Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly
Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small
Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions
Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,
Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or
Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website
Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope
Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it
Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship
Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so
Speaker 1: much for joining me for Session to eighty one of
Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get into our
Speaker 1: conversation right after a word from our sponsors. This week,
Speaker 1: I'm joined by Jamal Hill, an Emmy Award winning journalists,
Speaker 1: creator and host of the podcast Jamal Hill is Unbothered.
Speaker 1: She's also the founder of The Unbothered Network, a groundbreaking
Speaker 1: podcast and production company. You may also be familiar with
Speaker 1: her nearly twelve year career for sports conglomerate ESPN or
Speaker 1: her prolific writing at the intersection of sports and race
Speaker 1: as a current staff writer for The Atlantic and former
Speaker 1: senior correspondent in columnists for The Undefeated. Today, she joins
Speaker 1: us to talk about her newly released memoir Uphell, which
Speaker 1: details her upbringing in Detroit, her longtime career in sports journalism,
Speaker 1: overcoming a legacy of pain, and forging a new path.
Speaker 1: During our conversation, we discussed the considerations and discussion she
Speaker 1: had while writing about her family history, her career defining moments,
Speaker 1: and how she prioritized her mental health while writing the book.
Speaker 1: If something resonates with you while enjoying our conversation, please
Speaker 1: share with us on social media using the hashtag tv
Speaker 1: G in Session or join us over in the Sister
Speaker 1: Circle to talk more in depth about the episode. You
Speaker 1: can join us at Community not Therapy for Black Girls
Speaker 1: dot com. Here's our conversation. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us today, Jamil, Well, thank you. I appreciate being here.
Speaker 1: I've been really looking forward to this. Likewise, so happy
Speaker 1: to chat with you about your memoir. Very excited for
Speaker 1: people to be able to pick it up and check
Speaker 1: it out. So it feels like you have done so
Speaker 1: many things, you wear so many halves. Can you give
Speaker 1: us a little bit of insight into who Jamal Hill
Speaker 1: is today well. One of the best compliments I think
Speaker 1: I often received from people, particularly for friends who have
Speaker 1: known me for a long time, is that they feel like,
Speaker 1: although I've grown and matured, that I'm the same person
Speaker 1: that they met X amount of years ago. The core,
Speaker 1: basic foundation of who I am has never changed. And
Speaker 1: I do think that change and growth are different things.
Speaker 1: I want to never change, but I want to always grow,
Speaker 1: if that makes any sense, And so I think at
Speaker 1: the core of it, I'm always going to be somebody
Speaker 1: who certainly believes in working hard, but believes that life
Speaker 1: should be lived with a sense of adventure. That's always
Speaker 1: been something that's been really important to me. And so
Speaker 1: as much as I'm doing fifty projects and I got
Speaker 1: sixty two jobs, I still try to keep a sense
Speaker 1: of adventure, that spirit and everything that I do. I
Speaker 1: think that that is quite a compliment and quite the
Speaker 1: feat for people who have known you for a significant
Speaker 1: amount of time to say You've done different things, but
Speaker 1: you have not changed. What do you attribute that to? Like,
Speaker 1: that sense of being grounded, I think it has a
Speaker 1: lot to do with the way that I grew up.
Speaker 1: When you grow up in some of the challenging circumstances
Speaker 1: that I did. I think about often some of those
Speaker 1: very tough moments, bad moments, and I think because I
Speaker 1: was able to persevere through that, that's why, like now,
Speaker 1: in present day, it really would take a lot to
Speaker 1: just kind of sort of get me down because I'm like,
Speaker 1: I think I've already seen the worst of it. Okay,
Speaker 1: does not have to say that I won't face any
Speaker 1: more obstacles or any more challenges or even things that
Speaker 1: might be on the same level of what I experienced
Speaker 1: as a child. But I think my perspective is just
Speaker 1: so much different now. And because I know what it's
Speaker 1: like to not have and know what it's like to
Speaker 1: kind of be, you know, missing some core elements of
Speaker 1: support around you, then it allows me to navigate this
Speaker 1: life that I'm in now much differently with the respect
Speaker 1: for it and appreciation for it, of course, and with
Speaker 1: the understanding is that this could all go away and
Speaker 1: smoke tomorrow, so I better make decisions and live my
Speaker 1: life as enjoyably as I possibly can. M hm. So
Speaker 1: I'm curious, was a book always a part of the
Speaker 1: plan for you? Because this is your debut book, And
Speaker 1: so I'm curious to know. Was it a memoir always
Speaker 1: your choice? Did you consider writing something else? Tell me
Speaker 1: you a little bit about the decision to even write
Speaker 1: a book right now. A book was always something I
Speaker 1: wanted to do. A book about myself was something I
Speaker 1: never wanted to do. So no, this was not the
Speaker 1: plan was to do a memoir first. I really want
Speaker 1: to and I want to say it in present tense
Speaker 1: to make sure that I do be right fiction, and
Speaker 1: I think eventually I will do that, but this was
Speaker 1: sort of the book that the market decided was the
Speaker 1: one that had to be first, and I'm glad that
Speaker 1: it worked out this way. That I had to kind
Speaker 1: of be convinced to do this because going through this
Speaker 1: journey of writing this memoir was very eye opening. I
Speaker 1: had to unpack some things and unlock some doors that
Speaker 1: I pad lockshut, and so this forced me to kind
Speaker 1: of d with those issues again and remembering certain incidents
Speaker 1: and having to relive some things That was not always
Speaker 1: easy to do. But nevertheless, I feel better because I
Speaker 1: was able to do that. So No, a memoir was
Speaker 1: never in the plans. Wow, So tell me more about
Speaker 1: like the convincing I'm guessing this is your agent the
Speaker 1: publishing company. What was the convincing to say, hey, this
Speaker 1: is what we feel like it's needed right now. It
Speaker 1: was my literary agent, David Labell. He was chief among
Speaker 1: the convincers, if you will. And as I said, the
Speaker 1: market decided, which you know what that means money, I
Speaker 1: mean to be frank, is that he had a really
Speaker 1: good feeling because of the time of my life where
Speaker 1: I was being approached about writing a book. He had
Speaker 1: a really good feeling that this book would go to
Speaker 1: auction many it would be several publishers bidding for it.
