Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production I heart Radio.
Speaker 1: You're sitting atop the legendary group. I'm the CEO. Which
Speaker 1: of the jobs you've had best prepared you for this job?
Speaker 1: Probably in shoveling Manua when I was when I was
Speaker 1: twelve years old, I searched you well for a lot
Speaker 1: of jobs. It has I mean, I'm only how being sarcastic.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you've got to get in These
Speaker 1: are not glamorous jobs, at least they shouldn't be. If
Speaker 1: you're running a company like this and you feel like
Speaker 1: your job is glamorous, then you're probably not doing the
Speaker 1: right things. I love rolling my sleeves up, getting in
Speaker 1: there and doing the hard things, and sometimes that is
Speaker 1: akin to shoveling. But that's just what you've got to do.
Speaker 1: I'm Bob Pittman, and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories
Speaker 1: from the Frontiers and Marketing. We explore the analytical and
Speaker 1: creative side of marketing, and our guests covered the spectrum,
Speaker 1: from anyone who uses or touches marketing to people who
Speaker 1: claim it in their job title. Today's guest is Tim Castree,
Speaker 1: who has a fascinating story and actually split his career
Speaker 1: between the US and his native Australia. He'll hear that
Speaker 1: accent in a minute. Tim is the relatively new North
Speaker 1: America CEO of Group M, the WPP parent company that
Speaker 1: owns and operates some of the best known names in advertising,
Speaker 1: mind Share of Media com, WaveMaker, Essence, and Saxas. Tim
Speaker 1: was born in Melbourne, Australia, traded shoveling manure for riding
Speaker 1: lessons at age twelve. Is that right? That's probably the
Speaker 1: first indication of his incredible deal making skills. He did
Speaker 1: not go to college. Insteady started as an advertising cadet,
Speaker 1: whatever the hell that is, and we're gonna explore that soon.
Speaker 1: He went on to an amazing career in advertising that
Speaker 1: had him ping ponging between the US and Australia across
Speaker 1: a wide range of jobs and agencies. CEO LEO Bernetta
Speaker 1: and Sydney from George Patterson Partners, CEO of Media Vest
Speaker 1: in the US, Managing director of Video Bology, CEO of
Speaker 1: m E, c CEO of wave Runner, all that, and
Speaker 1: he's only what years old? Three? What a career And
Speaker 1: we want to dig into and I'm dying to know
Speaker 1: about that Advertising cadet deal. But first we want to
Speaker 1: get you in sixties seconds, So just give us the
Speaker 1: first thing that comes to your mind. Cats or dogs, dogs,
Speaker 1: hands down, puzzles or board games, puzzles, Instagram or Twitter Instagram,
Speaker 1: kangaroos or koalas, oceans or lakes, oceans New York or Sydney,
Speaker 1: New York, Melbourne or Sydney Melbourne. Sunrise or sunsets from sunrise.
Speaker 1: Libraries are museums, u museums. Riding horses are doing yoga. Yreka. Now,
Speaker 1: smartest person you know g I worked with this guy
Speaker 1: and Evan Handling had group M. I think he got
Speaker 1: a six hundred and he now he's at your strategy office.
Speaker 1: It sounds like the whey he got for the chief strategy.
Speaker 1: Childhood hero Batman, first job delivering newspapers. Craziest thing you
Speaker 1: did for love, Craziest thing I did for love? Oh boy,
Speaker 1: what have I done for love? I've done a lot
Speaker 1: for love. I don't think they're crazy, They're mostly desperate.
Speaker 1: I think more than crazy. Okay, we'll give you a
Speaker 1: passold that historical idle. Probably jesus proudest career achievement, getting
Speaker 1: my first job proudest personal achievement choosing my wife quote
Speaker 1: to live by Life's too short. Worst fashion trend you've
Speaker 1: participated in, Oh, facid washed jeans were pretty tragic. They're
Speaker 1: coming back. I know they're coming back. Hang on to
Speaker 1: You'll get to make our own mistakes, my generation to
Speaker 1: the next. What would be the title of your memoir? Fuldham? Okay,
Speaker 1: let's jump into it. You had decided on a career
Speaker 1: in advertising it as I understand it, age fifteen, you
Speaker 1: did a paper or project in school and that's such
Speaker 1: on this path. What on earth was that project? It
Speaker 1: was a one day event where they brought in three
Speaker 1: or four business leaders. They organized a competition where we
Speaker 1: had to launch a business. We got put into teams
Speaker 1: and I was the leader of our team. We decided
Speaker 1: we were going to import these T shirts from Hong Kong.
Speaker 1: We had to source them and market them in our
Speaker 1: little high school business plan, and I just loved it.
Speaker 1: One of those business leaders that was in he worked
Speaker 1: for Done in Bradstreet and he said come in and
Speaker 1: I'll show you around now. So I remember taking the
Speaker 1: train into Melbourne. There's an hour away on the train,
Speaker 1: and I spent a day with him, and I got
Speaker 1: home that night and said to my mom, I'm going
Speaker 1: to work in marketing or advertising, and it just it's stuck. Well,
Speaker 1: it's a great story. So you started as the advertising cadet.
Speaker 1: What is an advertising cadet? I think I was the
Speaker 1: first and only ever advertising cadet. This wasn't a long
Speaker 1: line of cadet ships, but it was basically a way
Speaker 1: to give a break to a high school kid who
Speaker 1: was in a family situation where he couldn't afford to
Speaker 1: go to college. Moment said, look, you need to go
Speaker 1: to work for a few years. That's what the family needs.
