Speaker 1: Hello the Internet, and welcome to Season to thirty three,
Speaker 1: Episode five of The Day Guys Stay production of by
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. This Well. This is a podcast where we
Speaker 1: take a deep dive into America's share consciousness. And it
Speaker 1: is Friday April, which means that Earth Day. How's how
Speaker 1: is Earth Day going? Are we winning the Earth? Don't?
Speaker 1: You might not want to check the score line, to
Speaker 1: check the bot score on Earth, although it does feel
Speaker 1: like we're moving the goalpost back right now, like climate science,
Speaker 1: just like I think we can. I think we can
Speaker 1: manage two degrees change, like if we really get it
Speaker 1: together now. But we gotta get it together now. Anybody
Speaker 1: hearing that, No, but yes, take this moment to you know,
Speaker 1: get in touch with the Earth and maybe consider the
Speaker 1: massive work that is in front of us to maintain
Speaker 1: life on this planet. I mean, I do my part.
Speaker 1: I don't just throw my trash everywhere on Earth Day
Speaker 1: in particular, and once in a while I will use
Speaker 1: the paper straws that they give me in my dream. Hey,
Speaker 1: invest there, you know there's good there's good, real compostable
Speaker 1: bio biody radable stuff out there that's got the good
Speaker 1: mouth feel, you know, you know, would would bamboo shots
Speaker 1: I had. I used a bamboo straw the other day.
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, I'm this isn't this isn't bad
Speaker 1: at Speaking of straws, my name is Jack O'Brien, a
Speaker 1: K straw Sucking Fangs Forever Courty courtesy of Ruthie Fudge.
Speaker 1: Shout out to Ruthie and Yeah, the a lot of
Speaker 1: people out there who thought that vampire fangs were hollow
Speaker 1: and sucks blood through them. So we were not alone
Speaker 1: in that misconception, and in fact, maybe a lot of
Speaker 1: the culture that led us that way was created by
Speaker 1: people who believed that as well. Anyways, I'm thrilled to
Speaker 1: be joined as always by my co host Mr Miles
Speaker 1: Miles Gray call me Jack co host, and Sophie is too.
Speaker 1: I'm Miles of Gray, Miles of Gray. He says, I
Speaker 1: know what I want. I want in now, some cold
Speaker 1: brew because I'm Miles of Gray. Christie, I'm a Ducci
Speaker 1: mane at Wapple House. For that. Mr Vane inspired a
Speaker 1: K what a track? A classic? Yeah? That was great, Yeah,
Speaker 1: a great Yeahmagucci main classic. Well, Miles, We're thrilled to
Speaker 1: be joined by a reporter and the author of the
Speaker 1: new book Nazi Billionaires, The Dark History of Germany's Wealthiest
Speaker 1: Dynasty's it is David Dion, Good morning, good afternoon. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: thank you? Oh man? Doing well? Yeah? How is new York?
Speaker 1: You're in New York? Yeah? Yeah, what's what's good in
Speaker 1: New York? Things are good. It's still chilly out, you know.
Speaker 1: I think there's two weeks of spring are about to hit, right,
Speaker 1: So what I'm hoping for before summer starts? What are
Speaker 1: you basing that on? Any meteor a meteorological evidence or
Speaker 1: just the ground? Hug? Are we at that point in
Speaker 1: the ground? Hug? Because purely this is pure ground feb Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: How are you? Are you? Where are you in your
Speaker 1: like kind of book tour, book publicity? My understanding is
Speaker 1: those are exhausting. I am. I just started. I gave
Speaker 1: my first book last night. The book came out on Tuesday,
Speaker 1: so it's been it's been four days of man. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I've been listening in reading some of your other
Speaker 1: interviews and stuff, and have you have you get to
Speaker 1: get any media opportunities from German media yet yet? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I'm keeping my favorite. I mean, the German translation is
Speaker 1: going to get published on May five, and the German
Speaker 1: book tour starts mid May or May twenties to be exact.
Speaker 1: So you know Germans, I guess that's also But the
Speaker 1: overall point of my book, Germans are a little bit
Speaker 1: slow some or at least some Germans are a little
Speaker 1: bit slow in the pick up, Yeah, a little bit.
Speaker 1: Pretty so much stuff happening here? Ye? Absolutely? All right, Well,
Speaker 1: we are going to get to know you a little
Speaker 1: bit better in a moment. First, we're gonna tell our
Speaker 1: listeners a couple of things we're talking about. We are
Speaker 1: gonna talk about your book. Some of the revelations in
Speaker 1: the book are like the type of things I say
Speaker 1: this about stories every once in a while, but like
Speaker 1: when I read your book, I'm like, wait, why is
Speaker 1: this not the only thing we're talking about all the time? Ever,
Speaker 1: it's just fucking wild. So well, we'll get details, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sure, So we'll talk about that. We'll talk about Coachella.
Speaker 1: We're gonna just how lit it is, like the dope
Speaker 1: Instagram pictures we've all seen, and everybody that I fall
Speaker 1: on Instagram has aged out think, which I think it's healthy,
Speaker 1: but like there's nobody's going on Instagram or nobody's going
Speaker 1: to coach he same here. Yeah, at least you're getting
Speaker 1: out like billionaires going and the Property Brothers guy is
Speaker 1: what is its selling Sunset? It's like, like we said,
Speaker 1: it's it's it's all these festivals end up shifting. But yeah,
Speaker 1: so we'll talk about all that plenty Moore. But first, David,
Speaker 1: we do like to ask our guests what is something
Speaker 1: from your search history? So I had my book party
Speaker 1: on Tuesday at Hanoia Gallery in New York, and I
Speaker 1: googled the The centerpiece of the permanent collection of that
Speaker 1: museum is the painting by Gustav Klimt of Adele bloch
Speaker 1: Bauer One. It was immortalized in his movie called The
Speaker 1: Woman in Gold, which Helen Marron plays Maria Altman the Arrows,
Speaker 1: who was trying to get the painting. It iss stolen
Speaker 1: from a family Your nazis back. She lives in Los
Speaker 1: Angeles and the lawyer is played by I always forget
Speaker 1: his name, but he is married to Blake Lively Reynolds. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Ryan Reynolds exactly. Lawyer Ryan Reynolds, Blake liveliest husband whatever
Speaker 1: his name is in his probably like one of the
Speaker 1: last roles where he was like, I don't know, Like
Speaker 1: I don't always have to be like the quippy, funny
Speaker 1: like Deadpool guy. Sometimes I can be a just a
Speaker 1: lawyer who's trying to write a historic rong exactly. And
Speaker 1: I wanted to know more about that history. I mean,
Speaker 1: I saw the movie, but I wanted to know more
Speaker 1: about the history. So that's the before I had the party.
Speaker 1: So that's the last my my Google searches nice and
Speaker 1: what what do you find out? So they I'm assuming,
Speaker 1: based on the fact that it was a Hollywood movie
Speaker 1: and that you had your book launch at a museum
Speaker 1: that features the painting, that the historic injustice was eventually right.
Speaker 1: It was indeed by the U. S. Supreme Court, who
Speaker 1: ruled that they that the Austrian government had to return
Speaker 1: the stolen painting or the deloted collection of paintings back
Speaker 1: to Maria Altman in Los Angeles. Ronald Lawler, the famous
Speaker 1: a billionaire in New York, ends up buying the painting
Speaker 1: for a hundred twenty million from Maria Altman and the
Speaker 1: other painting. Gustav Clint only ever through two paintings of
Speaker 1: Adele Bloch Bauer was his muse and patron and the
Speaker 1: other one was brought by Oprah Winfrey. I found out,
Speaker 1: so that and was later sold on to a Chinese billionaire.