Speaker 1: And that's exactly what happened. And so while obviously it
Speaker 1: was my decision, I had the final say. So he
Speaker 1: was just like, the book publishing business is hard, and
Speaker 1: while I know you want to eventually write fit and
Speaker 1: this is a great entry point for you to do.
Speaker 1: So you write this book, if it's successful, then it's
Speaker 1: gonna be a lot easier to get people to buy
Speaker 1: into a fiction product. So it was a combination of
Speaker 1: you know, strategy and looking ahead money and just as
Speaker 1: I said, you know, understanding that he felt like there
Speaker 1: was a real audience for this story and that I
Speaker 1: could really make this a transformative process. So yeah, he
Speaker 1: convinced me, and I said, Okay, I'll just grip my
Speaker 1: teeth and suffer through and write all of this. But
Speaker 1: as I said, I'm so glad that I did it
Speaker 1: because it really was a worthwhile experience. Mm hmmmm yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, so it's a memoir, so it's incredibly personal,
Speaker 1: you know, as you mentioned, lots of difficult experiences, and
Speaker 1: I don't feel like at he's reading it you held
Speaker 1: anything back. It is very honest, and so I would
Speaker 1: love to hear if you're comfortable with sharing, like what
Speaker 1: was the process of like talking to your mom and
Speaker 1: your husband and maybe other family members, and what was
Speaker 1: the process of letting them know that were about to
Speaker 1: write this story. Well, of course, my husband, like he
Speaker 1: knew first it was happening, and I mean certainly he
Speaker 1: was aware of most of my story, but there were
Speaker 1: just certain details I hadn't yet had an opportunity to share.
Speaker 1: Because I think people who are married and attested this
Speaker 1: is that even though you're married and you feel like
Speaker 1: you know the core person and who they are and
Speaker 1: you know their life story to a large extent, but
Speaker 1: there's always moments and instances that you haven't quite feeled
Speaker 1: in for them yet, not because you're trying to hide them.
Speaker 1: It's just either it hasn't come up, or you haven't
Speaker 1: thought about sharing it or whatever. And so I gave
Speaker 1: him a sense of what I would be writing about it,
Speaker 1: and he was the first person to read it, and
Speaker 1: it's like raw's form, so that he would know everything
Speaker 1: that was gonna be in this book. And of course
Speaker 1: when you're writing a memoir, you have to think about
Speaker 1: how it will impact the relationships that you currently have,
Speaker 1: and even how people maybe you have not talked to
Speaker 1: in a while, how they will look at what you
Speaker 1: have written. So, yes, me and my mother, we had
Speaker 1: a lot of conversations. Some of them were very difficult,
Speaker 1: and difficult just in the sense of unfortunately she had
Speaker 1: to replay and recount some very awful moments in her life.
Speaker 1: And I made sure to save those moments for the
Speaker 1: last conversations that we would have in the book, so
Speaker 1: that it wasn't constantly a trauma call every time I
Speaker 1: talked to her. And so she's become like the family
Speaker 1: historian now, so she knows it could feel in for me.
Speaker 1: Some other details that I didn't know about her early life,
Speaker 1: about my grandmother's early life, about things like that that
Speaker 1: I did not know. So it was also in the
Speaker 1: process that I learned a lot about my family and
Speaker 1: a lot about both my mother and my father and
Speaker 1: my grandmother too throughout this. So I had the most
Speaker 1: conversations with her. I had some with my dad. My
Speaker 1: dad still has not read the book, and fool my
Speaker 1: mother has and that was also a difficult conversation. Is
Speaker 1: one thing if I'm interviewing you and we're talking about
Speaker 1: it and you sort of know what's gonna be in
Speaker 1: the book, it's another thing to read it. And there
Speaker 1: were some things that her and I had an argument about,
Speaker 1: to be honest, like, she was not happy with some
Speaker 1: of the things that were in there. But we were
Speaker 1: able to work through that and come to some compromises,
Speaker 1: just in the sense again, when you write something like this,
Speaker 1: you have to think about what does your relationship look
Speaker 1: like with these people after this is out and after
Speaker 1: the public has consumed it and they've had their opinions
Speaker 1: about your life and the people you're writing about. And
Speaker 1: I was very sensitive to that process, to say the least.
Speaker 1: So the one thing she wanted me to remove I
Speaker 1: actually removed it. But what was funny is that she
Speaker 1: o came back later and after having thinking about it
Speaker 1: and talking to some friends of hers that she really trust,
Speaker 1: she said she thought she was wrong. Like she was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, I had a chance to think about it,
Speaker 1: and you didn't have to take that out if you
Speaker 1: didn't want to. But I had already done it, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, well, just thinking about how I
Speaker 1: want our relationship to be afterwards, I took it out,
Speaker 1: and so she was really surprised. And so it was
Speaker 1: an interesting journey for us in our relationship. You know,
Speaker 1: I think my mother is like really comfortable with where
Speaker 1: it is. But certainly there was a lot of tough
Speaker 1: conversations throughout this entire process. M hmmm. And you mentioned
Speaker 1: earlier that you had to do a lot of like
Speaker 1: opening doors that you would rather have left clothes and
Speaker 1: unpacking things. What did your support system look like while
Speaker 1: writing the book. Well, my husband was wonderful throughout the process.
Speaker 1: It wasn't like I would write and then I go
Speaker 1: talk to him about everything that I just you know wrote.
