Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the Very unprofessional podcast, whereby we talk through some of
Speaker 1: the big changes and transitions of our twenties and what
Speaker 1: they mean for our psychology. Chow bon jour. How are
Speaker 1: we all? Lockdown? Week five? Baby, just add an extension
Speaker 1: announced this morning, So here we are thriving. Thank you
Speaker 1: very much Andrew bar keeping us safe as always. But
Speaker 1: I hope you guys are all doing well wherever you
Speaker 1: may be listening Lockdown or not. Hope the sun is shining,
Speaker 1: that you're being COVID safe obviously, and that something amazing
Speaker 1: has happened to you this week. I'm just going to
Speaker 1: jump right into it. This topic, the friendship breakup, has
Speaker 1: been on my mind, taunting my dreams quite a bit
Speaker 1: for the past month or so, but I haven't really
Speaker 1: been able to work up the courage to record it
Speaker 1: or research it. I think for a few reasons. Firstly,
Speaker 1: it's insanely personal, and although I've talked about, you know,
Speaker 1: things like unrequited love and hookups and heartbreak on this podcast,
Speaker 1: this is the first episode where it would just be
Speaker 1: entirely natural for me to come off looking like the
Speaker 1: bad guy, which my ego obviously wasn't too fond of.
Speaker 1: And secondly, I didn't really want to do any injustice
Speaker 1: or harm to anyone who I was once friends with,
Speaker 1: who I have quote unquote broken up with, which will
Speaker 1: kind of discuss later on. And I think like another
Speaker 1: reason I was kind of hesitant about recording this is
Speaker 1: it's kind of painful to look back at experiences like that,
Speaker 1: and I just don't think I was really in the
Speaker 1: right headspace to like dig deep into past friendships which
Speaker 1: were insanely meaningful for me, but which have now faded, fizzled,
Speaker 1: we've gone our separate ways. But yeah, I've made peace
Speaker 1: with all those things. I talked to my therapist about it.
Speaker 1: Shout out Josie God, I love her so much of
Speaker 1: the best, and she said it was a good idea,
Speaker 1: perhaps even a little bit healing if I came at
Speaker 1: it with a wise mind, which is her favorite term.
Speaker 1: So here we are, recording in my car, yet again,
Speaker 1: ready to bury some hatches, discuss the psychology behind friendship
Speaker 1: breakups and the fizzle, and why that age old saying
Speaker 1: is true. You know, if you're not losing friends, you're
Speaker 1: not growing up. So strap in for a great episode.
Speaker 1: I do just want to say before we get into it,
Speaker 1: this is not some like personal rant about people who
Speaker 1: have left my life. No bad feelings will be shared here.
Speaker 1: I just think it's a really interesting topic and researching
Speaker 1: this has caused me to reflect on some of my
Speaker 1: own friendship breakups, and I think throughout this episode I
Speaker 1: was particularly reflecting on three friendships in particular that have
Speaker 1: all ended in the past year, and I just thought
Speaker 1: there was heaps to learn in this. Often I think
Speaker 1: uncharted to rain. Yeah, and I think I just received
Speaker 1: a lot of personal closure looking back at some of
Speaker 1: those friendships, thinking about what I could have done differently,
Speaker 1: or maybe what I didn't need to do, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would explain kind of my thinking behind it a
Speaker 1: little bit later. Yeah, And, like I said, a lot
Speaker 1: of personal closure that I would just love to share.
Speaker 1: So in researching this episode, I read an article that
Speaker 1: had probably one of the best titles, and it really
Speaker 1: I think inspired how where I kind of took this
Speaker 1: episode the form that it took. So if you want
Speaker 1: to read it, its title was friendship Breakups the most
Speaker 1: untold love story And isn't that the truth? Isn't that
Speaker 1: just a big cup of truth. Friendship breakups or fizzles,
Speaker 1: They're just as serious and can create the same feelings
Speaker 1: and reactions as normal breakups. You know, the loneliness, guilt,
Speaker 1: and awkwardness, the grief. Like grief can be a huge
Speaker 1: component that I think is often underappreciated and not really
Speaker 1: too often spoken about. And I think friendships also contain
Speaker 1: just as much love as romantic relationships can, and appreciation
Speaker 1: as well if you do them right, of course, and
Speaker 1: heaps of studies have proven time and time again that
Speaker 1: friendships are one of the most important ways to enrich
Speaker 1: your life. They improve your well being, they aid in
Speaker 1: the stable release of dopamine and serotonin, and they can
Speaker 1: help you cope with trauma, cope with things like your
Speaker 1: parents are like friendships are just as important as a
Speaker 1: as a part of your social network as a relationship is.