Speaker 1: So I was working in a supermarket after school. I
Speaker 1: thought the girl who worked in the Delhi was kind
Speaker 1: of cute, and I was showing off to her juggling
Speaker 1: watermelons in the supermarket. Two watermelons, not free, and this
Speaker 1: area manager came around and she said, what the hell
Speaker 1: are you doing? And get back to work, And and
Speaker 1: about an hour later, I was on my lunch break
Speaker 1: and she came and talked to me and she said,
Speaker 1: I was sorry, I'm so hard on you. I said, no,
Speaker 1: no problem, I shouldn't have been juggling watermelons. And we
Speaker 1: got talking and we hit it off. Her name was
Speaker 1: Margaret Kim, and she said, well, you're about to graduate
Speaker 1: high school. What are you doing? I said, I don't know,
Speaker 1: and I explained my situation how I needed to go
Speaker 1: out and work, and she said, what do you want
Speaker 1: to do? I said, I really want to work in
Speaker 1: marketing and advertising, and she said, well, you know, we
Speaker 1: have an advertising department here at Safe Way. Why don't
Speaker 1: I make some phone calls and see if there's anything
Speaker 1: they could do for you? Lo and behold. He called
Speaker 1: me back three days later and said, you know what,
Speaker 1: They've just decided to launch this first ever cadet ship program,
Speaker 1: and why don't you apply for that and I'll see
Speaker 1: if I can help you. And sure enough, I applied
Speaker 1: and I was given this cadet ship, which was basically
Speaker 1: working in the internal advertising department of Safeway Supermarkets and
Speaker 1: loved it. About a year into it, the internal advertising
Speaker 1: department got absorbed into Leo Barnett, So I moved from
Speaker 1: Safeway into Leo Barnett about a year after I started,
Speaker 1: which is a whole other story. And you want to
Speaker 1: hear that, Yes, I do. I do want to hear that.
Speaker 1: So I was in this cadet ship and they were
Speaker 1: waiting to give the contract to Leobennett. A bunch of
Speaker 1: folks they took into the agency, A bunch they let
Speaker 1: go and moved into other departments, and I was the
Speaker 1: last person they hadn't resolved. My story is basically a
Speaker 1: long litany of people who gave me breaks. And there
Speaker 1: was a guy who ran advertising. His name was John Simon,
Speaker 1: and John was saying to the CEO of Leobennett, you've
Speaker 1: got to take this guy to him. He's fantastic. He's
Speaker 1: a young guy. And they said, look, we just we
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with the advertising cadet and
Speaker 1: so we don't need him. John was adamant about it,
Speaker 1: and they went back and forth on this for weeks
Speaker 1: while they were negotiating the contract. We got to the
Speaker 1: final day where John was about to sign the contract
Speaker 1: to give them the account. It was still unresolved, and
Speaker 1: he said, look, I'm not sign until you give him
Speaker 1: a job. And he held the pen and he sat
Speaker 1: and waited. Took him about ninety seconds after that, I said, fine, fine,
Speaker 1: we'll give the kid a job. And then he signed
Speaker 1: the contract. And that's how I was what was their
Speaker 1: j Well, they basically brought me in a similar capacity
Speaker 1: in Leo Bannett. So they said, we'll take him on
Speaker 1: for two years and we'll move him around to all
Speaker 1: the various departments from production to creative to account management
Speaker 1: and media. They didn't have programs like that at the time.
Speaker 1: But my boss there was still of my best friends
Speaker 1: to this day, a woman named Melinda Gertz. She went
Speaker 1: to Northwestern and they've transferred to the Melbourne office of
Speaker 1: Leo Burnett from the Chicago office. Melinda just said, well,
Speaker 1: I'll take him and I'll redesign what we used to
Speaker 1: do at Leo Benett and Chicago. I'll just make a
Speaker 1: little training program for one and so that was where
Speaker 1: they designed this kind of program to put me around
Speaker 1: in each of the departments and learned the ropes of advertising. Well,
Speaker 1: you did really well, So you must have impressed somebody.
Speaker 1: What did you do in that advertising codat job that
Speaker 1: so impressed them that you began to move up in
Speaker 1: the world. I had a real work ethic. When you
Speaker 1: grow up in a working poor family. I mean a
Speaker 1: lot of people who have that experience, they burn, you know,
Speaker 1: they really burn with ambition and a drive, and I
Speaker 1: had that as well. You know, a lot of fuel
Speaker 1: from my childhood circumstances really pushed me forward. So I'd
Speaker 1: say it was a real combination of work ethic God
Speaker 1: gifted me with a good brain, the gray matters always
Speaker 1: worked pretty well, and also real willingness to take risks
Speaker 1: and put myself out there. I'd be constantly making proposals
Speaker 1: and recommendations that were far beyond my pay grade, far
Speaker 1: beyond what I knew. But I really tried hard to
Speaker 1: make a difference and to have an impact. And I
Speaker 1: think they noticed that. Did growing up in those circumstances
Speaker 1: really drive you into your success? Absolutely did for the
Speaker 1: first ten or fifteen years of my career, and also
Speaker 1: because I hadn't gone to university, a ton of insecurity
Speaker 1: that came with it. If you'd asked a lot of
Speaker 1: people who knew me at that time, if I was
Speaker 1: in any way an insecure person, they would be stunned
Speaker 1: to learn how deeply insecure I was. You skip college
Speaker 1: that bought you four years earlier starting your career. Did
Speaker 1: that turn out to be a competitive advantage to be
Speaker 1: there before your peers were there? It turned out to
Speaker 1: be an advantage in the end. Yes, I think it
Speaker 1: wouldn't happen today. I graduated high school and the idea
Speaker 1: that you would get into a white college job without
Speaker 1: university was already a pretty far fetched idea. Because Australia
Speaker 1: is such a small market. Melbourne was such a small market,
Speaker 1: you had to do so much, so I would work
Speaker 1: across departments on dozens and dozens of ad campaigns. When
Speaker 1: I first moved to the US, I would work for
Speaker 1: a year and a half on one television ad for Spaghettios.
Speaker 1: How do you work eighteen months on trying to make
Speaker 1: one Spaghettios television add I don't know. But the US
Speaker 1: have been a great one, arguable. But the year before
Speaker 1: I've done thirty there was a lot of volume, and
Speaker 1: I think a lot of that volume helped me to
Speaker 1: learn the ropes pretty quickly. Do you find in the
Speaker 1: US that it meant less that you hadn't gone to college.
Speaker 1: I feel it meant more. I was quite and secure
Speaker 1: about for a while, and it was really only in
Speaker 1: my middle thirties that I really wrestled the insecurity to
Speaker 1: the mat and really started to find that deep sense
Speaker 1: of confidence and to give a greater sense of permanence,
Speaker 1: Like I was always worried, you know, that someone was
Speaker 1: going to take it away. They'd find out where I
Speaker 1: was from and find out how I'd gotten here and
Speaker 1: take it all away. And it was only in my
Speaker 1: mid thirties that I really transcended that. So when you
Speaker 1: look at someone today and they didn't go to college,
Speaker 1: do you go a while I need to give them
Speaker 1: a chance they're gonna work harder, or do you say
Speaker 1: you should go to college. I have a very strong
Speaker 1: ethic around education, and I'm quite adamant that my kids
Speaker 1: are going to go to college. Statistically, you see where
Speaker 1: the outcomes are. I think the real challenge we're dealing
Speaker 1: with at the moment is the amount of debt that
Speaker 1: kids are coming out of school with, and it's really
Speaker 1: questionable how valuable it is. So when I think about
Speaker 1: my own kids, I want them to go to college.