Speaker 1: I think just him supporting me through it was like okay,
Speaker 1: you know, he's like I'm sure it's fine, You're doing
Speaker 1: a good job, just just encouraging me to continue to
Speaker 1: like dig deeper and that the reactions to it would
Speaker 1: be fine. And he knew how important it was for
Speaker 1: me to write this book with a sense of authority
Speaker 1: and transparency, and so, you know, just him just kind
Speaker 1: of holding my hand so to speak throughout the process
Speaker 1: was like, I think he just gave me the reassurance
Speaker 1: that I kind of needed as I was writing this book.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm. So I was drawn in by the first
Speaker 1: sentence of the book. So the book starts with I
Speaker 1: started going to therapy on a dare And so you
Speaker 1: talk about that, and you know, you talk about lots
Speaker 1: of the experiences that may be led to you being
Speaker 1: in therapy. Can you say how therapy has supported your
Speaker 1: journey and even maybe what therapy looks like now as
Speaker 1: you prepare for the launch of the book. It's funny
Speaker 1: you brought that up, because one thing I definitely want
Speaker 1: to do before my book tour starts is make sure
Speaker 1: I have an exception with my therapist, right because this
Speaker 1: will be very different than Yeah, I'm certainly I've been
Speaker 1: interviewed thousands of times, so being interviewed, that is no
Speaker 1: big deal. But I've never really been interviewed about my life.
Speaker 1: Maybe some bits and pieces of my life. But this memoir,
Speaker 1: as you said before, it's intensely personal. So I'm going
Speaker 1: to be asked very personal questions about my life, and
Speaker 1: so I want to make sure that I'm in the
Speaker 1: right mental framework to do that, to answer these questions
Speaker 1: repeatedly over and over, to be asked repeatedly about having
Speaker 1: an abortion and some of the sexual abuse that my
Speaker 1: mother suffered, like having to go over that over and
Speaker 1: over again, and even doing book signings, having people who
Speaker 1: read the book just asking me about that or sharing
Speaker 1: their stories. So I have to make sure that I'm
Speaker 1: in the right mental framework to handle all of that.
Speaker 1: But for me, therapy was very i opening, and I
Speaker 1: guess that's kind of a cliche word to use, because
Speaker 1: I guess for everybody it is. And I remember the
Speaker 1: very first session I had with my therapist, and I
Speaker 1: started going to her in eighteen and our first session,
Speaker 1: she told me something that, like, you know, just kind
Speaker 1: of really hit me all up in the chest. She
Speaker 1: was like, childhood lasts forever, That's what she told me.
Speaker 1: And I was like, Hey, she is so right about this,
Speaker 1: because we're constantly dealing with the impact of our childhood,
Speaker 1: be at the traumas, whatever it may be. You know,
Speaker 1: that's not to say you continue to be the same
Speaker 1: person you were as a child. You obviously do not,
Speaker 1: but it is to say that some of those things
Speaker 1: you experienced they literally last forever, and that you're going
Speaker 1: to be dealing with that. And so in addition to
Speaker 1: be an eye opening, I think what I loved about
Speaker 1: therapy is that it's forced me into a space of vulnerability.
Speaker 1: It's the space I'm most uncomfortable with, and I mean
Speaker 1: most of the memoir is about me on that journey
Speaker 1: of trying to be more vulnerable because it just simply
Speaker 1: was not the way that I was raised. And I
Speaker 1: see the unintended consequences of not being able to embrace
Speaker 1: or live in a space of vulnerability. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think a lot of black women, unfortunately, we get conditioned
Speaker 1: to be out of that space, even though we're not perfect,
Speaker 1: nor are we superheroes, and so we can't always be
Speaker 1: all these things to so many other people and then
Speaker 1: be nothing for ourselves. And so finding that balance and
Speaker 1: being able to kind of appropriately deal with my vulnerability
Speaker 1: issues has been a challenge, but it's been one that
Speaker 1: I've always embraced. One of the things I love about
Speaker 1: being married is that marriage forces you into that space
Speaker 1: all the time. Marriage is a reflection, I think in
Speaker 1: good and bad ways. It is a completely reflection. So
Speaker 1: it exposes you, and so some of the things that
Speaker 1: you don't want to deal with, you are forced to
Speaker 1: deal with them in marriage. If you want to have
Speaker 1: a good marriage, deal with them in order to be
Speaker 1: better for the person that you've committed to. You say
Speaker 1: something that made me think I have always wondered, like,
Speaker 1: is there some kind of after care or is there
Speaker 1: a group of people who like prepare you to release
Speaker 1: a memoir to the public, because I think it's different
Speaker 1: than like a fiction book, right, Like people project all
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff. But you're right, like, I think you
Speaker 1: should be prepared on your book tour for people to
Speaker 1: ask you very personal questions even though you've shared very personally,
Speaker 1: but also for them to identify so much with your
Speaker 1: story and your mom's story and your family story that
Speaker 1: it will also encourage them to share their own stories
Speaker 1: that may be very difficult. Do those kinds of conversations
Speaker 1: happen like cans your Asian or the publishing house had
Speaker 1: you down and say, Okay, here's what to expect. No,
Speaker 1: I don't think they would be probably the candidates for that.
Speaker 1: But what I have done is talked to other authors
Speaker 1: who have written memoirs. And I had a conversation with
Speaker 1: a friend of my Gabrielle Union, and she's released essentially
Speaker 1: to memoirs. Right, We're not gonna need more wine, and
Speaker 1: I'll have another and and it she shares the fact
Speaker 1: that she was sexually assaulted when she was a teenager,
Speaker 1: I believe, And so she talks about the crippling effect
Speaker 1: of that and then the multiple miscarriages that she has.
Speaker 1: So she was telling me when she was on her
Speaker 1: book tour about how mentally it was just really tough
Speaker 1: to deal with the fact that women were constantly coming
Speaker 1: up to her telling her their stories of sexual assault.
