Speaker 1: You're listening to Math and Magic, a production of My
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. When I did this, people thought I was crazy.
Speaker 1: I mean I went to every label, and every label
Speaker 1: was saying no to me. They were like, Scooter, your
Speaker 1: grade at marketing, but like it's a YouTube kid, And
Speaker 1: I'm like, you guys are not understanding. There's a sleeping
Speaker 1: giant over here. You're not paying attention. I had one
Speaker 1: of the most impressive executives in music history, tell me,
Speaker 1: where's the sex appeal. He's a young kid. I don't
Speaker 1: get it. There's no sex appeal. And then I said, well,
Speaker 1: you need to look at YouTube and this person who's
Speaker 1: running a major, major label group. They said, well, can
Speaker 1: you get us a DVD? And I said, you just
Speaker 1: all I gotta do is type it in and look
Speaker 1: at the YouTube numbers. And they said, well, he doesn't
Speaker 1: use the internet. And I discovered Justin Bieber on YouTube.
Speaker 1: I'm Bob Pittman and welcome to Math and Magic. Stories
Speaker 1: from the Frontiers and Marketing. I've had a lot of
Speaker 1: jobs over the years. I co founded MTV, I started businesses.
Speaker 1: I'm also the chairman and CEO of I Heart Media,
Speaker 1: America's number one audio company. And that's part of my story,
Speaker 1: but also started out in a little town in Mississippi,
Speaker 1: son of a minister, got my first real job at
Speaker 1: a radio station when I was fifteen. It's where my
Speaker 1: roots are, music voices, hearing people's stories, and one of
Speaker 1: the things I've always loved is trying to decode how
Speaker 1: big ideas find their way into the world. Each episode,
Speaker 1: I chat with someone I truly admire to hear all
Speaker 1: about the data and the creativity, the math and magic
Speaker 1: that goes into the world's greatest marketing. We've had the
Speaker 1: analytical mathematicians and the wildly creative magicians on the podcast.
Speaker 1: Today we have someone who defies all the labels. As
Speaker 1: I was thinking about it that I really was at
Speaker 1: a loss really to describe Scooter Braun born in the
Speaker 1: dawn of the eighties. Grew up in Connecticut, serious high
Speaker 1: school basketball star. Looking at him and he's smiling. I
Speaker 1: guess that's right. Emory University drop out when display the
Speaker 1: music business, became a very students successful investor, family guy,
Speaker 1: and you've made it a point to use your brains
Speaker 1: and influence to make the world a better place too.
Speaker 1: So names he's associated with Ariana Grande, Justin Bieber, Kanye,
Speaker 1: Carli Class, Dory, Kelly, Black Eyed peas, Uber, Spotify, Casper, Pinterest.
Speaker 1: We welcome Scooter Hey, thank you very much. I appreciate
Speaker 1: being here. We're gonna do you in sixty seconds. Quick
Speaker 1: questions Lightning Brown style. Don't think too long to say
Speaker 1: the first thing that comes to your mind exactly. So
Speaker 1: here we go. Ready. Do you prefer Atlanta or l A?
Speaker 1: Now l A because I have my kids in l A.
Speaker 1: Pancakes or waffles, pancakes, Chess or checkers, Chess, Superman or Batman,
Speaker 1: Superman one time or baby both of a special place
Speaker 1: in my heart. I'll go with baby, Giants or Jets.
Speaker 1: I hate the Giants. I'm a die hard jets man.
Speaker 1: Easy care we go, It's about to get harder. Favorite
Speaker 1: song walking in Memphis. Smartest person you know probably David
Speaker 1: Gett's childhood hero, my dad. Historical idol, historical idol that
Speaker 1: was tough. A lot of people have admired from history.
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with Abraham Lincoln as a kid. We'll
Speaker 1: take him. If you could have one superpower, what would
Speaker 1: it be to control the weather? Quote, to live by,
Speaker 1: be kind for everyone, walks a hard journey, worst fat
Speaker 1: or fashion trend in music? Face tattoos. I just don't
Speaker 1: get it. And I got friends who have them. And
Speaker 1: what are you most proud of? My family? Okay, let's
Speaker 1: start with your name. How did you get Scooter? My
Speaker 1: real name is Scott. I went to a birthday party,
Speaker 1: probably when I was in second or third grade, and
Speaker 1: there was like a clown magician and he said, what's
Speaker 1: your name? And I said Scott. He goes, oh, Scooter,
Speaker 1: and I said, that is now my name. And my
Speaker 1: brother saw the aggravation that I had with this name Scooter,
Speaker 1: and that is all he needed to see for him
Speaker 1: to want to haunt me with the name throughout the
Speaker 1: rest of my life, because that's what little brothers do.
Speaker 1: My sophomore year of high school, I think it was
Speaker 1: I came out of the gym, you know, dribbling the
Speaker 1: basketball as the point guard, and my brother had a
Speaker 1: bunch of my friends like holding signs like ride the
Speaker 1: scooter to victory and Scooter this, scooter that. And then
Speaker 1: when I went to college my first year, my buddy
Speaker 1: bet me a hundred bucks. And when he came to
Speaker 1: visit me later on in the school year and my
Speaker 1: freshman year of college that I couldn't convince everyone my
Speaker 1: name was Scooter, and I just took the bet. So
Speaker 1: I went in there and they'd say, okay, freshman orientation
Speaker 1: Scott Braun. I would be like, hah no, it's actually
Speaker 1: a mistake. My name of Scooter. And and then I
Speaker 1: started my business pretty much right away freshman year, and
Speaker 1: Scooter became a marketing tool. Scott something you forget, Scooter,
Speaker 1: you don't forget. I'm a Gemini. So the sign of
Speaker 1: the twin. So there's Scott and there's Scooter. My wife
Speaker 1: calls me Scott. I'm Scott at home, and Scooter is
Speaker 1: somebody who's outside the house. I've seen you with your parents,
Speaker 1: and you have this incredible relationship with your parents, very
Speaker 1: obvious sort of oozes that love and support. How was
Speaker 1: your childhood. I'm very lucky. I had two incredibly supportive,
Speaker 1: loving parents. But my dad was really really tough on me.