Speaker 1: So it's yet again it's it's billionaires galore, and we're
Speaker 1: just living a world where you know, we're all serving civillionaires.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, yeah, it's just a good asset to
Speaker 1: park my money in. Yeah, and just they have it
Speaker 1: like a airport, like hangar somewhere or well do it
Speaker 1: like that's that's always interesting. Won a billionaire buys a
Speaker 1: great work of art, Like, is there anything to indicate
Speaker 1: that we've even like we're able to even see the
Speaker 1: best works of art, or a billionaire doesn't just like
Speaker 1: own like some of the best work. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: there's so many, so many artworks are indeed in these
Speaker 1: texts free hangars all across the world, you know, in Switzerland,
Speaker 1: in Singapore, So you're right, you know, we've only seen
Speaker 1: a sliver of what's out there in museums. I mean,
Speaker 1: Ronald Lauder donated it to his own museum, to Noia Gallery,
Speaker 1: New York, where it's the centerpiece of depermanent collection alongside
Speaker 1: other magnificent works. Yeah, my favorite art is always at
Speaker 1: the Sackler Museum because I can just feel good about
Speaker 1: their you know, their background. I haven't done a ton
Speaker 1: of research, but I feel like they're on the up
Speaker 1: and up and they're in all the cool gallery. I
Speaker 1: wonder what where they got their money? Uhart, that's all
Speaker 1: that matters increasingly less increasingly, right, yeah, exactly. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: once people begin having reckonings with like what's that name? Represented?
Speaker 1: No, no no, no, nope, nope no, bring that down Empire
Speaker 1: fan of course the book. Yeah, what is something you
Speaker 1: think is overrated? I think Manchester United is the most
Speaker 1: overrated soccer team. They like that of to day it
Speaker 1: was announced that they that Manchester United, which is many
Speaker 1: fans stayed side as well. But except for in the
Speaker 1: city of Manchester, where everybody support native man Mancunians support
Speaker 1: Manchester City effect, it's very little, you know, very little
Speaker 1: known Manchester United. And I was yesterday they poached the
Speaker 1: coach of my of my soccer team, Ajax Amsterdam, and
Speaker 1: I think, you know Manchester United as even under Ferguson,
Speaker 1: they've never under Sir Sir Alec Ferguson, they've never are
Speaker 1: played soccer in an attractive way there's never been like
Speaker 1: a team Manchester United team which played like attractive soccer ever,
Speaker 1: so I think they're like the most overrated thing. And
Speaker 1: I'm just out there, not personal at all yet feeling
Speaker 1: that the coaching of Eric has nothing to do really unrelated.
Speaker 1: I've been saying it's for for for years. But now
Speaker 1: I have a news angle that that that that you
Speaker 1: know affects me personally as an eye ex friend, that
Speaker 1: I can finally say this record. Yeah, yeah, no, Jack,
Speaker 1: I know you've you're obviously following everything that's been happening
Speaker 1: since I'm mad I'm over here. That's interesting, like just
Speaker 1: you know, only having context of following it through Miles.
Speaker 1: I didn't know that Manchester United was like not even
Speaker 1: Manchester's team. That's yeah, that's always sucks. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: like one of the best marketed English clubs out there,
Speaker 1: and it's you know, one of the biggest, probably the
Speaker 1: biggest name in English soccer still. I mean, although Liverpool
Speaker 1: is you know, basically leveling up on the number of
Speaker 1: championships Livapool shoutout Virgil van Dyke over there, straw sucking
Speaker 1: fans forever, but you know, it was the smashing by
Speaker 1: Liverpool that sort of catalyzed all of this, and they're like,
Speaker 1: all right, we gotta we gotta start really figuring this
Speaker 1: out because they're they're completely out of sorts and they're
Speaker 1: doing they did this thing where we see a lot
Speaker 1: of even like in the NBA, happens where clubs or
Speaker 1: teams are just going for really big name signings without
Speaker 1: much consideration for the long like the longevity of the
Speaker 1: franchise or how it affects the youth development, and you
Speaker 1: keep paying exorbitant fees. They've they've spent something like one
Speaker 1: billion dollars since and now we're they're looking at a
Speaker 1: rebuild of at least having to replace like three fourths
Speaker 1: of their entire squad. Yeah, I was trying to immediately
Speaker 1: trying to think of the NBA corollaria, and I guess
Speaker 1: despite the fact that I'm rooting for them and and
Speaker 1: more devastated when they lose them when the six Ors
Speaker 1: my team loses in this first round, I feel like
Speaker 1: the Nets might be the closest thing in that they're
Speaker 1: like not New York's team, but they have like all
Speaker 1: this talent and like a lot of people are interested
Speaker 1: in them around the country. Yeah, but but it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem to be working out thus far. Yeah, and like
Speaker 1: I think to what they were just saying, they're there,
Speaker 1: they win, you know, like that's the thing they would win.
Speaker 1: It wasn't necessarily like, oh, you know the way they
Speaker 1: play attractive, free flowing football with a lot of like
Speaker 1: triangles or things like that. They usually just were able
Speaker 1: to throrolex Ferguson was just able to put together a
Speaker 1: bunch of winners and they just won games. M But
Speaker 1: that one season when they had Rooney, Ronaldo and Tevez,
Speaker 1: I think was pretty obscene to look at front. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I can't agree more something. Uh, what's something you think
Speaker 1: is underrated? I mean, the state of meg it's terribly underrated.
Speaker 1: All right, Okay, go on, I've been there. I've been
Speaker 1: finally after many decades. My favorite writer of all time. Well,
Speaker 1: I also think it's terribly underrated. Stephen king Is is
Speaker 1: from Maine, and I recently got to do a little
Speaker 1: literary pilgrimage up to Maine, drove up to Portland and
Speaker 1: Bangor and all these beautiful seaside towns and went to
Speaker 1: a wilderness. I just I loved it. Yeah, what is
Speaker 1: it what what about your perception prior to it, and
Speaker 1: then experiencing what sort of what was the sort of
Speaker 1: shift that you had, and sort of saying, you know what,
Speaker 1: this place is actually a bit of all right. I
Speaker 1: just found it so beautiful, just pure, like an incredible wilderness.
Speaker 1: The nature is just stunning. The people are incredibly friendly.
Speaker 1: The lobster rolls stays so good. It's just I found
Speaker 1: it to be idyllic and tranquil. I loved it. And
Speaker 1: nobody ever talks about Maine except for the one there
Speaker 1: one Center and John Hodgeman. Yeah, those John Hodgeman, Susan Collins,
Speaker 1: Stephen King, and I guess you get there. You know,
Speaker 1: their governors always talked about here and there. But yeah,
Speaker 1: all the Page I think is his name. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I used to go when I played at hockey pretty competitively.
Speaker 1: I had gone to Bangor in Portland before to play hockey,
Speaker 1: but that was many years ago, and I remember as
Speaker 1: a kid, just like for the first time ever seeing
Speaker 1: New England, I was like, wow, this is so different
Speaker 1: than anything I know growing up in Los Angeles. But
Speaker 1: I haven't been since in my adulthood. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: feel like maybe it's time to check it out again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's first of all huge, which I guess a
Speaker 1: lot of America is huge, but it's a you just
Speaker 1: I I drove there from Boston one time back when
Speaker 1: I lived in Boston, and you know, you hit Maine
Speaker 1: like two hours in and then it's like five more
Speaker 1: hours to get like halfway up the state of Maine.
Speaker 1: But it's truly beautiful. There's amount there Mount Todden that's
Speaker 1: like a great a lot of fun to climb and
Speaker 1: just beautiful and like whitewater rapids all over the place.
Speaker 1: What I'm interested in, you are Stephen King literary appreciation.
Speaker 1: What what is the like I I've I've heard this
Speaker 1: argument before that like Stephen King centuries from now will
Speaker 1: still be seen as like one of the great American writers.
Speaker 1: Like what is a book that you think is like
Speaker 1: underrated in terms of its place in the literary canon
Speaker 1: by Stephen King? The Stand, Yeah, which is my favorite
Speaker 1: book of all time, our favorite fiction book of all time,
Speaker 1: HM does not get the kudos I think it deserves.
Speaker 1: I mean, the CBS did a terrible remake of it
Speaker 1: last year. Oh they did one last year. I remember,
Speaker 1: I remember the TV remake. That was like an event
Speaker 1: when I was a kid. Like that's one of the
Speaker 1: only like TV mini series from my childhood that like
Speaker 1: I remember everybody I was talking about and really captured
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist. I forced my entire my my twelve birthday
Speaker 1: slumber party. I forced the entire, my entire group of
Speaker 1: friends to binge eight hours of the miniseries. We're talking here,
Speaker 1: a biblical allegory. Eight hours just through it with twelve
Speaker 1: year olds. That's amazing. You don't close your eyes. People,
Speaker 1: Remember five am, some of the girls got up and
Speaker 1: we were just pissed and I left, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: and this is mind you. This was an Amsterdam as well,
Speaker 1: where I grew up, So this was a bunch of
Speaker 1: twelve year olds who were not native English speakers. I
Speaker 1: had to go sit through subtitles. Yeah we're I just
Speaker 1: picture that. You're the one person just sit sat in
Speaker 1: front of like the screen, just so engrossed while everyone
Speaker 1: else is like yeah, yeah, you know, we weren't even stumped,
Speaker 1: you know, right, yeah, right yeah. It's also funny, like
Speaker 1: a sleepover with girls they're at twelve is like so
Speaker 1: unheard of in America. It's funny that that you just
Speaker 1: casually mentioned like that, Oh right, are puritanical and little
Speaker 1: sleeping near each other? Don't don't underestimate the Dutch puritanical roots.