Speaker 1: And she was like, it was a lot to deal
Speaker 1: with because like, you don't want to relive the worst
Speaker 1: moment of your life every single day for three weeks,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying, or four weeks, however long
Speaker 1: she was on tour. She did a nationwide tour and
Speaker 1: so just hearing how she handled it, what it was
Speaker 1: like for her coming out of that, her taking a
Speaker 1: break and taking some time to collect herself, it was
Speaker 1: very helpful for me so that I can maybe figure
Speaker 1: out a way to set some boundaries with that. It
Speaker 1: would be quite an interesting mix because you want to
Speaker 1: set the boundaries, but you also have a book to sell,
Speaker 1: so it's like you have to figure out what that
Speaker 1: looks like for you. And so I think as I
Speaker 1: go through the first week of it, or you know,
Speaker 1: the first couple interviews, that I'll be able to have
Speaker 1: a better handle about what kind of space mentally that
Speaker 1: puts me in after doing these interviews, and everybody's not
Speaker 1: going to ask about all the trauma, Like there are
Speaker 1: other things that are in the book that people will
Speaker 1: ask me about. So I'm not going in with the
Speaker 1: expectation that they're just gonna be like entire trauma conversation.
Speaker 1: But I'm just trying to make sure I'm as mentally
Speaker 1: healthy as possible to deal with the after effects of that.
Speaker 1: M hmm. And I think that follow up session with
Speaker 1: your therapist as you prepare for the Yeah, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have one with her before I go on the tour
Speaker 1: and then I'm gonna have one with her when I
Speaker 1: come off the tour, right right, So what do you
Speaker 1: feel like we're the toughest chapters for you to write?
Speaker 1: Do any come to mind? Oh? Yeah. When I was
Speaker 1: interviewing my mother, there were things she told me I
Speaker 1: did not know at all, like about things she experienced
Speaker 1: as much as I was a spectator and a bystander.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately too, when she was really embroiled deeply in her
Speaker 1: drug use, and as much as I saw even through that,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of stuff I clearly did not
Speaker 1: even see or no. So the tougher parts, for one,
Speaker 1: is when she told me the story of her being
Speaker 1: raped in Texas. And I knew she was raped in Texas,
Speaker 1: and I've known that, you know, my whole life. I
Speaker 1: never got the breakdown of everything that happened, and so
Speaker 1: for her to go into detail about how she was kidnapped,
Speaker 1: essentially because she was taken outside of her apartment by
Speaker 1: what the police believed to be a serial rapist in
Speaker 1: the area. So having her go through that, and it
Speaker 1: was probably the first time in a while that she
Speaker 1: had probably talked about it in such detail, to the
Speaker 1: point to where she could remember certain smells and certain
Speaker 1: feelings and just things like I didn't know that she
Speaker 1: was given a morning after pill when she got the
Speaker 1: kid at the hospital, So these little details were tough
Speaker 1: for me to here, even though I knew this is
Speaker 1: what happened to her. Another story she told me that's
Speaker 1: in the book is about her basically hiding out in
Speaker 1: a rat infested trap house because she had come there
Speaker 1: looking for drugs. And I never even knew that story,
Speaker 1: so I had no idea. You know, I didn't know
Speaker 1: that her drug use actually started when she was like
Speaker 1: ten or eleven years old, so I didn't know that either.
Speaker 1: So those are tough chapters and moments to write about,
Speaker 1: and because when I'm sending her back to a place
Speaker 1: that she, you know, as is very distant from because
Speaker 1: my mother has been drug free for decades now, so
Speaker 1: it was trying like to hear about that and to
Speaker 1: understand just how much my mother had been through. And
Speaker 1: I've always known she's been through a lot, but this
Speaker 1: like really put it into very distinct detail, like what
Speaker 1: she had actually been through. So, you know, I guess
Speaker 1: when you're somebody's child, regardless of your age, it's inherently
Speaker 1: selfish existence to be a child, because everything is about you.
Speaker 1: Write about how you're taking care of how you're doing,
Speaker 1: and so your parents focused on you once they have you,
Speaker 1: like the rest of your life, your parents are somewhat
Speaker 1: focused on you, and so what happens is that you
Speaker 1: don't learn nearly enough about them as you should. And
Speaker 1: so as part of this memoir writing process, I've told
Speaker 1: a lot of my friends, I was like, listen, while
Speaker 1: your parents are still here, asked them every single question
Speaker 1: that you can, because as I was writing this, as
Speaker 1: close as me and my grandmother were, there was so
Speaker 1: many questions I didn't ask her that I had as
Speaker 1: I was writing, and I was like, I wish you
Speaker 1: were still alive, so I can ask her some of
Speaker 1: these things, not necessarily for this book, but just to
Speaker 1: learn more about her early life and to put together
Speaker 1: the pieces of like how she came to be the
Speaker 1: person that she was. So yeah, there was a lot of,
Speaker 1: you know, challenging moments. There's also kind of a lot
Speaker 1: of funny moments to relive and write about it as well.
Speaker 1: But probably the more challenging parts were writing about my
Speaker 1: mother's trauma. MM hmm. Yeah. More from my conversation with
Speaker 1: Jamal after the break. So what was it like to
Speaker 1: look back over your career as you were writing this book?
Speaker 1: I mean, you still have a lot of career, I think, Levet,
Speaker 1: but there's been a lot of career already. So what
Speaker 1: was it like to look back over there to prepare
Speaker 1: for the book? Mostly? I just realized how old I am.
