Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the Very unprofessional podcast, whereby I your unqualified guide talk
Speaker 1: through some of the big changes and transitions of our
Speaker 1: twenties and what they mean for our psychology. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to the podcast. I hope your week has been well,
Speaker 1: that's something amazing has happened, or you got some cool news.
Speaker 1: I'm recording this with a little cat on my lap
Speaker 1: right now and it's very, very satisfying. But this week
Speaker 1: we're going to be delving into the chaos, the absolute
Speaker 1: fucking nightmare of the nine to five job. This is
Speaker 1: a topic that my friends and I talk about all
Speaker 1: the time, and the general conclusion we most often reach
Speaker 1: is that the nine to five jobs should be abolished,
Speaker 1: left for dead. It's not a happy way of life
Speaker 1: for many, I think, and myself included. So today we're
Speaker 1: going to talk about how a nine to five is
Speaker 1: not conducive to a healthy, rounded and happy way of living,
Speaker 1: especially when we're young. And we're going to have a
Speaker 1: special guest come on later. But first let's just talk
Speaker 1: about some of the psychological concepts behind why nine to
Speaker 1: five work week is actually just really terrible. So our
Speaker 1: work can be a big part of our identity and
Speaker 1: offer some pretty key insights into what's important to us.
Speaker 1: So it is a really rich area of psychological study,
Speaker 1: and for many people in the twenties, the transition to
Speaker 1: full time work is very much like the transition to adulthood.
Speaker 1: We have those fun years in university, in high school.
Speaker 1: We have a lot of freedom to work the jobs
Speaker 1: and the hours we want, and for many that means
Speaker 1: that we have our days and you know, well our
Speaker 1: lives just free to do what we wish with. But
Speaker 1: that can really come crashing down when we enter the
Speaker 1: workforce and suddenly we have to adapt our lifestyle to
Speaker 1: the typical nine to five work week. So I've had
Speaker 1: this experience recently. I work the typical nine to five
Speaker 1: every day every week, and after the first few weeks,
Speaker 1: the novelty kind of wears off and it really started
Speaker 1: to wear me down, and it can be pretty fucking depressing.
Speaker 1: The thing that really got was that mononymous procedure of
Speaker 1: going to the same place every day, the same commute,
Speaker 1: doing the same silly little task, surrounded by the same people,
Speaker 1: and so much of your day becomes devoted to this
Speaker 1: bigger entity and what's in the interests of this company
Speaker 1: or organization, which can be you know, insanely unfulfilling in
Speaker 1: many instances. And I especially began to notice this when
Speaker 1: winter struck. You wake up at nine, seven thirty, the
Speaker 1: sun's still down, commute to work, maybe blasting some music
Speaker 1: so you don't feel like, you know, an absolute robot,
Speaker 1: and you finish up after five, when the sun is set.
Speaker 1: And where where's your day gone? Where is this natural
Speaker 1: instinct to be active in the sun and outdoors going
Speaker 1: with the hours you have left? How do you create
Speaker 1: fulfillment and an identity in so many short hours, in
Speaker 1: such a short period of time, when the sun is
Speaker 1: down and you're exhausted, And I've just come to the
Speaker 1: conclusion it's almost impossible to remain human in the system
Speaker 1: and to maintain a concept of yourself beyond your function
Speaker 1: as a worker or as an employee. You know, you
Speaker 1: just end up having so little time to be yourself
Speaker 1: to the two things that truly do bring you joy.
Speaker 1: Now I know this is not the case for anyone.
Speaker 1: Some people find work and jobs and inspire them and
Speaker 1: light of fire under their soul and push them towards really,
Speaker 1: really great things, and some people find it immensely enjoyable
Speaker 1: and fulfilling to be devoted to people and projects that
Speaker 1: are bigger than themselves in a sense of purposefulness and productivity.
Speaker 1: There's also that element of money, you know, in a
Speaker 1: world where we have to pay to exist, no wonder
Speaker 1: we've become so conditioned to a system that asks us
Speaker 1: to sacrifice, you know, the majority of our daily hours
Speaker 1: to work in an office of something we don't particularly love,
Speaker 1: just to afford the small pleasures in life, like rent.
Speaker 1: Like I mentioned, this dilemma between being a free spirit
Speaker 1: and embracing our youth or sacrificing these young years for
Speaker 1: full time employment is one I'm sure many of my
Speaker 1: listeners have experienced, especially if you are going through that
Speaker 1: transition right now. It might even be keeping you up
Speaker 1: at night. I don't know. But even if you don't
Speaker 1: have this experience, I think we can all recognize this
Speaker 1: intense societal pressure to enter into this system and the
Speaker 1: corporate world and work our lives and days away until
Speaker 1: we're sixty five retired, no longer have the bones of
Speaker 1: the stamina for the life that we actually wanted for ourselves.
Speaker 1: And when I started investigating this and the psychology behind
Speaker 1: the nine to five job. In our twenties, it started
Speaker 1: feeling even more startling and a pretty shitty deal that
Speaker 1: we've entered voluntarily into. And I have had this feeling recently,
Speaker 1: like at what point did I actually choose this life
Speaker 1: for myself and come to the conclusion it would bring
Speaker 1: me happiness? Like how much of that pressure was external
Speaker 1: or intangible? Me feeling this idealized equation for a perfect
Speaker 1: life whereby you know, you have a good job, that's
Speaker 1: the foundation and everything else kind of falls around it.
Speaker 1: But enough of my rant. Let's just get into the
Speaker 1: psychology behind full time work. We're going to talk about
Speaker 1: why a nine to five job is not ideal for
Speaker 1: making a living, burnout, exhaustion, and the struggle for fulfillment
Speaker 1: in a modern day capitalist society. So before we understand
Speaker 1: the psychological effects of the five day work week, we
Speaker 1: have to understand its history. So the truth is, this
Speaker 1: type of work schedule hasn't always been the standard in
Speaker 1: Australia or many places in the world. So basically, in
Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds, factory workers they were known for being
Speaker 1: forced to work one hundred hour weeks or more, but Fortunately,
Speaker 1: after years of activists work and many people fighting the
Speaker 1: powers that be, change began, and now the nine to
Speaker 1: five workweek has kind of become a standard, and we've
Speaker 1: certainly been really lucky to have people from the past
Speaker 1: who fought for these labor rights and for more free time. However,
Speaker 1: I think many of us still believe we're not really
Speaker 1: getting the best deal. So there was a study recently.
Speaker 1: It was a worldwide study that had over three thousand individuals,
Speaker 1: all working those classic eight hours sometimes more work days,
Speaker 1: and finding showed that half of these individuals believe they
Speaker 1: can do their jobs using only five hour days. This
Speaker 1: means they think they'd be more productive if they worked
Speaker 1: a fewer hours instead of more, or a four day
Speaker 1: workweek instead of five, which really kind of poses the
Speaker 1: argument that working eight hour days in forty hour weeks
Speaker 1: aren't necessarily even effective. And further studies have also shown
Speaker 1: that those who work a nine to five job versus
Speaker 1: those who have flexible work hours, more days off, and
Speaker 1: greater emphasis on ledger, they're more likely to express symptoms
Speaker 1: of depression anxiety, They're more likely to laugh less, express
Speaker 1: less satisfaction with how they use their remaining time, and
Speaker 1: have fewer fulfilling relationships. According to this recent study that
Speaker 1: I read about, I think it's only around thirty percent
Speaker 1: of the US workforce is engaged in their work, so,
Speaker 1: in other words, they're passionate about their work and they
Speaker 1: feel strongly committed to their companies. But that leaves seventy
Speaker 1: percent of workers who are either not engaged or actively disengaged.
Speaker 1: So that's seventy percent of the population who have this
Speaker 1: work lifestyle who appear quite frankly, quite miserable, and not
Speaker 1: really engaged in what they're doing. And on average, we
Speaker 1: spend at least thirty five percent of our waking hours
Speaker 1: at work. And if we're not happy in our job,
Speaker 1: then it tends to have pretty far reaching impacts on
Speaker 1: other aspects of our lives, and it affects things like
Speaker 1: our relationships, our sleet, physical health, our ability to relax.
Speaker 1: So what is it about this system that creates such unhappiness?