Speaker 1: So I think that yeah, they're just as important, but
Speaker 1: they aren't always held to the same esteem. And I
Speaker 1: think this all has to do with how our society
Speaker 1: creates like an internal hierarchy within our minds of which
Speaker 1: relationships are more important and us the level of emotions
Speaker 1: we're able to feel in those relationships and in response
Speaker 1: to them. So bear with me here, But in this hierarchy,
Speaker 1: friendships are not given nearly as much as importance I
Speaker 1: think as familial or intimate relationships. So you know, friends
Speaker 1: are just seen as more plentiful and replaceable, which I
Speaker 1: think is entirely incorrect. You know, good friendships, stable friendships,
Speaker 1: and lasting friendships are incredibly, incredibly rare, But we have
Speaker 1: been conditioned to place more emphasis on finding and keeping
Speaker 1: intimate partners, and there's a greater expectation of suffering in
Speaker 1: grief when romantic relationships end, whereas that kind of reaction
Speaker 1: over friendships I don't think is as normalized or expected,
Speaker 1: which is a huge problem as to why we don't
Speaker 1: really talk about what it kind of feels like to
Speaker 1: go through a painful end with a friend. I think
Speaker 1: people and people often underestimate what a big deal it
Speaker 1: is for a friendship to end, and they can just
Speaker 1: be you know, these breakups of sorts can be just
Speaker 1: as uncomfortable and sad as romantic endings. You know, I
Speaker 1: kind of I don't really want to stress this point,
Speaker 1: but I just think it's so important, Like you can
Speaker 1: share a similar level of intimacy memory is vulnerability with
Speaker 1: someone you will never romantic or sexual with, and when
Speaker 1: those relationships come to an end, there is an emptiness
Speaker 1: in their place, because no one is entirely replaceable, and
Speaker 1: every individual brings something entirely different to your life, even
Speaker 1: if that friendship is no longer fruitful or successful. I
Speaker 1: had this actually with someone like thinking of them. I
Speaker 1: had this or someone at the end of last year,
Speaker 1: and I think as much as it was important to
Speaker 1: no longer speak to this friend and essentially cut them off,
Speaker 1: there are times that I really miss them and I
Speaker 1: missed their presence because we did share a lot of
Speaker 1: memories and a lot of personal vulnerability. So it was
Speaker 1: a hard conundrum, and I've have had quite a few
Speaker 1: moments I won't lie where I've wanted to reach out,
Speaker 1: where I've wanted to message them, rekindle the conversation, talk
Speaker 1: it kind of about what went wrong, But I just
Speaker 1: realized that it is for the best that we're no
Speaker 1: longer in each other's lives, and as far as I
Speaker 1: can see, they're really happy and so am I. So
Speaker 1: I think it's just best to leave it be, even
Speaker 1: though it's really fucking awkward. When I run into them
Speaker 1: in Dixon Woolley's. Yeah, maybe if they're listening to this,
Speaker 1: they'll know it's about them. But yeah, I think no
Speaker 1: one's entirely replaceable, even when you do know that those
Speaker 1: friendships aren't meant to last. And like I said, as
Speaker 1: important as friendships are, romantic relationships tend to get all
Speaker 1: the glory. Meanwhile, the platonic ones, they're really undervalued, I think.
Speaker 1: And I read an excellent chapter of this book. It's
Speaker 1: called The Friendship Fix. Would definitely recommend it if you're
Speaker 1: into this kind of literature, and it's written by this psychologist.
