yeah, I can remember.
Speaker 1: It is like the most literacy have is like eat
Speaker 1: eat vegetables. At least I think that's like where my
Speaker 1: like nutrition literacy sort of bottoms out where it's like, well,
Speaker 1: I know that I mean like you gotta balance it.
Speaker 1: Aside from that, then you read constantly stuff where it's like, man,
Speaker 1: you have one serving of dairy that like ups your
Speaker 1: chances of these kinds of cancers, Like and you're like, what,
Speaker 1: I but I had vegetables bones strong, Come on? Yeah,
Speaker 1: well I think you know, uh, it really relates to
Speaker 1: some of the core ideas the book, right, And I
Speaker 1: love that you open with imagination. I mean we're raised
Speaker 1: inside of a variety of what I call legacy narratives.
Speaker 1: And those legacy narratives about food or about home, or
Speaker 1: about family or about money. These ideas are I call
Speaker 1: them legacies because they're they're inherited, you know, we're born
Speaker 1: into them. The decisions about these things happened long before
Speaker 1: we showed up, and they're indoctrinate, they're institutionalized. They're rooted
Speaker 1: into many facets of our lives, and we don't even
Speaker 1: ask questions about them, right right, Yeah, I feel like
Speaker 1: nutrition has gone through, Like in my lifetime, it was
Speaker 1: like the calories and fat content and all all these
Speaker 1: sort of variables that we were meant to pay attention to,
Speaker 1: and like during that time, we have seen like the
Speaker 1: how healthy people eat just like go in the in
Speaker 1: the absolute shitter, like just in terms of yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean like just you know, the obesity epidemic, people just generally,
Speaker 1: I think, feel much worse than I think. You know.
Speaker 1: Michael Pollen has written about the idea of like, you know,
Speaker 1: breaking foods down into these like component parts, where it's
Speaker 1: like there are these four numbers that you need to
Speaker 1: know about each of your foods and how foreign that
Speaker 1: is from long term, you know, deep historical information that
Speaker 1: people had about food. That that was just I think
Speaker 1: somebody raised erased by our understanding of culture. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that evolution is wild too, because it's like food as
Speaker 1: nutrition verse food as coping mechanism, which you know, a
Speaker 1: lot of the times I'll make food decisions to be
Speaker 1: like you know what, fuck my health for this deal,
Speaker 1: Like I want to eat this, And it's not just
Speaker 1: like considering what, like on a continuum, how much of
Speaker 1: this have I been eating? Is that good? Do I
Speaker 1: need to interrupt that? But a lot of the time
Speaker 1: it's sort of dictated by like what I'm feeling in
Speaker 1: the moment rather than what you're talking about. Is even
Speaker 1: like a literacy around with my body actually needs, which
Speaker 1: occasionally it does, and like I go into a full
Speaker 1: on craving for like vegetables and things because I think
Speaker 1: my body thing a asshole. Enough of the taco bell,
Speaker 1: fuck my health being often the entire thesis statement of
Speaker 1: a meal from like I'm gonna do some damage. Here's nuts.
Speaker 1: What is something you think is overrated? Set history? History?
Speaker 1: All right? Well we just boring, You're like snooze fest. Well,
Speaker 1: I say, I say it to be a little provocative.
Speaker 1: I think I think we're imprisoned by much of our history.
Speaker 1: I think that history can be beautiful, history can be critical,
Speaker 1: but at times I think it holds us back. And
Speaker 1: I think we need to up the antie on the
Speaker 1: courage to unchain ourselves from that history and author what
Speaker 1: the future might look like. Right, So, if history is overrated,
Speaker 1: future is underrated. Mhm. I mean as a designer, I'm
Speaker 1: a kind of futurist. My job is to help organizations
Speaker 1: invent the future. And the number one thing that holds
Speaker 1: people back is a comfort with a history that is recognizable,
Speaker 1: right yeah, And and just like default narratives, right like that?
Speaker 1: Like that that's something that I feel like I came
Speaker 1: out of my education feeling like history was pretty settled
Speaker 1: and that was sort of toxic to my my ability
Speaker 1: to feel like curiosity about the world was a lot
Speaker 1: of what I learned in history, which was like dates
Speaker 1: and figures and like this thing happened and that's indisputable
Speaker 1: and that's that, and that's the tidy explanation for all
Speaker 1: of this. What's said to you, like, what's sort of
Speaker 1: like the most insidious way that our sort of attachment
Speaker 1: to history sort of like undermines like our well being,
Speaker 1: our ability to improve life. Yeah, I mean, I think
Speaker 1: even even your gesture there of you know that happened.
Speaker 1: I mean, most of how we retell history is not objective, right,
Speaker 1: So it's it's not as clean as this is what happened.
Speaker 1: Those who win get to tell the story, right, right.