Speaker 1: From a psychological perspective, I think it's important just to
Speaker 1: break it down from an evolutionary perspective to begin So, humans,
Speaker 1: they didn't evolve to work a nine to five job.
Speaker 1: We evolved as hunter gatherers, and our innate instincts, our minds,
Speaker 1: our bodies. They've evolved to suit this context, not that
Speaker 1: of an office. Our central nervous system, and many of
Speaker 1: the structures and features of our bodies, including our circadian rhythm,
Speaker 1: fight or fight system sensory systems, and cognitive features such
Speaker 1: as our attention, they've all adapted as a result of
Speaker 1: that evolutionary environment. So, for example, one of the primary
Speaker 1: jobs we used to have in a hunter gatherer society
Speaker 1: was obviously hunting, and this involved brief spurts of intense
Speaker 1: activity followed by large amounts of leisure time. Similarly, for
Speaker 1: those who rely primarily primarily on gathering food, this would
Speaker 1: have required kind of more time invested, but involved large
Speaker 1: amounts of physical activity rest time in between. And it
Speaker 1: was a lifestyle that brought about specific and instantaneous rewards,
Speaker 1: such as finding something edible. So both elements of this
Speaker 1: lifestyle have three important aspects that are no longer kind
Speaker 1: of present in the modern day work environment. So firstly,
Speaker 1: they have this specific task task based reward. You've got
Speaker 1: time outdoors and you're active, and you've got a greater
Speaker 1: amount of time for leisure as well. So our bodies
Speaker 1: and minds they were formed for these activities. They have
Speaker 1: evolved for environmental stimulation that is varied and involves active
Speaker 1: and external input from our surroundings, our genes. They're still
Speaker 1: expecting that we chase prey or collect roots and seeds.
Speaker 1: But human innovation, firstly, with the creation of agriculture and
Speaker 1: manufacturing and industry, it's really moved us away from our
Speaker 1: natural tendencies and rhythms. And this is why the discomfort
Speaker 1: and boredom of a nine to five job can be
Speaker 1: so profound and unsettling for so many of us, because
Speaker 1: we've forced ourselves into a lifestyle that is fundamentally opposed
Speaker 1: to what our bodies and minds have evolved to do.
Speaker 1: What's worse, I think instead of being outside, people now
Speaker 1: work in these large buildings. They're roughly tightly packed with people, technology,
Speaker 1: not much ventilation, and instead of being this tribal creature
Speaker 1: chasing after your next meal or working alone in small groups,
Speaker 1: humans have become cells and pretty unindividualized cells in a
Speaker 1: much larger organism, and it's an organism which has little
Speaker 1: use for their creativity and their individuality. Basically, our genes
Speaker 1: haven't had much time to evolve to this lifestyle. So
Speaker 1: working nine to five on small tasks and projects that
Speaker 1: rarely have much larger meaning, or you feel anyone can
Speaker 1: replace you, it doesn't really fit the logic that's hardwired
Speaker 1: into our DNA. Like I kind of mentioned, we've traded
Speaker 1: brief spurts of intense focus and activity for long days
Speaker 1: of continuous, monotonymous work. We traded skilled, knowledgeable work for
Speaker 1: this cog like activity. And we exist in concrete boxes
Speaker 1: with little time outside or a nature or as individuals
Speaker 1: as well. And it's really interesting because a lot of
Speaker 1: organizational psychology has shown that employers who are willing to
Speaker 1: adopt an evolutionary psychology approach to organizing their workplaces, they
Speaker 1: may drastically improve their workers overall physical and psychological health
Speaker 1: as well as their general productivity. So what impact does
Speaker 1: the nine to five have on our mental state and
Speaker 1: our psychological well being? So not just being asked to
Speaker 1: fit into a nine to five lisel, but also does
Speaker 1: the things we're not doing, the things that we aren't
Speaker 1: passionate about, and we don't really do things that fulfill
Speaker 1: us cognitively or creatively, And there are some pretty long
Speaker 1: term consequences of that. Firstly, we've got fatigue, burnout, depression,
Speaker 1: existential dread, just to name just some fun few and
Speaker 1: long hours they do cause fatigue, both physical and men.
Speaker 1: And that fatigue affects not just the last few hours
Speaker 1: of a workday, but all hours of the next day.
Speaker 1: So an employee who drags back to work after only
Speaker 1: a few hours of rest at home isn't going to
Speaker 1: be very productive in the morning. Then the next long
Speaker 1: day it ties them out even more, and this kind
Speaker 1: of punishing cycle begins. They're not going to be able
Speaker 1: to fulfill their other obligations in life or properly utilize
Speaker 1: their leisure time if they're exhausted, mentally, under or overstimulated
Speaker 1: and dealing with the pressures of the workplace and just
Speaker 1: life in general. And this is particularly pronounced if it's
Speaker 1: a big life change kind of shifting into that everyday habit,
Speaker 1: which it is for those in their twenties who are
Speaker 1: just entering full time work, and it's probably why we
Speaker 1: see so much burnout and dissatisfaction in that age group.
Speaker 1: So burnout, it can happen pretty fast and is projected
Speaker 1: into all areas of life, doesn't really help anyone maintaining
Speaker 1: a nine to five schedule. It doesn't help the individual
Speaker 1: or the employee who has a group of tired, exhausted,
Speaker 1: unfulfilled young professionals sparring for better things and greater pleasures
Speaker 1: of life. And it's not just the nine to five
Speaker 1: long working hours and blurred boundaries between work life and
Speaker 1: private life. They're pretty common amongst young professionals and for employees.
Speaker 1: There may be temporarily acceptable reasons for working longer days
Speaker 1: you expect positive career outcomes in terms of higher salary
Speaker 1: or intrinsic rewards. But long term this isn't emotionally or
Speaker 1: psychologically sustainable burnout. It can present as neglected personal care needs,
Speaker 1: dim detention, withdrawal to personalization, which I talked about in
Speaker 1: my episode with Kate, emptiness, emotional instability, and depression. And
Speaker 1: in the long term, how do you recover from repeated
Speaker 1: cases of burnout or do you just adapt and begin
Speaker 1: to detach and close off doors to other areas of
Speaker 1: your life that might be contributing to your schedule. Basically,
Speaker 1: I think what I'm trying to say is by trying
Speaker 1: to recover from the exhaustion of monotonymous office life, you
Speaker 1: might actually begin sacrificing other elements such as sleep and
Speaker 1: passion projects, and it's socializing to adapt because so much
Speaker 1: of your day is being taken up by your work,
Speaker 1: and it really only leads to you becoming a bit
Speaker 1: of a shell of yourself. And I found this quote
Speaker 1: that I think really captures this pattern of thought. So
Speaker 1: worktime actually is lifetime too, and I don't want to
Speaker 1: spend my lifetime only at work. And when I read that,
Speaker 1: it kind of sent me a little bit, maybe a
Speaker 1: bit scared, because it really does hit the nail on
Speaker 1: the head in terms of what we're giving up to
Speaker 1: work for a larger entity that might not even care
Speaker 1: about us, might not even know who we are. And
Speaker 1: a meta analysis of I think it's like two hundred
Speaker 1: over two hundred records of all these academic papers that
Speaker 1: had over one hundred eight hundred thousand participants, so think
Speaker 1: about that close to a million from thirteen countries. It
Speaker 1: demonstrated that longer working hours to have a positive relationship
Speaker 1: with occupational health problems and higher rates of depression and anxiety.
Speaker 1: And this is particularly the case for employees who report
Speaker 1: feeling unfulfilled by their projects and their role and your
Speaker 1: ability to enjoy your life beyond your workplace becomes intrinsically
Speaker 1: linked to your position as this kind of capitalist cog,
Speaker 1: and it strips you of your health and it strips
Speaker 1: you of your individuality. So this is the question, if
Speaker 1: the nine to five courses depression, dread, fatigue, burnout, why
Speaker 1: do young people feel psychologically pressured to submit to it?