Speaker 1: And I opened their five two nines on the day
Speaker 1: before each of them were born. That's been the ethic
Speaker 1: I've had around it. But when I think of our
Speaker 1: group M and what we're doing, we are increasingly looking
Speaker 1: at alternative ways to get kids into jobs that don't
Speaker 1: require four year degrees. There's a lot that happens in
Speaker 1: the world of advertising and media that shouldn't require a
Speaker 1: four year degree, and certainly no point in enforcing kids
Speaker 1: and saddling kids with all of that debt in order
Speaker 1: to get there. So as we think about increasing the
Speaker 1: diversity at group M how we think about those kind
Speaker 1: of entry level roles is a big part of we
Speaker 1: think how we're going to solve the longer term diversity
Speaker 1: challenges we're having in the industry. They'll have it around
Speaker 1: a long time and there's a big club of us
Speaker 1: who didn't finish college, some that didn't go to college.
Speaker 1: My great boss and mentor at Warner Communications, Steve Ross,
Speaker 1: I think he went for two weeks and there was
Speaker 1: once of job posting that came down and said college
Speaker 1: degree required for some very low level jobs. So I
Speaker 1: call it the HR department just tweak a little bit. You're,
Speaker 1: you know, our chairman, so you know I didn't go
Speaker 1: to college. Here thinking he's not qualified to do this job.
Speaker 1: So they center banks to college degree preferred. So let's
Speaker 1: go back to Australia a little bit. Talk about your childhood.
Speaker 1: You said you really couldn't afford to go to college,
Speaker 1: needed to go to work. What was the family life
Speaker 1: like and how did that shape You'm from a working
Speaker 1: poor family. My dad was a school teacher in school principal,
Speaker 1: and my mom was a stay at home moment we
Speaker 1: had five kids on a teacher. Sorry, when we lived
Speaker 1: in rural Australia at that point was always pretty precarious.
Speaker 1: Then when dad left the family home at twelve, and
Speaker 1: really he left, I mean he was gone, you know,
Speaker 1: and mom had never worked a day in her life,
Speaker 1: so she was pretty much left to figure out how
Speaker 1: to provide for five kids. It was very challenging time.
Speaker 1: We really were living in the margins financially, but at
Speaker 1: the same time just an incredible spirit and sense of
Speaker 1: love that filled the home. It was very fun filled
Speaker 1: and love filled home. And so that, more than the
Speaker 1: economic circumstances, is what shape who I am as a person.
Speaker 1: You grew up in a loving but tough childhood. What
Speaker 1: lessons do you repeat to your kids about that? The
Speaker 1: main thesis of the way we parents is having love
Speaker 1: and compassion for everybody. They're certainly showing that seven and
Speaker 1: nine years old. They blow me away sometime. Do you
Speaker 1: go back to Australia lot. Does the family go back
Speaker 1: they feel rooted or just you rooted there. No, my
Speaker 1: kids are they're very American. I mean, they sound like
Speaker 1: they're from Brooklyn and they've got really thick, little New
Speaker 1: York accents. But they loved being half Australian and so
Speaker 1: they've really connected to that part of their identity. Both
Speaker 1: of my parents have passed away, so a lot of
Speaker 1: the impetus to go back every year or twice a
Speaker 1: year has gone away, So we go back a bit
Speaker 1: less frequently these days, but the kids certainly love getting
Speaker 1: back there, and they certainly identify with the part of
Speaker 1: them that's Australian. So let's jump back to advertising. You
Speaker 1: started as the advertising CODEBT everything you'd bear the CEO
Speaker 1: job like this. I wear my ambition pretty lightly. It's
Speaker 1: more of this internal drive, I guess, because where I
Speaker 1: started in Melbourne, it was such a small place. So
Speaker 1: by twenty four I was running a bunch of accounts.
Speaker 1: The guy who ran it, you know, he was only
Speaker 1: twenty nine running the operation. So at that point the
Speaker 1: gap between me and the top didn't seem that large.
Speaker 1: So I was always kind of set on being a CEO.
Speaker 1: And then I decided to get to the US because
Speaker 1: I just thought Australia are pretty small pond, so I
Speaker 1: thought I'd come here. How is it different than you
Speaker 1: had imagined it as a kid? I mean, this is marketing.
Speaker 1: It was more fun and less corporate than I thought
Speaker 1: it would be, maybe because I didn't really know, so
Speaker 1: I just had this association with people in business, you know,
Speaker 1: wearing tires and being all formal, even in marketing advertising.
Speaker 1: I had this idea that it was going to be
Speaker 1: quite stiff and formal. In many ways that appealed to me.
Speaker 1: I was always more drawn to the establishment and being
Speaker 1: anti establishment, and maybe that's because of where I grew up.
Speaker 1: I always thought there was this club that I was
Speaker 1: trying to get to. So I was actually more navy
Speaker 1: than pirate in my sensibilities growing up. So I thought
Speaker 1: when I got there, i'd be I'd be joining this club.
Speaker 1: And I was quite pleasantly surprised to see how fun
Speaker 1: and spirited and as a fun club corporate it was.
Speaker 1: What lessons did you learn about marketing from that early
Speaker 1: part of your career that's still stick with you today,
Speaker 1: And it's sort of a foundational belief you have. At
Speaker 1: the heart of it, this is all about making emotional
Speaker 1: connections with people and that hasn't changed even with everything
Speaker 1: we can do today, with the power of all of
Speaker 1: our data and technology and targeting tools and this and this,
Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, it's about moving
Speaker 1: people and the only way to do that is at
Speaker 1: the level of emotional engagement. You have a reputation of
Speaker 1: being a change agent, that you see things a different way.