Speaker 1: You sure sure r? You just lived in a cool household. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess my friends, we're pretty relaxing. Things in Amsterdam
Speaker 1: are more chilled than they are in the Dutch countryside,
Speaker 1: where pure puritanism still rangs. Right right, yeah, well, you
Speaker 1: know the only play sud argue with you as you
Speaker 1: saying the Stand was a fictional book because after Obama
Speaker 1: came to power, I think we all knew that that
Speaker 1: Stephen King was seeing the future? Am I right? We wasn't?
Speaker 1: There are a lot of like he's like the bad
Speaker 1: guy from the Stand ship when Obama was first coming
Speaker 1: to power. Really maybe that was just me and my pals. Uh.
Speaker 1: Sounds like there's a lot of like anti christ stuff,
Speaker 1: And I think the bad guy in the Stand was
Speaker 1: a yeah, yeah, well trash can fire guy. What's his name?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I got it. I'm thinking of the pyromaniac character.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the trash gun man. Right right, it's like
Speaker 1: that's Obama but yeah, oh man, it's it's wild when
Speaker 1: people are like, just we if we see a constantly,
Speaker 1: especially in the American culture, like this thing I saw
Speaker 1: on TV, I probably connect to this real life event
Speaker 1: that I'm experiencing now, and I will now map this
Speaker 1: onto it. Yeah. And then they just made the anti
Speaker 1: Christ mini series on the History Channel, right or what
Speaker 1: was it History Channel or National Geographic where they just
Speaker 1: cast like a Barack Obama look like as the Antichrist.
Speaker 1: But oh yeah, I miss that. I missed that. Oh no,
Speaker 1: the US telling on itself again? You yeah, Oh the Bible.
Speaker 1: I think the Bible is the one I was thinking.
Speaker 1: Have you guys heard of this one? The Bible? Have
Speaker 1: you heard they really did? What? That's a that's a
Speaker 1: that's a strong channel. Wasn't on the History Channel? That's yeah.
Speaker 1: I gotta gotta reach out to those Middle American viewers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: get them on board. Just keep that narrative alive. Brown
Speaker 1: skin equals danger, folks, this is America. Is there a
Speaker 1: shorter Stephen King book for like maybe people who are like,
Speaker 1: all right, fun, you've worn me down. Stephen King is
Speaker 1: a great writer. What should I read first? Do you
Speaker 1: do you have one beyond stand? Yeah? Definitely, Um, Salem's Lot,
Speaker 1: which is one of his first books. Hm, he's only
Speaker 1: only runs two d three hundred pages shorter than that. Sorry, man,
Speaker 1: you're gonna bring it. That's gonna be. That's talking more
Speaker 1: like twelve thirteen pages you go through it. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: his books are extremely readable, like they kind of read themselves.
Speaker 1: They're great, as is a book that we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about right after this break. We'll be right back
Speaker 1: and we're back and yeah, So, like we said up top,
Speaker 1: you know the the w I I used to work
Speaker 1: for a website called Cracked. We did an article early
Speaker 1: on like those, one of our more popular articles those
Speaker 1: like these five major corporations had major had major roles
Speaker 1: in Nazi Germany, like Hugo Boss being like the outfitter
Speaker 1: of a lot of Nazi uniforms and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: And at the time I was like that that that
Speaker 1: seems like, how is this not the only thing people
Speaker 1: are talking about when they mentioned these companies. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you've done an actual like journalistic deep dive into some
Speaker 1: of the wealthiest dynasties in Germany, like talking twenty thirty
Speaker 1: billion dollars being controlled by these families and just looking
Speaker 1: back at the some of the details of the history
Speaker 1: that are whitewashed out of the stories that they tell,
Speaker 1: and it's it's pretty mind blowing. You just talked about
Speaker 1: your journey to like kind of get to this information. Definitely.
Speaker 1: I mean I started reporting on this topic back when
Speaker 1: I was at Bloomberg News in New York, and I
Speaker 1: joined a investigative team at Bloomberg back in late that
Speaker 1: focused on family owned companies and and family offices and
Speaker 1: hidden wealth and billionaire fortunes. And I was soon asked
Speaker 1: I was hired as one of the reporters covering the
Speaker 1: America's but or covering North America. But because I'm a
Speaker 1: native dutch Man, I was soon asked if I could
Speaker 1: add the the German speaking countries to my beat. And
Speaker 1: that's how I began reporting on this mix of history
Speaker 1: and big business and finance in Germany, and how I
Speaker 1: stumbled upon all these very seek creative families that control,
Speaker 1: you know, massive family offices that invest all over the world,
Speaker 1: but that also control global brands like BMW and Porsche
Speaker 1: and Audi and Bentley and Lamborghini and many and Rolls
Speaker 1: Royce and stay out in Skota and you know, Volkswagen
Speaker 1: and it's not only limited to the car manufacturing, you
Speaker 1: know consumer goods as well. In the US. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have one family that in German family that controls
Speaker 1: Panera bread and Crispy Cream doughnuts and Pets Coffee and
Speaker 1: Current Green Mountain, and they all have, you know, these
Speaker 1: really insanely gripping stories and brutal stories histories of their
Speaker 1: patriarchs being responsible for taking partaking and the atrocities that
Speaker 1: happened under Adolf Hitler in in not only Nazi Germany
Speaker 1: but also in occupied Europe. Right. And I feel like,
Speaker 1: even to like Jack's point, like up top, right, I
Speaker 1: think when a lot of even people who feel historically savvy,
Speaker 1: like at least in the US, when you say, when
Speaker 1: you think of companies that were quote working with the Nazis,
Speaker 1: the first things reflectively are like Hugo Box made s
Speaker 1: S uniforms, or like BMW with the Luftwaffe or with
Speaker 1: Luftwaffe or whatever. We have these like very sort of
Speaker 1: like in a vacuum almost where the story is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: well they made stuff for them, and then then the
Speaker 1: Third Reich was over, and then they just started making
Speaker 1: their their stuff again. And I think what what's great
Speaker 1: is that, like your book is saying like that's not
Speaker 1: the extent of how any of this worked. And I
Speaker 1: think we have a very sort of superficial understanding of
Speaker 1: how these like these families or companies amassed their wealth
Speaker 1: and things like that. But what why do you think
Speaker 1: that we have maybe this one version where it's cleanly
Speaker 1: just sort of like they just made stuff and we're
Speaker 1: not getting into the coarse labor and like seized land
Speaker 1: and things like that. It's because those companies are no
Speaker 1: longer controlled by families that are relevant. So these families
Speaker 1: that do everything to leave that part of their history
Speaker 1: out on the websites of BMW, on charitable foundations or
Speaker 1: the website of Porsche, you would never know the controlling families.
