Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Hello, and welcome back to the podcast.
Speaker 1: To the show. I hope you've been amazing and you're
Speaker 1: feeling loved and motivated inspired by your life At the moment,
Speaker 1: I'm feeling great. But if not, well, maybe this episode
Speaker 1: can explain just an aspect of why that may not
Speaker 1: be the case. I'm guessing if you're listening to this,
Speaker 1: if you clicked on this, then this topic probably resonates
Speaker 1: for you in many ways. So let's not waste any
Speaker 1: more valuable time. I have a lot to discuss today,
Speaker 1: but I don't want to make another fifty minute episode
Speaker 1: like I did a couple of weeks ago. I've realized recently.
Speaker 1: Sorry here I go rambling, not even a minute in,
Speaker 1: but I realize that listening to one of my episodes
Speaker 1: normally takes the same amount of time for me as
Speaker 1: it does to get to my local beach between twenty
Speaker 1: two to thirty minutes. Hence why I'm trying to keep
Speaker 1: them more bite sized. How sweet, Yes, I do listen
Speaker 1: to my own podcast in the car, and yes it's
Speaker 1: strictly for professional purposes and reasons, because I don't always
Speaker 1: listen over them when I press published, because I am lazy,
Speaker 1: so I have to do my due diligence later on. Anyhow,
Speaker 1: today we're talking about people pleasing, what it is, how
Speaker 1: to break the cycle, the trouble it gets us into,
Speaker 1: and why you're kind of getting in your own way
Speaker 1: by refusing to say no. This episode was inspired by
Speaker 1: many conversations. Is one of my bestest of friends, Aaron,
Speaker 1: and one of my most loyal listeners. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I miss her. I miss her so much, but shout
Speaker 1: out if you're listening, which you probably are, I'll see
Speaker 1: you soon. But we chat about this a lot because
Speaker 1: I think it's a behavioral pattern we both fall into
Speaker 1: quite frequently, and it came up recently because she was
Speaker 1: up in Sydney for my birthday and while she was here,
Speaker 1: I was talking about how I was almost anxious because
Speaker 1: if I didn't enjoy myself, even if I didn't enjoy myself, sorry,
Speaker 1: I wanted everyone else to be having a really good time.
Speaker 1: I wanted them to be happy. And she said Gemma,
Speaker 1: that's people pleasing to a tea, and here we are
Speaker 1: doing an episode on it. Strap in and get ready
Speaker 1: to learn. The idea of people pleasing has had a
Speaker 1: pretty steady rise in pop culture and psychology. Pop culture,
Speaker 1: I guess, these last few years. I think probably due
Speaker 1: to the increasingly individual nature the trend or kind of
Speaker 1: perspective of psychology in its applications to our lives, and
Speaker 1: the focus on self growth and self awareness, and the
Speaker 1: idea is also quite a recent one, the idea of
Speaker 1: people pleasing. Obviously, the behavior has been around for a while.
Speaker 1: We just haven't always, I guess, had a name for it.
Speaker 1: But there have even been like poems written about it.
Speaker 1: So one is pretty dramatic. I found it when I
Speaker 1: was researching this episode, and I thought it was quite funny. Wait,
Speaker 1: let me read a line. Where is it I always
Speaker 1: say yes, can never say nerves swallow or hurt, Let
Speaker 1: no feelings show. He insulted me badly, called me the
Speaker 1: son of a boy. I just rolled over saying kick me,
Speaker 1: kick me more. Some very dramatic lines from that poet,
Speaker 1: Alan Bruce Thompson, thank you, thank you for your inspiring,
Speaker 1: if not depressing lyric Alan. But I don't know why
Speaker 1: I said that, but I think it's just interesting. I
Speaker 1: don't know why I felt the need to cite this
Speaker 1: poem that I had in my research, but I think
Speaker 1: it's just an indicator of how long this behavior has
Speaker 1: kind of been part of a dialogue around our interactions
Speaker 1: with other people, and people pleasing has become such a
Speaker 1: popular term, though, that it has wait for its own
Speaker 1: web md page. Yes, ladies and gentlemen, you know the
Speaker 1: site you go to check if your headache may be
Speaker 1: an I know cancer, Well, that site can now diagnose
Speaker 1: you with people pleasing. It's also inspired numerous psychology books
Speaker 1: such as The Disease to Please and When It's Never
Speaker 1: About You, titles that are almost as dramatic as our
Speaker 1: friend Alan's poem, but you get the gist. People pleasing
Speaker 1: is now a pretty common popular part of daily psychobabble.