Speaker 1: My dad understood how to work each one of his kids.
Speaker 1: If you actually look at the five of us, were
Speaker 1: all successful in our own way, and it's really remarkable
Speaker 1: how well they've done with us. And I hope that
Speaker 1: I can raise my kids the same level that my
Speaker 1: parents did have. Not only that we all successful, but
Speaker 1: we're all very close and we're all extremely loving. But
Speaker 1: my dad realized with me that I was probably the
Speaker 1: toughest one to raise. I was the most rebellious, and
Speaker 1: his way of getting the most out of me one
Speaker 1: stand on my ass, but also disrespecting me a lot
Speaker 1: to make me do the right thing, because he knew
Speaker 1: that I would run in the direction of disrespect. So
Speaker 1: I remember playing basketball and him insulting me to the
Speaker 1: point of tears, but I'd go out and play like
Speaker 1: an animal to prove him wrong. For me, it worked.
Speaker 1: But he was also the coach at every game, and
Speaker 1: you know, in the stands for every game, And when
Speaker 1: I started acting out in seventh grade and beyond, he
Speaker 1: never gave up with me. And he was tough as hell.
Speaker 1: And when I was eighteen, I was like, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: go to Atlanta and get far away from these people.
Speaker 1: And you know, I love him, but I'm gonna be
Speaker 1: my own man. And then you kind of go in
Speaker 1: the cycle. You realize you're trying to prove something to
Speaker 1: someone who already loved you, and now I say that
Speaker 1: out of any man in the world. If you ask
Speaker 1: me who I admire the most, it's him. So let
Speaker 1: me ask you a question. Will you use this technique
Speaker 1: with your kids if they're like me. My brother didn't
Speaker 1: need it, Adam, my sister didn't need it, and he
Speaker 1: wasn't tough on them. He was tough on them, but
Speaker 1: not to the level of the way he was with me.
Speaker 1: I could have gone really in the wrong direction with
Speaker 1: how rebellious I was. When a young man is being
Speaker 1: that rebellious, he's looking for boundaries. He wants to know
Speaker 1: somebody gives a damn. And my dad said boundaries, and
Speaker 1: he fought me like hell, and he showed me he
Speaker 1: gave a damn. So how about as a manager, you
Speaker 1: wind up using this technique on anybody. No, I haven't
Speaker 1: seen anybody completely like me. There were times with Justin
Speaker 1: where you get competitive, and I pushed him in that
Speaker 1: direction a little bit. I've perfected my dad's methods because
Speaker 1: I've molded in my mom's methods. And my mom was idealistic,
Speaker 1: she was comforting, she was tough, but she was always
Speaker 1: beyond supportive, and she didn't use those methods. And I
Speaker 1: think kind of Combining the two of them is where
Speaker 1: I'm at now. But I definitely all the great things
Speaker 1: that my dad taught me I have implemented into my
Speaker 1: life as as an executive, as a manager, as an entrepreneur.
Speaker 1: Sounds like basketball was a real theme growing up. What
Speaker 1: did you learn from it? I think basketball taught me
Speaker 1: one this brotherhood of support, to the idea that you
Speaker 1: can't win without a team, and three play your role
Speaker 1: and play it well because you're part of a larger
Speaker 1: you know, a larger thing. It's not about you. You know,
Speaker 1: my name is on the door, my company, all these
Speaker 1: different things, but I stand on the shoulders of everyone else.
Speaker 1: What do you do to build a team? There? Get
Speaker 1: people they're smarter than you and things that you're not
Speaker 1: good at. I'm really good at things I'm good, and
Speaker 1: I'm really bad at the things I'm not. I heavily
Speaker 1: depend on other people to do their job well. I
Speaker 1: need my power forward, I need my center, I need
Speaker 1: I need my Alice and k who's been with me
Speaker 1: for a decade, who is brilliant at all the things
Speaker 1: that I am not. And I've been lucky enough to
Speaker 1: not be the smartest person in the room. So how
Speaker 1: do you drive the team? People have different skills. You're
Speaker 1: not using your dad's technique exactly. How do I motivate
Speaker 1: my team? One, You've got to set the example. You
Speaker 1: set the example of drive and effort, and I think
Speaker 1: it starts from the top. You've got to show people
Speaker 1: the passion in the drive, in the work ethic. I think,
Speaker 1: if it's eleven o'clock at night or twelve o'clock at
Speaker 1: night or one o'clock in the morning and something isn't done,
Speaker 1: no one's going to stay and get it done unless
Speaker 1: they care about you. So let's go back to the
Speaker 1: beginning to college. You go to Emery Great School in Atlanta.
Speaker 1: You said you started the business in your freshman year.