Speaker 1: I was just like, kind of old. I've been doing
Speaker 1: this for so long. It dawned on me as I
Speaker 1: was writing that I've been a paid journalist. It's I
Speaker 1: was sixteen years old, okay, so that is spanning thirty years,
Speaker 1: And that in itself is just a tremendous blessing because
Speaker 1: a lot of people, when they identify what their life's
Speaker 1: work is and identify their passion, they don't necessarily get
Speaker 1: paid to do it right away. I got paid to
Speaker 1: be a journalist right away when I started working for
Speaker 1: the local paper in Detroit. That's what I was paid
Speaker 1: to do. And to realize too that I haven't had
Speaker 1: that many jobs outside of journalism, maybe like two, and
Speaker 1: those are part time, just kind of seasonal things that
Speaker 1: I was doing. That nothing on any kind of a
Speaker 1: full time basis. But every job I've had as a
Speaker 1: professional has been journalism related, and it just kind of
Speaker 1: put me in the space of gratitude of understanding like
Speaker 1: just how rare that is. And my husband tells me
Speaker 1: this all the time, is that you know, I have
Speaker 1: the privilege of identifying early what I wanted to do,
Speaker 1: and also the privilege of always being paid to do
Speaker 1: that thing that I love to do, because, as he
Speaker 1: reminds me, like so many people have jobs they don't
Speaker 1: really like or are not in passionate professions. Really, as
Speaker 1: I recounted the different stages in my career in in
Speaker 1: the memoir, it kind of brought that home even further, like, Wow,
Speaker 1: I'm truly blessed to being able to have done this
Speaker 1: for thirty years. M hmmm. Yeah. A part of the
Speaker 1: story that a lot of people will probably be most
Speaker 1: familiar with was your time at ESPN. So can you
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about how your career they're
Speaker 1: kind of wrapped up and what lessons you've learned from
Speaker 1: that experience. Well, you know, ESPN, I was there twelve years.
Speaker 1: It's the longest job I've ever had. It's certainly the
Speaker 1: best job I ever had. The last couple of years
Speaker 1: were rocky, and I write about them very transparently in
Speaker 1: this book, particularly after the tweet that changed my life
Speaker 1: happened with Donald Trump and what that experience was like.
Speaker 1: But one thing that ESPN taught me, or among the
Speaker 1: many things, because it's more than just one thing, I
Speaker 1: learned a lot. I mean, the journalist that I was
Speaker 1: when I got to ESPN was not the journalists who
Speaker 1: I became aim when I left. It was a much
Speaker 1: better journalist, Like I was so much more well rounded.
Speaker 1: I learned so many different mediums at ESPN, like it
Speaker 1: was a true I wouldn't necessarily call it a training ground.
Speaker 1: It was more like a very intense boot camp where
Speaker 1: you came out of it and you slimmed out about
Speaker 1: twenty pounds and you're in the best shape of your life.
Speaker 1: That's how I felt leaving ESPN, and I think it
Speaker 1: taught me about my value, my worth, also about how
Speaker 1: the next phase of my career. It really put the
Speaker 1: battery in my battery pack to make sure the next
Speaker 1: phase of my career was about ownership and autonomy. And
Speaker 1: while ESPN was so great for my career and a
Speaker 1: number of ways, the one downside about being there is
Speaker 1: that you are property of ESPN essentially, like there's not
Speaker 1: a whole lot you can do outside of being at ESPN.
Speaker 1: And I realized just how much my professional freedom meant
Speaker 1: to me being there, And once I left there, I
Speaker 1: just kind of mentally decided, like, I'm never going to
Speaker 1: be in that space again where I'm beholden to one
Speaker 1: entity and do not have the freedom to do other
Speaker 1: things that I feel like would amplify you know, who
Speaker 1: I am, or amplify my brand. So it definitely taught
Speaker 1: me the value of that, and also that I think
Speaker 1: you know so much in your career you're striving for stability,
Speaker 1: and stability is great, particularly financial stability is great, right,
Speaker 1: But I think now like I'm okay that if I
Speaker 1: get a project or a job that just last a
Speaker 1: couple of months, as long as I'm fulfilled in doing that.
Speaker 1: And you know a lot of times we professionally, we
Speaker 1: chase contracts for the length of time, and I'm learning
Speaker 1: the the shorter the contract, the better, to be honest,
Speaker 1: So it's just kind of switched up my mentality coming
Speaker 1: from a more traditional mindset like oh, gotta work for
Speaker 1: one network or one media outlet and that's it. But
Speaker 1: now I'm just like, I'm a higher gun, I'm a
Speaker 1: mercenario here, like I work for thirty differ networks. At
Speaker 1: the same time, I don't care. It's like cut the check.
Speaker 1: So I think, yeah, just understanding the value of my freedom.
Speaker 1: It really brought that home. I mean, once I left
Speaker 1: ESPN for the first time in my professional career, I
Speaker 1: was able to pick where I wanted to live. And
Speaker 1: that was like a crazy, exhilarating feeling for me. You know,
Speaker 1: me and my husband we moved to Los Angeles because
Speaker 1: you know, we were able to sit down and say, Okay,
Speaker 1: personally and professionally, where's the best place we want to be?
Speaker 1: All right? Who doesn't have no, they're in the conversation
Speaker 1: if they don't have so so it felt really good
Speaker 1: to feel more in control of my life once I
Speaker 1: left ESPN. You know, had there been inklings of that
Speaker 1: for you even before, like the tweet that changed everything?
Speaker 1: Like has you kind of been feeling restless and like
Speaker 1: you wanted to establish yourself as more of your own
Speaker 1: brand even before then? Oh yeah. But the funny thing
Speaker 1: is what I thought about doing was not really about
Speaker 1: my own brand. It was more or less about me
Speaker 1: separating from something that I didn't love. The last shot
Speaker 1: I had at ESPN was as SportsCenter anchor. It was
Speaker 1: the worst job that I had ESPN. I knew within
Speaker 1: a couple of months after we took that job. I
Speaker 1: was like, this ain't for me. I knew it. I
Speaker 1: told my co host at the time, Michael Smith, a
Speaker 1: dear friend of mine. I said, Mike, I'm gonna make
Speaker 1: it to the end of this contract, and that's gonna
Speaker 1: be it for Sports Center for me. The problem was,
Speaker 1: we had at that point three more years of me,
Speaker 1: so that was gonna be a long wait, and it
Speaker 1: was just like, man, how am I gonna get through this?