Speaker 1: So there's a fascinating dynamic about history where it's hard
Speaker 1: to not imagine that much of the narratives we embody
Speaker 1: as we learn from history has an ideological bent or
Speaker 1: has a particular bias or a point of view, whether
Speaker 1: that's trill, whether that's race, whether that's who who and
Speaker 1: what perspective told the story. But I think when you
Speaker 1: ask what holds us back? It's as though whoever won
Speaker 1: told the story, and telling the story is a form
Speaker 1: of power, and so there's a power that holds over
Speaker 1: us about the particular models that we learn and live
Speaker 1: by that get passed on as a tradition, right. I mean,
Speaker 1: I tell a joke sometimes I saw a great meme says,
Speaker 1: you know, history is peer pressure from dead people, right,
Speaker 1: And I think part of what we're going through right
Speaker 1: now is information and knowledge is flat, and there's never
Speaker 1: been a shorter distance between information and the power to
Speaker 1: invent an alternative. And so for me, I love the
Speaker 1: idea that we can author new histories in real time
Speaker 1: and that what we're seeing in some ways a great
Speaker 1: deal of the kind of friction and kind of birthing
Speaker 1: pains that I believe our culture is going through right
Speaker 1: now is as an expression of a legacy narrative that
Speaker 1: history kind of dissolving and new challenger narratives, new ways
Speaker 1: of seeing and inhabiting the world are being born. And
Speaker 1: that's like stretch marks to society. Right, Like when you
Speaker 1: see a protest, I mean, when you see an event,
Speaker 1: when you see Black Lives Matter, that's not just a
Speaker 1: protest of that. Cities encounter that is a symbol of
Speaker 1: an old narrative and a new narrative in collision. Right,
Speaker 1: So the past and the future are constantly kind of
Speaker 1: pulling and tugging up against one another. And it'd be
Speaker 1: interesting if we understood what's happening in contemporary life in
Speaker 1: that way, so we could detangle ourselves from narratives that
Speaker 1: frankly aren't working for us anymore. Mm hmmm, like functionally,
Speaker 1: Like I mean, like, what's something specifically right, like if
Speaker 1: you're taking something like I feel like you talk about
Speaker 1: these legacy narratives. I think one that's like really eroding
Speaker 1: is this idea that like, after World War Two, the
Speaker 1: United States was one of the most fantastic places on
Speaker 1: earth to be, you know, and it's like, look at
Speaker 1: everything they had. But then most people like, it wasn't
Speaker 1: like that from my family back then, it wasn't like
Speaker 1: this for this. And then we also get these sort
Speaker 1: of like you're saying, this friction of people that saying like, well,
Speaker 1: if it's so bad, you should leave. Are these people
Speaker 1: not wanting to let go of this idea that it
Speaker 1: was so clean cut that this was prosperity experienced by
Speaker 1: all then something just went wrong. You know, I'm curious,
Speaker 1: like and looking at things like that. How how is it?
Speaker 1: You know, if I guess to keep it to like
Speaker 1: American popular American societ eighty or cultural history, Like, what's
Speaker 1: the thing that you feel Americans should very quickly let
Speaker 1: go of? Well, I think I think it's for me
Speaker 1: the idea of narratives, not so much that it's not
Speaker 1: like the American dream, although that is of course a narrative,
Speaker 1: a story we tell ourselves. It's kind of like even
Speaker 1: just the basic idea of of you know, Maslov's hierarchy
Speaker 1: of needs. Like we're very occupied at epic decade with
Speaker 1: how we will live, learn, work, play, and sustain ourselves,
Speaker 1: like the five big questions of human existence. Right, So
Speaker 1: if you took health, live, right, if you took learn education?
Speaker 1: I mean an example often give is if you ask
Speaker 1: anybody in America is cater twelve public education working for
Speaker 1: every child and is the most beautiful, most innovative, most
Speaker 1: glorious experience on the planet, It's say no. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, we throw you in prison if you
Speaker 1: don't go. Welcome to truancy. So we have these kind
Speaker 1: of ideologies that are kind of in conflict these paradox
Speaker 1: is that we've adopted and kind of just put on autopilot,
Speaker 1: Like the hospital is a place to get healthy. Actually
Speaker 1: maybe maybe not right. Food is food. All food is good.
Speaker 1: It will give you energy. Maybe maybe not right. We're
Speaker 1: just talking. I think you know. It's and it's not
Speaker 1: that it's like yes or no, or like we need
Speaker 1: to let go of something. It's like, you know, the
Speaker 1: idea of radical curiosity is simply too ask questions about
Speaker 1: things that we just assumed are on autopilot. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's more for me. What I would advocate for is
Speaker 1: things that seemed unbreakable are kind of dissolving around us,
Speaker 1: and h lifetime banks that were untouchable dissolved in front
Speaker 1: of our eyes to the financial crisis right in my lifetime.
Speaker 1: Questions you couldn't ask out loud. Are there fifty seven genders?
Speaker 1: Holy shit? My grandparents grew up it was unconceivable that
Speaker 1: there was anything other than a male or female. These
Speaker 1: aren't just like American ideas or even Western ideas. Our
Speaker 1: whole world is revisiting what it means to be human
Speaker 1: right now, so core core things like gender, how long
Speaker 1: we live? You know it should should all society be capitalistic.
Speaker 1: Welcome to presidents running on universal basic income platforms where
Speaker 1: we give away money for free. These are there's small,
Speaker 1: little what I call up ending indicators, but they're not small.
Speaker 1: We're in the process of rebooting the operating system of
Speaker 1: the human condition right now. It's a fascinating time to
Speaker 1: be alive, if you know what questions to ask. Right,
Speaker 1: All right, let's let's take a quick break. We'll come
Speaker 1: back and we'll kind of keep this conversation going. Be
Speaker 1: right back and we're back, and Seth, you were kind
Speaker 1: of talking about your over in it being history and
Speaker 1: you know, future as an underrated Like how as a futurist,
Speaker 1: how do you think about the future? And like you
Speaker 1: know that it is interesting to think that, like we
Speaker 1: have an entire class in major almost every university that
Speaker 1: is history, but like nothing about the nothing really about
Speaker 1: the future. I guess science would be the realm of
Speaker 1: the future and kind of the traditional understanding of how
Speaker 1: this stuff works. But how do you how do you
Speaker 1: think about the future, and and how like kids should
Speaker 1: be thinking about the future, how we should be teaching
Speaker 1: people to think about the future. Well, I love that question,
Speaker 1: I mean, I love that you brought up the Mad
Speaker 1: Max example earlier in the discussion. Right, there's there's a
Speaker 1: section book where I talk about the big business of
Speaker 1: dystopian filmmaking. Right, Mad Max is a great example. There's
Speaker 1: fifty in the past ten years that have made tens
Speaker 1: of billions of dollars all in. Right, somehow we have
Speaker 1: gotten a little more pessimistic and we don't embrace the
Speaker 1: skills and the conversation to develop the future. So if
Speaker 1: your questions about you know, how my young people, how
Speaker 1: my kids, how my universities, you know interesting that you
Speaker 1: frame science as it possible. I think a lot of
Speaker 1: a lot of content areas, a lot of expertise, whether
Speaker 1: it be science. I myself, I'm a designer. Right, design
Speaker 1: has a whole domain about speculative fiction, speculative future scenario modeling.