Speaker 1: And we have a guest to explain this a little bit,
Speaker 1: and I'll welcome her in just a second, So welcome eron. Hello,
Speaker 1: how are you all going this fine day? Night? Yeah, lunch, evening, midnights,
Speaker 1: nicy podcast after Hours. No, that's not the theme of
Speaker 1: the show. We didn't agree on that. So Aaron is
Speaker 1: a good friend of mine. It's our one year friend
Speaker 1: anniversary around this time, around this time, And yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. And you know, an avid listener of
Speaker 1: the podcast and also a bit of a nine to
Speaker 1: five expert. I don't know, I feel like you were
Speaker 1: the first one of our friends to really jump into
Speaker 1: that kind of way of living. I think I was. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think there are a couple of other people. But
Speaker 1: I started my nine to five job in August last year,
Speaker 1: so that's almost a year and she was five, still
Speaker 1: doing union at the time. I was still doing UNI
Speaker 1: at the time, which is a terrible idea. If anybody
Speaker 1: ever says to you do a university degree and work
Speaker 1: nine to five Monday to Friday at the same time,
Speaker 1: don't don't. Don't listen. They are no friend. They are
Speaker 1: not your friend. Run in the opposite direction as fast
Speaker 1: as you can. Um tum. Who course is what you're doing?
Speaker 1: So I'm meeting a cookie by the way, Um, I
Speaker 1: was doing well. This is when I told myself it
Speaker 1: was fine. I was doing two courses at the time,
Speaker 1: and then I had to pick up another two to
Speaker 1: graduate in time to qualify for my other job, which
Speaker 1: will remain neighless secrets. It's secret secret. No sorry, guys.
Speaker 1: The spun the cat just took up to leave us.
Speaker 1: This is a very casual episode. I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: bringing on an expert, but really it's a let's get
Speaker 1: friendly in disguise. So let's get friendly. But we're talking
Speaker 1: about an errand providing commentary on the cat she's looking after.
Speaker 1: So you started in August last year. Yes, now it's
Speaker 1: almost August. It's almost been a year. I hate to
Speaker 1: remind you. I know your concept of time is My
Speaker 1: concept of time is shot, probably due to being in
Speaker 1: an office work slave, a work slave for a year.
Speaker 1: There's a lot of sorry, the jingling again, the cat,
Speaker 1: Please cut that, Please cut the jingles out. It's fine,
Speaker 1: nobody wants it. So yeah, Um, I've sat in a
Speaker 1: room in an office building breathing in other people's air
Speaker 1: for a year. How terrifying is that? But it's it's
Speaker 1: one of those things that I don't I think we've
Speaker 1: talked about this a lot, but being able to afford
Speaker 1: the lifestyle that you want. At one stage at UNI,
Speaker 1: I would go into the grocery store and I would
Speaker 1: really stress about what I was spending money on. And
Speaker 1: now I can go out for drinks with friends, I
Speaker 1: can treat friends, I can buy ubers. Yeah, and I do.
Speaker 1: I guess I try to still be do it all
Speaker 1: within reason because I'm not earning the largest amount of money.
Speaker 1: But it is nice and there is a certain amount
Speaker 1: of privilege associated with that. But I certainly I don't
Speaker 1: want to take for granted. But also, as I've said,
Speaker 1: I feel like it's good because you're kind of being like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, let's talk about the positives because obviously it's
Speaker 1: not modern day slavery, like we really make it. Like
Speaker 1: I know, a lot of the early part of this
Speaker 1: show was me being like, fuck the nine to five,
Speaker 1: my life so hard, Like I get paid, you know,
Speaker 1: in the top two percent to do nothing. I don't
Speaker 1: do nothing. I think that I actually do quite a
Speaker 1: lot of work. But like you know, Errand's made a
Speaker 1: very good point, this is something you sign a contract voluntarily, like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, you're getting into your get with four things.
Speaker 1: It's suddenly the position I'm in at least just a
Speaker 1: lot better than a casual job that I used to
Speaker 1: work in that it doesn't really care about your health
Speaker 1: and well being. So the workplace that I'm in at
Speaker 1: the moment tries to, you know, make sure that their
Speaker 1: workers are looked after properly. And we have people advocating
Speaker 1: for our rights, and yeah, you know, we've got like
Speaker 1: I'm a member of the union, which I strongly encourage
Speaker 1: you all to be. All of the listeners. If you're
Speaker 1: not signed up to your union, definitely do that because
Speaker 1: they're the ones advocating for positive change in your workplace. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a very socialist episode, I think, and I don't know.
Speaker 1: I also think we were talking because we had dinner
Speaker 1: before this, and we were talking like, I know, you
Speaker 1: can't really get into it because you don't want to
Speaker 1: get sued to whoever someone from your work was. Yes,
Speaker 1: I was about to say someone's name, but do you
Speaker 1: know who I was about to say that? Yeah? Um.
Speaker 1: But I also think that sometimes they don't always have
Speaker 1: your best interests at heart, Like you've had a pretty
Speaker 1: shitty experience whereby they were pretty standoffish about letting you
Speaker 1: be flexible, and it really kind of wrote raised those
Speaker 1: questions of like why am I being forced into a
Speaker 1: nine a nine to five five day work week when
Speaker 1: A I'm not even being productive. B it's really bad
Speaker 1: for my health. And see, you guys don't even need
Speaker 1: me here. Yeah. As so I'm I come from this
Speaker 1: standpoint as somebody with a mental illness. And so I
Speaker 1: worked five days in my job a year ago was
Speaker 1: spun creating noise. It's fun. So, as somebody with mental illness,
Speaker 1: I worked five days in my job a year ago
Speaker 1: when I was doing UNI, and then I dropped down
Speaker 1: to four days to do UNI, and my life became
Speaker 1: eminently so much easier and currently in my current job,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to do that. I'm nearly there. It took
Speaker 1: a lot of negotiating and a lot of advocating for myself,
Speaker 1: but I think you can probably attest to this. I
Speaker 1: already just feel so much better because I think there's
Speaker 1: a there's a huge concept of everybody always asks you
Speaker 1: your whole life where are you going to work? Like
Speaker 1: what are you going to do? What are you going
Speaker 1: to be when you grow up? Fucking hell, I hate
Speaker 1: that question every time you see that. I can't say
Speaker 1: that because they listen to this, but like, especially older
Speaker 1: people will often ask that, and it's like, why do
Speaker 1: I need to answer you? I'm twenty one years twenty
Speaker 1: two years old, Like I don't know. Also, it just
Speaker 1: puts this whole emphasis on like what are you going
Speaker 1: to do for work? Like work is your whole life?
Speaker 1: And I remember I told someone like I'm going to
Speaker 1: take a year off and they were like, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do it? And And I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to do creative things like that would be
Speaker 1: really good for your resume. And then what are you
Speaker 1: gonna do afterwards? And I was like, well, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like just let me be, does let me exist? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Just so much, so much worth is put on to
Speaker 1: your productivity and what your career is going to be. Like,
Speaker 1: I've been listening to a lot of other podcasts. Of
Speaker 1: course this podcast Loyal Listener, Yeah, what do you mean
Speaker 1: you're listening to the fucking podcast. But I've listened to
Speaker 1: a lot of podcasts that are talking about finances and careers.
Speaker 1: I like, there's a beautiful, beautiful Facebook I love host
Speaker 1: out here out there in the world rather and it's
Speaker 1: basically says, um, what's your dream job question mark. I
Speaker 1: simply do not dream of labor. Yeah, And that's exactly
Speaker 1: That's exactly how I feel like. I really until I
Speaker 1: started having three days on the weekend for myself and
Speaker 1: four days during the week for work, I had no balance, Like,
Speaker 1: and if you're not, I'm sure that there's people with
Speaker 1: really amazing jobs out there that fulfill them and that's
Speaker 1: what they want to do. But I often sit at
Speaker 1: my desk and just think, oh, my goodness, what I
Speaker 1: would give to be outside, And I stay out the
Speaker 1: window and I go, why am I here? And I
Speaker 1: think it's like, there's so many skills that I've learned
Speaker 1: at work and all of that. And I think the
Speaker 1: more that you have a work life balance, the more
Speaker 1: going to work is something that isn't terrible. Yea. And
Speaker 1: so for me, like having flexible work arrangements and working
Speaker 1: part time has really helped. Do you But quick question,
Speaker 1: do you think you can have a flexible work life
Speaker 1: balance of five days of your life? Oh? It's absolutely not.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Bring on the four day work week. Honestly,
Speaker 1: whoever came up with this concept of having to work
Speaker 1: five days a week two days on the weekend is
Speaker 1: simply not enough to do. Like I describe it as,
Speaker 1: I have my day that brings me joy. I have
Speaker 1: my day of life admin and then I have my
Speaker 1: day to do whatever I want. Yeah. So like all
Speaker 1: of the stuff that like the relaxation, the laundry, Oh,
Speaker 1: I guess that's a life admen, But you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, like the stuff that's like you have to
Speaker 1: do like maintenance kind of stuff, look after your plants,
Speaker 1: look after my plants, hours of my life plans. But
Speaker 1: it's fulfilling, it is it is that is something I
Speaker 1: care about. And I also remember speaking of like you
Speaker 1: being at your desk, being like, I just want to
Speaker 1: go outside. I remember being terrified when you told me
Speaker 1: when you're working at your old job and that building. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you would say to me like, oh, it was bucketing
Speaker 1: down rain today. But I've made a promise to myself
Speaker 1: to always eat my lunch outside. So I went and
Speaker 1: sat outside. Yeah, And I was just sitting in the rain. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh my god, it sounds fucking
Speaker 1: terrible like you. Yeah. I mean the other thing I do,
Speaker 1: because I really don't enjoy sitting inside all day, is
Speaker 1: I eat lunch outside. I try to do that as
Speaker 1: often as I can, and I cycle to them from work.