Speaker 1: And of course you hope that maybe things will improve,
Speaker 1: but there was a very significant change in leadership that
Speaker 1: happened before the Trump thing' even happened. So I was
Speaker 1: already in the thought process of I'm not very fulfilled
Speaker 1: or happy doing this and wondering what the best strategy
Speaker 1: was to leave. And so I didn't know if leaving
Speaker 1: meant just leaving Sports Center and doing something else at ESPN,
Speaker 1: or if leaving meant just leaving ESPN altogether. So before
Speaker 1: the tweet, those were very dominant thoughts in my mind
Speaker 1: about something that makes me feel much more fulfilled than
Speaker 1: this does. In the book, when you're talking about talking
Speaker 1: to your mom about leaving ESPN, you talked about her
Speaker 1: describing you as angry and you're feeling uncomfortable with that label.
Speaker 1: Can you talk about how your relationship to anger has
Speaker 1: changed since then? If it has, well, you know what,
Speaker 1: anybody who knows they would never describe me as angry,
Speaker 1: And so I was kind of thrown off with my
Speaker 1: mother said that. But I think, and we do this
Speaker 1: a lot of times with people, is that sometimes people
Speaker 1: confuse anger and passion. I'm passionate about what I do
Speaker 1: and who I am and defending myself. But I'm not angry,
Speaker 1: just not. I'm like, I'm not. I don't wake up
Speaker 1: mad at the world with my fist raised in the
Speaker 1: air like that's not even if it really in my personality. Yes,
Speaker 1: there are things that make me angry, as they should. Yes,
Speaker 1: in justice makes me angry, Racism makes me angry. A
Speaker 1: lot of things that we face as a society make
Speaker 1: me angry when I see those things. But I try
Speaker 1: to approach what I do from a sspect of a
Speaker 1: passionate determination, not through anger. And so when I started
Speaker 1: therapy and after my mother accused me of being angry,
Speaker 1: I think some of that and you know her and
Speaker 1: I've spent a lot of time for years unpacking this
Speaker 1: is that there's a part of me that always feels
Speaker 1: like my mother feels like I haven't forgiven her for
Speaker 1: the things that happened in my childhood that I was
Speaker 1: able to endure and the vote of forgiveness left for
Speaker 1: me a long time ago, like I've forgiven her years ago,
Speaker 1: like a loone time ago. And so if I give
Speaker 1: her pushback about some of the things that she says now,
Speaker 1: then I'm angry, And I'm like, no, I'm not angry,
Speaker 1: I just don't agree with you. Like there's a there's
Speaker 1: a difference for anybody there who has any kind of
Speaker 1: relationship with your mother, you know that, Like, especially if
Speaker 1: they're not accustomed to that pushback, they don't really like that,
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So I think some of
Speaker 1: that It comes from that place, and I needed her
Speaker 1: to understand that this is not anything rooted in angerous
Speaker 1: and rooted in the fact that I disagree and I'm
Speaker 1: going to push back on you a little bit. Mm hmmm.
Speaker 1: Have you and mom done any therapy together? No, but
Speaker 1: we should And I was just like, I better even saying,
Speaker 1: try to be funny, like we have surfaced the idea.
Speaker 1: I think my mother would definitely be open to it.
Speaker 1: I certainly would, So maybe after this book tour, that's
Speaker 1: something we need to get to quickly. More From my
Speaker 1: conversation with Jamal after the break, Yeah, I mean, when
Speaker 1: I hear you say stuff like you know she thinks
Speaker 1: I haven't forgiven her, I'm thinking like, oh, a conversation
Speaker 1: with the therapist might be a great place to have
Speaker 1: some of those conversations for you to maybe even hear
Speaker 1: more about what she's still thinking that may not even
Speaker 1: be true. Yeah, No, I mean I think you're a
Speaker 1: hundred percent right, And it's like, I want to definitely
Speaker 1: do that because I think it would be very helpful
Speaker 1: for our relationship and one thing I definitely thought about
Speaker 1: on this memoir journey because there's gonna be times where
Speaker 1: we're actually interviewed together, which has never really happened. So
Speaker 1: how we do that It's going to be very fascinating
Speaker 1: because I'm just really curious and as I told my mother,
Speaker 1: I was like, be as honest as you want to be,
Speaker 1: or set your own boundaries. Like I'm not here to
Speaker 1: tell you how to conduct yourself at all. It's like,
Speaker 1: I think you have your own story. You have a
Speaker 1: right to tell it in your way and from your perspective,
Speaker 1: and do that. This book is just my perspective, but
Speaker 1: you have your own. You certainly will offer that. I
Speaker 1: think people will really be inspired by because my mother
Speaker 1: has an incredible testimony, and so I think as this
Speaker 1: memoir gets out there, I think she'll see just how
Speaker 1: inspiring she can be to people. But yeah, I completely
Speaker 1: agree with you. It's like we we should definitely go
Speaker 1: to some therapy. I know other friends who are going
Speaker 1: to therapy with their moms. I can't say it's turned
Speaker 1: out well, but I'm not. But at least you'll win.
Speaker 1: That's right. You just try and see, you know, see
Speaker 1: what how much you never know? It feels like there
Speaker 1: is this very clear thread throughout the book. As you're
Speaker 1: talking about your column on the Celtics and the sexual
Speaker 1: harassment with the female kicker Katie Nida and the Trump tweets,
Speaker 1: like it is very clear that there is a use
Speaker 1: of your voice with like confidence in conviction. I want
Speaker 1: to hear how your podcast and how starting and launching
Speaker 1: your own podcasts and network has really helped you to
Speaker 1: kind of hone your voice as a journalist. Once I
Speaker 1: left ESPN, one thing I wanted to get back to
Speaker 1: doing is having conversations with people. And although you do
Speaker 1: have them when you're in the midst of a daily
Speaker 1: talk show, there are five six minute conversations tops, so
Speaker 1: very short. You don't get to unpack some things, or
Speaker 1: you don't get the vulnerability, you don't sometimes get the
Speaker 1: honesty in a five minute interview, And so I wanted
Speaker 1: to go back to some of the original reasons that
Speaker 1: I became a journalist in the first place, and that
Speaker 1: was to talk to people and to help them share
Speaker 1: their stories. Especially with the time that we're in now,
Speaker 1: it's important that we have some like really critical conversations.