Speaker 1: I think we do need to invest in the skills
Speaker 1: of future crafting articulating new models, and there are several
Speaker 1: disciplines that are in that business. If you will, maybe
Speaker 1: don't think about or talk about that way, but I
Speaker 1: think that I love the idea of even you know,
Speaker 1: younger people, whether it's you know, hired, but even children
Speaker 1: I mean, one of the seven narratives we focus on
Speaker 1: in the book is about youth, and youth has just
Speaker 1: this kind of you know, the classic like wide eyed
Speaker 1: wonderment of and gauging something new for the first time.
Speaker 1: And somehow our pessimism eradicates wonder from our youthful spirit.
Speaker 1: And I think it's worth making utopian work a part
Speaker 1: of our national narrative. I mean, the World's fair is
Speaker 1: still strong and thriving, but the US doesn't participate so
Speaker 1: much anymore. Right, somehow we've kind of eradicated the practice
Speaker 1: of civic imagination of the future out of our lifestyles,
Speaker 1: and maybe we need to make a whole new space
Speaker 1: and time in our lives to be in the practice
Speaker 1: of writing the future together. Right. And I think like
Speaker 1: we look at, you know, the current state of our worlds,
Speaker 1: and you have absurd wealth juxtap posed with horrific inequality,
Speaker 1: and we're told like, everything's okay, line going up, the
Speaker 1: economy is doing great, and most people, just on a
Speaker 1: very human level, are like, no, that doesn't. Something feels
Speaker 1: terribly off with every single thing I look at. I'm
Speaker 1: looking at a very clear solution to a problem, yet
Speaker 1: we're told like, this absurdity of an option is actually
Speaker 1: the way we we get out of it when it's
Speaker 1: just so clear and we keep falling into the same patterns,
Speaker 1: and it's like as if all of these long held
Speaker 1: ideas and belief systems that sort of allowed humanity to
Speaker 1: sort of flourish to this point are absolutely not useful.
Speaker 1: Like you're saying this, we're sort of like at this
Speaker 1: tension point where these legacy narratives aren't serving us as
Speaker 1: well and in fact are probably becoming the cause of
Speaker 1: a lot of dysfunction. So and because of that, you know,
Speaker 1: you're we talk about this ability to have the curiosity
Speaker 1: right now, what do you like, what do you sort
Speaker 1: of see the in state of our ability to reckon
Speaker 1: with our problems And how does that sort of tie
Speaker 1: into the lack of curiosity or the need for radical
Speaker 1: curiosity that you advocate for. Yeah, I mean, I would
Speaker 1: say one of the kind of thesis or hypotheses that
Speaker 1: led to the book was my concern that curiosity is
Speaker 1: becoming an endangered species. And it's a it's a big idea.
Speaker 1: Curiosity is one of the core defining characteristics of what
Speaker 1: makes human beings human, right and there's a concern that,
Speaker 1: as I've been privileged to work in almost every sector
Speaker 1: with leading organizations, that we're really just administrating the knowledge
Speaker 1: we have. We're managing the models we know, but the
Speaker 1: inquiry to ask really essential questions about what we don't
Speaker 1: know or to challenge what we think we know. And two,
Speaker 1: as you suggest, imagine alternatives is like a rare unicorn
Speaker 1: that you know, you just kind of never see in
Speaker 1: the in the myth, in the clouds. And so in
Speaker 1: part I wrote the book as a kind of manifesto
Speaker 1: to challenge and call attention to how rare the art
Speaker 1: and practice curiosity is. I would say one of the
Speaker 1: things that you when your question that I really like,
Speaker 1: but I would almost you know, challenge and enjoy a
Speaker 1: little dialogue with you, is in some ways, you know
Speaker 1: part of that, you know, when you say you know
Speaker 1: we were told you know, the numbers are good, or
Speaker 1: this is happening, and we just kind of get fed information.
Speaker 1: I think we seek solutions and we're not so comfortable
Speaker 1: not knowing right. So it's not so much that I
Speaker 1: believe that there's just an easy or even difficult hidden
Speaker 1: answer and we just need to uncover it. Curiosity is
Speaker 1: really a lifetime practice. So for example, I would love
Speaker 1: a senator or a president to run for office who
Speaker 1: doesn't have a health care plan. Right, So we put
Speaker 1: all the talking heads on stage and they say, look
Speaker 1: on my website, here's my healthcare bill, here's my education
Speaker 1: reform bill. Why are we so obsessed with answers like
Speaker 1: they are static destinations and we're just choosing in a
Speaker 1: playbook the answers. I wonder if part of what we
Speaker 1: just need is what if a leader stood up, the
Speaker 1: CEO of a corporation, the leader, and government, whatever it
Speaker 1: might be, and said, follow me. I don't have the answer,
Speaker 1: but I would like to launch a process for all
Speaker 1: of us to experiment with possible solutions together. We're obsessed
Speaker 1: with having the answer. I don't know what we have
Speaker 1: all the answers, and maybe we need some humility to
Speaker 1: admit we don't know all the answers, and we need
Speaker 1: to commit to the space and time to figure things
Speaker 1: out together. Yeah. Yeah, And I think the when I
Speaker 1: when I talk about my education, and yeah, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of the blame, probably most of the blame
Speaker 1: is on my ass, like for just being like yeah, whatever, Okay,
Speaker 1: this is what this is, what sciences is, what math is.
Speaker 1: But like one of the and then kind of taking
Speaker 1: a step back, and I had the opportunity to like
Speaker 1: be the editor in chief of a website that where
Speaker 1: we could really like just kind of follow what people
Speaker 1: were interested in at the site called Cracked, And one
Speaker 1: of the things we discover is like curiosity really seemed
Speaker 1: to be something that people craved and like a lot
Speaker 1: of the sort of underlying assumptions that I had made
Speaker 1: and was like sort of in the process of un
Speaker 1: learning after my process of like being educated, was like,
Speaker 1: for instance, then in the realm of like science and math,
Speaker 1: like I think I the assumption I went into my
Speaker 1: education with and like kind of hedge reinforced was like
Speaker 1: what science and math have figured everything out? Like we
Speaker 1: know how everything works. I feel like, you know that's
Speaker 1: and then the thing that got me interested in again
Speaker 1: as an adult was the idea that like just learning
Speaker 1: about all these basic things that science doesn't understand, you know,
Speaker 1: like instead of having it be a long story in
Speaker 1: which people are finding finding out the right answer over
Speaker 1: and over again, like focusing on what just like the
Speaker 1: philosophical aspects of like quantum physics and quantum mechanics, like
Speaker 1: we don't understand end or you know, things about human
Speaker 1: health that we don't understand. You know, why we sleep?