Speaker 1: What kind of business? Um? I was helping young people
Speaker 1: receive identification. You can figure out what that means. Oh,
Speaker 1: they were good, they were very good. But I was
Speaker 1: a business person and how I did it, and that's
Speaker 1: a much longer story. And I turned it into a
Speaker 1: very profitable business very quickly. But my partner kind of
Speaker 1: broke my protocol. So I walked away from that cold
Speaker 1: turkey because I knew if he broke the protocol, we
Speaker 1: get caught and I didn't want that to define me
Speaker 1: in my future, so I stopped doing that. And then
Speaker 1: I walked by a nightclub in Buckhead and Atlanta, Georgia,
Speaker 1: and I saw this club that was empty, and I said, Hey,
Speaker 1: if I bring people here next week, would you pay me?
Speaker 1: And he was like, yeah, sure. How many people? Does
Speaker 1: it all the eight hundred? I said, okay, I'll bring
Speaker 1: it under and he looked at me like I was crazy.
Speaker 1: When to Kinko has made flyers, called it Kryptonite entertainment
Speaker 1: because I'm a Superman fan, got all these freshman girls
Speaker 1: to help me and through my first party and eight
Speaker 1: people came very quickly. I learned the ropes from a
Speaker 1: local promoter who was an Ethiopian immigrant named Alex get A,
Speaker 1: one who started off as a parking lot of tenant
Speaker 1: and became guy, passed out flyers and became a promoter
Speaker 1: and now is the bigest club owner in Atlanta. And
Speaker 1: he took a liking to me and taught me the
Speaker 1: ropes Tuesday nights at Velvet Room, where I was the
Speaker 1: only white boy in the room, and he used to
Speaker 1: stay with his stutter la let the white boy in
Speaker 1: and then I would take the money I made on
Speaker 1: Thursdays and spend it with Alex's club, kind of faking
Speaker 1: until I make it. And I learned the ropes and
Speaker 1: became a very big party promoter in Atlanta, Georgia. Is
Speaker 1: that why you left college? I left college because I
Speaker 1: was doing that. But then I started helping artists at
Speaker 1: my parties. Jermaine Dupri approached me after I had worked
Speaker 1: with this new up and coming artist who was Chris
Speaker 1: lovel Love on the Radio's name was Ludicrous. Jermaine asked
Speaker 1: me to come help him and he made me verse
Speaker 1: the executive director of marketing and then the VP of
Speaker 1: Marketing at Socio Deft Records. And I was twenty years
Speaker 1: old and Emery didn't offer night classes or internet classes.
Speaker 1: I still wanted to make it work, but I was
Speaker 1: now in academic probation because I was missing so many classes.
Speaker 1: And I got brought into a counselor's office and I
Speaker 1: told him, no, no, there's no drug brom there's no
Speaker 1: nothing like. I'm not reprobation because I'm working hard, and
Speaker 1: and he told me the story of Robert Woodruff, the
Speaker 1: founder of Coca Cola. At the largest sendowment in Emery
Speaker 1: and what a great entrepreneur he was. And I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: this guy gets me. All of a sudden, he turns
Speaker 1: to me and he says, and the chance of you
Speaker 1: being Robert Woodruff is wanted a billion, So we need
Speaker 1: to turn this around. You need to focus on academics.
Speaker 1: And like I said, I don't deal well with disrespect.
Speaker 1: So I looked at him and I said, no, I
Speaker 1: need to do. He goes, we're gonna turn around. I said, yes,
Speaker 1: I'm withdrawing, and I dropped out of school and never
Speaker 1: looked back. This was the end of your junior year,
Speaker 1: midway through my sophomore year. I'm glad to say that
Speaker 1: I've actually started working with a lot of young entrepreneurs
Speaker 1: at Emery now, and the new leadership and Emery the
Speaker 1: dean's there now. They're supportive of these young people in
Speaker 1: their entrepreneurial dreams. I probably wouldn't have dropped out if
Speaker 1: they existed back then. And you stayed in Atlanta for
Speaker 1: how long till I was thirty years old? I've stayed
Speaker 1: there for when I was eighteen till I was thirty.
Speaker 1: I built the entire business in Atlanta. Atlanta was the
Speaker 1: place where young entrepreneur, could you know, pay cheap rent
Speaker 1: and build something significant. I had incredible mentors and so
Speaker 1: port there from guys like Shaka Zulu who was ludacrous
Speaker 1: as manager, to this guy Shakier Stewart passed away who
Speaker 1: was one of the first people who believed in me.
Speaker 1: Then Steve Rifkin came in my life and I signed
Speaker 1: Asher Roth. I ended up staying there until I realized
Speaker 1: there was one year where two weeks out of the
Speaker 1: year I slept in my own bed, and I always
Speaker 1: on breaks be find myself in l A and New York,
Speaker 1: and I knew I needed to make a change, and
Speaker 1: I decided to move to l A. I still own
Speaker 1: my apartment in Atlanta. Is it available in Airbnb? It
Speaker 1: is not. It is the apartment that I discovered justin Bieber.
Speaker 1: Funny enough, that's pretty cool. So you're in Atlanta, you're
Speaker 1: working for a company, and then you go out on
Speaker 1: your own. What happened there? I'm working for Jermaine. I
Speaker 1: decided to stop doing parties Cold Turkey because I wanted
Speaker 1: to stop being labeled a promoter when I was this
Speaker 1: young VP and everyone still said, oh, he's a big promoter.
Speaker 1: I don't like labels. I think that's what kind of
Speaker 1: encourages me to jump from one thing to the next.
Speaker 1: I don't like being listed as anything. Entrepreneur is all
Speaker 1: I really want, or Dad that would work for me too.
Speaker 1: I would like to say that I had the courage
Speaker 1: like a Jimmy Ivan when he could just walk away.