Speaker 1: So the podcasting medium was very conducive to that. And
Speaker 1: as my own podcast launched and had its success, when
Speaker 1: happened and obviously in this country we're having a lot
Speaker 1: more conversations about racism, and just had we reached that
Speaker 1: watershed moment where we were finally ready and willing to
Speaker 1: do the hard work to do something about it. It
Speaker 1: was a perfect time to approach Spotify about creating a
Speaker 1: podcast network for black women that was black women lad.
Speaker 1: That second part of that is very important, and the
Speaker 1: reason I thought that now was the time to do
Speaker 1: it is because frankly, corporations seemed more interested in actually
Speaker 1: financially supporting black content creators and just looking around and
Speaker 1: seeing all the dynamic things black women were doing. That part,
Speaker 1: of course, is very inspiring. You know, you have black
Speaker 1: women saving Wakonda, got Stacy Abrams out here trying save democracy,
Speaker 1: You've got Combla Harris trying to say the country. I mean, like,
Speaker 1: all of this is happening, and black black women were
Speaker 1: really seizing and stepping into their power. However, that to
Speaker 1: me was such an incomplete story about who we were. Yes,
Speaker 1: black women are dynamic, successful overachievers, but that's not all
Speaker 1: we are. And also, our function in society is not
Speaker 1: to save everybody. Sometimes the way we can save everybody
Speaker 1: is about saving us saving ourselves, right, And I'm thinking, like,
Speaker 1: if all these black women are out here saving everyone else,
Speaker 1: who is saving us? And so I wanted to create
Speaker 1: a network that represented the full picture of who Black
Speaker 1: women are, how Black women worship, how Black women laugh,
Speaker 1: how Black women love, how Black women relate to their families.
Speaker 1: So there were buckets As I was thinking about a
Speaker 1: podcast network that I wanted to try to feel dynamic
Speaker 1: black women creators and just give us the subject matter
Speaker 1: that I think we've really been looking for that explore
Speaker 1: us in more fullness. So I'm really excited about the network.
Speaker 1: Our first two shows launched the first week of November,
Speaker 1: one of which is called Sanctified, which I mentioned like
Speaker 1: one of the things I wanted to look at is
Speaker 1: how Black women are worshiping today, and Sanctified as a
Speaker 1: podcast with Levon Briggs. As she describes, I told her,
Speaker 1: I thought this description was so cool. A sex positive
Speaker 1: woman is preacher and I love that description. And also
Speaker 1: debor Joy Windings, and you know any time the Last
Speaker 1: Night Windings, you know exactly what family that is from
Speaker 1: one of the legacy families in gospel, and you know
Speaker 1: they are going to really get into some taboo topics
Speaker 1: that are talked about both in the pulpit and outside
Speaker 1: of church, like talking about purity culture in churches and
Speaker 1: marriage and sexuality and all these other really taboo topics
Speaker 1: when it comes to how we discuss things within a
Speaker 1: Christian religious framework. So I'm really excited about that one.
Speaker 1: And then another podcast we have launching with these two
Speaker 1: dynamic hosts of Brittany and Germany. It's called Black Girl Pravado,
Speaker 1: and they are an existing podcast that we license exclusively
Speaker 1: now to Spotify, and they're in the wellness space, but
Speaker 1: this is not your normal sort of wellness space in
Speaker 1: the sense like you have your sins, you have your
Speaker 1: own that they are coming straight from the hip pocket
Speaker 1: and talking about self care in a way that I
Speaker 1: think is super relatable to a lot of women, particularly
Speaker 1: young women, millennials and sillennials, because they stooped just straight
Speaker 1: from the straight from the hip for them listening to
Speaker 1: Little Kim's probably self care. So they they're very they're
Speaker 1: very funny, they're very earnest, genuine, authentic, and just bold
Speaker 1: and I love them both. So both these podcasts, I'm
Speaker 1: so proud that these are initial offerings. So I'm really
Speaker 1: excited about the possibilities of where this network could be
Speaker 1: because if I get it to where I envisioned it
Speaker 1: when I first came to Spotify, this will easily be
Speaker 1: the biggest thing I've ever accomplished in my career. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you for sharing that. So, what
Speaker 1: advice would you give to young journalists, you know, early
Speaker 1: career journalists who may be struggling and want to speak
Speaker 1: out about injustices, but are worried about pushback from their employers. Well,
Speaker 1: I think you have to let the journalism be your activism,
Speaker 1: focus on the craft, on telling good stories, stories that
Speaker 1: you feel like illuminate what are very pervasive issues in
Speaker 1: a different way. We know injustice is everywhere, but sometimes
Speaker 1: it's the way you tell a story that gets people
Speaker 1: to understand the gravity of something happening. I think about
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, Wesley Lowry, who is a great writer,
Speaker 1: and he was one of the writers during Ferguson. He
Speaker 1: got arrested, he was right on the scene, but he
Speaker 1: created this whole lane of looking into all these police
Speaker 1: killings of black people, and you know, created a database.
Speaker 1: He didn't really good investigative work, and it all stems
Speaker 1: from him understanding that, you know, when black people are
Speaker 1: pulled over by the police, our life is at risk
Speaker 1: pretty much, I mean every single time. And from there,
Speaker 1: doing the reporting to support what was clearly a very
Speaker 1: deep societal problem. So if you're a journalist who is
Speaker 1: in the early stages of your career, you don't have
Speaker 1: to go into your boss is just spouting opinions. Give
Speaker 1: them a story that they can get behind that illuminates
Speaker 1: the issue that you feel like needs to be discussed,
Speaker 1: being police brutality, be it housing discrimination, whatever the topic is,
Speaker 1: find a story, put a face to it that will
Speaker 1: get people to maybe buy into an issue in a
Speaker 1: different way. M hmm. Such a good information. I really
Speaker 1: appreciate you and Wesley's work is incredible, So I think
Speaker 1: that's a great example to give people. So as we
Speaker 1: wrap up, can you say little bit about what you're
Speaker 1: hoping people will take away from uphill? What are you
Speaker 1: wanting people to leave with? Well, it's a few things,
Speaker 1: but I think mostly you know, I think, if anything,
Speaker 1: when you read my memir, you see the numerous challenges
Speaker 1: I faced, and then you see where I am now.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people thought I was born on
Speaker 1: SPI and I was like, no, I wasn't. It's a
Speaker 1: whole life that happened before I ever got to ESPN.