Speaker 1: What sleep is? Why? Like every animal sleeps? Like what? What?
Speaker 1: What is that? Like? Why? You know, there's just a
Speaker 1: lot of like really interesting stuff if you look at
Speaker 1: the questions instead of the answers. But I think, I
Speaker 1: think our educational system and like there's an inherent narrative
Speaker 1: impulse we have to focus on the answers, and people
Speaker 1: people crave the questions. Actually, I love that example. That's great.
Speaker 1: Is there something because I've also heard you know, like
Speaker 1: this idea of we have to like we're really focused
Speaker 1: on the answers, right, And I think is there's probably
Speaker 1: something about our humanity that we look at an existential
Speaker 1: issue and to to know that we can't articulate a
Speaker 1: solution is probably so frightening that it sort of we're
Speaker 1: just in a pattern to just go, well, what's the answer,
Speaker 1: rather than this might be something a lot more complex
Speaker 1: than what the funk do we do? And what's the answer? Right?
Speaker 1: And I've heard you talk about like Obamacare, right, how
Speaker 1: was that really a bill that was about being like well,
Speaker 1: how do we pay for this, and what's who? Where
Speaker 1: where did the cuts come and what what what point
Speaker 1: do the insurance company pay for this? Who's taken a
Speaker 1: hit here? Blah blah blah. Or is it a larger
Speaker 1: conversation about what does it mean to be in this country?
Speaker 1: What healthcare even is, and what's how are we defining
Speaker 1: that because right now we're using a lot of wonk
Speaker 1: and legislatives speak to sort of talk about something that
Speaker 1: I feel like it is much more as, much broader,
Speaker 1: and more integral to human life than something we can,
Speaker 1: you know, go through like a line by line policy argument. Absolutely. Look,
Speaker 1: I study social systems, so health is a social system.
Speaker 1: Learning as a social system, most of business as a
Speaker 1: social system. We have accidentally, inadvertently over time, made all
Speaker 1: of our systems so complicated we don't understand them, we
Speaker 1: don't know how to make them work. We've got have
Speaker 1: lost the plot. I think to your point, the example
Speaker 1: I give an Obamacare is what was really going on there?
Speaker 1: For all of the air time it took up, for
Speaker 1: all of the focus on that Supreme Court decision and
Speaker 1: all the anxiety that came after it, we weren't even
Speaker 1: really asking the question, what do we define health to
Speaker 1: be in our nation? What do we want a good
Speaker 1: healthy life to look like? We're talking about who gets
Speaker 1: the invoice, who gets the bill? Right, So when we
Speaker 1: talk about healthcare, we're often we're talking about the plumbing.
Speaker 1: We're talking about the infrastructure of how the economics moved
Speaker 1: back and forth. And I think what what I'm really
Speaker 1: interested in is why I talk about questioning is it's
Speaker 1: a way to go further upstream to the real core
Speaker 1: stuff that matters and kind of peel back the layers
Speaker 1: of onion and kind of okay, yeah, yeah, that's adorable,
Speaker 1: Like that's the People magazine surface version. We're still just
Speaker 1: moving the chairs on tichek. Let's get to the real stuff.
Speaker 1: Do we want to live to a hundred? Do we
Speaker 1: want all of our resources to pay for the last
Speaker 1: six months of our lives? Do we want our decision
Speaker 1: to be when we live and when we died? We
Speaker 1: wanted to be our doctors, wanted to be our the states,
Speaker 1: Like they're real moral questions that we seem to your point,
Speaker 1: I love the way you're framing it almost afraid to
Speaker 1: really get to the courageous space of talking about the
Speaker 1: real stuff. Yeah right, Yeah, I mean, like the more
Speaker 1: I just stain looking at the book and and your
Speaker 1: interviews and things like that, it does make I'm always
Speaker 1: sort of asking myself like, Okay, look what he's saying
Speaker 1: is sort of like we need this malleability, right, is
Speaker 1: that we're sort of a little because of our reliance
Speaker 1: on these legacy narratives, we've become very rigid. So it's
Speaker 1: just like a question comes in, only one of two
Speaker 1: answers comes out, like and there's no room for anything else.
Speaker 1: And what we need to advocate for is like breaking
Speaker 1: the funk out of that sort of very rigid paradigm
Speaker 1: and to say, well, what is what are we talking about?
Speaker 1: Because for everything we're talking about, like in the news,
Speaker 1: it's like Trump and stealing documents or a student debt
Speaker 1: relief and things like that, we're avoiding these very simple
Speaker 1: questions which a lot of activists are the ones sort
Speaker 1: of carrying that conversation, like what do human beings deserve?
Speaker 1: And what what is our How are we interacting with
Speaker 1: each other in terms of how we're defining these things?
Speaker 1: And it's yeah, and I find that sort of really
Speaker 1: fascinating that like we're like this this the question seemed
Speaker 1: really simple right now, but we're completely we're mudding them
Speaker 1: up and like the most absurd, overly complex debates. So
Speaker 1: one of the things I looked into as part of
Speaker 1: the book that there has been a personal passion of mine.
Speaker 1: I think it gets to one part of your framing.