Speaker 1: You think that comes from the fact that you were
Speaker 1: in this job jack of all trades where you could
Speaker 1: do everything and you could see things in a very
Speaker 1: fluid way, and that if you had jumped into a
Speaker 1: big advertising agency and been put in a very specific job,
Speaker 1: you would not have that ability. Or do you think
Speaker 1: that's an in needability you have? I think it's probably
Speaker 1: bored out of my early drive in my career in
Speaker 1: the sense that to me, stasis felt like going backwards.
Speaker 1: Also had a bit of a chip on my shoulder
Speaker 1: about it, and a healthy kind of disrespect for it
Speaker 1: as well. It really came from this kind of inner
Speaker 1: drive to constantly be moving forward, evolving and changing. You
Speaker 1: went back and forth Australia, US, then you went back
Speaker 1: to Australia came back to the US. Why did you
Speaker 1: go back to Australia. I got engaged and my wife
Speaker 1: is much smarter than I am. On the night I
Speaker 1: asked her to marry me, I said, will you marry me, Kristen?
Speaker 1: And she said absolutely if we live in America? And
Speaker 1: I'm like, wow, I'm talking about a high leverage moment.
Speaker 1: She knew it was coming and she was ready for me,
Speaker 1: and she had me over barrel. So really the reason
Speaker 1: we went back to Australia was because I realized it
Speaker 1: was going to be my last chance to live there,
Speaker 1: and my parents were getting elderly. My brother who passed
Speaker 1: away from AIDS, he was quite sick at the time,
Speaker 1: and so he's the window of time working really go
Speaker 1: and reconnect the family. So we made the deal that
Speaker 1: we go live in Australia for three years and then
Speaker 1: come back to New York to start a family. Tim
Speaker 1: There's so much more I want to get into, from
Speaker 1: your management style to how you convinced all of Australia
Speaker 1: to turn off their lights for an hour. But before
Speaker 1: we get into any of that, let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to math and magic. We're here today with
Speaker 1: Tim Castree, looking at your career and listening to folks
Speaker 1: talk about you. The big question is what are you?
Speaker 1: Account person, A creative, a technologist, a quant a business person.
Speaker 1: How do you think of yourself? I'm a client guy.
Speaker 1: Everything else for me, all that other stuff that I've
Speaker 1: learned and done is really about increasing my ability to
Speaker 1: help clients solve their business problems with the tools that
Speaker 1: we have in at w p P in a group.
Speaker 1: And but the first door I walked through the way
Speaker 1: I identify myself is first and foremost as a client person. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, you've got a great reputation, and the first
Speaker 1: time I heard about you, you were so of the
Speaker 1: spectacular client person. But all this other stuff you've done
Speaker 1: didn't make you a different client person than they had
Speaker 1: seen from other places. All that other experience gave me
Speaker 1: kind of more utility, so I didn't have to go
Speaker 1: to everybody to help understand clients out of self problems.
Speaker 1: I'd still bring in specialists and experts, but I knew
Speaker 1: a lot more directly myself about a lot of parts
Speaker 1: of the business, so that was really helpful. The other
Speaker 1: thing that's helped me here is the culture of Australian business,
Speaker 1: the directness, the way I've run my career. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to be Australian. You know, there's a there's a strength
Speaker 1: and I think the egalitarian style of Australia which has
Speaker 1: really helped me here. But only two thousand six you
Speaker 1: became CEO of Leo Burnett Sydney. The agency was named
Speaker 1: Australia's Agency of the Year. That heavy stuff. I mean,
Speaker 1: here's somebody who didn't go to college started shoveling manure
Speaker 1: and now you're the CEO of Leo Burnett and you're
Speaker 1: wrecking as the agency of the year. Wow. It was
Speaker 1: awesome because it was my first CEO job and it
Speaker 1: was also the company where I started, you know, the
Speaker 1: company where Melinda gave me that little training program and
Speaker 1: I was back, you know, still working with me Linda.
Speaker 1: It was a very very proud moment for me. Did
Speaker 1: it change your view of you? It didn't change my
Speaker 1: idea of me. But it was the time when I
Speaker 1: worked most on my mindset and thinking around my right
Speaker 1: to be in the leadership job, starting to realize that
Speaker 1: this is legit. I've earned this and it's not that
Speaker 1: somebody's gonna wake up tomorrow and figure out that I
Speaker 1: fooled him and I got here, but I really deserve
Speaker 1: to be here. The doors must have opened at that
Speaker 1: time to agency of the year, away goes, who is
Speaker 1: this guy? How old were you at the time, early
Speaker 1: thirties maybe thirty three? Did any doors open or surprises
Speaker 1: as to what opportunities came your way as a result
Speaker 1: of that? Not directly. I have this m O two.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't answer the phone when it rings.
Speaker 1: When I commit to a job, I say I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this for three years, and I'm going to
Speaker 1: do it for three years, and I'm not going to
Speaker 1: think about anything else. And then maybe two and a
Speaker 1: half years, I'll think is this working for me? And
Speaker 1: if it's still working for me, I really recommit to
Speaker 1: the next three years. Talk about creativity in this period
Speaker 1: and Leo Burnett get an example. The best campaign I've
Speaker 1: ever worked on. One of the reasons I moved to
Speaker 1: media was after we'd made this campaign, I don't what
Speaker 1: bell was left was a cinical moment, and that was
Speaker 1: the formation of a campaign called Earth Hour. The World
Speaker 1: Wildlife Fund came to Leo Bannett and said, we want
Speaker 1: a campaign about climate change. The chairman at the time
Speaker 1: a great man named Nigel Marsh who's become a dear friend.
Speaker 1: He said, well, let's not make you some mad, Let's
Speaker 1: make a movement. Let's convince everybody in Sydney to turn
Speaker 1: off their lights for an hour and make a symbolic gesture.