Speaker 1: So what is people pleasing? Yes? It does kind of
Speaker 1: say it all in the name, but let's dig a
Speaker 1: little deeper, as we tend to do in this podcast. Essentially,
Speaker 1: people pleasers are those who cannot maintain clear boundaries with
Speaker 1: others and do really whatever it takes essentially to make
Speaker 1: other people happy. They're often highly attuned to others and
Speaker 1: seen as agreeable, helpful, really kind. However, people pleasers may
Speaker 1: have trouble advocating for themselves, which can lea tom to
Speaker 1: a pretty harmful pattern of self safricrificed and self neglect.
Speaker 1: I think Whilst it's generally seen as a positive attribute
Speaker 1: to want to help others and act pro socially and
Speaker 1: in a way that kind of aligns with this entrenched
Speaker 1: altruistic norm, when we begin to see ourselves as second
Speaker 1: to the needs of others, you will inevitably end up
Speaker 1: depleted and anxious, and you also tend to experience disconnect
Speaker 1: with yourself and become unable to recognize or express what
Speaker 1: you need from a situation or from others in your
Speaker 1: lives life. I've kind of said already a key element
Speaker 1: of people pleasing is that it generally goes beyond simple kindness.
Speaker 1: It involves editing or altering words and behaviors for the
Speaker 1: sake of another person's feelings or reactions. And that was
Speaker 1: explained by Erica Myers, and she's a therapist in the
Speaker 1: US at the University of Oregon. This is what else
Speaker 1: she kind of had to say, you might go out
Speaker 1: of your way to do things for the people in
Speaker 1: your life based on what you assume what you assume
Speaker 1: they want or need, and you give up your time
Speaker 1: and energy to get them to like you, to get
Speaker 1: them to love you more. And Meyers says that this
Speaker 1: is how people blah blah blah people pleasing. It's a
Speaker 1: bit of a tongue twist of how people pleasing can
Speaker 1: cause trouble. The urge to please others can be damaging
Speaker 1: to ourselves and potentially to our relationships when we allow
Speaker 1: other people's wants to have more importance than our own needs,
Speaker 1: and when we try to anticipate what others want from
Speaker 1: us without trusting that they can advocate for themselves. It's
Speaker 1: a pretty well known rule of thumb that relationships they
Speaker 1: should be equal, give and take. I think that's the
Speaker 1: I think the previous overview of people pleasing. It shouldn't
Speaker 1: be taken to mean that you can never offer assistance
Speaker 1: to others because you might be placing your second No,
Speaker 1: it's all about balance, baby. What I find really interesting
Speaker 1: with people please behaviors is how our brain literally hijacks
Speaker 1: itself to not only be better at recognizing other people's
Speaker 1: needs over our own, but happy to do things for
Speaker 1: others at our own expense. It's so counterintuitive and counter
Speaker 1: to kind of an evolutionary idea of survival. So here
Speaker 1: are some pretty typical indicators of being a people pleaser.
Speaker 1: Not just someone who's happy to help a friend, a partner,
Speaker 1: or you know, a neighbor out, but a full blown
Speaker 1: people pleaser. So you have a difficult time saying no.
Speaker 1: You're preoccupied with what others might think of you, which
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a lot later on. You
Speaker 1: feel guilty when you have to tell people know. You
Speaker 1: fear that turning people down will make them think that
Speaker 1: you are selfish. You agree to things that you don't
Speaker 1: like or do things that you don't want to do.