Speaker 1: Her name is doctor Andrew Bonnar, and this is what
Speaker 1: she kind of explains. Because there is not the weighty
Speaker 1: expectation of monogamy which is often associated with romantic relationships,
Speaker 1: people have a much harder time ending friendships. So this
Speaker 1: was a bit confusing when I first read it, and
Speaker 1: I did think it was like a bit of a stretch,
Speaker 1: But this is how she explains it, and it makes
Speaker 1: a lot more sense when you read more of the book. So,
Speaker 1: when you're in a relationship with someone and you're in
Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship, a close relationship, you have to break
Speaker 1: up with a partner in order to move on to
Speaker 1: someone new, So you know, you have to break up
Speaker 1: with them. It's an action that has to happen for
Speaker 1: you to move on to any relationship. But in terms
Speaker 1: of a friendship, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from
Speaker 1: avoiding a friendship breakup, indefinitely, putting off the confrontation and
Speaker 1: just hanging out with other people instead. You know, you
Speaker 1: can't cheat on your friends the way that you could
Speaker 1: cheat on a partner, and you can have multiple friends,
Speaker 1: whereas in relationships we have that expectation of monogamy. So
Speaker 1: often what happens is we end up staying in these
Speaker 1: friendships and prolonging them with you know, little snippets of
Speaker 1: interactions when we should just be cutting ties. I think
Speaker 1: also unlike our romantic relationships or you know, however, unlike
Speaker 1: romantic relationships in which there is kind of an understanding
Speaker 1: that things may not work out, and that's kind of
Speaker 1: part of the agreement you both sign up for. You know,
Speaker 1: the inevitability of a breakup from a relationship in your
Speaker 1: teenage years or you know, in your twenties, an it's understood.
Speaker 1: It's a dynamic of a romantic attachment. But with friendships,
Speaker 1: we assume that our friends will be around forever. We
Speaker 1: expect that will be you know, old people retiring together,
Speaker 1: beat each other's weddings, meet the family, meet each other's kids.
Speaker 1: So this means that if there is a break up,
Speaker 1: we aren't just grieving the present loss of that friend,
Speaker 1: but also the loss of that friend in our imagined future.
Speaker 1: It also makes ending of friendships quite awkward and appears unnecessary.
Speaker 1: You know, why do we need to break up with
Speaker 1: a friend? Why not just let it fizzle and let
Speaker 1: the debris settle. I think sometimes that's just not really
Speaker 1: a healthy option. Sometimes it's also not the best way
Speaker 1: to avoid hurt. Like the last taste of your friendship
Speaker 1: should not be one of bitterness and resentment. So sometimes
Speaker 1: you do need to have that chat with them. You
Speaker 1: need to talk to them and be like, this isn't
Speaker 1: really working. The same book I was reading kind of
Speaker 1: goes into this a little bit more, and it concluded
Speaker 1: that there were two main reasons why friendships end. But
Speaker 1: I think I've added a third because I think it
Speaker 1: also deserves acknowledgement. That's the fizzle. So these are the
Speaker 1: three reasons the three big, fat reasons why this psychologist
Speaker 1: believes that friendships end. So Number one, something bad happens,
Speaker 1: a betrayal, circumstances that make you realize that you and
Speaker 1: that the person can no longer be friends. These are
Speaker 1: relationships that end because of something really terrible, often resulting
Speaker 1: in maybe a big fight or something of that genre.
Speaker 1: It's not reparable the fizzle. You just lose your chemistry
Speaker 1: with someone. You drift. That's that, no harm, no foul,
Speaker 1: no falling out. You have those friends you were really
Speaker 1: close to at some point, and now the conversation no
Speaker 1: longer flows in the same manner, and you both kind
Speaker 1: of recognize that you don't really have that same spark.
Speaker 1: And finally, incompatibility and values, perhaps you were really good
Speaker 1: friends for some time, but as you've grown, your compatibility
Speaker 1: and values in life have changed. Or maybe your values
Speaker 1: really never aligned in the first place, and something has
Speaker 1: made you realize that, or just made you realize that
Speaker 1: you expect different things from each other as friends, and
Speaker 1: I think in general this is the most common reason
Speaker 1: friendships typically come to an end, because there is a
Speaker 1: disconnect that one or both of you feel is beyond repair.
Speaker 1: It's not nasty. It's not a negative thing. You're simply
Speaker 1: going through different life transitions that are going to take
Speaker 1: you to different places. And there's that age old wisdom.
Speaker 1: My friend Lucy to tell this to me the other day.
Speaker 1: People come into your life for a reason, a season
Speaker 1: or a lifetime, and that applies to friendships, I think
Speaker 1: more than any other kind of relationship. Think about all
Speaker 1: those people that you know from high school who are
Speaker 1: still friends with the exact same people. They just has
Speaker 1: to be. I think some tension and incompatibility in these situations.
Speaker 1: You know, how can you be on the same trajectory
Speaker 1: as every person in your life that you have ever
Speaker 1: shared a friendship with. People Change and stagnation is really unhealthy.