Speaker 1: So this idea of Earth Hour was born. But not
Speaker 1: only did Nigel do that, he worked with the w
Speaker 1: w F and he took it to the Sydney Morning
Speaker 1: Herald with the editorial desk and said, look, if we
Speaker 1: launch this, will you get behind it from an editorial standpoint,
Speaker 1: because we want to convince everybody in sne you to
Speaker 1: turn out their lights. Everybody this started thinking like this
Speaker 1: is an impossible thing. But then by the time we
Speaker 1: got thousands of businesses, millions of people, We saw the
Speaker 1: central Business district of Sydney go dark and it was
Speaker 1: such a powerful symbol and statement and the earned media
Speaker 1: and everything that came off of that was phenomenal. And
Speaker 1: then it expanded. So Earth Hour is still going and
Speaker 1: at last count, about seven thousand cities around the world
Speaker 1: take part in Earth Hour every year. It's the single
Speaker 1: biggest movement of its kind that has ever been created,
Speaker 1: and it was really about our agency, the Sydney Morning
Speaker 1: Herald and the World Wildlife Fund coming together and flipping
Speaker 1: the brief on its head and say, let's do this
Speaker 1: a little bit differently. Hundreds of millions, perhaps you know
Speaker 1: more than a billion people around the world have been
Speaker 1: influenced by that campaign since it launched out of our
Speaker 1: little old office of Leo Benette, Sydney ten or twelve
Speaker 1: years ago. Well, congratulations, So what was your first real
Speaker 1: management job? Then? When I came to the US. My
Speaker 1: first job working at foot Cone and Belding as an
Speaker 1: account director. It was more formal, and I had a
Speaker 1: team and there were kind of set ways of work
Speaker 1: and I had to fit into a bit more of
Speaker 1: a structure. What was your management style? Equal parts cheerleader
Speaker 1: and tough taskmaster. So we've always tried to give a
Speaker 1: lot of support for the people that have worked with
Speaker 1: me and around me, but I also have really high
Speaker 1: expectations of them as well as I do with myself.
Speaker 1: It's not you to be my boss either, you know.
Speaker 1: I have high expectations of my boss, and I have
Speaker 1: high expectations of myself and have high expectations of the
Speaker 1: people that work for me. They're always trying to do
Speaker 1: that with a lot of love and compassion and fun.
Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, the standards won't move,
Speaker 1: you know, they're fixed. A lot of people probably listening
Speaker 1: today who are new managers, what do you wish somebody
Speaker 1: had told you and you stepped in that job? Managing
Speaker 1: yourself is the most important thing. It's more important than
Speaker 1: how you manage other people. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people come into management jobs and they think, like
Speaker 1: the field general is how they manage the troops, But
Speaker 1: it's actually more than anything. It's the role modeling and
Speaker 1: the behaviors and expectations you have of yourself that I
Speaker 1: think the most important and influential management is seventy how
Speaker 1: you manage yourself, your focus, and how you manage others.
Speaker 1: What I really want is to encourage the people that
Speaker 1: I managed to also manage themselves very effectively and have
Speaker 1: high standards for themselves. And if everybody operates that way,
Speaker 1: then collectively the company will keep doing better. You're known
Speaker 1: among people who know you well for being calm and
Speaker 1: handlings for us well. That related to yoga. Yoga helps, yeah,
Speaker 1: and having a great wife and partner at home. You know,
Speaker 1: I do stay pretty calm and then I do my
Speaker 1: freaking out when I closed the door at night. How
Speaker 1: often is that? Not too often happen? Yoga yoga certainly
Speaker 1: helps a lot. So how does that pit in your
Speaker 1: management style? I try and keep people calm and help
Speaker 1: them to reframe things. When they're in a crisis or
Speaker 1: having an emergency. I help them to rethink and reframe it.
Speaker 1: Let's not talk about what's happened to get us to
Speaker 1: this point. I hate the blame culture that exists in business.
Speaker 1: Let's just think about the situation we're in and what's
Speaker 1: the best course of action to take from here. There's
Speaker 1: a great sense of urgency, sometimes emergency and crisis that
Speaker 1: can get generated in companies every single day. We also
Speaker 1: work in a service business where clients have high expectations
Speaker 1: of us and can be very, very demanding. So I
Speaker 1: actually find it's not about these big moments. It's actually
Speaker 1: about how do we stay calm and focused on what's
Speaker 1: next in the day to day based on the dozens
Speaker 1: and hundreds of things that get thrown at us. Take
Speaker 1: a second about how you think about mystiques, how do
Speaker 1: you think about risk descent? My job is really to
Speaker 1: define the problem clearly and what we're trying to accomplish,
Speaker 1: and then bring the right team together to solve that
Speaker 1: problem and empower them to get it wrong. And it's
Speaker 1: not that I don't have answers. Sometimes I know what
Speaker 1: the answer is going to be or needs to be.
Speaker 1: But the way you build consensus and alignment around that.
Speaker 1: There's a quote one of my coaches told me once,
Speaker 1: which is people will tolerate your conclusions, but they'll only
Speaker 1: act on their own conclusions. So how do we lead
Speaker 1: a team to really get them to draw the right
Speaker 1: set of conclusions that will enable them to act and
Speaker 1: move more quickly to solve the various challenges and opportunities
Speaker 1: that we have. Really, that's what I'm trying to do
Speaker 1: is create that setting for success where teams can come together,
Speaker 1: collaborate and solve problems they're going to help move the
Speaker 1: company forward. I've also found as I've gotten more senior
Speaker 1: in my career, I tend to get more and more
Speaker 1: and more of the problems coming to me that others
Speaker 1: don't know what to do with or can't solve. So
Speaker 1: by definition, my job has become a problem solving job
Speaker 1: because if it's easy, it doesn't get to me. It's
Speaker 1: solved before it reaches me. That's one of the surprises
Speaker 1: I think for people to step into the CEO job
Speaker 1: is nothing's fun, it's problems. So let's pass forward a
Speaker 1: bit to your CEO days at Media vest Us, you
Speaker 1: had huge clients, hard That Monderly's, Coke, Microsoft, Sprint. What
Speaker 1: did you learn from them? Were great, great companies. I
Speaker 1: mean I learned something different from all of them. You
Speaker 1: know Laura Desmond right, I worked met Laura. Laura was amazing.
Speaker 1: What I learned from Laura about really how to manage
Speaker 1: these large clients with complex stakeholder environments, and how to
Speaker 1: really get align with them and how to move them forward.
Speaker 1: I mean each of them the context was slightly different.