Speaker 1: And I was saying recently to my housemaid, shout out
Speaker 1: tonight if you're listening him, that my favorite part of
Speaker 1: work now is not work, because work would never be
Speaker 1: my favorite part of my day, but actually cycling to
Speaker 1: and from work and doing exercise, because that's how I've
Speaker 1: built in looking after myself. When eight hours of the day,
Speaker 1: which in winter is all of your daylight, is gone,
Speaker 1: literally nothing. We live in camera and it's like sunsets
Speaker 1: at five, sunsets at five, So if you're working nine
Speaker 1: to five, you don't get daylight hours and so that's
Speaker 1: my motivation to exercise, is I cycled to and from
Speaker 1: work because I can, luckily, which is obviously not something
Speaker 1: that everybody can do, but that really really helps me
Speaker 1: and helps maintain my mental health. And I think the
Speaker 1: really interesting thing actually there's probably a direct correlation between
Speaker 1: nine to five and me actually realizing I have to
Speaker 1: look after my mental health, Like don't I don't know
Speaker 1: whether people remember, yeah that when I started my job,
Speaker 1: I like suddenly, like my ninety five job, I suddenly
Speaker 1: got very into like running because I was like, I
Speaker 1: have to walk. It was a big thing. What are
Speaker 1: you doing? Because we used to live around like literally
Speaker 1: like I'm going to each other and what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Can I come over and be like I'm on a walk? Yeah,
Speaker 1: just because I needed to breathe fresh air and be outside. Um,
Speaker 1: because it's just a big thing. And I had this
Speaker 1: realization today when I was leaving work and just quickly disclaim, up,
Speaker 1: we I don't know about you. I love my job
Speaker 1: like I love the people I work. Okay, very very
Speaker 1: so glad that you feel that way. I love people
Speaker 1: at my work, but I don't think I share the
Speaker 1: same sentiment. I go to work to get paid. Yeah
Speaker 1: and hopefully one day, Well me too, Like yeah, like
Speaker 1: it's not I wouldn't go if I was a volunteer.
Speaker 1: Are people who would go to work if they if
Speaker 1: they weren't being paid, because that is they've been brainwashed.
Speaker 1: That's why simple explanation. It was like people, no, don't
Speaker 1: get it. It's also like people who volunteer like in
Speaker 1: old age. I'm like, I get it, but I'm also
Speaker 1: havingly I don't know. I'm like you with your whole life.
Speaker 1: Now you're retired, you're gonna go work for free because
Speaker 1: you can't do anything other than work. I actually really
Speaker 1: like volunteering though, but if it's like I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe I'm just doing what I haven't tried yet. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it depends what volunteering you're doing. I find
Speaker 1: a lot of satisfaction in volunteering because I know that
Speaker 1: what I'm doing actually contributes. But is it like you're
Speaker 1: outside because you often do like tree planting volunteering. Yeah, always,
Speaker 1: not always. So I did volunteering for a while where
Speaker 1: I worked in like a Vinney's, like an equivalent of
Speaker 1: a Viney's overseas, and I loved that that was amazing.
Speaker 1: That was a lot because of like human connection as
Speaker 1: well and being able to talk to people. Okay, and
Speaker 1: I volunteer. Yeah, and I volunteered for a group called
Speaker 1: Sea Change who are nonproprofiting camera and I do that
Speaker 1: because I like, I like it and I think I
Speaker 1: like them. The feeling of contributing to being part of
Speaker 1: a community, that that's like a big value for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so community is another big thing we should talk about. Yeah, definitely, Um,
Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't know. And I think that's probably
Speaker 1: what I do enjoy about work is having like a
Speaker 1: network of people. Yeah, That's that's what I was saying about.
Speaker 1: Like I really love the people I work with, Like
Speaker 1: the things I do feel somewhat meaningful. I have responsibility,
Speaker 1: and I think that is really important. By the way,
Speaker 1: not to interrupt you, but if you are working in
Speaker 1: a nine to five job and you have the ability
Speaker 1: to change where you are, and you are not feeling
Speaker 1: fulfilled where you are, just move find somewhere that does fit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you have that flexibility. So what Aaron's all about? Like,
Speaker 1: I am a notorious job quitter, Like if I don't
Speaker 1: like where I'm working, quit quit quick. Like as you should.
Speaker 1: Life is too short if you have the option too,
Speaker 1: life is way too short to sit in a job. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and especially I think while you're young and you don't
Speaker 1: have a mortgage, you don't have kids, you don't have
Speaker 1: looming financial responsibilities, why not? Yeah? And this is the
Speaker 1: thing about like being in your twenties, Like a lot
Speaker 1: of us do have that freedom, and it's like why
Speaker 1: do we submit to something that doesn't work for us?
Speaker 1: And I have that Like my friends used to always
Speaker 1: joke with me, like you're a notorious like oh, how
Speaker 1: many jobs are you working now? Like where are you
Speaker 1: working now? Gema? Because I would constantly change. But I
Speaker 1: had this really very strong feeling like right now, well
Speaker 1: does my oyster? Yeah? So much freedom? Why would I
Speaker 1: stay in a workplace that I don't feel valued in
Speaker 1: working hours, I don't feel valued in you know, it
Speaker 1: just isn't worth it. And it's not worth it when
Speaker 1: you're young and you have so much health and stamina
Speaker 1: and opportunity and friendships. Yeah, to just sacrifice that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And this is that obviously there are people in positions
Speaker 1: to not who can't do that. Yeah. And then in
Speaker 1: which case I think I had an amazing conversation with
Speaker 1: my psychologists the other day about the concept that if
Speaker 1: you do have to be where you are and like
Speaker 1: that's something that's important to you because you need to
Speaker 1: grow your income or for whatever reason, you know you
Speaker 1: maybe you do have financial responsibiy. Yeah, yeah, And it's
Speaker 1: always as well, there are people who work to support
Speaker 1: what they love in other aspects of their life, so
Speaker 1: they'll work to be able to do other things that
Speaker 1: they really like. And I think that's you know, that's
Speaker 1: obviously a value as well, if you do have that
Speaker 1: kind of balance. But um, my psychologists, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to name her, but shout out huge shout out to you.