Speaker 1: It doesn't allow your brain to move, grow, change, and
Speaker 1: it doesn't give you new experiences or new ways to
Speaker 1: learn with new people. Because if you're keeping all those
Speaker 1: people that you've always been friends with, there's no room
Speaker 1: for new people. There's no room for someone else. And
Speaker 1: that kind of means it's necessary to shed or relationships
Speaker 1: to grow into your new skin. Like I said, imagine
Speaker 1: if you were friends with every person you have ever
Speaker 1: shared a connection with like it would be a fucking
Speaker 1: full time job and more to stay in contact with
Speaker 1: all of them, to hear about, provide support to all
Speaker 1: of them, to have to stay up to date with
Speaker 1: their lives. Essentially, I think, although that was a bit
Speaker 1: of a rant, what I'm trying to kind of communicate
Speaker 1: is that friendships ending is not only normal, but also
Speaker 1: a necessary part of growth, and it should be something
Speaker 1: that we are more honest about. If you and a
Speaker 1: person are no longer compatible, you have different priorities, you
Speaker 1: know why, for said at that stage, would it not
Speaker 1: just be better to give each other the freedom to
Speaker 1: move on and transform into the new versions of yourselves,
Speaker 1: rather than you both kind of having to appease those
Speaker 1: who are now a reflection of a past you. I
Speaker 1: think there is one element of friendship breaks ups that
Speaker 1: I do really want to touch on, though because I'm
Speaker 1: very not I don't want to say like, I'm a
Speaker 1: pro friendship breakup person, but I'm pro cultivating the right
Speaker 1: relationships for you. We often hear someone refer to an
Speaker 1: ex friend as toxic or they bring negative energy into
Speaker 1: their life, and I'm sure we've all used that word.
Speaker 1: Or you know their toxic is farc or their relationship
Speaker 1: was like so it was like really toxic, Like they're
Speaker 1: a toxic person. And I kind of have always had
Speaker 1: a bit of a problem with this, like do toxic
Speaker 1: people really exist? Is this a reason to kind of
Speaker 1: justify ending a friendship with someone that they're toxic, They're
Speaker 1: inherently toxic. And I do have a bit of a
Speaker 1: particular opinion about this obviously that I don't think is
Speaker 1: necessarily shared by everyone. But I really don't think that
Speaker 1: toxic people as a category exist. I don't think that
Speaker 1: anyone in particular is, you know, just toxic to their core.
Speaker 1: People just have friction with other people and not with others,
Speaker 1: and that creates negativity. And that toxicity that we associate
Speaker 1: with someone in particular, it's not that person. It's your
Speaker 1: relationship within with that person, not them, And I think
Speaker 1: those are those things that we can't really confuse and
Speaker 1: because of your relationship and because it's not compatible, that's
Speaker 1: what creates that negativity. Like, no one is toxic. I
Speaker 1: hate that phrase. I don't think that we can claim
Speaker 1: anyone is toxic. But with that in mind, I do
Speaker 1: think there obviously is a certain point where friendships do
Speaker 1: cross boundaries and become an increasingly negative force on your life,
Speaker 1: and psychological research does say there are certain personality types
Speaker 1: that do tend to conflict with others, meaning that those
Speaker 1: relationships are more likely to be kind of charged with negativity.
Speaker 1: So these types of people have, like I said, distinct
Speaker 1: personalities or ways of operating socially, but this doesn't make
Speaker 1: them entirely toxic or toxic for everyone. They just might
Speaker 1: not be the most compatible with you or with the
Speaker 1: majority of people. So according to some of this recent
Speaker 1: research that I stumbled across, and this was really interesting
Speaker 1: because I've never heard of this concept before, but this
Speaker 1: researcher suggests that there are at least four basic types
Speaker 1: of people that we generally may see as toxic, So
Speaker 1: the narcissistic as narcissistic aggressive person, the phren of me,
Speaker 1: the negative complaining person, and the seductive overly dramatic person.
Speaker 1: Starting off, so, the narcissistic aggressive type is often someone
Speaker 1: who is selfish but still highly charming, so they charm
Speaker 1: and suck you in and can be rather assertive, but
Speaker 1: they're also inclined towards possessiveness. So although the initial stages
Speaker 1: of the friendship may be very gioy and exciting, pleasant
Speaker 1: even there is often a degree of rage or anger
Speaker 1: when things don't grow their own way, and intense outbursts.