Speaker 1: But what I loved about all those clients was they
Speaker 1: were all sophisticated, They all had a lot of ambition,
Speaker 1: and it was all about how do we partner more
Speaker 1: closely together to help these clients get where they're going
Speaker 1: to reach their objectives and how do we align the
Speaker 1: agency around that. Laura was really the master of thinking
Speaker 1: in those turns. What is the secret of that. It's
Speaker 1: quite simple, but it's really about understanding the higher order needs,
Speaker 1: benefits and strategic priorities of those companies. How do we
Speaker 1: link what we're trying to accomplish through the lens of
Speaker 1: media back into those higher order strategic needs and objectives
Speaker 1: that exist in the company more broadly. And that sounds easy,
Speaker 1: it's sometimes hard to do, but that's really the art
Speaker 1: of bringing really good partnership and alignment to these big
Speaker 1: client companies. Another switch in a difficult position, but are
Speaker 1: there are two or three cmos that you've worked with
Speaker 1: that just really stand out as changing your life or
Speaker 1: your view or learning something from them. There's two, once
Speaker 1: from Australia and one from the US. The CMO of
Speaker 1: Hines in Australia, he became a great friend and he
Speaker 1: was the person I go to for advice. He was
Speaker 1: an amazing CMO. And then I loved Chris Capasella at Microsoft.
Speaker 1: Microsoft is a company that really got under my skin.
Speaker 1: I'm still very very passionate about that business to this day,
Speaker 1: and a lot of that was to do with my
Speaker 1: time working on Microsoft and engaging with Chris Capasella and
Speaker 1: the whole marketing team there. I thought they were fantastic.
Speaker 1: Two thousand and fourteen, you veer off to go to Videology,
Speaker 1: a video ad tech platform, sort of a departure from
Speaker 1: your career. Why and how. The impetus for it was
Speaker 1: that when I CEO of Media VS, I was technically
Speaker 1: in charge of our programmatic offering and services and I
Speaker 1: didn't know shit about it. I didn't know anything. This
Speaker 1: we saw as being the future, and I thought I
Speaker 1: have no right to be leading this part of our
Speaker 1: business at the moment. We had great people in it,
Speaker 1: but I felt like what was going on in the
Speaker 1: world of technology and data was going to bring about
Speaker 1: such tectonic change that I needed to go into it
Speaker 1: to really learn it. And that was really what precipitated
Speaker 1: the decision to leave agencies for a while and go
Speaker 1: and work at Videology, as I wanted to work in
Speaker 1: a product company where that's all they did every day
Speaker 1: and understand it from the level of not just the services,
Speaker 1: but really the technology and the products around that. So
Speaker 1: go into work in a technology and product company was
Speaker 1: really my m b A and ad tech and to
Speaker 1: this day it was the equal best decision I ever made.
Speaker 1: The first was making the move from creative to media,
Speaker 1: and then the second was dipping out of media for
Speaker 1: a while to go and learn the ad tech space deeply.
Speaker 1: It was a great much did you learn about the technology?
Speaker 1: Was a more product or was it more technology or both?
Speaker 1: I learned a lot about both. I also learned about
Speaker 1: how a product come and he's operate different from service companies.
Speaker 1: When you've got to scale a platform and make that
Speaker 1: work for thousands of end users, that's very different than
Speaker 1: delivering service to clients in our business. Now, what a
Speaker 1: media agency looks like today and needs to operate a
Speaker 1: lot more like a product company and not just a
Speaker 1: service company. So it was very very helpful experience. People
Speaker 1: forget sometimes to give enough credit to the agencies and
Speaker 1: how much change they've absorbed. But the rate of change
Speaker 1: in the next team years needs to pick up. If
Speaker 1: we only change at the rate we did in the
Speaker 1: last five, we'll be going backwards. A lot of managers,
Speaker 1: your friends, my friends are talking about the silos. How
Speaker 1: do you rethink an organization that's not based on silos?
Speaker 1: The challenge that I think a lot of companies have had,
Speaker 1: and I think we're falling into this mistake as well.
Speaker 1: A group them in the past is thinking that it's
Speaker 1: a structural solution to our silo problems, because that's the
Speaker 1: way it looks on an ORC chart. It looks like
Speaker 1: silos P and l's individual leadership. And I do think
Speaker 1: the structural work is important, but there are six, seven, eight, nine,
Speaker 1: ten other levels that you've got to pull in order
Speaker 1: to break down those internal silos. The way we think
Speaker 1: about incentives, the way we build culture, the types of
Speaker 1: leaders we choose, the values we have as a company.
Speaker 1: Structures really the bricks, but what's the mortar that's going
Speaker 1: to hold that all together and help you to be
Speaker 1: more cohesive as a company. And sometimes if I go
Speaker 1: to work in group or a team, I give them
Speaker 1: a challenge. I say, go help us solve this problem
Speaker 1: and come back to me with some recommendations. Very often
Speaker 1: part of that brief will be you have to think
Speaker 1: about every other level you want to pull to fix
Speaker 1: this problem before you give me a structural solution. Will
Speaker 1: do structure last? So in many ways I kind of
Speaker 1: take that away to force them to think more deeply
Speaker 1: about how are we going to drive some change here
Speaker 1: that isn't just about shifting stuff around. On the ORC chart,
Speaker 1: do you find people in the organization are looking for
Speaker 1: the new organization or are they afraid of the change
Speaker 1: that it might bring to them? Probably both, And it
Speaker 1: might depend on where you are generationally and how much
Speaker 1: as an individual in your career the silos or power
Speaker 1: structures might serve the manager individually. But I'd say on
Speaker 1: the whole people inside Group AM are hungering for us
Speaker 1: to continue to evolve. There is so much intelligence and
Speaker 1: talent in the company and such a desire for us
Speaker 1: to pick up the rate of change that I'm pushing
Speaker 1: on a lot of open doors, and that's been probably
Speaker 1: the biggest surprise coming into my job is the volume
Speaker 1: of people into a group them that are excited to
Speaker 1: keep reinventing our company so we can be more relevant
Speaker 1: in the future. You really care about clients known for that,
Speaker 1: and you care about your clients brands as much as
Speaker 1: they do. What are the dangerous to day to brands
Speaker 1: that we didn't have and how are you addressing that?