Speaker 1: I will I will tell it. I she'd like it,
Speaker 1: recommend it to our patients. We can get some more
Speaker 1: the listeners. Many people in Canberra public services, I would
Speaker 1: say the majority of our friends. I would say almost
Speaker 1: all of our friends work in jobs that either serve
Speaker 1: the public service or are the public service. So even
Speaker 1: if they are like not working in a department or
Speaker 1: like a branch or a group like that's what my
Speaker 1: job is, primarily serving the public service. So you really
Speaker 1: like it gets ingrained in me. And there's a lot
Speaker 1: of Actually there benefits, Like there's a lot of flexibility
Speaker 1: in the public service, and I'm able to go down
Speaker 1: to photos so weak at the moment because of the
Speaker 1: stability with that. But anyway, so she was talking about
Speaker 1: this concept of happiness. If you are not somebody who
Speaker 1: loves to work and work as you're alive, happiness is
Speaker 1: not just going to strike you at work like a
Speaker 1: lightning bolt from above, and you're not just going to
Speaker 1: sit there and become super deliriously happy. Yeah, it's not
Speaker 1: going to happen. And all my life, I think because
Speaker 1: of the conversations that everybody has around careers and work
Speaker 1: and what you're going to be and finding filment through
Speaker 1: what you do, I always thought that if I found
Speaker 1: a job that fit totally right, I would just experience
Speaker 1: insurmountable happiness, like a dream job, like a dream. Oh
Speaker 1: my good comfort of a dream. Abolish it. Abolish it,
Speaker 1: concept of a dream job. Hate it. Because she literally said,
Speaker 1: even if you work in something that you're completely fulfilled in,
Speaker 1: it is scientifically impossible to be happy eight hours of
Speaker 1: that day. Yeah. True. You can't yeah, or to be
Speaker 1: stimulated or to be stimulated or not bored or bored constantly,
Speaker 1: and even if you are stimulating, we stressed, Yeah, you
Speaker 1: can't keep your attention for eight hours of a day.
Speaker 1: It's literally scientifically impossible unless you're on drugs. Yeah, even
Speaker 1: then you still go to the bathroom. Maybe not, I
Speaker 1: don't know what you're taking. But and for me that
Speaker 1: just I found it such a concept. And she said,
Speaker 1: you've got to create moments of happiness in your day
Speaker 1: at work. So for me, I like cycle to him
Speaker 1: from work. That's a huge bit of my happiness. I
Speaker 1: have lunch with my friend, shout out, lindsay love you,
Speaker 1: friend of the show, a friend of the show. I
Speaker 1: have lunch with her almost every day. I love it.
Speaker 1: Half an hour to just chat shit. Yeah about the world. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not the public service though, we never chat about the
Speaker 1: public service. Never, totally. No, we would never talk about
Speaker 1: work on our lunch break. Not abolish work. Yeah, actually
Speaker 1: you shouldn't talk about where we shouldn't we had Sorry
Speaker 1: just to interject, you had this moment. No, it's like
Speaker 1: we were having dinner, just like hanging out, and we
Speaker 1: got into like work chats, and I came and we
Speaker 1: haven't seen each other for like a week. Gust I
Speaker 1: was sitting on the couch and I got into work
Speaker 1: chat and I really had a moment where I was like,
Speaker 1: I always promise myself, did you ever do this when
Speaker 1: you're a kid, You're like, I'm not going to work
Speaker 1: at nine to five? Like, oh, people who talk about
Speaker 1: work on their three days, they're still late. And then
Speaker 1: there I was I have never ever pictured myself sitting
Speaker 1: in front of a computer in an office, and I've
Speaker 1: been doing that for a year of my life. Wow.
Speaker 1: And I have many moments during the day where I
Speaker 1: sit there at my computer and I go, what the
Speaker 1: heck is going on here? What am I doing? What
Speaker 1: am I doing? But you know, it's skills gaining the world.
Speaker 1: It's the way of the eighty is the way of
Speaker 1: the world. It's one of those things. And I don't
Speaker 1: think anybody preps you for it. No, well I actually
Speaker 1: think maybe they do. Like school kind of preps you
Speaker 1: for it, think about like going to school when you're
Speaker 1: But that's the thing I had this thought, and not
Speaker 1: in a good way that it preps you for it,
Speaker 1: but like a whole life, were conditioned to give up
Speaker 1: the hours of our day to something that we might
Speaker 1: not always see a purpose in like you go to
Speaker 1: school from eight thirty three thirty and then you know,
Speaker 1: go to work from nine to five. Like I used
Speaker 1: to fall asleep in school classes. Yeah, I'm sure you
Speaker 1: would have. You would have been so bored. How can
Speaker 1: you how can you sit down that long? Anyway? So
Speaker 1: in terms of creating happiness in your workday, so you
Speaker 1: don't feel like that like me sitting at my desk
Speaker 1: going what the fuck am I doing? In existential having
Speaker 1: an existential crisis every single moment, you know, She was like,
Speaker 1: go get coffee if that's something that you like. Do
Speaker 1: something in the builds connection if that's something you like,
Speaker 1: you know, And I really I really appreciate that concept.
Speaker 1: And like going for a little walk in the afternoon,
Speaker 1: walk do it? Go for a little walk? Who's stopping you?
Speaker 1: You know? And let's talk about that. So that's actually
Speaker 1: really good skills, like really good habits to form, because
Speaker 1: I feel like I don't have that right now, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I often skip my lunch breaker, often don't go outside.
Speaker 1: I absolutely not. I drive to work and then today
Speaker 1: I saw the sunset and I like almost cried because
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, real existence. But let's talk about
Speaker 1: making the most of your off time because you do
Speaker 1: a really good job at that, do I Yeah, you
Speaker 1: do it. You're so good at it. I always like
Speaker 1: you just prioritize your friends, you do things that make
Speaker 1: you happy. Yeah, Like she works nine to five and
Speaker 1: she still has time to volunteer, Like, yeah, I've volunteered
Speaker 1: for about six years. Well, and it's what you value, right,
Speaker 1: I don't value work, So I think I do put
Speaker 1: a lot of time and energy into doing things, like
Speaker 1: on almost every day that I work, because I work
Speaker 1: four days and I'm at the moment on two of
Speaker 1: those four days. So fifty percent I have a set
Speaker 1: activity that I know I will be doing every week,
Speaker 1: and then the other fifty percent of that time I
Speaker 1: usually feel with spending time with friends. So I go
Speaker 1: to poll on Tuesday nine, which I love. So that's
Speaker 1: like my first day back at work. Absolutely heinous, gross,
Speaker 1: But I get to go to poll on the evening,
Speaker 1: and that's something I really like. I tried to get
Speaker 1: her into spin classes, but we tried once. We tried
Speaker 1: to spin On Wednesday. I cycle, so why would I
Speaker 1: spe when I cycle? But I still loved it, still
Speaker 1: loved it, of course, yeah, and then on Thursday, I
Speaker 1: play netball and it's like social netball, which is amazing
Speaker 1: and I've never pictured myself playing netball either, but it's
Speaker 1: really good because I get to spend time with a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of people that I really like and they're
Speaker 1: super lovely. And then on Friday, I usually do something
Speaker 1: really fun with my friends. Yeah, normally we get drunk
Speaker 1: or I go out for drinks. They're Actually that's an
Speaker 1: interesting topic, people drinking to forget the fact that they
Speaker 1: have to work five days a week, because I think
Speaker 1: that is a big thing to talk about. That's a
Speaker 1: big trend, especially in camera where a lot of people
Speaker 1: have disposable incomes and no children so and a job
Speaker 1: that means that they have both days on the weekend off. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's also a lot of young people, Like maybe
Speaker 1: I feel like most of the people who are listening,
Speaker 1: but like it's a lot of people who are like
Speaker 1: under the age of thirty, moved it for the aps
Speaker 1: and have just come into heaps of money off and
Speaker 1: moved out of home, and it is a huge thing. Also,
Speaker 1: the big thing is if you're young, like this is
Speaker 1: meant to be your time to really figure yourself out.
Speaker 1: If you're working all the time. When you do have
Speaker 1: time off, there's this huge compulsion to be like I
Speaker 1: need to have fun. I need to be fun, I
Speaker 1: need to like do things, make memories. And often that's like,
Speaker 1: well I need to be drunk, or like what's the
Speaker 1: socialize right and camera, there's not much to do if
Speaker 1: you're okay, we're not really outdoorsy people, like we have
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who like you ride me back,
Speaker 1: but like we have friends who are like, go to
Speaker 1: the snow u ye, tenaya, Lucy, they always go skiing,
Speaker 1: they always cycle meg. Yeah. I think there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people who do the weekend activities to require traveling
Speaker 1: and then your whole weekend this spank camping. I wish
Speaker 1: I could be that person. I think we should work
Speaker 1: on it. Maybe, um, hey, we're going to Braidwood this weekend.
Speaker 1: We're going to Braidwo. That's making the most of your week.