Speaker 1: You could never connect. And it's a little bit like
Speaker 1: the Secular story too, where you saw the secular name everywhere, right,
Speaker 1: but but nobody could connect the secular family too. The
Speaker 1: company that controlled which was a purge of pharma. You know,
Speaker 1: with with like BMW being controlled by the quants, you know,
Speaker 1: there's no there's no you know, there's no name to it,
Speaker 1: and you go, boss, I mean, if I got a
Speaker 1: dollar for every time somebody asked me where you go,
Speaker 1: bust be in my book, I would be like a
Speaker 1: multimillion I would be building. So you go, Boss, I
Speaker 1: mean is you know the quants were now control BMW
Speaker 1: were massive textile manufacturers, also made all these uniforms forms
Speaker 1: for the SS, for the wear muft in and and
Speaker 1: and it's always for some reason that they come back
Speaker 1: to Hugo Boast, you know, which is no, there is
Speaker 1: no Hugo book. There's no Boss family anymore that controls
Speaker 1: Ugo Boast already for many many decades, but for some
Speaker 1: reason dead name is stuck into like global consciousness of
Speaker 1: being like the main company to work together for a
Speaker 1: Nazi war machine, you know. And it's Yeah, the amazing
Speaker 1: thing about your book is it's not just like excavating
Speaker 1: skeletons in the closets of these successful business dynasties and
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, like there's a picture of them and
Speaker 1: they were like in the SS. But you know, the companies,
Speaker 1: the dynasties are like built on their ability to exploit
Speaker 1: like you know, slave labor or forced labor, and like
Speaker 1: some of the the greatest injustices of the past hundred
Speaker 1: years and then yeah, it's like the foundations of their
Speaker 1: companies of some of like these most recognizable brands in
Speaker 1: the world today and it's just amazing. Like the story
Speaker 1: about Flick I think in particular is that the one
Speaker 1: who or no, I think I think it was the
Speaker 1: Porsche story where they basically the way that they got
Speaker 1: control of the company, or as much control as they did,
Speaker 1: is that you write in like the Porsche patriarch basically
Speaker 1: like bought out his Jewish partner after like you know,
Speaker 1: it was it was basically not okay for that partner
Speaker 1: to own as much of the company, and they got
Speaker 1: it for like very bargain basement like rates and stuff,
Speaker 1: and they never addressed it. And then didn't they like
Speaker 1: basically say that the partner was trying to like extort them. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you have so out of Rosenberger, which was one
Speaker 1: of the three co founders of of Porsche, gets bought
Speaker 1: out way under the market value of his shares because
Speaker 1: he's because he's Jewish in Germany a few weeks before
Speaker 1: the Nuremberg race laws are enacted, so he is brought
Speaker 1: out of the company way way below for what his
Speaker 1: shares were worth. Subsequently, adding insult to injury. Out of
Speaker 1: Rosenberger is erased from com from from Porsche's corporate history,
Speaker 1: founding history, making it even worse. Very Porsche, the son
Speaker 1: of the of the co founder Portship and the man
Speaker 1: who designed the first Porsche sports car in his first autobiography,
Speaker 1: which was exclusively published in the US, because ports Ship
Speaker 1: for America was the most important market for Porship is
Speaker 1: still today to an extent, spews like the most virulent
Speaker 1: anti Semitic virtual about out of Rosenberger, who at that
Speaker 1: point has died in in in l A. He managed
Speaker 1: to flee Nazi Germany settles in America. And it's just,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's beyond belief. And then the irny today
Speaker 1: is that you have, you know, a global foundation, the
Speaker 1: Fairy Porsche Foundation, which is sponsoring you know, a professorship
Speaker 1: in corporate history, and the Porsche family has never addressed
Speaker 1: any part of you know, the the third rag activities
Speaker 1: of their of of of fir and or Fairy Porstiona.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it's perverse, right, do you mind
Speaker 1: kind of like explaining for people because I think, like
Speaker 1: I was saying, we just have a very element just
Speaker 1: elementary understanding of how how a company or a or
Speaker 1: a dynasty is enriched by their proximity to the leadership
Speaker 1: of the Third Reich and benefiting from the policies of
Speaker 1: the Third After I mean, after Hitler sees his power
Speaker 1: in Germany in January three, he initiates this massive rearmament push.
Speaker 1: So billions, the billions and billions flow into into the
Speaker 1: factories and companies of German industrialists and German German businessmen
Speaker 1: who start producing for Germany, for for the German for
Speaker 1: the Nazi war machine, you know, and the run up
Speaker 1: to the war already, right, So that's one. So mass
Speaker 1: arms production, mass weapons production was was one of the
Speaker 1: ways to benefit from it. Secondly, you had, you know,
Speaker 1: And that's the example that I just gave up out
Speaker 1: of Rosenberger, the co Earth for selling by Jews in
Speaker 1: Germany of their assets either forcibly because I put under pressure,
Speaker 1: or because they want to flee Germany and want to
Speaker 1: get rid of the possessions as soon as possible. In
Speaker 1: order to escape the regime, they have to sell whatever
Speaker 1: they own at fire sale prices. Of course, once the
Speaker 1: war starts and and Germany invades the rest of Europe,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not only Jews in Germany and Austria
Speaker 1: whose possessions get looted. It is also just you know,
Speaker 1: living in occupied territories whose possessions get so I mean,
Speaker 1: you see it now also with what Russia's doing in Ukraine.
Speaker 1: You know, you see like Russian soldiers looting you know,
Speaker 1: the possessions of Ukrainians. Thirdly, of course, because most german
Speaker 1: Men were at the front fighting, you have this massive
Speaker 1: system of force and slave labor that is enacted by
Speaker 1: the Nazi regime where you have millions and millions of
Speaker 1: Europeans that are captured, men, women, even teenagers that are
Speaker 1: deported to Germany and are forced to work in factories
Speaker 1: and minds, either forced labor where you get paid bittons
Speaker 1: or a slave labor where you got paid nothing. And
Speaker 1: the five families are write about in the book, you know,
Speaker 1: in various ways profited from it greatly, and many of
Speaker 1: them were already exceptionally wealthy before Hitler Empty power. Only
Speaker 1: the Porsche be a family that today controls the folks
Speaker 1: Argen Group, Porsche, Bentley, Lamborghini, Audi. Really you can really
Speaker 1: say that they laid the bed foundation for their fortune
Speaker 1: during the Third Reich with for and Unportunate designing the
Speaker 1: folks of out and convincing Hitler to put it into production,
Speaker 1: and of course the the founding of the of the
Speaker 1: Porsche car design firm, which after the war becomes the
Speaker 1: Porsche Sports Car Company, Right Jesus? And like, I mean,
Speaker 1: so it seems obvious why you write this book, but
Speaker 1: like I just want to kind of underline because I
Speaker 1: do think people in some respects have just accepted the
Speaker 1: cruelty of like capitalism and like, yeah, well that was
Speaker 1: a long time ago and they got away with it
Speaker 1: and that's just how capitalism works. But yeah, I guess
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, like how, what what has the reception been? Like,
Speaker 1: I guess you're kind of at the early stages of it,
Speaker 1: But you know, what, what are you hoping people will
Speaker 1: will take from this book? I mean, the driving argument
Speaker 1: of the book is is historical transparency. I mean, the
Speaker 1: reason why I wrote ended up writing the book is
Speaker 1: because you have BMW and Porsche maintaining these massive global
Speaker 1: foundations that also do charity work in the US and
Speaker 1: in the names of their you know, patriarchs or founders
Speaker 1: or exalted saviors we're celebrating their business successes but not
Speaker 1: being transparent about the war crimes they committed or the
Speaker 1: Nazi affiliations that they had. And I think, you know,
Speaker 1: one learns from history by being transparent about the good
Speaker 1: and the bad. You know, if you just show that
Speaker 1: somebody said BMW from from from bankruptcy, but you don't
Speaker 1: say that day, that day build and dismantle the subconcentration
Speaker 1: camp in Nazi occupied Poland, or that they had you
Speaker 1: prisoners of war enforced labors used at the private state,
Speaker 1: or that he acquired companies stolen from Jews and France,
Speaker 1: or overseeing battery factories in Berlin where where thousands of
Speaker 1: forces slave laborers were used, including female slave laborers from
Speaker 1: from from from concentration camps. Then what you know what
Speaker 1: is you know, you're you're you're you're just whitewashing history.
Speaker 1: You're leaving out history. And especially at the time today
Speaker 1: where disinformation is so omnipresent, you know, you you especially
Speaker 1: these massive global corporations and these billionaire families. You know,
Speaker 1: with great power comes great responsibility. You have to be
Speaker 1: at the bare minimum. I mean I'm asking for the
Speaker 1: bare minimum right be transparent about in the name of
Speaker 1: the person you're you're conducting philanthropy and or you're giving
Speaker 1: out media prizes or you're giving out you know, you
Speaker 1: have your corporate headquarters named after them. Yeah, the corporate
Speaker 1: headquarters and the foundations are often named after like the Nazi,
Speaker 1: the Nazi patriarch. Like they're not even trying to fucking
Speaker 1: hide it, and they're not trying to atone in any
Speaker 1: way there, you know, but they're not showing it either.