Speaker 1: This is really common with some of my friends. You know,
Speaker 1: they sign up for things, or they offer to help
Speaker 1: a friend out, and they just really need, you know,
Speaker 1: some alone time. It's not what they need to go
Speaker 1: and socialize more. You might struggle with feelings of low
Speaker 1: self esteem. You want people to like you, and you
Speaker 1: feel that doing things for them will in some ways
Speaker 1: earn their approval. You're always telling people sorry, and you're
Speaker 1: taking blame for things even when it isn't your fault,
Speaker 1: and think about what kind of life that would entail
Speaker 1: if you're constantly apologizing for things, always in the guilt
Speaker 1: trap our brains have created, or being so preoccupied with
Speaker 1: what others think that you can't really ever seem to
Speaker 1: consider yourself. And it's no surprise that psychologists and researchers
Speaker 1: have found heaps of known links between people pleasing and
Speaker 1: disorders like social anxiety OCD and depression. So where does
Speaker 1: this type of behavior come from? I want to jump
Speaker 1: into some very interesting links later on, mainly around trauma
Speaker 1: and gender, but before then, let's talk about some of
Speaker 1: the more typical causes of people pleasing behavior. So firstly,
Speaker 1: and we've talked about this and some of the indicators,
Speaker 1: but poor self esteem. So sometimes people engage in people
Speaker 1: please behavior because they don't value their own desires and needs,
Speaker 1: perhaps due to a lack of self confidence. People pleasers
Speaker 1: have a need for external validation and they may feel
Speaker 1: that doing things for others will lead to approval and acceptance.
Speaker 1: People pleasing behavior is not always an expression of good will.
Speaker 1: It comes from a longing to feel socially secure, and
Speaker 1: it's a symptom of a generalized fear of abandonment, which
Speaker 1: usually comes from the relationships we have with our parents
Speaker 1: or our caregivers, and a general sense of self esteem.
Speaker 1: So this other idea in psychology called self efficacy, so
Speaker 1: self esteem and self efficacy. Self efficacy, it refers to
Speaker 1: an individual's belief in their capacity to execute behaviors necessary
Speaker 1: to produce specific performance attainments. So basically, it kind of
Speaker 1: reflects your confidence in your ability to exert control over
Speaker 1: your own motivation, your social environment, and the health of
Speaker 1: your relationship. So what's really interesting about self efficacy is
Speaker 1: that researchers haven't yet been able to determine the direction
Speaker 1: of that relationship. So whether low or high self efficacy
Speaker 1: contributes to people pleasing tendencies more so, on one hand,
Speaker 1: if you feel like you do have a lot of
Speaker 1: control over the quality of your relationships, you may be
Speaker 1: more likely to engage in people pleasing behaviors because that's
Speaker 1: one of your tactics for control. But in contrast, feeling
Speaker 1: like you don't have a lot of control may lead
Speaker 1: you to overcompensate and try to constantly help others. If
Speaker 1: anyone has the answers to that conundrum link between self
Speaker 1: efficacy and people pleasing behaviors. Please let the psychological community
Speaker 1: know they'd be very interested. Perfectionism is another huge, huge
Speaker 1: determining factor of people pleasing. We've talked about this many
Speaker 1: times before on the podcast. It comes up all the time,
Speaker 1: but some times people want everything to be just so,
Speaker 1: including how other people think and feel about them. Helping
Speaker 1: others prioritizing them makes you seem more likable and keeps
Speaker 1: those people in your life. And this gives the perception
Speaker 1: of a perfect social circle and I guess a perfect life.
Speaker 1: And people pleading and perfectionism, they both come from the ego.
Speaker 1: So for those who aren't so familiar with this Freudian
Speaker 1: idea of the ego, which is different from our normal
Speaker 1: conception of the ego, is like the arrogant part of ourselves.
Speaker 1: Let me explain. So, according to Freudian theory, there are
Speaker 1: three core elements of the human psyche, the ID, the ego,
Speaker 1: and the super ego. So the ego is who we
Speaker 1: are in the present, it's the reality created by the
Speaker 1: behaviors that we express. And the super ego and the
Speaker 1: ID they're kind of like the devil and the angel.
Speaker 1: On your shoulder. These super ego represents pure morality and
Speaker 1: what society would expect us to do, and the super
Speaker 1: ego is part of the unconscious mind of the psyche
Speaker 1: that is kind of the voice of conscience and doing
Speaker 1: what is right, and this also the source of self criticism.
Speaker 1: In contrast, the sniky little id is the primitive, instinctive
Speaker 1: component of your personality. It's where intrusive thoughts come from.