Speaker 1: It starts with me new But I didn't have that courage.
Speaker 1: I had the idea, I knew it's what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do, but I was still scared. I was scared
Speaker 1: of being this young VP and having the credibility of
Speaker 1: Germaine and what am I without it? And sometimes the
Speaker 1: universe has an incredible way of fixing things for you
Speaker 1: when you don't have the courage. And one day something
Speaker 1: happened at the office and I was let go, not
Speaker 1: by Germaine, by his mom um Jermaine. I went to
Speaker 1: go see him like are you kidding me? Like I'm
Speaker 1: one of the you know, the winners here, and he said,
Speaker 1: I'll just give it two more weeks and I'll figure
Speaker 1: it out. And I realized, this isn't where I want
Speaker 1: to have a career the rest of my life. This
Speaker 1: is actually what I wanted. I was just too scared.
Speaker 1: I drove to this Kroger parking lot near my apartment
Speaker 1: and I remember sitting on the hood of my car
Speaker 1: being like, what the hell am I going to do? Now?
Speaker 1: My brother was backpacking, you know, roughing around South America,
Speaker 1: and I had been reading his blog journal entries fifteen
Speaker 1: dollar bus rides and five dollar hostels, and I bought
Speaker 1: a one way ticket to Chile, bought a backpack, filled
Speaker 1: it up, and I left for a month. And I
Speaker 1: always thought backpacking was the thing, like rich kids did
Speaker 1: to escape their lives. And I realized when I was
Speaker 1: down there, these aren't rich kids, and these people are
Speaker 1: actually living adventures. Every single day they wake up and
Speaker 1: they're going to do something new. They're not just going
Speaker 1: back to the same old thing. It not only re
Speaker 1: energized me, but it restored my faith in humanity because
Speaker 1: I was dealing with a cash business in Atlanta, Georgia
Speaker 1: when Atlanta, Georgia was dangerous. I just didn't trust people
Speaker 1: at that point. I was looking for a snake everywhere
Speaker 1: I went. Now I'm in this hostel and my brothers like, yeah,
Speaker 1: put your bag over there, and I'm like, where do
Speaker 1: we lock things up, and he's like, oh, you just
Speaker 1: have to trust people. I'm like, we don't know these people,
Speaker 1: and he goes, you gotta believe. By the way, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't encourage people to live like that. I don't. I
Speaker 1: locked my doors, but it did make me realize the
Speaker 1: better way to live is to live thinking something good
Speaker 1: is going to happen, and then assuming something bad is
Speaker 1: going to happen. And when I came back, I chose
Speaker 1: to make that decision on how I wanted to live.
Speaker 1: Started my own company, did a big deal for Ludicrous.
Speaker 1: So I had a calling card in marketing, and I said,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sign acts that no one wants, and I'm
Speaker 1: gonna prove my thesis with social media. And you found
Speaker 1: Justin Bieber, first Astra Roth on my Space and then
Speaker 1: Justin Bieber on YouTube. Your thesis was social media. No
Speaker 1: one knew about it. You knew about it. They were
Speaker 1: too old, too out of touch. Yeah. I mean I'm
Speaker 1: sitting here with my Space, you know, seeing people use music,
Speaker 1: and then with YouTube, I'm like, this is touching people
Speaker 1: all around the world. These views are getting bigger and bigger.
Speaker 1: I could see the analytics on where it's happening in
Speaker 1: different countries, and every time I bring it up to someone,
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, YouTube stars don't become real stars. And
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, look at the views and now it's
Speaker 1: you know, commonplace and ours are like what are your
Speaker 1: YouTube views? And but when I did this, people thought
Speaker 1: I was crazy. I mean I went to every label
Speaker 1: and every label was saying no to me. They were like, Scooter,
Speaker 1: your grade at marketing, but like, it's a YouTube kid,
Speaker 1: And I'm like, you guys are not understanding. There's a
Speaker 1: sleeping giant over here. You're not paying attention. I had
Speaker 1: one of the most impressive executives in music history, tell
Speaker 1: me where's the sex appeal? He's a young kid. I
Speaker 1: don't get it. There's no sex appeal. And then I said,
Speaker 1: well you need to look at YouTube and this person
Speaker 1: who's running a major, major label group. They said, well,
Speaker 1: can you get us a DVD? And I said, you
Speaker 1: just all I gotta do is type it in and
Speaker 1: look at the YouTube numbers. And they said, well, he
Speaker 1: doesn't use the internet. I said, how do you not
Speaker 1: use the internet if you're running a major label group
Speaker 1: with the future of where music is going? And I
Speaker 1: realized there's a big opportunity here. I was able to
Speaker 1: team up with Usher and I wanted a label deal
Speaker 1: for us, and I was just like, I'll help you
Speaker 1: get this deal. Took six months to get the deal
Speaker 1: done because no one believed get the deal done, and
Speaker 1: then they don't open a budget for me. And I
Speaker 1: had to go to Tricky Stewart and Dream, who I
Speaker 1: was friends with, and get them to produce Justin's record
Speaker 1: with me for free. I made the first eight songs
Speaker 1: for free on SPEC out of my relationships because I
Speaker 1: couldn't get a budget opened from the major label. There
Speaker 1: was someone at the label who I was excited to
Speaker 1: work with, who went to l A and said, don't
Speaker 1: make me work with the Internet kid. And that's always
Speaker 1: how it works. It's the things that no one pays attention.