Speaker 1: Almost when you spend time with people or they tend
Speaker 1: to or you know, they might perceive that you're neglecting them.
Speaker 1: So the fhren of me is the next archetype. So
Speaker 1: they seem like a friend, but can often become jealous.
Speaker 1: Perhaps they're prone to gossip and you feel like you
Speaker 1: just can't trust them. You might even feel inclined to
Speaker 1: say that they're or perhaps see that they're deliberately trying
Speaker 1: to sabotage your happiness amongst other people in order to
Speaker 1: kind of bolster their self worth self esteem as well.
Speaker 1: And by sabotaging those other relationships, it also increases your
Speaker 1: reliance on them. So the third archetype this is the
Speaker 1: negative complaining person, and this is someone who never never
Speaker 1: appears happy. They're never satisfied with your friendship and what
Speaker 1: you have to give them in any way. Nothing pleases them.
Speaker 1: And I had a friend like this, and my fucking god,
Speaker 1: it was exhausting being around. You know, someone who regards
Speaker 1: their life as terrible and can never take encouragement is exhausting,
Speaker 1: it's so tiring, it makes you feel depressed. You just
Speaker 1: feel so hopeless, and you want to help them, but
Speaker 1: it's just sometimes there's just as people who are just
Speaker 1: ultimately pessimistic and perhaps at first, you know, like other archetypes,
Speaker 1: they appear really friendly and they're open to adventure, but
Speaker 1: it can often change into passive aggression and need to
Speaker 1: dominate your social life and a pattern of negativity that
Speaker 1: is really difficult to deal with and it's difficult to overcome,
Speaker 1: and it's I think a being indicator of this type
Speaker 1: of person, the negative complaining person is that it's emotionally
Speaker 1: draining to be around them, and it's emotionally draining to
Speaker 1: hear how everyone and everything in life is failing them
Speaker 1: and going poorly whilst you're trying to hold them up
Speaker 1: trying to support them. Finally, the seductive, overly dramatic person.
Speaker 1: So these people, they're often the life of the party.
Speaker 1: They're physically attractive, intelligent, charming, exciting, but they steamroll you.
Speaker 1: They require all of your attention. This is the type
Speaker 1: of person or individual who never seems to be listening
Speaker 1: when you're telling them your issues, or they're interrupt and
Speaker 1: trying to make something funnier about them just cut you off.
Speaker 1: They talk over you, and they often require a lot
Speaker 1: of attention and energy, but almost never seem to come
Speaker 1: through for you, or they never really seem to acknowledge
Speaker 1: you either. You're just kind of an accessory for them.
Speaker 1: They crave attention, but it can leave you as the
Speaker 1: friend feeling pretty depleted and unworthy, unseen or useles. So,
Speaker 1: knowing that there are these types of people out there,
Speaker 1: I'm sure we can all conjure upon some image of
Speaker 1: someone who would fit into at least one of these
Speaker 1: four categories. But then there's the question, we all know
Speaker 1: someone like this, So why do we continue to remain
Speaker 1: friends with people who treat us poorly or who make
Speaker 1: us feel unappreciated. So one reason why we remain friends
Speaker 1: with people a lot longer than necessary is fear. It's
Speaker 1: fear of loneliness. Humans have a natural drive to avoid loneliness.
Speaker 1: It's built into our DNA. So when we feel less
Speaker 1: socially connected or separated, or feel like a member of
Speaker 1: our extended tribe essentially is treating us poorly or withdrawing,
Speaker 1: It creates this visceral knee jerk reaction. Emotionally and as
Speaker 1: a tribal species, our brains have adapted to rely on
Speaker 1: social connections as a means to survive. So, according to
Speaker 1: this neuroscience scientist, his name was John Kaciopo. Kaciopo, John Kaciopo,
Speaker 1: I'll put it in the show notes. You can have
Speaker 1: a look at it if you want. He's made a
Speaker 1: career out of basically just studying loneliness, a really kind
Speaker 1: of a sad niche and in one of his recent
Speaker 1: papers he made this point. So, the absence of social
Speaker 1: connection triggers the same primal alarm bells as hunger, thirst,
Speaker 1: and physical pain. So this is what leads us to
Speaker 1: maintain friendships even when they are incompatible or we no
Speaker 1: longer feel satisfied, especially if we feel like we have
Speaker 1: limited options beyond that friend or group of friends. Additionally,
Speaker 1: unhealthy friendships can do enormous damage to your confidence levels
Speaker 1: without you even realizing it. So the idea of leaving
Speaker 1: what is comfortable, even if it's not fulfilling, and going
Speaker 1: out to find new friends it can be extra terrifying
Speaker 1: if you already are in a place of depleted self esteem.