Speaker 1: That's the problem. That's the problem, you know. And if
Speaker 1: you don't want to do that, you should rename it.
Speaker 1: If you don't want to be transparent about your history that,
Speaker 1: don't call it after because this is no way. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have to BMW Herbert quant Foundation, whose motto is
Speaker 1: inspire responsible leadership in the name of a man who
Speaker 1: committed war crimes. And there's and there's the only thing
Speaker 1: that says on the website is you save BMW from
Speaker 1: bankruptcy in and I think that's you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think that's right. No, no talk of Nuremberg, huh exactly.
Speaker 1: But I didn't make it. He didn't make it to Nuremberg.
Speaker 1: So mm hmm. This is the interesting thing is like
Speaker 1: it just reminds me so much of the reckoning that
Speaker 1: the US can never have with you know, like like
Speaker 1: you've even pointed out the automotive industry is so relevant
Speaker 1: to German culture and to even begin to examine that
Speaker 1: and say, is this thing that is set foundational to
Speaker 1: our culture kind of soaked in blood? Is that is
Speaker 1: that something that we can reckon with that there is
Speaker 1: a dark side to this, very similarly to the U
Speaker 1: s where, like a lot of people, when you start
Speaker 1: bringing up the legacy of slavery, the response is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I know it's bad, okay, but I don't really want
Speaker 1: to think about it anymore. And that was a long
Speaker 1: time ago, and like let's just keep going without ever
Speaker 1: understanding like the banks that most people use were handling
Speaker 1: money from the slave trade, or the like people who
Speaker 1: have descended from slave owners who are in prominent positions,
Speaker 1: or dynastic families that are in the same way. Is
Speaker 1: that do you see that sort of reluctant sort of
Speaker 1: being parallel in this sort of like we don't want
Speaker 1: to really look at our the benefits that that like,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe we are experiencing in our national economy
Speaker 1: that's rooted in something much arc totally. But I do
Speaker 1: think that you know, the US is now going through
Speaker 1: time and you particularly sort it in where there is
Speaker 1: this very painful discussion going on, which Germany already had
Speaker 1: a long time ago. It's just a Germany's most powerful
Speaker 1: and wealthies do not want to you know, are seeming
Speaker 1: to be completely cut off from reality. Right in the US.
Speaker 1: You know, this reckoning, as I see, it is only
Speaker 1: just beginning, and it's going to be so much more
Speaker 1: of a confrontation with that history over the over the
Speaker 1: next couple of decades, as morephings come to the four
Speaker 1: as this, you know, as this topic remains at the
Speaker 1: forefront of a national discussion, and as the fights over
Speaker 1: statues in the South, or of Confederate generals, of racist presidents,
Speaker 1: and you know, and at Princeton of Christopher Columbus, these
Speaker 1: these debates are feeling in America. It's only just starting,
Speaker 1: and you know, I hope to see it. It's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's extremely painful, but I hope to see those
Speaker 1: debates intensified because it's a conversation that's long overdune, right,
Speaker 1: And so how do you see that reckoning like that
Speaker 1: the stages of reckoning, because if Germany is in this
Speaker 1: advanced place, because I know, like in the curriculum, it's
Speaker 1: not like America where we're actively in a process of
Speaker 1: banning people from knowing anything about the United States history
Speaker 1: if it has anything to do with, you know, something
Speaker 1: that could make the country look bad. And the stage
Speaker 1: that there's this reckoning where most people are because of
Speaker 1: public education and the messaging and the media, we're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we understand this is our history. It's bad. We need
Speaker 1: to reckon with it. And then it just sort of
Speaker 1: cools off and sort of gets to a place where
Speaker 1: we acknowledge that it's bad. It's not a place to
Speaker 1: go back to, but let's not really look back at
Speaker 1: it too much because we've already done the reckoning. Is
Speaker 1: that sort of the energy or is that sort of
Speaker 1: like inertia that you're trying to break kind of of
Speaker 1: bringing this discussion back up, bringing this discussion to like
Speaker 1: I feel there's a massive discrepancy between German society, which
Speaker 1: is so acutely aware of its collective guilt of remembrance culture,
Speaker 1: and the most powerful in Germany that pretends to an extent,
Speaker 1: or at least outwardly pretend that, you know, they're the
Speaker 1: people who created the billions for them, did nothing, did
Speaker 1: nothing wrong at least that's what they show, right did
Speaker 1: what they come comes down to in practice? Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think there's a massive discrepancy in that, because owning up
Speaker 1: to that means disavowing your father or grandfather, who of course,
Speaker 1: you know, these airs did not create their fortunes. So
Speaker 1: they they they derived their entire identity from their father
Speaker 1: saving BMW from bankruptcy, or for their father constructing the
Speaker 1: first bars of sports car, for making the billions that
Speaker 1: they now live off. So it's also becomes a question
Speaker 1: of identity. But the problem is, of course, these these
Speaker 1: these men and women, they control swaps of the global economy.
Speaker 1: You know, they produce consumer goods that that that everybody
Speaker 1: uses every day. So it doesn't I feel that they
Speaker 1: don't seem to realize the kind of responsibility that they have. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, on the one hand, like, yeah, they seem
Speaker 1: like this is a I don't know, it just feels
Speaker 1: like this is really of a piece with a larger
Speaker 1: trend we just see across the global economy, which is
Speaker 1: that not not only does it send a message that
Speaker 1: in the modern world you can become the sort of
Speaker 1: like rarefied winner of just everything, like escape the human condition,
Speaker 1: have your name remembered after death on buildings and streets
Speaker 1: by exploiting war crimes. But it just sends a message
Speaker 1: that like thoroughly an old really like the you know,
Speaker 1: guilt and innocence and like morality like don't matter and
Speaker 1: as long as you're making money. And I feel like
Speaker 1: we just people are just now coming to grips with that,
Speaker 1: and like we pathologize and diagnose and medically treat our
Speaker 1: unhelped unhappiness in a system that like tells us everywhere
Speaker 1: every day that like, well, but you know, you're kind
Speaker 1: of like it doesn't say it would never say this. Instead,
Speaker 1: they would create a foundation that would like ultimately find
Speaker 1: academically that they would never say something like this. But
Speaker 1: what all the actions and like outcomes of everything tell
Speaker 1: you that we are insignificant rounding errors in a massive
Speaker 1: system that's like ultimately designed to create wealthy people and
Speaker 1: have those extremely wealthy people kind of perpetuate their wealth.
Speaker 1: So depressing me, Well, when I see individual examples like this,
Speaker 1: like it feels like you know, we are like this
Speaker 1: is a correctable thing, Like hold people accountable for their
Speaker 1: immoral actions, especially when they're rich, because like when they're
Speaker 1: rich and use that wealth to escape the consequences of
Speaker 1: their immoral actions, like that is the ultimate condemnation of
Speaker 1: your system. Like that, Like you can't let that happen,
Speaker 1: and like that's all we do is let that happen. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean there's just like this thing, like you know,
Speaker 1: we all it's hard to reckon with it all because
Speaker 1: we want to avoid acknowledging the barbarism of our society
Speaker 1: and and sort of maintain this idea that becoming rich
Speaker 1: as a moral pursuit and that that there are heroes
Speaker 1: that we celebrate, and we were unable to really divorce
Speaker 1: ourselves from this really sick kind of mythology that we
Speaker 1: have to the point where, yeah, that the message really is, well,
Speaker 1: if you're rich enough, you can do anything. That's really
Speaker 1: the thing that I think resonates with all of these examples,
Speaker 1: which is doesn't if you're rich enough you can you
Speaker 1: can suck it. Just buy the fucking newspaper that's talking
Speaker 1: bad about you and just silence them, right, Just do that.