Speaker 1: But they see sometimes the completed team photo, but they
Speaker 1: have no idea like what's going on behind that photo.
Speaker 1: I hope do anything that people will be inspired to
Speaker 1: overcome whatever is the challenge in their life and understanding
Speaker 1: that however you grew up, what you did or what
Speaker 1: you didn't come from, is not a predictor of your future.
Speaker 1: You are able to control, even in the dire circumstances,
Speaker 1: a lot more than you think that you can. And
Speaker 1: so I hope it inspires people to be driven to
Speaker 1: be purposeful and whatever it is that they pursue, because
Speaker 1: that's certainly something that I have been able to lean
Speaker 1: on and my whole career, like my whole life, I
Speaker 1: should say, like, I don't know where my life would
Speaker 1: be if I didn't pursue journalism the way that I did,
Speaker 1: with such a single minded focused and passion and knowing
Speaker 1: that nothing was good to stop me from doing this.
Speaker 1: And so I have to think it's kind of funny
Speaker 1: because we hear stories from you know, entertainers or whatever,
Speaker 1: how they talk about like that. You know, I sung
Speaker 1: because I was trying to get about a poverty. Well,
Speaker 1: I wrote my way out of property, you know, I
Speaker 1: journalism my way if I can make up a word.
Speaker 1: I journalism my way upout poverty. I think that what
Speaker 1: you should also take away is that if you're passionate
Speaker 1: about something, you will be the best at it. You
Speaker 1: will make money. You know, when I was coming out
Speaker 1: of school, out of college, journalists were making nineteen thousand
Speaker 1: dollars a year. That was an average stary right my
Speaker 1: first year and my first job out of college, I
Speaker 1: made twenty two. I was already above the game, right,
Speaker 1: And a lot of kids and I cautioned them against this.
Speaker 1: They picked careers based off how much money they make.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying money it shouldn't be a factor, yes,
Speaker 1: but if you pick it based off, hey, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: be an engineer because they make a lot of money,
Speaker 1: will never sustain you. You'll be out of engineering and
Speaker 1: within a couple of years because it won't be enough
Speaker 1: to keep you in it. And so if you just
Speaker 1: pursue the things you love to do those things you love,
Speaker 1: you will make the money. The money, the success you
Speaker 1: want will all come because your love will be able
Speaker 1: to sustain you during those challenging times in your career,
Speaker 1: and it will also push and drive you to take
Speaker 1: certain risks and to bet on yourself and those kind
Speaker 1: of things. You know, I love this profession now just
Speaker 1: as much as I did when I was making thirty
Speaker 1: dollars a story in college. So to me, there's no difference.
Speaker 1: And so if you can find something that gives you
Speaker 1: that amount of like joy and passion, that's the thing
Speaker 1: you do, and that's the thing that you commit to
Speaker 1: and focus on and don't let people stop you from
Speaker 1: achieving and doing your best. M great advice, I thank
Speaker 1: you for sharing it. So where can we stay connected
Speaker 1: with you? Jamal? What's your website as well as any
Speaker 1: social media handles you'd like this year? Well, my social
Speaker 1: media handles are all the same, just Jamalel, so you
Speaker 1: can certainly keep track of me there on by the network,
Speaker 1: we have a website as well, so if people want
Speaker 1: to go and check it out to find out about
Speaker 1: the show's launching, or even if they have podcasts submissions themselves.
Speaker 1: We have people that have submitted original podcast ideas that
Speaker 1: we take a look at so that it doesn't just
Speaker 1: go to somebody's email box never to be seen again.
Speaker 1: We actually do read them, and so we're always in
Speaker 1: the market for black women podcasters. Who feel like they
Speaker 1: have something to say, feel like they can approach things,
Speaker 1: you know, from a nuanced perspective that they feel like
Speaker 1: we'll really add something to the conversation that surrounds being
Speaker 1: a black woman in America. So yes, so they can certainly,
Speaker 1: you know, find me there as well. And most importantly,
Speaker 1: go buy this book because I've tried to make a
Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller list. I'm not what you gonna
Speaker 1: hold you up right, So you could get this book
Speaker 1: wherever books are sold pre ordered, get it at the
Speaker 1: bars and Noble and the airport. I don't care. Just
Speaker 1: go by this book and to borrow something that I
Speaker 1: saw Oprah does. When she buys a book, she buys
Speaker 1: it for herself and for Gail so they could discuss it.
Speaker 1: So do that by for yourself and a friend so
Speaker 1: you can talk about it. Great break tips there, and
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing with us today, Jamail.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Thank you for having me. I'm so
Speaker 1: glad Jamil was able to share with us today. To
Speaker 1: learn more about her and to grab your copy of Upheal,
Speaker 1: visit the show notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot
Speaker 1: Com slash Session to eight one and don't forget to
Speaker 1: text two of your girls and tell them to check
Speaker 1: out the episode right now. If you're looking for a
Speaker 1: therapist in your area, check out our therapist directory at
Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash directory. And if
Speaker 1: you want to continue digging into this topic or just
Speaker 1: be in community with other sisters, come on over and
Speaker 1: join us in the Sister Circle. It's our cozy corner
Speaker 1: of the Internet designed just for black women. You can
Speaker 1: join us at community dot Therapy for Black Girls dot com.
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Frida Lucas and Alice Ellis
Speaker 1: and editing was done by Dennis and Bradford. Thank you
Speaker 1: all so much for joining me a in this week.
Speaker 1: I look forward to continue in this conversation with you
Speaker 1: all real soon. Take it care