Speaker 1: So when you played the songs said they say, wow,
Speaker 1: this is great. No, they didn't get it. They were like,
Speaker 1: oh this is this has better we thought, but like,
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do with this kid? There's a
Speaker 1: longer story and how it happened. In our movie, we
Speaker 1: definitely made it look like you know, boom boom boom,
Speaker 1: but it's just great things don't happen that way. Great
Speaker 1: things like Ariana Grande, she was on Nickelodeon. Why is
Speaker 1: she not have a record deal with Nickelodeon because they said, yes,
Speaker 1: you can leave. You know you're not a recording artist.
Speaker 1: People all the time pass over on the great things.
Speaker 1: If everybody is paying attention, it wants it. I usually
Speaker 1: shy away. Do you think that people pigeonhole people and
Speaker 1: miss opportunities because they can't see anybody any broader than
Speaker 1: what they initially thought somebody was. Drives me crazy. Drives
Speaker 1: me crazy when I see people say I saw that
Speaker 1: three years ago, things evolved. If you saw it three
Speaker 1: years ago and they actually took your advice, they should
Speaker 1: come back better than they were before. But if you're
Speaker 1: not taking the time to look at something because you've
Speaker 1: already created a narrative in your head, you're missing out
Speaker 1: an opportunity. And by the way, there are going to
Speaker 1: be things in my career that I've missed out on.
Speaker 1: I always leave a meeting saying the same thing. If
Speaker 1: you leave here and you proved me wrong in the
Speaker 1: years to come, good on you. I'm rooting for you.
Speaker 1: I've got a few more questions for Scooter from why
Speaker 1: you decided to cold call David Geffen how you think
Speaker 1: about your investments. But before we get to that, let's
Speaker 1: take a quick break. Welcome back to math and magic.
Speaker 1: We're sitting here today with the genius of marketing, Scooter Braun.
Speaker 1: You're new, Scooter Braun, You're not the Internet kid anymore.
Speaker 1: Still feel like that kid? But when you go in now,
Speaker 1: do people still say I saw that three years ago?
Speaker 1: Or do they trust? You? Probably see something they don't see. No,
Speaker 1: now they trust. But I also, can I be honest
Speaker 1: with you, I probably was better then. I'm thirty seven,
Speaker 1: about thirty eight years old in June. This is a
Speaker 1: youth driven business. I now want the young kids. I
Speaker 1: want those kids telling me what's next, because I'd be
Speaker 1: naive if I could tell you I'm as good of
Speaker 1: an A and R as I was at twenty seven
Speaker 1: or twenty five or twenty two. That's bs. So now
Speaker 1: that I have the power and the trust, I need
Speaker 1: to share that with young people who are telling me
Speaker 1: what's next, because I cannot be as good as I
Speaker 1: used to be. It's just not how it works. When
Speaker 1: the first people I've heard talk about that, when we
Speaker 1: started MTV. We roll in our twenties and we used
Speaker 1: to say, no one over the age of thirty has
Speaker 1: any good ideas, So let's keep hiring that two year
Speaker 1: old and populate the channel with it. And by the way,
Speaker 1: for many, many years they did that. So talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about the creative process. You know, you're talking
Speaker 1: about finding stuff, not being caught in stereotypes, not letting
Speaker 1: past narratives cloud your view of the future. How do
Speaker 1: you think the creative process works? And you know, at
Speaker 1: the heart of it, sort of what do you think
Speaker 1: creativity is and how do you spot it? It's a
Speaker 1: very interesting, hard question to answer. When it comes to music.
Speaker 1: The artists I work with usually have extraordinary ears because
Speaker 1: they're artists. What they hear is not what the general
Speaker 1: public is going to hear. That's why most artists aren't
Speaker 1: great a and rs of their own projects, and they,
Speaker 1: you know, need help deciding what they hit is. Most
Speaker 1: artists don't even like their hits. My job is to
Speaker 1: be the person with the ordinary ears in the room.
Speaker 1: If I like it, millions of other people should like it,
Speaker 1: because there's nothing extraordinary about me. My job is to
Speaker 1: help them understand what the consumer would gravitate towards and
Speaker 1: find that middle ground where we're still pushing the needle
Speaker 1: and that following the consumer. How big a fight is that.
Speaker 1: I think it's not a fight if you show each
Speaker 1: other mutual respect and you actually earn respect over time.
Speaker 1: If you're just yelling at someone and say you need
Speaker 1: to listen to me, I don't think that's a good
Speaker 1: way to do anything. You have to start from a
Speaker 1: place of respect and meet in the middle. It's definitely
Speaker 1: been an interesting dynamic over the years getting to some
Speaker 1: of these hits. Sometimes if they just walk into the
Speaker 1: door and they got it. Sometimes it's a narrative and
Speaker 1: a dance, and sometimes I'm wrong, sometimes they're wrong, but
Speaker 1: we create a rapport and we act like family towards
Speaker 1: each other and we get results. The one common thing
Speaker 1: when you talk about creativity in the process, I don't
Speaker 1: think there's a substitute for passion. That's the one thing
Speaker 1: I think is consistent. Whether it be an entrepreneur you're
Speaker 1: betting on or an artist you're betting on. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of talented people in the world in all walks
Speaker 1: of life. I don't believe talent is enough. Sometimes it's
Speaker 1: enough to get you a moment, but I don't think
Speaker 1: it's enough to ever make you sustain. There's too many
Speaker 1: talented people in the world. There's moments where Ariana this
Speaker 1: album she made, it happened quickly, it was magic. She
Speaker 1: just kept writing. All the passion came out boom. There
Speaker 1: are times where artists needs, you know, purpose. With Justin
Speaker 1: it was a year writing, writing, writing, then finally discovering
Speaker 1: the path, but the passion was there in both respects.