Speaker 1: It contains like our urges, our impulses, and it's where
Speaker 1: Freud argues our immediate reactions are born. So then we
Speaker 1: arrive at the ego. And the ego is the part
Speaker 1: of your mind that cares about what others think, and
Speaker 1: it is kind of involved in that balancing act between
Speaker 1: our pure morals that have been conditioned into us by
Speaker 1: society and then what we really want to do. And
Speaker 1: it's what the ego is, what we are aware of
Speaker 1: when we think about ourselves, and it's what we usually
Speaker 1: try to project towards others. So this is where people
Speaker 1: please behaviors come from. It comes from the part of
Speaker 1: our brain or our mind that recognizes that we can
Speaker 1: be perceived by others and wants people to like what
Speaker 1: they see. Because of that, because of that recognition of perception,
Speaker 1: we strive to make others happy. And when our ego
Speaker 1: doesn't strike the balance or the correct balance between the
Speaker 1: super ego and the id, the side of us that
Speaker 1: makes it hard to say no and seeks excessive validation
Speaker 1: obsessively visibly from others, obsessively from others. Yes, that's the
Speaker 1: part that kind of rules its head. And like I said, perfectionism,
Speaker 1: it's a pretty cool aspect link to people pleasing. But
Speaker 1: there is another aspect that's super common amongst those of
Speaker 1: us who are more concerned with making others happy, and
Speaker 1: it's called sociotrophy. Sociotrophy is the tendency to place an
Speaker 1: inordinate value on our relationships over personal independence. So it's
Speaker 1: in direct contrast to I guess excessive independence or autonomy,
Speaker 1: which is a concern with personal achievement and control over
Speaker 1: your daily life rather than what other people think of you.
Speaker 1: So people with this trait sociotrophy, tend to have strong
Speaker 1: needs for social acceptance, which is what causes them to
Speaker 1: be overly nurturant towards people who they may not even
Speaker 1: have a close relationship with, or people they might not
Speaker 1: even like. And we can really see from kind of
Speaker 1: a very basic viewpoint why a personality trait such as
Speaker 1: this would make you more predisposed to people pleasing and
Speaker 1: that constant kind of agreeableness for the sake of others,
Speaker 1: whilst not specifically linked to people pleasing, but something interesting
Speaker 1: nonetheless is understanding this character trait. So people with sociotrophy,
Speaker 1: they also tend to react really differently than those low
Speaker 1: on this trait in situations that involve self control. So
Speaker 1: in one experiment, they had people who were rated high
Speaker 1: on the trait sociotrophy share a meal with another person
Speaker 1: who was actually an actor, and this actor was instructed
Speaker 1: to either overeat, under eat, or not eat at all.
Speaker 1: Sociotropic individuals in this experiment they consume more food or
Speaker 1: they try and match appears eating habits when they believe
Speaker 1: that doing so will make that person the actor, feel
Speaker 1: more comfortable, and this is often hypothesized as being the
Speaker 1: result of the individual attempting to achieve social approval and
Speaker 1: avoid social rejection. The social pressure and dependence can cause
Speaker 1: a loss of self control in an individual, especially if
Speaker 1: they are unaware of their desire for social acceptance. Now. Crucially,
Speaker 1: sociotrophy has been correlated with feminine or female sex role
Speaker 1: orientations in many research experiments again and again, and naturally,
Speaker 1: the prevalence of people pleasing behaviors show a similar correlation,
Speaker 1: So people pleasing is more commonly presented in women over men,
Speaker 1: which I think we could probably have assumed. One recent
Speaker 1: study found this behavior to be exhibited in the majority
Speaker 1: of female participants fifty nine percent, whilst only a minority
Speaker 1: of men I think around thirty eight percent showed similar tendencies.
Speaker 1: As a result, women are suffering from greater adverse effects
Speaker 1: on both their mental and physical health from these behaviors.