Speaker 1: It's easy. You want to stop people from talking about
Speaker 1: you get into publishing, like I've I've heard you talk
Speaker 1: a lot. I've heard you talk before in other interviews
Speaker 1: about people like even you know Springer, the owner of Politico,
Speaker 1: and just generally even how we were constantly we have
Speaker 1: these figures who are now getting into the media sphere
Speaker 1: too and being able to massage and control the narratives
Speaker 1: from there because again, you can make the rules up
Speaker 1: when you have a certain amount of money. Do you
Speaker 1: have you like seen anything where you're like, wow, people
Speaker 1: are really quick to just justify this and move on,
Speaker 1: like other than by the families themselves. But just like
Speaker 1: in as you are bringing this to people's attention, have
Speaker 1: you seen like do people seem surprised? Because I my
Speaker 1: concern is that like people have ultimately accepted that, like
Speaker 1: wealth is the only goal, and yes, the entire enterprises
Speaker 1: a moral but like fuck it, like that's that's the
Speaker 1: way it is. I do feel there's a there there's
Speaker 1: a change in in in in that consciousness. I feel
Speaker 1: I feel that that people are becoming more aware of
Speaker 1: that and trying to do something good with the money
Speaker 1: that they're making, you know, to an extent, but yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. I mean, you know there were people when
Speaker 1: you know, I spent four years in Berlin from Berlin,
Speaker 1: you know, doing research and moved from New York to
Speaker 1: Berlin to do research for this book. And you're right
Speaker 1: it And you know there are people who said, how
Speaker 1: you know Germany has done such a great job, but
Speaker 1: you know, at reckoning with with our history, and that's
Speaker 1: not you know, that's not really a point. I think
Speaker 1: Germany to a large extent has done a great job,
Speaker 1: and it's a fantastic country. It's just that I feel
Speaker 1: that the most powerful and not only the most economically powerful,
Speaker 1: but you know, the family that controls BMW, Germany's wealthiest family,
Speaker 1: the Quants, they, you know, are also the largest political
Speaker 1: donors to to what was Angela Merkel's party, right, and
Speaker 1: and you know with economic power also comes great political power.
Speaker 1: And that's you know, it's the one at the very
Speaker 1: top that are still glossing over leaving out this history. Mhmm. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: thank you for writing this book, Thanks for coming on
Speaker 1: our show and trying to our listeners about it. You're
Speaker 1: not We're not letting you go yet. I thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're you're stuck for another ya ten minutes. But yeah,
Speaker 1: and people, people can go out and get this book now,
Speaker 1: and we suggest you do. Let's take a quick break
Speaker 1: and then we'll come back and talk Coachella, you guys,
Speaker 1: and we're back, and just at a surface level, is that.
Speaker 1: Have you guys watched any any coach Hella coverage, if
Speaker 1: you watched any of the performances streamed anything. I just
Speaker 1: saw pictures of people, celebrities that we're there. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've seen like the two seconds of a Billie Eilish
Speaker 1: performance that they keep showing me on Twitter to be
Speaker 1: like check it out. It was like the number one
Speaker 1: trending thing for like four days out of the five
Speaker 1: days this week, the same clip over and over again.
Speaker 1: I don't know if my Twitter like is broken or what,
Speaker 1: but it just felt I felt like they really wanted
Speaker 1: me to to watch that. But those two seconds looked
Speaker 1: like there was a lot of energy there. You know.
Speaker 1: I I'm not that interested in like watching video of
Speaker 1: live music performances personally, that's just like not a I mean,
Speaker 1: unless you're watching like an actual produced to like music,
Speaker 1: like a rock documentary or concert documentary. But yeah, phone
Speaker 1: footage of a live show not gonna kind of work.
Speaker 1: But I mean the wildest thing was to see uh
Speaker 1: like Leonardo DiCaprio would like just completely masked up, like
Speaker 1: like blowing through there like some ghost. It's just being
Speaker 1: like I'm here, but you'll never see my face and
Speaker 1: I'm vaping. But the Yeah, he he had a mask
Speaker 1: on that like covered up most of his face. It
Speaker 1: looked like one of those uh those uh fencing like masks.
Speaker 1: So I got some tickets. You're trying to unload, jack
Speaker 1: or what? Yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying it looks tight
Speaker 1: and like people should maybe think about like hitting me
Speaker 1: up on Twitter. G ms are open and this weekend
Speaker 1: second weekends supposed to be the best, so just check
Speaker 1: it out. Uh So that's been Coachella. No, So Jackman
Speaker 1: did this article where they were talking about like, you know,
Speaker 1: coach Ella continues to be at the bleeding edge of
Speaker 1: capitalist bullshit, and there's like some good points in there.
Speaker 1: I just think they're a little bit dismissive of like
Speaker 1: how potent like this this festival and this ideal is.
Speaker 1: You know, they highlight the barge barges full of garbage
Speaker 1: and like months of water supply being sucked out of
Speaker 1: a very delicate ecosystem in single weekends. Uh this year,
Speaker 1: there's an n f T spin on it where you're
Speaker 1: given an n f T desert flower seed and then
Speaker 1: you get to sit back and watch it bloom. And
Speaker 1: if you get one of the six rare desert flowers,
Speaker 1: if that's what your n f T blooms into, you
Speaker 1: get like I don't know, like the big stuffed animal
Speaker 1: or some ship, I don't know what. What's that? Did
Speaker 1: you get insulin? Oh? Yeah, yeah exactly. But truly feels
Speaker 1: like the the n f T market is just evolving
Speaker 1: into a elementary school carnival. Yeah, they and the people
Speaker 1: who keep hockeying them cannot read the room. Ever. Zig
Speaker 1: Cody Ziggler pointed out this thing that there was like
Speaker 1: an n f T like a board ape yacht club
Speaker 1: thing that was supposed to be in like in like
Speaker 1: sort of coincide with four twenty and like weed justice
Speaker 1: for black people, but as an n f T and
Speaker 1: you're like, this is all bad, Like this is so
Speaker 1: has completely no awareness at all around what anyone thinks
Speaker 1: of this or even what the imagery is of like
Speaker 1: putting an ape with like the context of like black
Speaker 1: people are incarcerated because of like weed charges. Um. Anyway,
Speaker 1: it's just yeah that that ball keep throwing steadily. But
Speaker 1: so the detail that jumped out to me is just
Speaker 1: kind of having some familiarity with the history of Americans
Speaker 1: currently known as the Baby Boomers. That Burning Man or sorry,
Speaker 1: coach Elo was originally designed by its founders as a
Speaker 1: synthesis of nineties music festivals. Burning Man and quote the
Speaker 1: sixties era longing for a new world, which three days
Speaker 1: in the desert helps satisfy m And I just thought
Speaker 1: that was like to be dismissive of that is a mistake.
Speaker 1: That's like so specific and clear, and it was so
Speaker 1: effective with the Baby Boomers, you know, they had like
Speaker 1: all these revolutionary impulses and like they took that and
Speaker 1: with the case of Coachella, they give it a fun,
Speaker 1: like pretty release valve that's neatly contained in the middle
Speaker 1: of the desert, doesn't actually have any impact and in
Speaker 1: fact enriches American Express or whoever the corporate sponsors are.
Speaker 1: But like Woodstock was a music festival conceived by Fifth Avenue,
Speaker 1: like admin, and like that history has like only slowly
Speaker 1: like trickled out. But any sort of idealism of the
Speaker 1: sixties like got turned into just like advertising aesthetic basically,
Speaker 1: and the people who got rich off of that aesthetic
Speaker 1: are in the business of making sure that like you understand,
Speaker 1: it's just an aesthetic that is like fun to visit
Speaker 1: every once in a while, and you know it's created
Speaker 1: the current world, like the what what happened with the sixties,
Speaker 1: and like I highly recommend the electric kool Aid asset tests,
Speaker 1: the tracking of the Mary Pranksters and like the LSD
Speaker 1: movement that sprung up around like the Grateful Dead and
Speaker 1: ken KSI and like that just kind of falling apart.