Speaker 1: This also kind of leads on to another reason why
Speaker 1: we stay friends with people who might not necessarily be
Speaker 1: the best fit for our character or bring out the
Speaker 1: best aspects of who we are. We want to feel needed.
Speaker 1: Everyone wants to feel like they provide value to the world,
Speaker 1: and if we're there for our friends, if we have friends,
Speaker 1: it makes us feel like we're valuable. And social connections
Speaker 1: are also an incredibly meaningful and often understated way in
Speaker 1: which we feel we have purpose. Friendships and social ties
Speaker 1: they allow us to situate ourselves in our external world,
Speaker 1: and internally they make us feel secure and supported, especially
Speaker 1: when our presence is serving a function for someone else.
Speaker 1: The underlying psychology and the socially tuned nature of our
Speaker 1: brain can also make it exceptionally difficult to end friendships,
Speaker 1: especially if, like in a breakup, we're concentrating on times
Speaker 1: when our friendships were positive and warm and glowy and nice.
Speaker 1: Friendships have a honeymoon face, just like relationships. But I
Speaker 1: think just like relationships, we also tend to outgrow them.
Speaker 1: Like I said, if you're not losing friends, you're not growing.
Speaker 1: But I think the important thing to remember and I
Speaker 1: know it's just like this isn't like a necessarily very
Speaker 1: wise thing to say. I just think it's a nice
Speaker 1: way to end the episode. Is that friends should be
Speaker 1: there to support you and to enrich your life, and
Speaker 1: if they're bringing you down, it's probably time to move on.
Speaker 1: If you don't enjoy their company, move on. The people
Speaker 1: you choose to surround yourself with should be great spirits,
Speaker 1: and they should inspire you to be the absolute best
Speaker 1: you can and just create that energy that you yourself
Speaker 1: funding and body and represent. I think in our twenties
Speaker 1: it's inevitable you're going to go through a friendship breakup,
Speaker 1: but recognizing when it is time to move on and
Speaker 1: handling it with grace is kind of our best option
Speaker 1: at that point. Honestly, I don't know, this is a
Speaker 1: bit weird, but why not have like a breakup chat
Speaker 1: about it. I've done it with friends before. It kind
Speaker 1: of curbs the awkwardness. And obviously that's not an option
Speaker 1: for everyone. If someone's done something really terrible to you,
Speaker 1: cut them out. You know, vibe so high you don't
Speaker 1: need them. Sometimes you know you're just going to have
Speaker 1: to have awkward run ins with X friends and just
Speaker 1: hope that you're both mature mature enough to like not
Speaker 1: mention it and just ask how each other have been
Speaker 1: and move on, me the bigger person. Anyhow, I hope
Speaker 1: you guys enjoyed this episode. Like I kind of mentioned,
Speaker 1: it was incredibly cathartic, and it's kind of been building
Speaker 1: up in my notes archive for a while. So I
Speaker 1: just think it's super important to talk about friendship breakups.
Speaker 1: They're everywhere. We can all think of someone who we're
Speaker 1: no longer friends with, maybe we even resent them, we
Speaker 1: haven't forgiven them for something. It feels like that refrenchhip
Speaker 1: felt like a relationship even so, definitely something I think
Speaker 1: needs to be talked about more So. I hope that
Speaker 1: kind of understanding some of the psychology behind it was interesting,
Speaker 1: And like I said, like I always say, I guess,
Speaker 1: remember to subscribe to this podcast if you liked it
Speaker 1: on wherever you're listening. Honestly, I'm sure you can subscribe
Speaker 1: there unless it's like on the website like my grandparents
Speaker 1: do it. And I hope that we're all coping well
Speaker 1: with lockdown and whatever is going on with your life. Yeah,
Speaker 1: feel free to drop some suggestions as well on Instagram
Speaker 1: if you've got any ideas about what you want to
Speaker 1: hear about on the next episode of the show, and
Speaker 1: as always, thanks so much for listening.