Speaker 1: The pressure that women feel to be people pleases is
Speaker 1: very real, and it comes from a lot of historical
Speaker 1: norms around female behavior and their role in society. Women
Speaker 1: are conditioned really early to be caregivers and more generous
Speaker 1: with their time and energy because of their expectant future
Speaker 1: role as mothers. Even if you don't have children, you
Speaker 1: see how other women in society act and the amount
Speaker 1: of sacrifices they're asked to make compared to their male counterparts,
Speaker 1: and a lot of these sacrifices are tied to people
Speaker 1: pleasing behaviors. This is entirely anecdotal, but a lot of
Speaker 1: my female friends they struggle saying no. They struggle establishing
Speaker 1: boundaries at work with partners and their friends, never having
Speaker 1: free time because they always have things to do with
Speaker 1: or for other people. And I'm not saying it's a
Speaker 1: purely gendered thing, but the research doesn't lie. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a man's world. Women are just holding it up
Speaker 1: without people pleasing behaviors. People pleasing behaviors, As we've kind
Speaker 1: of mentioned, they often lead to people taking advantage of you,
Speaker 1: which is why our twenties are such a formative year
Speaker 1: for setting those boundaries and putting ourselves first. Some people
Speaker 1: are really good, specifically sociopaths and narcissists. They're really good
Speaker 1: at recognizing and taking advantage of people who display people
Speaker 1: pleasing tendencies. They may not be able to name their behavior,
Speaker 1: but they do know that you'll agree to whatever they
Speaker 1: are so they'll keep on asking and you keep saying
Speaker 1: yes because you want to keep them happy. And this
Speaker 1: can put you at higher risk of manipulation or mental
Speaker 1: or emotional abuse, even financial problems if people ask you
Speaker 1: for monetary assistance, We've talked about this a bit as well,
Speaker 1: but it can also be a real challenge to establishing healthy,
Speaker 1: long term relationships. Healthy strong, especially romantic relationships. They're balanced
Speaker 1: and they involve give and take. You do nice things
Speaker 1: for your loved ones and they do the same for you.
Speaker 1: You probably won't have very fulfilling romantic relationships when you
Speaker 1: feel like people will only like you if you do nice,
Speaker 1: excessive things for them affection. It's not a commodity. When
Speaker 1: all you do is give to others to present yourself
Speaker 1: as the person you think they want, you're not showing
Speaker 1: up in the relationship as yourself, and it's difficult to maintain,
Speaker 1: much less feel satisfied with when you aren't actually present
Speaker 1: in your relationship. Also, i'm super super sorry if you've
Speaker 1: had to learn this the hard way. But giving everything
Speaker 1: to other people, especially a partner or someone you love,
Speaker 1: thinking it will make them love you, doing things for them,
Speaker 1: going out of your way to constantly serve them, teaching
Speaker 1: them things, buying them things, letting them walk all over
Speaker 1: you will never convince them to love you more. And
Speaker 1: I know that can be where some of these people
Speaker 1: pleasing behaviors in romantic relationships can come from because you
Speaker 1: think that if you give more and sacrifice more for
Speaker 1: their happiness, you'll become someone they can't live without. They'll
Speaker 1: turn around, they'll recognize how amazing you are. And it's
Speaker 1: just never going to be the case. I've learned this
Speaker 1: time and time again. It never changes. Either they don't
Speaker 1: recognize it, or they just assume that you like doing it.
Speaker 1: I guess none of this is looking particularly pretty, I know,
Speaker 1: So how do we change it and get out of
Speaker 1: our own way with these people pleasing tendencies? Firstly, show
Speaker 1: kindness when you mean it. It's perfectly fine and even
Speaker 1: a really good thing for your mental health to practice kindness.
Speaker 1: But kindness it doesn't come from a desire to earn approval,
Speaker 1: and it generally doesn't involve any motive beyond wanting to
Speaker 1: make things better for someone else. Before you offer words
Speaker 1: of affirmation or help, consider your intentions and how that
Speaker 1: act will make you feel. Does the opportunity to help
Speaker 1: someone else bring you joy or do you think it's
Speaker 1: going to make you resentful or you're going to feel unappreciated.
Speaker 1: Practice putting yourself first. You need energy and emotional resources
Speaker 1: to help others and if you don't take care of yourself,
Speaker 1: you won't be able or capable of doing anything for
Speaker 1: anyone else in the future. Putting your needs first isn't selfish,
Speaker 1: it's actually quite healthy. You know, it's okay to be
Speaker 1: a giving, caring person, but it's also important to honor
Speaker 1: and tend to our own needs. Keep in mind that
Speaker 1: needs can involve things like offering your opinion in a
Speaker 1: work meeting, getting comfortable with your emotions and feelings, and
Speaker 1: asking for what you need in your relationship. That can
Speaker 1: sometimes do more good than bad. Speaking up for yourself,
Speaker 1: and not just more good for yourself, but more good
Speaker 1: for those around you if they know where you stand.