Speaker 1: But I don't know, like we like that. That's very
Speaker 1: that's very potent to be like, yeah, no, we just
Speaker 1: like create this little pop up shop Disneyland for people
Speaker 1: where we you know, make beautiful advertisement versions of the
Speaker 1: issues you care about. You get to take home a souvenir,
Speaker 1: you get to take pictures there that like put you
Speaker 1: in an environment where it seems like you're actually engaging
Speaker 1: with the thing. And then you're done, and like that
Speaker 1: you can go back to the big loneliness, as someone
Speaker 1: recently called it when talking about Rec's eggs, And I
Speaker 1: just think it's it's important to recognize that like that
Speaker 1: group that like started out with those idealistic impulses are
Speaker 1: now the group that's like funding or that's fueling like
Speaker 1: you and on and the rise of Donald Trump and ship,
Speaker 1: so like we have an opportunity to not do that
Speaker 1: with a lot of the like energy around social justice
Speaker 1: and social movements. But I think it's important that people
Speaker 1: like recognize that this is somewhat insidious. What when it's
Speaker 1: like converted into just a an ad for American Express
Speaker 1: that you participate in creating on your Instagram feed, But
Speaker 1: you're saying like it's but more than that, the insidious
Speaker 1: nature is to give people this like sort of well
Speaker 1: coordinated distraction to just kind of take a little wind
Speaker 1: out of the sales. So you're like, yeah, blow some
Speaker 1: steam off at Coachella. Then I can go back to
Speaker 1: toiling and not really getting the itch to likese. Like
Speaker 1: even your reference this line of saying like spent to
Speaker 1: spend three days in like a world that three days
Speaker 1: in a new world longing for a new world, which
Speaker 1: three days in the desert helps satisfy just sort of
Speaker 1: subdue the longing for the new world. Yeah, and you
Speaker 1: associated with that, Like suddenly your idea for like a
Speaker 1: socialist society or like community where you can like be
Speaker 1: part of a community with other people and like be
Speaker 1: outdoors and outdoor spaces. Suddenly that's something you associate with
Speaker 1: like a trip to the desert for three days instead
Speaker 1: of something that you like work with your uh, like
Speaker 1: the people in your community to accomplish uh in your community.
Speaker 1: Like it becomes just a part of Disneyland of like
Speaker 1: this like simulacrum of like an idealistic society that actually
Speaker 1: is contained by American Express. Like they like try to
Speaker 1: imagine hearing that like a revolution rose up on the
Speaker 1: Coachella campgrounds, Like like it's it's impossible because it's so
Speaker 1: carefully tailored. There's also a New Yorker article that like
Speaker 1: it follows around the guy who created Coachella, and you
Speaker 1: know he's just trying to make money. But like the
Speaker 1: the thing that was the scariest moment for him in
Speaker 1: the history of the festival was when like people figured
Speaker 1: out how to clone the bracelets and like they had
Speaker 1: a gate crashing. You like, it's that's how carefully contend
Speaker 1: it is well, I mean, I think everyone's so fucked
Speaker 1: up there. I don't know what they're bringing back with
Speaker 1: them at the end of it, but they may be
Speaker 1: subdued by the amount of drugs either way. But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's fine. Like I don't I don't mean to like
Speaker 1: I I also don't look down on anyone going to
Speaker 1: Coachella and like going and getting funked up in the
Speaker 1: desert like around music they love. I just I think
Speaker 1: it's I don't know, I think the packaging of it
Speaker 1: and the engaging with it, Like it's not just merely
Speaker 1: that you're going to a music festival. There are other
Speaker 1: people who are trying to do a lot of marketing, normalizing, etcetera.
Speaker 1: Like it's it's not it's not it's not as I guess,
Speaker 1: it's not as what it appears to maybe on the
Speaker 1: consumer side versus what you know, companies like you're mentioning
Speaker 1: get out of it too, like to associate their name
Speaker 1: with like, oh, check out the like PEPSI cool water
Speaker 1: filling like station, and now you're like, oh, yeah, they
Speaker 1: the water filling thing from the company that also sucks
Speaker 1: drinking water out of the fucking earth. Like that sort
Speaker 1: of mixed signaling. Essentially, Yeah, I don't know it just
Speaker 1: it do it feels? You know. The whole thesis of
Speaker 1: our show is that there's this collective unconscious and that
Speaker 1: like people are smarter than than the mainstream like media
Speaker 1: apparatus like often gives them credit for. And I think
Speaker 1: like all of the ship matters, like the messages we
Speaker 1: get from the fact that, oh yeah, like the richest
Speaker 1: family in Germany are like Nazi billionaires. The Coachella is
Speaker 1: like taking all the things that are actually like serious, good,
Speaker 1: beautiful ideas that we should be thinking about incorporating into
Speaker 1: our daily lives and like turn them into a aesthetic
Speaker 1: that like, you you know, get to bathe in on
Speaker 1: Instagram for a couple of days and then like move
Speaker 1: on from Like I think all that stuff is had
Speaker 1: an impact. That is what has kept people advocating, like,
Speaker 1: you know, not advocating for their best interests for the
Speaker 1: past like fifty sixty years. Basically, Yeah, I mean, I
Speaker 1: wonder if the difference is right because at least boomers
Speaker 1: and Gen xers they were able to benefit from an
Speaker 1: economy that began to sub brue a lot of those
Speaker 1: revolutionary impulses, right, because especially with the eighties, we're like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're yuppies, now you're sold out or whatever, and it's like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm now a guy. I might actually have access to wealth.
Speaker 1: But millennials and younger we're not, We're not following that
Speaker 1: same path. So I think they're I'm I'm I'm curious,
Speaker 1: how like what has to happen where you have to
Speaker 1: kind of really take the to subdue the urges that
Speaker 1: are so many young people feel now around like saying like, dude,
Speaker 1: I'm completely disillusioned by my lack of opportunity, Like I'm
Speaker 1: in fact, I've become nihilistic. Where you know, how do
Speaker 1: you how do you like turn that person into like
Speaker 1: a good, you know, target shopping consumer for life type person,
Speaker 1: especially when they don't even have the money to do
Speaker 1: stuff within the first place. I mean, I think maybe
Speaker 1: that's like the weird moment that we're into is like
Speaker 1: that process is a little bit slowing down because of
Speaker 1: the massive amounts of inequality. Yeah, David, what are what
Speaker 1: are your thoughts? Both says you know someone from outside
Speaker 1: the country, but also you know somebody who used to
Speaker 1: report for Bloomberg. Where where where do you kind of
Speaker 1: fall on this whole like moment in American idealism. I
Speaker 1: guess I'm extremely worried about well, particularly what's going on
Speaker 1: in America the polemic, but also and I mean I
Speaker 1: write about it in the book. You know, when I
Speaker 1: started reporting for Bloomberg News in twleven on this team,
Speaker 1: it was literally last week of November eleven when when
Speaker 1: Succotti Park, when Occupy Wall Street was forcibly removed overnight.
Speaker 1: It was the beginning of the debate of the one
Speaker 1: percent versus or now it's it's transformed into the zero
Speaker 1: point one percent versus nine and that you know, the
Speaker 1: you know, the bifurcation of society and the you know.
Speaker 1: Afterwards came Piccatti, of course, who took at you the
Speaker 1: next level and also showed gave the historical context. But
Speaker 1: it's only got to gotten worse in recent years. And
Speaker 1: I'm deeply concerned for the future of America. I'm very
Speaker 1: concerned for the future of Europe as well, because it
Speaker 1: has it has similar problems, you know, in terms of
Speaker 1: the incredible inequality of wealth and and and the haves
Speaker 1: and have not. It's not you know, is is also
Speaker 1: undermining you know, the fabric of Europe and European Union
Speaker 1: as it is in the United States, in terms of
Speaker 1: political spending, on political capital, political power, the shaping of
Speaker 1: American capitalism as it you know, we started off this
Speaker 1: episode talking about Earth Day and and scientists saying, oh,
Speaker 1: it's going only going to be two degrees, you know,
Speaker 1: in the next century. The problem of wealth inequality at
Speaker 1: one hand and and climate change at the other, which
Speaker 1: very much go hand in hand. You know, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: really sorry, but I'm worried that it's already, you know,
Speaker 1: it's too late. You know, it's that where we're you know,
Speaker 1: we're on the on the precipice of day of of
Speaker 1: decades of disaster and war and troubles and and you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm very concerned for said the world.
Speaker 1: Sorry to leave you guys with this. I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it's something we all feel because it's there's
Speaker 1: the rigidity of it all when we're seeing that the
Speaker 1: way that the powers that be are the wealthy, choose
Speaker 1: to solve problems and actually exacerbate the existing problems, and
Speaker 1: they can't see that terrible feedback loop that you know.
Speaker 1: I think that's why a lot of people are like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess the wheels have to completely fall off for
Speaker 1: people to figure it out. Um, but can that happen?