Speaker 1: There is the idea of awe wright a w e
Speaker 1: a like the spectacle of AWE seeing the Grand Canyon,
Speaker 1: you know, seeing a gorgeous piece of artwork. And we're
Speaker 1: only really recently understanding the psychology and the science of
Speaker 1: even literally what happens in our our neuroscience, our brain
Speaker 1: when we experience aw So the version that the kind
Speaker 1: of interpretive definition that I really latched onto was you
Speaker 1: experience awe when you encounter something that is such a
Speaker 1: vast or big idea. So sometimes the Grand Canyon, the
Speaker 1: scale brings you all, or an idea that conflicts with
Speaker 1: your previous understanding of the world. So either scale from
Speaker 1: my into of your scale, or a concept and idea
Speaker 1: that literally disagrees with like how your head has been programmed,
Speaker 1: and we go, WHOA, that blows my mind? Right, We
Speaker 1: say that colloquially, but blow your mind really means actually,
Speaker 1: it's almost like a neuroscience. Literally, your mind is having
Speaker 1: to accommodate and acquire and reprint, almost like code and
Speaker 1: a computer. How to expand your mind, how to reorganize
Speaker 1: your perception of how the world is. And so AWE
Speaker 1: has this fascinating way to both be a result of
Speaker 1: curiosity and spur and grow a greater sense of thirst
Speaker 1: of curiosity. And what I like about it is that
Speaker 1: kind of like what you were saying earlier, that it's
Speaker 1: not like there's into your point, there's like two there's
Speaker 1: a question and there's two things that spit out on
Speaker 1: the other end. We need to kind of physiologically and
Speaker 1: through other kind of sensory experiences and put ourselves in
Speaker 1: uncomfortable context to let us experience aw and stretch our
Speaker 1: perception of the way things are. You know, we're creature.
Speaker 1: You know you hear that colloquial think, Oh, I'm a
Speaker 1: creature of comfort, I'm a creature of habit. Right, we're
Speaker 1: kind of on autopilot until we put ourselves in physiological,
Speaker 1: sensory or intellectually uncomfortable, unrecognizable context. We just think we
Speaker 1: know it all to your earlier point about math and science. Jack, Right, Yeah, yeah, that,
Speaker 1: And I feel like that was the version of history
Speaker 1: that also turned me off to history, was well, we
Speaker 1: know the story and this is the story, and you know,
Speaker 1: there's we we've been talking in recent episodes about the
Speaker 1: opportunity to discover new ways of of being and experiencing
Speaker 1: human existence through like non Western histories that like we
Speaker 1: have an explored or begun teaching in high school or
Speaker 1: core college curricula like that, that that stuff could fill libraries,
Speaker 1: and there's just this assumption that now this is the
Speaker 1: only one that we need to know. And I think
Speaker 1: there's opportunities there for sure. But I think the chasing
Speaker 1: awe is a good motivating sort of thesis of just
Speaker 1: like to chase the awe is you're you're always going
Speaker 1: to be moving in the right direction, right, And I'm
Speaker 1: curious that like, what, how what do you see out
Speaker 1: there now? Um or maybe there's examples in your book
Speaker 1: that you want to talk about of how you're seeing
Speaker 1: sort of what you're advocating for actually being put into
Speaker 1: practice and what those outcomes look like, because I think
Speaker 1: right now we've had a very sort of much more
Speaker 1: like sort of ten thousand foot view of this. But
Speaker 1: if you if we drill down and zoom in a
Speaker 1: little bit, where, how do you see this sort of
Speaker 1: adoption of radical reosity taking shape? Well, I think you know,
Speaker 1: it's hard not to acknowledge the arrival and the impact
Speaker 1: of the pandemic as a part of that question, right.
Speaker 1: I do think that for as terrible as the pandemic
Speaker 1: was and how many people passed and got sick because
Speaker 1: of it, people in my family, including one of the
Speaker 1: long term positive legacies, is when you go through an
Speaker 1: existential crisis like a pandemic, you have to ask those
Speaker 1: big questions, those hundred thousand foot questions, right Like, when
Speaker 1: you can't go to work, you begin to question what
Speaker 1: work is. When you can't enable your kids to be
Speaker 1: at school, you have to question what school is. So finally,
Speaker 1: by constraint, we are confronted by what did I think
Speaker 1: these models were and what were they not? And I
Speaker 1: think to answer your question, just as that's like a
Speaker 1: little context setting, I do think that the businesses of
Speaker 1: the past are not going to survive. I think we're
Speaker 1: still healing from the pandemic. I think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of repair that's going to need to happen. And I
Speaker 1: think I'm rooting for a genre of social entrepreneurs that
Speaker 1: maybe have been kind of pushed aside and they're like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's cute, that's activism, that's citizenship, that's some other thing.
Speaker 1: But you know, I think we need to like stop
Speaker 1: like making the nine thousand app of the year, of
Speaker 1: the month of swipe left for more bullshit please. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'd like someone to work on water
Speaker 1: and on food, And I think, you know, to your question,
Speaker 1: I think i'm I'm I started with nutrition because I'm
Speaker 1: really starting to get interested in food. I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of legacy narratives getting shaken to the core.
Speaker 1: I look at vertical farming, I look at the problems
Speaker 1: with soil and what nutrients were accidentally eradicating by farming
Speaker 1: at scale. I look at seeds that are never coming back.
Speaker 1: I'm looking at indigenous wisdom that is not being honored
Speaker 1: and is suddenly being brought into the mainstream. I just
Speaker 1: think there's such it's almost like we're kind of back
Speaker 1: to the basics. Like I don't think it's I don't
Speaker 1: know if you've heard this phrase, like it's not the
Speaker 1: great resignation, it's the great simplification. I think we kind
Speaker 1: of just need to say, how do we do, like,
Speaker 1: you know, wake up in the morning? Ship again? Right,
Speaker 1: you mentioned sleep, Like you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: ways to deal asleep. Different parts of the world. Sleep
Speaker 1: has managed very differently. Like I think we're kind of
Speaker 1: ready to get back to those human things, and so
Speaker 1: it's not so much I don't want to name I
Speaker 1: love your question. I don't want to name like this
Speaker 1: brand or this person, but I mean I could certainly
Speaker 1: go there. I think there are a lot of pioneers
Speaker 1: who are just really shaking things up. That the domains
Speaker 1: that they're shaking are things we thought we were done with.
Speaker 1: Like no, we don't know how to feed people at scale,
Speaker 1: actually not in a healthy way, not in a sustainable way.
Speaker 1: So you know, I'm I'm rooting for those guys. Nice Seth,
Speaker 1: Thank you again so much for joining us on the show.
Speaker 1: It's been a really fantastic conversation. I would love if
Speaker 1: you could just leave us one uh, one bit of
Speaker 1: feeling of optimism because as you talk about, you say,
Speaker 1: the future can be so filled with different possibility and
Speaker 1: positivity and I'm just if you could leave us with
Speaker 1: a sentiment from your perspective on what that, what that is,
Speaker 1: or what feeling we hold onto? Yeah. Absolutely, Look, I
Speaker 1: think it's an extraordinary time to be alive. I think
Speaker 1: the fact that there's this kind of renaissance of questioning
Speaker 1: waiting for us and kind of as low hang fruit.