Speaker 1: We've set it again and again, but learn to set boundaries. So,
Speaker 1: according to this psychologist Myers, developing healthy boundaries is a
Speaker 1: pretty important step, not just an overcoming people pleasing behaviors,
Speaker 1: but for setting up any kind of healthy, long term relationship.
Speaker 1: The next time someone asks for help or you're attempted
Speaker 1: to intervene, consider three things. How do you feel about
Speaker 1: the action? Is it something you want to do? Or
Speaker 1: are you dreading it? You can always just say no,
Speaker 1: You can always back out. You don't owe your time
Speaker 1: or your energy to anyone but yourself. Think about whether
Speaker 1: you have time to see to your own needs first.
Speaker 1: Will you have to sacrifice your own time or a
Speaker 1: necessary or something you're looking forward to to helping this
Speaker 1: other person? And how will helping make you feel? Will
Speaker 1: it make you feel happy or will it make you
Speaker 1: feel resentful? Finally, wait until you are asked for help,
Speaker 1: no matter what the problem is. You know, if you're
Speaker 1: a people pleaser, you're always ready with a solution. You
Speaker 1: volunteer for things of work, jump in with suggestions when
Speaker 1: a friend mentions any kind of problem, offer to help
Speaker 1: them out next time. Challenge yourself to wait until someone
Speaker 1: explicitly asks you for help. If your partner I don't
Speaker 1: know it, goes off on a rant about how awful
Speaker 1: their boss is or how shitty one of their friends is,
Speaker 1: show how much you care by listening instead of listing
Speaker 1: off tips to deal with the situation or offering to
Speaker 1: do something that they might not even need you to do.
Speaker 1: They may want empathy and just validation more than anything else,
Speaker 1: and probably involves a lot less from you financially, personally
Speaker 1: in terms of your time, and a lot of other
Speaker 1: limited resources. I hope you enjoyed this more bite sized episode.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to get into the habit of kind of
Speaker 1: varying how long the episodes are, like shorter, longer. That's
Speaker 1: literally what I just said. But you get my gist,
Speaker 1: just so that there's a bit of variety and you
Speaker 1: don't have to sit back and listen to some fifty
Speaker 1: minute ramble about things you might not even care about.
Speaker 1: Get to the point, Gemma, I understand. Next week we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about love languages. I have been discussing
Speaker 1: this with my friends for years, and I kind of
Speaker 1: started to think whether they're valid, whether they're actually a
Speaker 1: reliable tool for assessing what you need in a relationship.
Speaker 1: We're doing a lot of relationship based podcasts at the moment.
Speaker 1: I also just realized that recently as well. I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm just really into the social psychology at the moment.
Speaker 1: It's just really quite tantalizing and very interesting. Hence why
Speaker 1: you're seeing a lot more of those people focused episodes
Speaker 1: on your feed. If you don't like it, that's okay.
Speaker 1: More of the positivism and more of the biological psychologies
Speaker 1: coming back soon. But this is a podcast about your
Speaker 1: twenties and the relationships we form in our twenties are
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the most important aspects. Also,
Speaker 1: I say this every episode, but if you have made
Speaker 1: it this far, please if you feel inclined, if you
Speaker 1: have a few extra five seconds, really five seconds, ten seconds,
Speaker 1: leave the podcast or review on either Spotify or Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: But if you don't want to do it, if you
Speaker 1: think that that's going to reinforce any people pleasing tendencies,
Speaker 1: don't do it. You know, set those boundaries. You don't
Speaker 1: own me anything, but it would be very nice and
Speaker 1: thank you for listening, Thanks for supporting the podcast as always,
Speaker 1: drop a line in on the website or on Instagram
Speaker 1: if you have any ideas that you really want me
Speaker 1: to kind of look into. I love doing the research
Speaker 1: kind of more than I like recording in the episodes.
Speaker 1: At the moment, I've got all of these amazing papers
Speaker 1: saved in my browser that I'm just trying to get
Speaker 1: through to make these kind of evidence based as they
Speaker 1: have typically been. So Yeah, if there's anything else you
Speaker 1: want to add to that part or please feel free
Speaker 1: to do so. And have an amazing week weekend wherever
Speaker 1: you are in the world, and thank you for listening