Speaker 1: But this is the we need We got off well
Speaker 1: actually quickly please sorry. We often get off tracking our conversations,
Speaker 1: in case you haven't noticed. That's the thing, right, And
Speaker 1: if you have three days a weekend, three days on
Speaker 1: your weekend, you can have a day going on a
Speaker 1: little trip, and your other days you don't only then
Speaker 1: have one day to get your whole life together and
Speaker 1: then go back to work on Monday. You have two
Speaker 1: days to get your life back together and go back
Speaker 1: to work. Or you could take a night time. You
Speaker 1: could go for a night. I mean you could do that.
Speaker 1: I guess if you go on. They got two days
Speaker 1: a week. Yeah, two days a week. Just basically what
Speaker 1: we're saying is so much more opportunity just to do
Speaker 1: more things. Yeah, And like Aaron was staying and like
Speaker 1: we kind of went off this point a little bit,
Speaker 1: But I do really want to talk about it because
Speaker 1: I think you raised a really good point. When everyone's young,
Speaker 1: everyone's been forced to these lives that they don't necessarily love.
Speaker 1: You've kind of cut short your young years, Pature. I've
Speaker 1: become like a fifty year old. I'm sitting here on
Speaker 1: my couch with my cat. Yeah, am I drinking tea?
Speaker 1: Drinking tea? Am I fifty? What what happened to my
Speaker 1: like twenty years? But this is the thing, because you
Speaker 1: always have that like what happened to my is? What
Speaker 1: happened to my young years? Where were they? What did
Speaker 1: I do Yeah, and linked yeah, and they was gone.
Speaker 1: And now I've sitting in an office. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: Now you sit in an office. And I think that
Speaker 1: is a thing that really like because this is the
Speaker 1: time to be young. And like we're talking about psychology here,
Speaker 1: our brains don't really want to be pushed in. We're
Speaker 1: still developing, so our brains are seeking new stimulation, new memories,
Speaker 1: new experiences. So you often see like there's nothing to
Speaker 1: do on the weekend. A lot of people have disposable income.
Speaker 1: Go out and get drunk, go out and drink and
Speaker 1: forget that, you know, and then you have to go
Speaker 1: to work in the day. Yeah, and the days then
Speaker 1: you know, it's awful because then you get really hungover
Speaker 1: and then not your whole Sunday is scorn anyhow, So
Speaker 1: now you only have a one day weekend. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: you know there is I actually there is actually a
Speaker 1: formula to making your days good. What is it? I've
Speaker 1: told you about this whole told me really Okay, so
Speaker 1: again sting my beautiful psychologist shout out um. She said
Speaker 1: that when I started having my Mondays off, she said, Okay,
Speaker 1: that's great. Don't spend all day on the couch resting,
Speaker 1: because whilst rest is great, you need to do something
Speaker 1: that makes you feel fulfilled. And so she said that
Speaker 1: you need to do something on that day that brings
Speaker 1: you joy, So something that you really like. So that
Speaker 1: could be like spending time with friends. Or I often
Speaker 1: like do a little bit of planting, like a new
Speaker 1: little plant, plant some seedlings, painting, painting, reading, reading, Um,
Speaker 1: something that's practical, so prepping dinner for next week, laundry.
Speaker 1: I often try to clean every Monday so the house
Speaker 1: is nice and clean for the week ahead. Um. You
Speaker 1: need to do something that's cognitive, so it like eaches
Speaker 1: a scratch in your brain. So easy. One is watching
Speaker 1: a documentary but scrabble crosswords crosswords scrabble, yes, I haven't
Speaker 1: thought of that one words. But or like researching a
Speaker 1: topic that you're really into, or you for qualification, you
Speaker 1: want podcast about something scientific or that's kind of my
Speaker 1: role of interest is like science and the climate and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Or like doing a bit of reading.
Speaker 1: You read the I read heaps, you read it so much.
Speaker 1: You read really intellectual stuff. I don't think so. I
Speaker 1: think I just read like really weird novels that are
Speaker 1: like kind of whack. But you were talking about reading that.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So my friend got like a New Yorker
Speaker 1: subscriptions and like when he's finished with them, he gives
Speaker 1: them to me. And I read this really insanely good
Speaker 1: article about the rise of a variant cancer and like
Speaker 1: rural Alabama and like the intersection between that and like
Speaker 1: medicaid and how like, yeah, this is a real detourl
Speaker 1: but it's a really good art. That's that's something that's cognitive, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it was actually was really fulfilling because I read
Speaker 1: it right before bed, and I felt like I had
Speaker 1: done something that challenged my brain rather than just pressing
Speaker 1: a button or the excels a sheet. And then you've
Speaker 1: got to do something that's physical, so exercise, So go
Speaker 1: for a walk. I love going for a walk up
Speaker 1: a hill where I live at the moment, and if
Speaker 1: you time it right, you can see a little sunset.
Speaker 1: Oh she's gorgeous. It's like a combination of joy, combination
Speaker 1: of joy, all the others, all the others. So something
Speaker 1: that brings you joy, something that is practical, Yeah, something
Speaker 1: that's cognitive, and something that's physical. There you go, there's
Speaker 1: the equation. That's the equation. So if you do all
Speaker 1: of those things in your day, then you'll feel better.
Speaker 1: You'll feel better. But I don't want to say you'll
Speaker 1: be happy, because happiness is a construct, but it is
Speaker 1: that really helps me and that makes me feel like
Speaker 1: i've because productivity, sometimes, I think can there's a very
Speaker 1: narrow field of what productivity actually is, and I think
Speaker 1: sometimes there's a big pushed to be production and what
Speaker 1: does productivity look like? And the rise of that girl,
Speaker 1: oh yeah trend on Instagram, which we could talk about ours,
Speaker 1: so we won't going well, we'll do it on our
Speaker 1: other episodes. Yeah, but that's also tied to like professional
Speaker 1: success and like having everything put together, and like a
Speaker 1: big part of that is like having the job or
Speaker 1: like working towards the job. And I think what we're
Speaker 1: really talking about here is like if we took the
Speaker 1: job out of the equation or the nine to five job,
Speaker 1: would everything really fall apart or would everyone get a
Speaker 1: little bit happier? Like universal basic income. Just look at
Speaker 1: the studies done with the universal basic income and how
Speaker 1: those that want to work work, people who find joy
Speaker 1: in working work, and people who don't get to pursue
Speaker 1: what they actually love. And I feel like everyone falls
Speaker 1: into place of doing things that, like, you know, that
Speaker 1: they would enjoy like, and that would actually they'd be
Speaker 1: good at, they'd be specialized at. You would have more
Speaker 1: productivity and efficiency, I think because you wouldn't have a
Speaker 1: bunch of people who feel compelled to work but not
Speaker 1: motivated to work, which is a huge thing. I'm sure
Speaker 1: you've seen like so many people who are like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I've got to go to work. And when they get
Speaker 1: to work, do you really think they're going to be
Speaker 1: They're like, yeah, I'm at work, Like, let me put
Speaker 1: in everything I've got, let me really commit to this. No,
Speaker 1: they're not going to flip and do that, especially when
Speaker 1: you're in your twenties or in your thirties, or when
Speaker 1: you're young and you have so much other shit that
Speaker 1: you want to do. And I just think like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I just don't think that it necessarily works. And I
Speaker 1: think with what you were saying about that equation, you've
Speaker 1: got these four things you need to prioritize. Do you
Speaker 1: find it easier to do it on days when you're
Speaker 1: not working? On days when you are, Oh, I don't
Speaker 1: think about it on days I work because I simply
Speaker 1: do not have time there. We go because by the
Speaker 1: time I have woken up, yeah, got myself to work,
Speaker 1: being at work, come home, I've got what three or
Speaker 1: four hours left in the day. Yeah, and most of
Speaker 1: that is spent eating dinner or having to cook dinner.
Speaker 1: So you're home by five. You want to be in
Speaker 1: bed by ten. Yeah, yeah, you want to be in
Speaker 1: bed by tenn feel like absolute crap the next one.