Speaker 1: I think the biggest danger to brands is in a
Speaker 1: world where there's now infinite shelves. You know, there's no
Speaker 1: constraints in terms of the store shelf anymore, and an
Speaker 1: infinite number of ways to connect with them. I think
Speaker 1: it's very very easy for disruptors to come in and
Speaker 1: get their business up to a certain size, and that's
Speaker 1: where a lot of these DTC businesses are coming in
Speaker 1: and really reinventing these kind of value propositions and taking
Speaker 1: a slice off a traditional, big client base. And I
Speaker 1: think it's very hard for these DTC companies to come
Speaker 1: in and break through to the scale had a lot
Speaker 1: of our clients are operating that, but it's not as
Speaker 1: hard to get to thirty fifty hundred a hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty two hundred million dollars of sales. And when that
Speaker 1: happens across a number of fronts, you know, that's really
Speaker 1: starting to take a slice off a lot of the
Speaker 1: business that our traditional clients have had. And so I
Speaker 1: think it's the aggregation of a lot of these DTC
Speaker 1: competitors that are the biggest threat two brands. I look
Speaker 1: at Mark Pritchard, who I'm a big fan of, and
Speaker 1: look at the successes he's had recently where he really
Speaker 1: rethought the marketing process and media and partners, and look
Speaker 1: for more efficiencies and effectiveness. And I think he just
Speaker 1: had his third or fourth quarter of record results. Do
Speaker 1: you think that's a model Others are looking at Marcus
Speaker 1: being a pioneer, and I think he was the first
Speaker 1: serious big CMO leader to use his pulpit to call
Speaker 1: bullshit on a lot of the received wisdom that had
Speaker 1: started to grow up around digital marketing in the digital ecosystem.
Speaker 1: He was the first to say, you know, I'm not
Speaker 1: sure that watching this digital video ad with the sound
Speaker 1: off for a nanosecond of three pixels in view is
Speaker 1: really going to help move the needle on my business.
Speaker 1: So he started to take a much more balanced view
Speaker 1: in terms of the relationship between traditional media and new media. Obviously,
Speaker 1: digital marketing is really important, but you know, it's not
Speaker 1: the panaceater everything, and we still need scale. We still
Speaker 1: need to engage with people emotionally. We're a big business,
Speaker 1: so we need a law of large numbers. We can't
Speaker 1: target our way through every business problem and challenge that
Speaker 1: we've got, and some of these ad products that exist
Speaker 1: in the digital ecosystem aren't as good as some of
Speaker 1: the traditional ones. There was a while where there's a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure on marketers to feel and look more digital.
Speaker 1: There was a little bit of a sense that, hang on,
Speaker 1: if I'm recommending radio and out of home and other
Speaker 1: more traditional medias and not as much of this new
Speaker 1: digital stuff, am I going to look like a dinosaur?
Speaker 1: And I think that's sometimes led a lot of marketers
Speaker 1: to overreach into new things before they really understood the
Speaker 1: impact they could have at scale. So Mark has been
Speaker 1: a great leader in that way. Radio business. We love
Speaker 1: it because he went back and discovered radio and billboards
Speaker 1: and things like that as well. Talk to me a
Speaker 1: little bit about the overall decline and TV because that
Speaker 1: used to be the foundation of the reach of any
Speaker 1: campaign and now it doesn't have that. So how do
Speaker 1: you think that changes the world of right? And I'm
Speaker 1: a traditional broadcast media is getting older. Video is very
Speaker 1: much alive, but there's been a lot of fragmentation from
Speaker 1: traditional television into a multitude of IP addressable and over
Speaker 1: the top places. Even much of it doesn't carry ADS,
Speaker 1: and then the bits that do haven't had a measurement
Speaker 1: standard around them and targeting standards around them, so we
Speaker 1: can accrue audiences in those places with the same level
Speaker 1: of predictability and measurement that we have had in traditional television,
Speaker 1: and I think it's forcing us to reevaluate the concept
Speaker 1: of video reach. Having primacy alone, video was the top
Speaker 1: of the stack because it represented site sounded motion. But
Speaker 1: as I say, if that's now a digital video with
Speaker 1: the sound off for a fraction of a second, we
Speaker 1: know that's not equivalent to a thirty second television ad.
Speaker 1: So that's opened the door for us to really rethink
Speaker 1: how we do reach planning, not just for television or
Speaker 1: video first, and then we add on the other channels later,
Speaker 1: but let's really understand the impact and roll that all
Speaker 1: channels can play across our display, audio and video formats.
Speaker 1: And then how do we want to rebuild plans to
Speaker 1: maximize the combination of reach and engagement that we know
Speaker 1: we need to move the needle privacy and data double
Speaker 1: edged swords. How are you thinking about it for your clients?
Speaker 1: These will be the defining issue for the next ten years,
Speaker 1: and it's a defining issue now. So we are playing
Speaker 1: our role in the industry to really try and lead
Speaker 1: the way when it comes to brand safety, when it
Speaker 1: comes to viewability and performance standards, when it comes to
Speaker 1: driving consistent measurement. These things are really important. The biggest
Speaker 1: client response we're seeing to the threat and the challenges
Speaker 1: around your potential privacy regulation is the importance of direct
Speaker 1: customer relationships and first party data. There's not a market
Speaker 1: out there that is not looking to build more direct
Speaker 1: customer relationships, to buy DTCs sts and to have that
Speaker 1: direct permission and pipe into their customer basis so they
Speaker 1: can really both market directly without that mediation, but then
Speaker 1: also to have a rich data set that they can
Speaker 1: use to optimize the performance of a lot of other
Speaker 1: work they're doing a cross channels let's talk about data.
Speaker 1: Is it the new team all stakes? And are you
Speaker 1: expecting every media partner to bring those capabilities? It's absolutely
Speaker 1: table stakes, and it's important that the agencies, the clients themselves,
Speaker 1: and the media owners are all making the investments that
Speaker 1: they need to make to set us up for a
Speaker 1: world of audience driven optimization and audience driven targeting and
Speaker 1: getting beyond this age demo tradition that has really drove
Speaker 1: the media for the first a hundred years of its existence.
Speaker 1: So let's change subjects a minute. You're committed to making
Speaker 1: the world better. You're a co founder you and your
Speaker 1: wife actively involved in A Place at the Table. Tell
Speaker 1: us little bit about the mission and a little bit
Speaker 1: of history of how that gets going and the impact.
Speaker 1: A Place at the Table with the name of a
Speaker 1: movie it's some friends of yours developed. Tom Colikio was
Speaker 1: that executive producer and Laurie Silverbush was the director of
Speaker 1: that film. I saw that film and the same time
Speaker 1: I've been talking to Christen and thinking about I do
Speaker 1: need to start to use my relationships and talents to help.