Speaker 1: So you know, talking about this broad view of creativity
Speaker 1: and business sounds an awful like your mentor David Geff
Speaker 1: extraordinary investor, extraordinary talent manager, record company executive films had
Speaker 1: a good run that guy, Yeah, exactly, real estate name.
Speaker 1: What have you learned from David or did you find
Speaker 1: you were just sort of in sync with David. It's
Speaker 1: not what I learned, it's what I continue to learn.
Speaker 1: And my biggest pinched me moment in my life is
Speaker 1: probably that you even can say that that person is
Speaker 1: my mentor. I read about David when I was nineteen
Speaker 1: years old. He was the inspiration for me to go
Speaker 1: towards this career path. I remember sitting in my dorm
Speaker 1: room freshman year, reading about David going after John Lennon's
Speaker 1: solo career and yelling out loud, go to yoko Ono,
Speaker 1: and then turning the page and seeing David was the
Speaker 1: one person who went to Yokoo, and having this revelation
Speaker 1: that I think, like this, I can do this, and
Speaker 1: David saying, movies take years, TV takes years, finance could
Speaker 1: take years. A song can change your life in a night.
Speaker 1: When I was thirty, Jimmy Iven introduced us quickly at
Speaker 1: a restaurant, and then I decided about a month later
Speaker 1: to pick up the phone and cold call his office
Speaker 1: to say thank you to him for the inspiration. And
Speaker 1: he was kind of appreciative, but very like, I gotta
Speaker 1: go onto my next thing. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: he's never gonna speak to me again. And when I
Speaker 1: got to the office the next day, his assistant had
Speaker 1: called and said, David wants to have lunch with you.
Speaker 1: Next week's on your schedule. And that first lunch was
Speaker 1: three hours. We've been having lunch and dinner ever since,
Speaker 1: for the last seven years. And when that man loves you,
Speaker 1: he loves you. We have never done business together. We
Speaker 1: have no intention of doing business together. But he is
Speaker 1: passionate about giving me real advice. He's passionate about making me,
Speaker 1: in his mind, better than he was as a person.
Speaker 1: All I wanted my whole life from that point in
Speaker 1: nineteen years old was to have the advice of someone
Speaker 1: like David Geffen and now I have it. And it's
Speaker 1: a really great thing when someone lives up to your
Speaker 1: expectation of them, and he has for me. It's interesting
Speaker 1: with David. He's i think, reached out to a lot
Speaker 1: of people and has mentored them, did for me and
Speaker 1: a period of my career when I really needed it,
Speaker 1: and wants nothing in return. Thing do you do that
Speaker 1: with others? Yes? No one's gonna say when they die,
Speaker 1: guess what deal I did? You know they're going to
Speaker 1: look back on the deep conversations, the moments with their family,
Speaker 1: their moments of their friends. What did I do? And
Speaker 1: then you're gone. What's the point of not lifting someone up.
Speaker 1: That's the greatest thing you can do for your legacy.
Speaker 1: You know, when you're gone, you want someone to speak
Speaker 1: highly of you and say they helped me and they
Speaker 1: asked for nothing in return. In addition to mentoring people,
Speaker 1: you've also helped a lot of people. Your chair the
Speaker 1: advisory board of Pencils for Promise, if you are on
Speaker 1: the board of cancer organizations started by your wife, make
Speaker 1: a wish. I think your organizations fulfill more wishes than
Speaker 1: anyone else. You raised about seventy million dollars for Hurricane
Speaker 1: Harvey relief, twenty million for One Love Manchester. What drives
Speaker 1: you and how do you think about that in relation
Speaker 1: to the rest of your life. I just think it's
Speaker 1: so crazy what's happened in my life that the idea
Speaker 1: that you don't share and give back is absurd. What
Speaker 1: is the point of continually pouring water into one glass.
Speaker 1: It's going to overflow and just make a mess. You
Speaker 1: have to pour the water into other glasses before you
Speaker 1: make the mess. The most gratifying parts of my professional
Speaker 1: career have been concerts helping others. I wish those tragedies
Speaker 1: didn't happen, but it was incredibly gratifying for myself, my team,
Speaker 1: and the artist that I work with. To be a
Speaker 1: part of the Children's March, to be a part of
Speaker 1: One Love Manchester, to be a part of the hurricane relief.
Speaker 1: There's fifty percent that you should do publicly, and then
Speaker 1: there's fifty percent you should do privately because theft you
Speaker 1: do publicly, you're gonna get criticized. People say you're doing
Speaker 1: it for the wrong reasons. Who cares what they say.
Speaker 1: They're haters, that's their own bullshit. But you need to
Speaker 1: do publicly to inspire others to do the same. I
Speaker 1: know what I come from, and I know that the
Speaker 1: person in need was just a generation to go for
Speaker 1: my family. My grandparents were Holocaust concentration camp survivors. My
Speaker 1: mom grew up with very little. I want to set
Speaker 1: that example for my kids, make sure they understand that
Speaker 1: that's a legacy they have to keep going forward. So
Speaker 1: let's move on to the future. What's the future of
Speaker 1: the music business as we know it? The record companies, managers, publishers. Look,
Speaker 1: I think the great part of the music business in
Speaker 1: general is that there's never a supply and demand issue.