Speaker 1: It's this generation that has the power and that our
Speaker 1: hands on the button to redesign everything. And how fun
Speaker 1: is that? Right? I mean, we have in our in
Speaker 1: our pockets entirely entire Hollywood film studios that used to
Speaker 1: take up a thousand acres. We have more tools, more technology,
Speaker 1: more everything than we ever had. It's just in our
Speaker 1: hands to decide what we want to point those towards.
Speaker 1: And I don't see that as a bummer. I don't
Speaker 1: see that as heavy. I I see that as worth
Speaker 1: waking up in the morning for we have more authority
Speaker 1: to write the story of what comes next than ever
Speaker 1: and so it's just deciding what are you gonna ask?
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. I know, I know you have to leave,
Speaker 1: but it's been great having you. Thanks for joining us, absolutely,
Speaker 1: Thanks for having Where can people find you? Follow you
Speaker 1: find out more about what you're doing. Yeah, that our
Speaker 1: thanks for it. Thanks for that. I appreciate you the dialogue.
Speaker 1: I love you guys, honesty and directness, so it's refreshing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: The studio and the book can be found on Curiosity
Speaker 1: and Company. It's Curiosity and Dot Company. So Curiosity and Co.
Speaker 1: Is really the name of my portfolio of businesses that
Speaker 1: are experimenting with questioning in all different domains. So it's
Speaker 1: a good place to find us and connect and cost
Speaker 1: some trouble. Nice. Is there a work of media or
Speaker 1: social media? You've been enjoying the work of media. It's
Speaker 1: not going to be anything that is about fiction of
Speaker 1: Hunter Biden by Bright Part News. All right, yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: I mean I think it looks pretty cool, but you
Speaker 1: know you're entitled to your opinion. All right, Seth Goldenburg,
Speaker 1: thanks for joining us. Miles and I. We're going to
Speaker 1: take a quick break and we'll be back to wrap
Speaker 1: things out and we're back and yeah, that was that
Speaker 1: was a very interesting conversation. If people wanna check out more,
Speaker 1: you can find Seth's book wherever fun books are sold.
Speaker 1: But yeah, man, I mean radical Curiosity. I feel like
Speaker 1: I feel like this kid's onto something. It's a double
Speaker 1: edged sword, you know, because on and sometimes you can
Speaker 1: you think of really cool stuff and then other times
Speaker 1: you could be Donald Trump and just make up whole
Speaker 1: new realities. Well that was one thing that like when
Speaker 1: he was talking about the how close we are between
Speaker 1: like all of the information, like the flattening of information,
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, but like I I really think a
Speaker 1: big part of the problem that we have with our
Speaker 1: ability to like think freely and use our access to
Speaker 1: information and the flatness of you know, information and ability
Speaker 1: to just like share thoughts is like that that has
Speaker 1: been used to has been weaponized to like make fascism
Speaker 1: popular again. So it's people have an instinctive sort of
Speaker 1: aversion to the idea of like being creative and questioning
Speaker 1: notions because we're like news is real. Democracy dies in
Speaker 1: the dark. It was me as Kevin citing the New
Speaker 1: York Times. Kevin from the office, shout out Brian bon Gardner. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was Brian bon Gardner. We should have him on,
Speaker 1: but ask him only to do Kevin Malone like Kevin
Speaker 1: Malone today. Legally he can't. I've asked him before. Uh So,
Speaker 1: the front page of Drudge, the only page of Drudge
Speaker 1: Report has like a big headline that's like Donald Trump
Speaker 1: the don calls for an uprising the FBI, which, no,
Speaker 1: it doesn't quite seem that dramatic, but it seems like
Speaker 1: he he might former president Donald Trump might be going
Speaker 1: through something. What's what's the latest there? We look, we've
Speaker 1: been checking in on the mar Lago sweatfest. We liked,
Speaker 1: we like seeing the moments or they're trying to play
Speaker 1: it cool but clearly sweating through their suits. But now
Speaker 1: I mean we're I think we're it's changed your name
Speaker 1: to Antonio Bandettas because you are desperados and you're you
Speaker 1: are very desperate right now. Don't even know if that's
Speaker 1: the same word in Spanish, but I'm calling you I
Speaker 1: mean only, which also might be true because thank you,
Speaker 1: fewer people who have legal degrees are are backing him up.
Speaker 1: See I'm sorry, I'm using desperate like a nineties middle
Speaker 1: school bullywood calling somebody desperate. That's what's happening. But truly,
Speaker 1: I this is now. I think we'll start to see
Speaker 1: then the fucking weird ship go down, because it's clear
Speaker 1: now that the back is getting closer to the wall
Speaker 1: and the explanations and things are getting less elegant or
Speaker 1: even make sense. You know. Ever since that Affidavid came
Speaker 1: out that was redacted, it just became a lot harder
Speaker 1: to just sort of try and spin away, like like
Speaker 1: having documents that merely having them as a crime, like yeah,
Speaker 1: if you have them, it's like it doesn't even matter,
Speaker 1: like you shouldn't have them. That's like your these are
Speaker 1: the statutes that have been violated a lot of people
Speaker 1: like yeah, like you can't really uh, I don't understand
Speaker 1: all the classificationship, but like I did, I did think
Speaker 1: it was instructive that everybody on that side got real
Speaker 1: quiet once yeah, and you had more people just kind
Speaker 1: of be like yeah, I I definitely I RA would
Speaker 1: not take those documents home with me. Uh but yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean it's it's a it's like Roy Blunt, I think,
Speaker 1: was the latest senator to be like, yeah, that would
Speaker 1: not be me. And you know, the legal team has
Speaker 1: had trouble like that. Even a trumpet pointed judge was like, bro,
Speaker 1: you did not submit like anything that resembled a legal filing,
Speaker 1: Like can you go back and do that? Ship Like
Speaker 1: like I can't even do this for y'all. So it
Speaker 1: is getting a little wacky Lindsey Graham. Meanwhile, his words
Speaker 1: have been amplified across the Internet and media because he
Speaker 1: basically came out and would all just chest out all caps,
Speaker 1: basically being like, if Trump is indicted, there will be
Speaker 1: riots in the streets. And you're like, oh, that's not
Speaker 1: a legal strategy. It sounds like a really sloppy thread, okay.