Speaker 1: We made the decision to focus on hunger because that
Speaker 1: was a big part of my childhood, was insecurity around
Speaker 1: food and hovedy in general. I was discussing this another
Speaker 1: total coincidence. My life is full of them, with those
Speaker 1: lifting weights with a personal trainer. One morning I was
Speaker 1: describing to Jesse this revelation I've had, and she said, oh, well,
Speaker 1: Laurie is a good friend of mine. Let me connect
Speaker 1: with Laurie. Just total coincidence. You happened to make that movie,
Speaker 1: and so Jesse connected me with Laurie in my head
Speaker 1: lunch one day and said, look, I loved your movie.
Speaker 1: What you've done with the movie is really persuasive. The
Speaker 1: problem is that's a documentary and so the people who
Speaker 1: see it will already be moved by the issue, and
Speaker 1: not many people will see it anyway, So why don't
Speaker 1: we take the concepts and the themes you've built into
Speaker 1: the movie and then think like a marketer and package
Speaker 1: those themes up for more mass consumption so we can
Speaker 1: start to move hearts and minds around the issue of hunger.
Speaker 1: And that's really where A Place at the Table was born.
Speaker 1: It was the idea of taking the themes and concepts
Speaker 1: in the movie and turn it into an ongoing campaign
Speaker 1: and marketing program aimed at changing the way people think
Speaker 1: about the hunger issue in America. Talk to me about
Speaker 1: the progress and how you measure the progress. We've made
Speaker 1: really good progress. This is a small organization. We don't
Speaker 1: raise very much money. We think there's so much great
Speaker 1: work happening in the establishment that exists around anti poverty
Speaker 1: and anti hunger organizations. What we're trying to do is
Speaker 1: to help fuel them to communicate more effectively. And so
Speaker 1: the biggest thing we've been doing in the last twelve
Speaker 1: months is doing a lot of work with an organization
Speaker 1: called Frameworks, which is really teaching us how to talk
Speaker 1: about hunger that motivates and moves people away from the
Speaker 1: stereotypes and into a different mindset around what solutions the
Speaker 1: stereotypes are, What the stereotypes are that you need to
Speaker 1: solve it with charity. People need to pull themselves up
Speaker 1: by their bootstraps. They've done it to themselves. There's not
Speaker 1: a lot of empathy around the issue, and so we're
Speaker 1: trying to help people understand that there are structural and
Speaker 1: systemic things that are driving the issue of hunger, such
Speaker 1: as the gap between rich and poor, the way we
Speaker 1: think about wages and minimum wage, the lack of equal
Speaker 1: access to opportunity that's really now determined by where you're born,
Speaker 1: the color of your skin, other things like that. Systemic
Speaker 1: barrier is the number of people who are hungry where
Speaker 1: there's a working parent in the household. This is not
Speaker 1: about unemployment. There's a lot of hunger in working homes,
Speaker 1: and so helping people understand the full nature and to
Speaker 1: mention of the problem has been the first step. And
Speaker 1: then also helping people to understand how do we talk
Speaker 1: about this issue differently so they don't default to these
Speaker 1: unconscious stereotypes that they have about hungry people which can
Speaker 1: get in the way of treating the empathy that they
Speaker 1: need to have for people who are hungry that will
Speaker 1: ultimately move them to more action. More congratulations on the
Speaker 1: work there. I know it's rewarding but also impressive. You
Speaker 1: were once quoted as saying, I can share you a sheep,
Speaker 1: cook you a pretty good meal. So that's sum you up.
Speaker 1: There's certainly two truths. I can't cook you a good
Speaker 1: meal and I can't share a sheep. Any other harbies
Speaker 1: or passions. Yoga is a big passion, and really I'm
Speaker 1: just so focused on my family at the moment. Honestly,
Speaker 1: there's nothing I can imagine I want to do more
Speaker 1: than spend an afternoon together as a family. You're a
Speaker 1: smart man and a lucky man. Let's end with math
Speaker 1: and magic. Where we began from Australia to the u
Speaker 1: US and all the international work you've done. You've seen
Speaker 1: Greek folks, the analytical ones and the creative ones and
Speaker 1: everybody in between. All the people you've seen. Who's the
Speaker 1: best mathematician? You know that analytical tape. My favorite mathematician,
Speaker 1: Scott Ferber, who's the CEO and founder of Videology, The
Speaker 1: thing I love about Scott is he had an understanding
Speaker 1: and a model and a concept for how to use
Speaker 1: data to optimize advertising that was very, very different. I
Speaker 1: think he's right about his thesis, which is it's not
Speaker 1: about bidding and in real time, it's about yield management.
Speaker 1: How you think about the problem in the context of yields, So,
Speaker 1: how do we think about optimization of advertising in the
Speaker 1: way that UPS thinks about filling trucks or American Airlines
Speaker 1: thinks about yield management for an airplane versus auction based
Speaker 1: dynamics has had a massive influence on me. So Scott
Speaker 1: Furber is my number one favorite mathematician I've worked with.
Speaker 1: Of all time magician working in creative agencies, I've worked
Speaker 1: with many. My favorite is John Haggerty, who is uh
Speaker 1: you know, an old time When I was running account
Speaker 1: management at bb H in New York, John was still
Speaker 1: the active credit director and chairman, and so to work
Speaker 1: directly with John on campaigns and to see how close
Speaker 1: how he applies his craft, I learned so much from
Speaker 1: John in such a short period of time. He deserves
Speaker 1: the statue he has in the industry. Tim, Thank you,
Speaker 1: Thank you very much. Bob here's three lessons I take
Speaker 1: away from this episode with Tim Castrey. One, regardless of
Speaker 1: all the new digital tools we have now, the bottom
Speaker 1: line is make emotional connections with people. To remember that
Speaker 1: just as important as managing your team is managing yourself.
Speaker 1: And three, if your job feels glamorous, you're probably not
Speaker 1: doing it the right way. Thanks for listening. I'm Bob Pittman.
Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening
Speaker 1: to Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling are Wonderful talent is
Speaker 1: no small feat Nikkiatore for pulling research, Bill Plax and
Speaker 1: Michael Asar for their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch,
Speaker 1: and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and
Speaker 1: everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until
Speaker 1: next time,