Speaker 1: People are always gonna want music. The question is how
Speaker 1: do you monetize it and how is it distributed. I
Speaker 1: think things are on the rise because there have been
Speaker 1: gigantic populations outside of this country India, China that have
Speaker 1: never been monetized before. Southeast Asia never been monetized before
Speaker 1: huge populations that love music. I've toured there, they love music,
Speaker 1: and the monetization through streaming is coming for those areas.
Speaker 1: So I think we're about to see a very, very
Speaker 1: big growth for the music business. I think whoever is
Speaker 1: closest to the artists will always play an important roles,
Speaker 1: So managers will play an important role. But I think
Speaker 1: value is going to be an ownership of assets. As
Speaker 1: I move forward, I want to continue doing the service
Speaker 1: business because I enjoy it. I love the artist that
Speaker 1: I work with. I love being a part of their journey.
Speaker 1: I went to Ariana's opening night last night, and knowing
Speaker 1: the hard work that she put in and how remarkable
Speaker 1: the show is. I get joy out of seeing her
Speaker 1: happiness and the happiness of her fans. But she and
Speaker 1: I have to go now build access for her, something
Speaker 1: that's sustainable, so she doesn't have to walk on stage
Speaker 1: every single night, and she can take a break and
Speaker 1: start a family some day if she wanted. So Uber, Spotify, Pinterest,
Speaker 1: you are early invested in all and then left left
Speaker 1: and so we look at those businesses. Are those businesses
Speaker 1: that you think are fully priced or do you think
Speaker 1: they have so much growth ahead of them that people
Speaker 1: don't point. I really don't know. I'm not I don't know.
Speaker 1: I know these are great businesses. I know that the
Speaker 1: opportunity for growth is there, that the value in the
Speaker 1: future is there. You talk about a grab or an
Speaker 1: uber or a lift, which are all rides sharing services
Speaker 1: and payment services. The amount of the population that is
Speaker 1: actually using them is still very, very low. So the
Speaker 1: opportunity for how big they can become. Could they become
Speaker 1: trillion dollar business? And that you You really don't know.
Speaker 1: But they're great, great businesses, and I was lucky enough
Speaker 1: to be around them early enough, so you've had as
Speaker 1: good a nose for investments as you've had for music.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe it's okay, let's say you have.
Speaker 1: I think both of them I got lucky. I think
Speaker 1: you've made your luck. But let's move into what do
Speaker 1: you look at into business passion? So you look at
Speaker 1: a person, not the idea. I'd like to look at
Speaker 1: the idea and understand it. But if you meet someone
Speaker 1: who has a burned the ship's mentality and what do
Speaker 1: I mean by burn the ships? You and I have
Speaker 1: talked about this before. It's you arrive on the shores
Speaker 1: your enemy. The generals say, the only way you go
Speaker 1: home to your families is if you take the ships
Speaker 1: of your enemies. There is no retreat. Burned the ships.
Speaker 1: When you meet an entrepreneur who has a burned the
Speaker 1: ship's mentality, it doesn't matter what they're starting. They will
Speaker 1: pivot and move until they figure it out. And that's
Speaker 1: what you want to see. When someone says I'm a
Speaker 1: serial entrepreneur, run for the hills, all that means is
Speaker 1: they start a lot of businesses. When I met Travis
Speaker 1: from Uber burn the Ships. Funny enough, his competitor John
Speaker 1: Zimmer burned the Ships, Anthony from Burn the Ships. These
Speaker 1: people are relentless. They will not give up, They will
Speaker 1: not be silenced. Like they are going to figure it out.
Speaker 1: You see the same thing an artist. That's what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about, passion and all in all aspects. Ariana. You
Speaker 1: know she's gone through a lot of stuff the last
Speaker 1: couple of years, but I know she is so much
Speaker 1: stronger than even she realizes. I've seen it. She has
Speaker 1: had really hard, hard times in dark moments, but she
Speaker 1: always prevails because she is not a quitter. Justin is
Speaker 1: not a quitter. You know, before purpose we had so
Speaker 1: many people talking ship. But he is not a quitter.
Speaker 1: And I think when you see people with that kind
Speaker 1: of passion, when you see the people with that kind
Speaker 1: of drive, get on board and hold on tight. So
Speaker 1: we'll go back to the future about social Social media
Speaker 1: has changed my life. It has helped me build my career.
Speaker 1: But I also see how people who made social media
Speaker 1: are not allowing their children to participate. There's something to
Speaker 1: be said for that. It isn't evil. It is a
Speaker 1: very good thing. That's something bad can happen in a
Speaker 1: country across the world and we can care because of
Speaker 1: social media. That is incredible thing that's happening. But it
Speaker 1: isn't good when the person right next to you is struggling,
Speaker 1: you can't see it. Everything has to become kind of
Speaker 1: a balance. We have to start with our own relationships,
Speaker 1: stop trying to scale it to how do we change
Speaker 1: lives for millions of people? Start with five people, Start
Speaker 1: with your core people around you that you love, and
Speaker 1: start asking them, are you okay? Let's shut off our phones,
Speaker 1: Let's go for a drink, Let's go for an activity
Speaker 1: of coffee. Just engage with people on a one on
Speaker 1: one and your life will be better and so were
Speaker 1: there's do you shut yourself? Yeah, there are times I
Speaker 1: definitely shut up. I'm getting better about it. I still
Speaker 1: need to work on it. Forecast, you've been around radio,
Speaker 1: You've been a great partner of ours at I heart
Speaker 1: for ever and ever. What do you think of the
Speaker 1: future of audio? And I'm really talking radio, streaming, music services,
Speaker 1: podcast look, trends are trends. People like audio. You know,
Speaker 1: Spotify as announced they're going to spend half a billion
Speaker 1: dollars on podcast this year alone. Asia. Podcasts are huge.