Speaker 1: And then Trump went a step further on pay less
Speaker 1: Twitter to say his thing, This man went full make
Speaker 1: a wish foundation on us with his like blue sky
Speaker 1: treatment of what the future should be because he is
Speaker 1: facing a possible indictment. This is from pay lest Twitter
Speaker 1: at real. Donald Trump said, quote, so now it comes
Speaker 1: out conclusively that the FBI buried the Hunter Biden laptop
Speaker 1: story before the election, knowing that if they didn't quote,
Speaker 1: Trump would have easily won the presidential election. What he's
Speaker 1: talking about, he's referencing zucks appearance on Joe Rogan where
Speaker 1: he talked about how intelligence was like telling Facebook like,
Speaker 1: hey man, watch out for that misinformation, bro that don't
Speaker 1: be just pushing that ship out. And because he considered
Speaker 1: that and was like, yeah, well, we didn't think it
Speaker 1: was gonna be a good look. He's basically saying, like,
Speaker 1: look what they did to me, uh, and also pointing
Speaker 1: to this very convenient concept idea that people believe, which
Speaker 1: is like, if they heard about the laptop, Trump would
Speaker 1: have won in a landslide. That's what actually happened. It
Speaker 1: wasn't actually stolen. Now the new explanation is the Hunter
Speaker 1: Biden story got buried. That's why Trump lost. So I'll
Speaker 1: continue his rant. He his solution is, quote, this is
Speaker 1: massive fraud and election interference at a level never seen
Speaker 1: before in our country. Remedy colon, declare the declare their
Speaker 1: rightfull winner. Or and this would be the minimal solution,
Speaker 1: declare the election irreparbably compromised and have a new election immediately.
Speaker 1: Hell yeah, all right, bro, bro, all right, brou declare
Speaker 1: that this my man said, say I'm the fucking president,
Speaker 1: or we need to have a do over election right now.
Speaker 1: M M. I do recognize my own like feelings when
Speaker 1: I was in my Russian gate bag and being like,
Speaker 1: well they should do a do over because they cheated.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, And that's just not how it works. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: it is much more fun to be on this side
Speaker 1: of the bat shittery. Yeah, well this one is definitely
Speaker 1: like this. This guy is trying to be like, you know,
Speaker 1: I didn't commit crimes, called me the president. Now what
Speaker 1: that's literally like the mo If you distill this down,
Speaker 1: this is such a fucking weird, weird moment. And it
Speaker 1: goes along with more reporting from the Trump WHI for
Speaker 1: Maggie Haberman, who was talking about just how some of
Speaker 1: these documents were like slept around when he was in office.
Speaker 1: This quote box of boxes of documents even came with
Speaker 1: Trump on foreign travel, following him to hotel rooms around
Speaker 1: the world, including countries considered foreign adversaries of the United States. Quote.
Speaker 1: There was no rhyme or reason. It was classified documents
Speaker 1: on top of newspapers, on top of papers people printed
Speaker 1: out of things they wanted him to read. The boxes
Speaker 1: were never organized. Stephanie Grisham said, quote he'd want to
Speaker 1: get work done on long trips, so he just rummaged
Speaker 1: through the boxes. That was our finaling system. Wow. So man,
Speaker 1: I thought I would be sloppy as a politician, but
Speaker 1: this dude is really where's the box stuff? Papers? Okay,
Speaker 1: what's this? Nope, that's a bit was this is okay,
Speaker 1: this is a this is a cable from an intercepted note.
Speaker 1: That's always that's another bill. Give me the other box.
Speaker 1: Immediately did he what did he think he was doing?
Speaker 1: Like what he just like just the proximity, like the
Speaker 1: fetishization of important president like important presidential documents was such
Speaker 1: that he could he just thought a box full of
Speaker 1: random documents would be like he could just reach in
Speaker 1: there and be doing official presidential business. Is that kind
Speaker 1: of I think? Or it's just like his safety blanket,
Speaker 1: like to know, like if she ever goes down, I
Speaker 1: got that thing on me. Which maybe it's like if
Speaker 1: I'm if I got the docks, then I can maybe
Speaker 1: flip them abroad if I need to do whatever. I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's it's really hard to h to see
Speaker 1: into his mind, but what is clear is that white
Speaker 1: supremacy and his privilege has completely destroyed his sense of
Speaker 1: reality and what is or is not how to how
Speaker 1: to act like in a situation like this. They also
Speaker 1: wrote that like people at d O J are like
Speaker 1: the like the attorneys at d O JAY, Like he's
Speaker 1: talking to Merrick Garland like he's just some political foe,
Speaker 1: rather than like the Attorney general, and like he's also
Speaker 1: like they're like, you're using tactics that just do not
Speaker 1: apply in this context. It may have worked when you
Speaker 1: were in office, but surely like now you're you're just
Speaker 1: you're just Donald with the loose papers. Donald with the
Speaker 1: loose papers. I mean, yeah, it's he's been an escape
Speaker 1: artist who uses those tools of white supremacy and privilege
Speaker 1: and you know, America's hidden class system to get out
Speaker 1: of you know, trouble over and over and over and
Speaker 1: over again and lie and you know, use those lies
Speaker 1: to perpetuate his career. So who knows. I mean, he
Speaker 1: he used to. He anytime he somebody threatens to tell
Speaker 1: the truth about him, he threatens the lawyers with like
Speaker 1: lawsuits and stuff that always scare lawyers because they're they're
Speaker 1: a flighty bunch. There's not working so well now, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, this motherfucker kid anyway, So don't
Speaker 1: hold your breath, folks. I mean the riots of prosecuted
Speaker 1: thing like that does seem to be the like that,
Speaker 1: That's what I've heard lots of places, and not just
Speaker 1: from Lindsay Graham of like, well, this is why you
Speaker 1: never you can't like prosecute a former president because then
Speaker 1: you become like not America or something or something above that. Like, hey,
Speaker 1: I'm no Lord of the Rings, I'm no soron fan, right,
Speaker 1: but I'm not worried about what the reaction that people are.