Speaker 1: You've got a shower, You've got a tidy up, do
Speaker 1: whatever you need to do in your house. So care
Speaker 1: of yourself, take care of yourself, eat so well. I'm
Speaker 1: at the end of the day often, as somebody who
Speaker 1: is a little bit introverted, I often just sit and
Speaker 1: watch television because I'm like, I do not have the
Speaker 1: mental capacity to do anything else that is slightly challenging. Yeah,
Speaker 1: or you know, you go and do something that is good,
Speaker 1: like you go to netball. There's your physical thing and
Speaker 1: there's your joy thing. Not really practical, but yeah, like
Speaker 1: physical and joyful. There's two things that are really nice,
Speaker 1: somewhat cognitive. But it's also like, but then you have
Speaker 1: less time to take care of yourself completely. So it's
Speaker 1: this whole thing. If it's like when eight hours of
Speaker 1: your day are gone and the first three hours two
Speaker 1: hours are spent just fucking getting ready and going to work, Well,
Speaker 1: I lie in bed for an hour because I literally
Speaker 1: don't want to go to work. Oh terrible. I always
Speaker 1: get my large take past seven, but I get up
Speaker 1: at seven forty, Yeah, because I wait to wake up
Speaker 1: and then be like, oh, I get a snooze a
Speaker 1: little bit, because if I wake up at seven forty,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be like, it's just not going to go. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been it'd really been cutting it finner and finn
Speaker 1: Like today I woke up at seven fifty and I
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, for forty minutes to get out of
Speaker 1: the door, Like I've actually I managed to perfect it
Speaker 1: down to fifteen minutes getting out of the door. At
Speaker 1: one stage when I just was so sad about going
Speaker 1: to work, I couldn't get out of bed, which is
Speaker 1: not that's not a good space to ban and I'm
Speaker 1: not there anymore. When I first started working my ninety
Speaker 1: five job, and there have been occasions as well that
Speaker 1: I have literally had to like I've not been able
Speaker 1: to get out of bed in the morning and I've
Speaker 1: slept in and then I've woken up at eleven and
Speaker 1: I've had to call work and have a chat to
Speaker 1: that would be like, Hey, this is going on. My
Speaker 1: mental health is not great at the moment, and I'm
Speaker 1: luckily they've been really understanding. But how much of that
Speaker 1: do you think was tied to work? Do you think
Speaker 1: it was? Just like I think it really it really
Speaker 1: was tied to work, and it was tied to the
Speaker 1: fact that I had no time for myself and I
Speaker 1: was just so exhausted and my mind was just not
Speaker 1: able to cope at all. And I think as well,
Speaker 1: like if you have a mental illness, like I find
Speaker 1: it really important to have time to prioritize just looking
Speaker 1: after myself because sometimes looking after yourself is quite difficult
Speaker 1: and sometimes it does take time to do things that
Speaker 1: other people could do quite quickly, you know. Um, so
Speaker 1: part of that is like if I have more time
Speaker 1: on the weekend, it is easier to do stuff like that. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: that's a really big thing. And I'm glad that you
Speaker 1: kind of recognize that and kind of took control and like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this needs to change. But it's you know, and you're
Speaker 1: really lucky that you they were somewhat Yeah, No, I
Speaker 1: was really lucky alessible around that ilexible. Yeah, but do
Speaker 1: you think if you weren't working your nine to five,
Speaker 1: what do you think you would be doing? Was that
Speaker 1: too much of a scary question? No? Um, sorry, I'm
Speaker 1: taking a moment to think. I had a concept to
Speaker 1: one stage really wanting to be able to do wolfing,
Speaker 1: which is like working on an organic farm wolfing woo
Speaker 1: f maybe just want to fum and so basically you
Speaker 1: work on an organic farm for free in exchange for
Speaker 1: like shelter and food. Wow, this is a real socialist episode,
Speaker 1: universal basing income free. Yeah, well because I was. I
Speaker 1: think I really enjoy doing things where they're super practical
Speaker 1: and whilst I did not grow up in a farm
Speaker 1: in buy any shape or form. I love plants, which
Speaker 1: you know she does. I own a lot of house
Speaker 1: plants and staring at them all right now it's about fifteen.
Speaker 1: They are very hard to miss. They are in your face.
Speaker 1: Well there's fifteen on that one table alone, I know
Speaker 1: the whole just screw book around and there's even more.
Speaker 1: But um, yeah, I just love the concept to like
Speaker 1: maybe live in a commune. Yeah, oh gosh, that's a
Speaker 1: terrible thing to say. No it's not, it's not at all.
Speaker 1: But why this? I feel like it's very like no, basic,
Speaker 1: No it's not. But if it's basic, we have to
Speaker 1: also examine, like why there's so many people want to do,
Speaker 1: Like how many people listening have those fantasies dropping everything
Speaker 1: and going and living in a van or traveling the
Speaker 1: world or moving to a new country, or like living
Speaker 1: in a commune. I think it's super stigmatized because it's
Speaker 1: the absolute other end of the spectrum from what a
Speaker 1: couple of society expects of you. Yeah, and so I
Speaker 1: find that sigmatized, like you're trying to be like unique,
Speaker 1: Like look at you go. It's like, actually, maybe you're
Speaker 1: just doing the thing that's right for you and you
Speaker 1: just are scared that you can't do it. Well, who
Speaker 1: who is meant to be living in an office? No?
Speaker 1: One not living? Sorry? Well practically yeah, if you consider
Speaker 1: you're spending how much five percent of your waking hours
Speaker 1: at work, But that does not include you know, the
Speaker 1: time's been getting ready for work, the commute, Like I'm
Speaker 1: what like an hour commute every day? Oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: Like I have to leave thirty minutes earlier, and then
Speaker 1: it takes me thirty minutes to get home. It's another hour.
Speaker 1: Then you have to get ready for work. Then you
Speaker 1: have to depress from work, and you have to have
Speaker 1: a shower, and then you know, if you want to
Speaker 1: go to the gym. Like, there's just all these things
Speaker 1: that become so much more limited, Whereas if you worked
Speaker 1: in a commune, you really have a lot more time
Speaker 1: just to actually exist and know yourself. And I think
Speaker 1: that's so important. I'm what working in an office does
Speaker 1: not do allow you space or time to be an individual,
Speaker 1: being an individual, because that's the last thing that capitalism
Speaker 1: will want. Yeah, can you imagine the world before apart
Speaker 1: if people actually realize that. And again, if this is
Speaker 1: your goal in life, I'm not dissing it, but moving
Speaker 1: up in a workplace, what is it like, what is
Speaker 1: it going to serve you? What are you going to
Speaker 1: get from that apart from like a weird narcissistic sense
Speaker 1: of power and money and money obviously. Yeah, I thought
Speaker 1: this as well, because I think when I was in
Speaker 1: high school, I was really like, all I want to
Speaker 1: do is make keep some money and be super successful.
Speaker 1: And everyone admire me. But why did you want to
Speaker 1: do that? Because I didn't have anything else that I
Speaker 1: thought would bring me meaning wow. So when I that's
Speaker 1: the thing, because I was like, this is what I've
Speaker 1: been taught will bring me, meaning this is what I imagine.
Speaker 1: People admire people who were rich, people admire people who
Speaker 1: were successful, and I'm so dependent on people admiring me.
Speaker 1: And then I got to UNI and about my second
Speaker 1: third year, I was like, really restructured that whole ideal,
Speaker 1: and I just had this moment where I was just like,
Speaker 1: that is actually not going to work for me. It's
Speaker 1: just not going to work for me because I'm a
Speaker 1: bit of a hypocrite because I do work nine to
Speaker 1: five now, don't know, but your life goal to become
Speaker 1: the CEO? Hell no, exactly, Hell no, you're not a hypocrite.
Speaker 1: You just exist within a capitalist or something. But also,
Speaker 1: I'm working because I know that I need money to
Speaker 1: go off and do the things that I want to do.
Speaker 1: And I think I've also been able to do other
Speaker 1: stuff alongside it, like I do this podcast, like have
Speaker 1: heaps of time for other things in my life. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that that was a huge thing that I
Speaker 1: had in my mind like this is what I need
Speaker 1: for my life, like this is what I want, And
Speaker 1: then I had to completely rethink it. And I used
Speaker 1: to always be like, oh, I'm imagine people who like,
Speaker 1: you're just going to be a bum all day. I
Speaker 1: was very conservative. I'm not now. Obviously that's discussed in
Speaker 1: the last episode. Yeah, yeah, done a one eighty. But
Speaker 1: I really think it's like restructuring your priorities. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people hit that point where they
Speaker 1: have that conundrum. And why do you think people have
Speaker 1: a midlife crisis? Yeah exactly, That's what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: because quarter life crisis is a quarter life crisis because
Speaker 1: you realize that, like what you're doing, what's it? Actually?