Speaker 1: People still enjoy a conversation, they like driving somewhere and
Speaker 1: being able to listen to something. They're thirsty for conversation,
Speaker 1: They're thirsty for knowledge. So I think the future of
Speaker 1: audio is bright. You've hit all of the stuff that
Speaker 1: you dreamed of. Did you ever dream you'd be here?
Speaker 1: Yes and no. I dreamed of what would that be like?
Speaker 1: But I didn't think when I realized how hard it
Speaker 1: was to make five grand I was like, that doesn't
Speaker 1: seem feasible. And now I realized it's not monetary things
Speaker 1: that have anything to do with what I think about
Speaker 1: a success. My holding companies called Ithaca, and someone asked me, like,
Speaker 1: did you go to Cornell? You go to Ithaca? Like, no,
Speaker 1: I didn't. Ithaca is based on a Greek poem by
Speaker 1: Cafafi called Ithaca. David Geffen showed me this poem, and
Speaker 1: it basically says, You're journeying to the island of Ithaca,
Speaker 1: one of the Greek islands, and along your journey you'll
Speaker 1: only see monsters like Lithogonian cyclops if you let them
Speaker 1: into your heart. I only have negativity if you let
Speaker 1: it in. And along the way you'll meet great philosophers
Speaker 1: and you'll see amazing things. And if you reach Ithaca
Speaker 1: and you find her poor, she did not fool you
Speaker 1: because it was always about the journey. And I think
Speaker 1: that's life. I'm on a journey. There's gonna be ups
Speaker 1: and downs. No matter how much success I get. I
Speaker 1: will have nights that I still still cry myself to
Speaker 1: sleep because I'm scared of what tomorrow brings. And it's
Speaker 1: an up and down journey. There's days you're happy and
Speaker 1: there's days you're sad, and that's just what life is.
Speaker 1: And you continue the journey, you have fun. I try
Speaker 1: to do right by others because it doesn't make sense
Speaker 1: to me why this happened to me. But I'm grateful
Speaker 1: for it, and I don't believe the blessings continue unless
Speaker 1: I give blessings. So I gotta keep pouring into other
Speaker 1: glasses so mine doesn't make a mess. We've talked about
Speaker 1: this incredible success you've had. Tell me about the failures
Speaker 1: along the way. There's nothing that's really a failure unless
Speaker 1: you did something malicious and shameful. Otherwise you should have
Speaker 1: no regrets. They're teaching moments I can put on this
Speaker 1: perfect picture of success and confidence and everything else just
Speaker 1: not realistic. It's not real. I still question things all
Speaker 1: the time. I questioned myself. I questioned my own motives.
Speaker 1: I questioned my need to sometimes tell people about my
Speaker 1: success because of how insecure I am in the moment
Speaker 1: that I want them to know what I've done, because
Speaker 1: I might not be enough. Because I always thought vulnerability
Speaker 1: was a bad thing. I didn't understand it was a strength.
Speaker 1: And there were a few people along the way they
Speaker 1: taught me that. One of the people who did that
Speaker 1: for me, who didn't know they did it, was a
Speaker 1: guy who admired from a distance. Dinner relationship. One day,
Speaker 1: I got an email and the purpose said I want
Speaker 1: to come see you, and they came over to my
Speaker 1: house and I just thought, oh, they're coming to see me,
Speaker 1: and they're gonna come talk business and what can we
Speaker 1: do together and everything else. And this person didn't talk
Speaker 1: any business. This person talked to me about their life.
Speaker 1: They asked me questions about my life, and they said,
Speaker 1: I just wanted to get to know you. And I
Speaker 1: walked away realizing how much respect I had for that person,
Speaker 1: how much I appreciated them taking the time, and how
Speaker 1: I need to do more of that in my life.
Speaker 1: And person's name was Bob Pittman. Came to my house,
Speaker 1: sat with me, didn't ask me for any business, and
Speaker 1: you took time to get to know me and took
Speaker 1: hours out of your day for no reason whatsoever, with
Speaker 1: no agenda, to say, I've admired you from a distance
Speaker 1: and I want you to know who I am and
Speaker 1: I want to know you. And you've never asked for
Speaker 1: anything in return. And it was an important lesson in
Speaker 1: my life of how to treat people. So thank you, well,
Speaker 1: you're very nice. Thank you. So let's end with and
Speaker 1: this podcast it's math and Magic, excluding you, who's the
Speaker 1: greatest mathematician, you know, that analytical type who just blows
Speaker 1: your mind. I really admire Howard Marks from Oakstrey Capital.
Speaker 1: I think he's a really really brilliant guy. But he
Speaker 1: also looks at it and all the right ways and
Speaker 1: all the right angles, and I admire so the greatest
Speaker 1: magician David geff Is analytical skills are pretty good too, incredible.
Speaker 1: Thanks Scooter for giving us the time today. Appreciate great
Speaker 1: lessons from somebody who's done it the right way. Thanks.
Speaker 1: That's it for today's episode. Thanks so much for listening
Speaker 1: to Math and Magic, a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: This show is hosted by Bob Pittman. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Sue Schillinger for booking and wrangling our wonderful talent, which
Speaker 1: is no small feat Nikki Etre for pulling research bill plaques,
Speaker 1: and Michael Azar for their recording help, our editor Ryan Murdoch,
Speaker 1: and of course Gayle Raoul, Eric Angel, Noel Mango and
Speaker 1: everyone who helped bring this show to your ears. Until
Speaker 1: next time,