Speaker 1: You throw the ring of power in the uh huh
Speaker 1: huh huh. But yeah, I mean this is like everything,
Speaker 1: like even like those psychologists who study extremism and stuff
Speaker 1: like gangs and things are like, you have to show
Speaker 1: that there are consequences or the thinking goes even further,
Speaker 1: spirals further and further and further. Can't just keep being like, well, America,
Speaker 1: American exceptionalism prevents us from prosecuting a former president. Is like, well,
Speaker 1: the former president is doing crimes openly, so at this
Speaker 1: point and if that's the cheap ship, then I'm running
Speaker 1: for office. Also, y'all fucking scruples, not for that reason.
Speaker 1: But I'm the new King Ralph America. All right, Well
Speaker 1: that's been an episode. Guest has already left us, But
Speaker 1: I have not asked you where people can find you,
Speaker 1: follow you? And what's a tweet that you've been enjoying? You?
Speaker 1: Honor me, yo, Jack Horseman You can find me on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Miles of Gray. Also check out
Speaker 1: Miles and Jack got mad boost these The fucking NBA
Speaker 1: season draws close her and closer. We're feeling optimistic, cynical,
Speaker 1: best where everything at once fantastic time. Also, come check
Speaker 1: me out on four twenty Day Fiance. Also if you
Speaker 1: like reality TV, some tweets that I like. First one
Speaker 1: is from at Blair Saki and it's at Blair say
Speaker 1: she just tweeted every single time with a single tear
Speaker 1: drop cry emoji. And it's like her in the dating
Speaker 1: app and someone just this dude's messaging. Her first message
Speaker 1: from this guy is stand up Blaire's funds. Yes, the funds.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Everyone tells me I should do stand up.
Speaker 1: I winged an open mic night one time and almost
Speaker 1: got attacked by the woke mob. And then, like the
Speaker 1: three dots in typing, progress things right, it's like, oh no, nope,
Speaker 1: you no, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope, I winged one.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty funny. Actually it's just a woke mob, yeah Jesus.
Speaker 1: And then at Young Titty tweeted, okay, I'll buy eight.
Speaker 1: What's a warrant from my arrest. Yeah, going around right now.
Speaker 1: Also shout out Lacey Mosley and I posted a picture
Speaker 1: of her doing a keynote showing some love. All love
Speaker 1: to Lacey always get to see her growing. And also
Speaker 1: shout out to Nile Holden on Twitter who sent me
Speaker 1: that tweet about the John Spartan like cryogenically frozen figure
Speaker 1: from Planet Hollywood ended up in a state in the
Speaker 1: Australian outback like that. Yeah, it's a it's the nude
Speaker 1: Sylvester Salon and Ice from Demolition Man, and it is,
Speaker 1: but like up close it's appears to be melting and
Speaker 1: very life like, but also you know, very real Uncanny
Speaker 1: Valley ship. Yeah, like he's like tied to a handtruck
Speaker 1: like a weird S and M torture device or something.
Speaker 1: It's very odd look anyway. Shout out to y'all for
Speaker 1: knowing my interest in tweeting them appy which is Demolition
Speaker 1: Man a couple EETs. Sarah York tweeted, I love how
Speaker 1: barista is the job conservatives bring up as a lazy
Speaker 1: slacker job when one shift out a moderately busy Starbucks
Speaker 1: would have them crouched between stacks of milk creates sobbing
Speaker 1: in the back room. The Jane Gee tweeted, has it
Speaker 1: occurred to Thomas that he might be the problem? And
Speaker 1: it's this picture of like a section at a bookstore
Speaker 1: and all the books, So it's this guy. Thomas Ericsson
Speaker 1: is the author Surrounded by setbacks. Next book Thomas Errickson
Speaker 1: Surrounded by Narcissists or how to Stop other People's Egos
Speaker 1: from Ruining your Life. Next book, Surrounded by Psychopaths, How
Speaker 1: to protect yourself from being manipulated and exploited in Business
Speaker 1: and Life Thomas Rickson, And then finally by Thomas Errickson
Speaker 1: Surrounded by Idiots The Four Types of Human Behavior or
Speaker 1: how to Understand those who cannot be understood. So yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe Thomas needs to look within. And then finally, no
Speaker 1: garlfmen cold tweeted, I wish room to aperture water was
Speaker 1: as cold as room temperature coffee. You can find me
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Jack Underscore O'Brien. You can find us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at daily Zeitgeist. Were at d daily Zeitgeist
Speaker 1: on Instagram. We have a Facebook fan page on a
Speaker 1: website daily zeitgeist dot com, where we post our episodes
Speaker 1: and our foot notes, we link offs the information that
Speaker 1: we talked about in today's episode, as well as a
Speaker 1: song that we think you might enjoy. Miles Li song
Speaker 1: do we think people might enjoy? I was listening to
Speaker 1: a sum O'Hare who is a like Afro Mexican artist
Speaker 1: from Get At Old Mexico but then grew up in
Speaker 1: Long Beach. I didn't he passed away tragically earlier this summer.
Speaker 1: I had no idea, and I was listening to his
Speaker 1: album Tropical Gold. But this is a track from that album,
Speaker 1: Poor Elswell, which is I mean his his He's just
Speaker 1: very dancy, sort of like sample based like music using
Speaker 1: like sampled like Afro indigenous swing singing or percussion and
Speaker 1: things like that. It's just got really good like texture
Speaker 1: and heart to it. I mean, like a really just
Speaker 1: inelegant way to compare his music is like if Moby
Speaker 1: had some swag to him a little bit and it
Speaker 1: was like sampling other ship. I only say that because
Speaker 1: you're kind of like mixing electronic with like really good
Speaker 1: samples and things like that. But this is Sumo hair
Speaker 1: with poor aswellow. I know what you're talking about. Mobi
Speaker 1: as the most swag of anyone find a new angle,
Speaker 1: Find a new angle. The Daily Zych is the production
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows. That's gonna do it
Speaker 1: for us this morning, back this afternoon to tell you
Speaker 1: what's trending. Talk then by