Speaker 1: Or on the other side of it, even see people
Speaker 1: how they're even saying like, well, you know what, we'll
Speaker 1: spend our way out of climate change. We'll build and
Speaker 1: innovate our way out of climate change, and we'll just
Speaker 1: spend more money and experiment more, rather than just doing
Speaker 1: the very simple thing, which is like begin to switch
Speaker 1: to renewable sources of energy and really have and think
Speaker 1: of like what the amount of you know, carbon output
Speaker 1: that certain industries are emitting every year. But rather than
Speaker 1: doing that, it's like, no, we'll just keep doing this
Speaker 1: and like we do, if a problem comes up, we'll
Speaker 1: just spend money to try and figure it out. But
Speaker 1: at that point, I just feel like the problems are
Speaker 1: being surmountable where no amount of money can be spent
Speaker 1: to like I don't know, have a desalinization plant that
Speaker 1: could you know, like hydrate the entire hemisphere. What are
Speaker 1: we talking about here in that scenario? And I think
Speaker 1: that's what is a little bit disillusioning, is that, oh,
Speaker 1: we see that the same problem solving mentality is We're
Speaker 1: just going to stay in place because of the people
Speaker 1: that are in power consistently. Well, David, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on, Thank you for writing this book.
Speaker 1: Where can people find you? Follow you, get the book,
Speaker 1: all that good stuff if you If you want to
Speaker 1: get the book, get it at bookshop dot org because
Speaker 1: they support local and independent booksellers. And if you want
Speaker 1: to order it online, go there, or just go to
Speaker 1: your local bookstore and get it and get it there.
Speaker 1: You can follow me at David de Young on Twitter
Speaker 1: and Instagram. Here you and is there a tweet or
Speaker 1: some of the work of social media you've been enjoying.
Speaker 1: I am still enjoying. Three weeks later, the tweet by
Speaker 1: Elon Musk about getting this at Bergheim, and he said,
Speaker 1: I saw peace written on the wall at Berkheim. They
Speaker 1: refused I refused enter, which was like sent at seven
Speaker 1: am in the morning Berlin time. And it was unclear
Speaker 1: whether he was rejected from Bergheim, the famous nightclub in Berlin,
Speaker 1: which is impossible to get into, or whether he did
Speaker 1: not want to enter. But some people are speculating that
Speaker 1: because he was you know, he received so much, you know,
Speaker 1: he was laughed about so much following a tweet that
Speaker 1: day that he launched his hostile takeover of Twitter following
Speaker 1: week Wait, his his tweet, original tweet, which I I, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, I try to stay up on Elon Musky.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, I'm sure. Yeah. Well, the tweet was of
Speaker 1: the exact tweet was day wrote peace on the wall
Speaker 1: at Burghard. I refused enter. I refused to enter, which
Speaker 1: was like a no peace like peace, like like love
Speaker 1: and peace. Yeah yeah, and and I refused enter. And
Speaker 1: it was sent at about eleven pm East Coast time,
Speaker 1: so it was five t exactly time. TWITTERIM five am
Speaker 1: Berlin time. He had just opened his Giga factory in Berlin,
Speaker 1: and I guess you wanted to celebrate in berkheind that
Speaker 1: certainly didn't happen. Burkeheid notctorious for its for its strict
Speaker 1: or policy, and it's cooler than cool being able to enter.
Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to gain entry a few times,
Speaker 1: but only because of my much cooler friends. But I
Speaker 1: found it. Yeah, I still I'm still enjoying it, especially
Speaker 1: now seeing the entire battle between Musk and Twitter for
Speaker 1: who's going to control Twitter? And uh yeah, we'll see
Speaker 1: that being decided in the next couple of weeks. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm team I'm team Twitter. Right, it's odd to think
Speaker 1: that his him getting dissed at the door at burg
Speaker 1: Eyn is like Trump at that correspondence dinner. Right, Yes,
Speaker 1: that's my originary hurt. Yes, I will use to launch
Speaker 1: this destruction campaign. Was like the ultimate goal of this
Speaker 1: whole system we've been talking about. Still doesn't make you happy?
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. Oh wow, richest asshole in the world can't
Speaker 1: walk through a door now pissed, We'll buy Twitter cool?
Speaker 1: Sign me up, Miles. Where can people find you? What
Speaker 1: is the tweet you've been enjoying? Uh? Find me on
Speaker 1: Twitter and Instagram at Miles of Gray. Also, you know,
Speaker 1: we got a basketball podcast, Mad Blues Jack and I
Speaker 1: and also my other reality trash TV show fiance checked
Speaker 1: that pot out If you like ninety day Spurs tweet
Speaker 1: I like from Blair Saki at Blair Saki tweeted, I
Speaker 1: really want to fall in love, but but not with
Speaker 1: any man I know or have met or seen before.
Speaker 1: It's just great. Just you just want something new, that
Speaker 1: perfect thing that's out there. And then another one from
Speaker 1: doctor hurdy Gurdy at not really a doctor tweeted, I
Speaker 1: like big butts, and I cannot lie. My brother like
Speaker 1: small butts and cannot tell the truth. Each of us
Speaker 1: guards a door. One leads to an and one leads
Speaker 1: to an anaconda that is sprung, the other to certain death.
Speaker 1: I love that. I love that. I loved it more
Speaker 1: if it wasn't Also my tweet Miles un you know
Speaker 1: what we gotta coordinate before anyways. Uh yeah, latest episode
Speaker 1: of One Drop yesterday, we're talking to Anthony Edwards. It's
Speaker 1: a blast. Yeah, just another tweet. I've been enjoying. Vinny
Speaker 1: Thomas at then underscore A tweeted, my sauce packet drawer
Speaker 1: is a thriving metropolis and a beacon of diversity. I
Speaker 1: think that is true of a lot of sauce pack
Speaker 1: drawers and SketchUp packets, hunts, I throw away hunt. You
Speaker 1: gotta keep always. And then somebody tweeted for those of
Speaker 1: you who are going to continue to wear masks on
Speaker 1: your flights, how will you respond to a passenger asking
Speaker 1: you why you were still wearing a mask? And Hannah
Speaker 1: Michael's tweeted, my breath smells like come and I think
Speaker 1: that's a good answer. I think that's the way to go.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with that. You can find and us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Daily Zeitgeist. We're at the Daily Zeitgeist
Speaker 1: on Instagram, we have Facebook fan page and a website,
Speaker 1: Daily zeitgeist dot com where we post our episodes. On
Speaker 1: our foot notes were a link off to the information
Speaker 1: that we talked about today's episode, as well as a
Speaker 1: song that we think you might enjoy. Miles, what song
Speaker 1: do we think they might enjoy it? Okay, So this
Speaker 1: is a collaboration between this artist from Guinea named Fallene
Speaker 1: Okay f A L l E n I Okay and
Speaker 1: this just like I believe this guy is a UK producer,
Speaker 1: London based producer named ghost Culture, and this track that
Speaker 1: they're on together called le wole l E y w
Speaker 1: O l E is like a really great synthesis of
Speaker 1: like West African vocals and like lyrical stylings, but with
Speaker 1: this you know, kind of like obscure electronic, like edited
Speaker 1: African percussion beat on it. And I don't know, it's
Speaker 1: just a very good blend of musical styles that fits
Speaker 1: very well and it just feels like a very original track.
Speaker 1: So check out this track. It's called le Wole by
Speaker 1: Ghost Culture and falle ni Okay. Speaking of ghost culture,
Speaker 1: check out Jamie Loftus is The trailer for her new
Speaker 1: podcast is up and it is all about spiritualism, which
Speaker 1: is like the American religion of ghosts basically, you know
Speaker 1: it was. It was practiced by a lot of people
Speaker 1: around the time of the Civil War. It's called ghost
Speaker 1: Church and it's you know, the thing that started by
Speaker 1: the Fox Sisters who we're communing with the dead, and
Speaker 1: the dead would talk back by by knocking on walls,
Speaker 1: which was a scam. They were actually doing the knocking.
Speaker 1: But that is still around to this day. And the
Speaker 1: trailer's dope again, Ghost Church by Jamie Loftus. That is
Speaker 1: going to do it for us this morning. We are
Speaker 1: back this afternoon to tell you what is trending and
Speaker 1: we will talk to y'all. Then I didn't do the
Speaker 1: part where I say The Daily Zeygeist is a production
Speaker 1: of by Heart Radio. For more podcast for my Heart Radio,
Speaker 1: visit the heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows. Yeah, and that that'll do it.
Speaker 1: That'll do pig for today's that'll do a full episode
Speaker 1: back this afternoon to tell you what's trip fight fight