Speaker 1: I think actually quickly COVID has had a huge, huge,
Speaker 1: like generated a huge societal shift into wow, okay, life's
Speaker 1: actually quite short. Yeah, life is really uncertain. We don't
Speaker 1: know what's going on, So you better do something that
Speaker 1: you actually enjoy. Yeah, family, spend time with spend time
Speaker 1: with family. And I actually think that as well. And
Speaker 1: also just like how many workplaces, you know, how much
Speaker 1: we realize that actually you could take time off, oh,
Speaker 1: that you could work from home quickly, could be flexible
Speaker 1: half pay leave with half pay? What was that? I
Speaker 1: don't know when that's available to you, but it's a
Speaker 1: bit of a thing in the aps. If you take leave,
Speaker 1: take leave with half pay if you can afford it,
Speaker 1: because basically for that day of leave or days of leave,
Speaker 1: you will get half your pay. But that means you
Speaker 1: get twice as much leave. Oh, if you can afford it.
Speaker 1: If you can afford it. Concept. I didn't know that
Speaker 1: was something people could do until like eight months into
Speaker 1: working in this job. I want to do that. I
Speaker 1: don't get leave. You don't get leave. Are you a
Speaker 1: your contractor well, yeah, I just get I'm not on
Speaker 1: a permanent contract. Yeah, so I'm technically casual but I
Speaker 1: work well, but I don't know. But I on a
Speaker 1: perpose any permanent basis working nine to five. Oh my goodness.
Speaker 1: But I think it's just because I started out there
Speaker 1: as someone who was like just there as like a
Speaker 1: support person, like as a researcher, and then I got
Speaker 1: like promoted, not promoted, But that's how they get you.
Speaker 1: I love my workplace, but like it's not the workplace
Speaker 1: that I don't like, it's the concept of the work life. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's a really good thing to distinguish. Well, I truly
Speaker 1: and I have had a serious existential breakdown about this
Speaker 1: before now in front of my mom and my brother,
Speaker 1: where I literally lay on the kitchen floor and I
Speaker 1: cried because I was like, why can I not simply
Speaker 1: receive money for existing? Yeah? Why why do I have money?
Speaker 1: Why do I need money? And why do I have
Speaker 1: to work to a gidst? And I can, like, I
Speaker 1: can hear the economic bros shouting at me as I
Speaker 1: say this, shut up, bradsh something lame like that, But
Speaker 1: why like why, yeah, why do humans like we've created
Speaker 1: obviously this you should do. Yeah, but why why did it? Like,
Speaker 1: why didn't we choose it? I don't think about me
Speaker 1: existing actually requires dollar dollar bills? Yeah? Nothing, right, nothing?
Speaker 1: It obviously facilitates things like healthcare and so I'm going
Speaker 1: to live. But then again, why does that require dollar dollars?
Speaker 1: Does that require dollar dollar bills? Yeah, it wouldn't. Well,
Speaker 1: once upon a time, it wouldn't have. I mean, Barter,
Speaker 1: you also would have died at thirty five, But I
Speaker 1: also would have died. Oh, I would have died very
Speaker 1: early on. I got sick as a very young child,
Speaker 1: I would have been killed off early. Oh we do
Speaker 1: not condone infanticide on the school. No, no, no, no no,
Speaker 1: I was sorry, no, but you're right, like, why does
Speaker 1: everything require money? And that's what I think we were
Speaker 1: really getting out. What's the pressure? The pressure is money.
Speaker 1: The pressure is two things actually, like kind of what
Speaker 1: I was saying, the pressure to we need to be
Speaker 1: to be conforming and to be doing what you think
Speaker 1: is going to give you meaning and work as what
Speaker 1: has given so many generations of people meaning because that
Speaker 1: was really a necessity. And also money and money require
Speaker 1: allows you to do other things. But it's like that,
Speaker 1: it's like another equation where it's like, at what point
Speaker 1: do you not even have the time to spend the
Speaker 1: money that you are earning because you wanted to spend
Speaker 1: money on things that you like? And at what point
Speaker 1: are you just accumulating wealth? And for who was that
Speaker 1: going to go when you're dead? Where's that going to
Speaker 1: go when you're dead? And if we throw into this
Speaker 1: the good old little climate crisis working in the background,
Speaker 1: if we only have like have a much amount of
Speaker 1: time that we have left, which probably not a lot
Speaker 1: before things really hit the fan, hit the fan. Am
Speaker 1: I going to spend twenty of the best years that
Speaker 1: we have left on this planet as human beings before
Speaker 1: we go extinct? Sitting in an office staring at a
Speaker 1: computer screen like an episode of Black Men. We are
Speaker 1: living in an episode of Black Mirror. We really are.
Speaker 1: And seriously, I'm like, so, I mean, if this is
Speaker 1: a motivation to anybody quit your job, are you going
Speaker 1: to quit your job? Look, I need to figure out
Speaker 1: what I want to do that is not working nine
Speaker 1: to five, and then I will right now and I'm
Speaker 1: locked in the job that I'm in right now requires
Speaker 1: a certain period of time. Yeah, to do things in.
Speaker 1: So to do things in it's like a set a
Speaker 1: cent contract will say yea, So it's kind of like
Speaker 1: but if you have the opportunity, also if there's younger
Speaker 1: people who are like because I remember last year I
Speaker 1: had this whole thing. I was like, I just want
Speaker 1: to get a normal job, but I just want to
Speaker 1: work nine to five, and I thought that was going
Speaker 1: to make me happier. I was like, I just want
Speaker 1: to do it like that. No, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1: Spend as much time as you can on a center link.
Speaker 1: If you have that option or be just like doing
Speaker 1: other things, working jobs that don't you know, might be
Speaker 1: different hours, but like are a lot more suitable for
Speaker 1: your lifestyle. Having a nine to five job fitting into
Speaker 1: that lifestyle doesn't actually bring meaning. It doesn't make you
Speaker 1: a more mature person. You don't need to rush to
Speaker 1: grow up and fit into that because you just give
Speaker 1: away so much of your freedom. And even though you
Speaker 1: might have been told your whole life that that's something
Speaker 1: to aspire to and work towards, sometimes it's just not.
Speaker 1: It's just not. And you know, the grass is always
Speaker 1: grower on the other side. But yeah, exactly, that's what obviously,
Speaker 1: But if you seriously, like seriously consider what is it
Speaker 1: that brings you meaning and value, enjoy and enjoy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: for probably eighty percent of people it is. It is
Speaker 1: not working in an office. No, um, it's not for me.
Speaker 1: It's not for you. Yeah, oh it is. There we go,
Speaker 1: there's one hundred percent out of our sample of two.
Speaker 1: So obviously lessons peer reviewed research. Yeah, literally peer reviewed
Speaker 1: because we are peers. We need to say goodbye because
Speaker 1: we have recorded forty five minutes of this. But we hope,
Speaker 1: well I hope especially that This was kind of an
Speaker 1: informative look into what it's like transitioning into nine to
Speaker 1: five work when you're in your twenties, the psychological shifts
Speaker 1: and changes that you undergo, and yeah, what it means
Speaker 1: for your health, what it means for your sanity and
Speaker 1: your sense of self, and why it's probably not all
Speaker 1: it's cracked up to be. And yeah, I think it's
Speaker 1: just a good discussion of the pressures that you face
Speaker 1: to fit into that mold. Yeah, even if it's against
Speaker 1: your own well being. Yeah. So thanks Aaron, Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me. No, I love a good chat about that work. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no more work chat, No more work chat, no more
Speaker 1: work again. Can we ban them? I think we should.
Speaker 1: I think we definitely should. Anyhow, I hope you enjoyed
Speaker 1: this episode. We'll have a new episode next week. It's
Speaker 1: the Psychology of the Breakup. And yeah, spicy, spicy, it's
Speaker 1: the episode. Oh yeah, it's juicy. Indeed, everyone's giving me
Speaker 1: a knowing look. But thanks for tuning in. Follow us
Speaker 1: on Instagram and Facebook, and subscribe on Apple podcasts or
Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks so much.