Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast whereby we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: changes and transitions of our twenties and what they mean
Speaker 1: for our psychology. Okay, this week we're talking about narcissism
Speaker 1: and the narcissist. You know, what better week to kind
Speaker 1: of talk about this. My ex boyfriend popped up to
Speaker 1: me in case anyone was interested, So I was like, Wow,
Speaker 1: that kind of reminds me of a topic I haven't
Speaker 1: covered yet. What better way to kind of take some
Speaker 1: inspiration from my own life. Let him know him still
Speaker 1: thinking about him, No old jokes aside. I have really
Speaker 1: wanted to cover this for a while. I think it's
Speaker 1: a really interesting personality disorder, and a lot of the
Speaker 1: time on this show we don't really discuss I think
Speaker 1: clinical disorders or pathological disorders. It's more like a broader
Speaker 1: discussion of things with I think some tenuous links to
Speaker 1: psychology and kind of jumping into it. But I really
Speaker 1: wanted to discuss the psychology of narcissism because I think
Speaker 1: that it's become a term used very frequently. It's one
Speaker 1: of those crossovers between pop culture and psychology. That's we're
Speaker 1: seeing a lot more of these days. Another example is
Speaker 1: like gaslighting, People use that all the time, or saying
Speaker 1: that someone is a narcissist is obviously at a pretty
Speaker 1: big one, but I do think we all know someone
Speaker 1: who's a narcissist. Just take a moment think about the
Speaker 1: people in your life. Maybe self diag knows them. Maybe
Speaker 1: you've even had thoughts that you are a narcissist. And
Speaker 1: if you have no fear, because that probably means that
Speaker 1: you're not, which we're going to discuss in this episode.
Speaker 1: I think in your twenties, you are very likely to
Speaker 1: encounter kind of a new breed of person as our
Speaker 1: identities become more developed, someone who's egos a little bit
Speaker 1: too big for their boots to hold. So if these
Speaker 1: people exist and we're likely to encounter them, and you know, now,
Speaker 1: twenties is probably the first time we really meet someone
Speaker 1: that's like this and we're able to see that that's abnormal.
Speaker 1: How do we have relationships with these people? How do
Speaker 1: we interact with them, how do we work with them,
Speaker 1: how do we date them? I also really wanted to
Speaker 1: explore some of the misconceptions around narcissism, like I said,
Speaker 1: it is such a popularized term, but how often do
Speaker 1: we just use it quite flippantly without really knowing what
Speaker 1: it actually means and whether someone actually is a narcissist,
Speaker 1: whether we can call them that. So we're going to
Speaker 1: discuss also some of the clinical implications of narcissism. So
Speaker 1: where does it come from, this discussion that it's in
Speaker 1: every corner of psychology. Is narcissism nature or nurture? Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a huge debate that's been raised for a long time,
Speaker 1: and I don't think psychology is coming any closer to
Speaker 1: finding a real answer for that. Another big question is,
Speaker 1: you know, does narcissism have a cure and should we
Speaker 1: deal with it? Well, there we go, brief intermission, bless me.
Speaker 1: Anyhow does narcissism have a cure? And should we deal
Speaker 1: with it as a mental disorder, perhaps a condition, rather
Speaker 1: than just seeing it as maybe a fault of someone's character. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just some really big questions. But I think on a
Speaker 1: more personal note, we're going to discuss narcissism in our
Speaker 1: own lives. What it means for someone to be a narcissist,
Speaker 1: how they operate their behaviors, what it's like to date
Speaker 1: someone who's a narcissist, what it's like to be around
Speaker 1: people who are narcissist, and how to kind of escape
Speaker 1: the manipulation in the charisma of a narcissist. And don't worry,
Speaker 1: I do get the irony. I think it's kind of funny.
Speaker 1: Like here I am, you know, making my own podcast,
Speaker 1: like listening to the sound of my voice, and the
Speaker 1: episode is on narcissism. But maybe I'll I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm a narcissist, but maybe someone will
Speaker 1: think I am after listening to some of these criteria.
Speaker 1: So buckle in because I've got a lot of energy today.
Speaker 1: Like I said, it's been a very complicated week, and
Speaker 1: this is a topic I really want to dig into,
Speaker 1: so let's do it. So narcissism is extreme self involvement
Speaker 1: to the degree that it makes a person ignore the
Speaker 1: needs of those around them. So while everyone you know
Speaker 1: may show occasional narcissistic behavior, because as my good friend
Speaker 1: Kate says, everyone is the center of their own universe,
Speaker 1: so it makes sense that sometimes you have self involvement.
Speaker 1: But true narcissists they will frequently discard others feelings and
Speaker 1: don't even seem to be aware of them, So they
Speaker 1: also just do not understand the effect that their behavior
Speaker 1: has on other people, so they're unable to comprehend how
Speaker 1: their own self involved behaviors have first and second order consequences.
Speaker 1: There are no physical blood tests, MRIs GP appointments, or
Speaker 1: you know, exact biological determinations that can identify a narcissist.
Speaker 1: Even therapists do just have to go on observations of
Speaker 1: the behavior and the attitude that a person presents. There's
Speaker 1: no like quiz like you might see people like posting
Speaker 1: things or like BuzzFeed quiz is are like are you
Speaker 1: a narcissist? But that's not how it works. They basically
Speaker 1: have to just base what they're seeing in a person
Speaker 1: off of the DSM criteria. And some of these criteria
Speaker 1: include superiority and entitlement, which we've talked about, So someone
Speaker 1: feeling like they deserve anything they would like and just
Speaker 1: go to any means to obtain that, regardless of who
Speaker 1: they step on. For a narcissist, like there is no
Speaker 1: such thing as being wrong or feeling inferior. This also
Speaker 1: kind of goes along with an exaggerated need for attention
Speaker 1: and validation, as well as like this need to control
Speaker 1: their relationships as well as their work and their own lives.
Speaker 1: And I think the three biggest indicators though that are like, firstly,
Speaker 1: you know, massive red flags in any relationship but also
Speaker 1: cause a lot of interpersonal conflict and difficulty. And then
Speaker 1: these three huge red flags related to narcissism and how
Speaker 1: it presents in people. These are a lack of boundaries,
Speaker 1: lack of responsibility for their own actions. So someone who
Speaker 1: is a narcissist, they always blame outside events or people
Speaker 1: or emotions for their own actions, which, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I can relate to. That was just like this person
Speaker 1: I used to date, and any time I'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, probably shouldn't have treated me like that, probably
Speaker 1: shouldn't have said that, didn't didn't really appreciate that. They'd
Speaker 1: be like, oh, you know, it's just because of this
Speaker 1: that's happened, And it's because I've because I'm suffering, it's
Speaker 1: because of my emotions, Like, it has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with you, has nothing to do with me not caring
Speaker 1: about you, it has everything to do with external events.
Speaker 1: And finally, a big red flag and a big thing
Speaker 1: that narcissists often show is just a general lack of empathy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Like I said, like the lack of responsibility was a big,
Speaker 1: big one for me that I think I saw in
Speaker 1: this person that I used to date, you know, anytime
Speaker 1: they did something wrong and we're confronted with this, they
Speaker 1: could never see the hurt that that would cause, and
Speaker 1: would constantly blame these external events, particularly like UNI and
Speaker 1: stress and housing situation, so they just were unable to
Speaker 1: be held accountable for how they treated others. There was
Speaker 1: also always like an urgency to make things right so
Speaker 1: that they could redeem themselves as the good guy, rather
Speaker 1: than like actually taking real and honest responsibility for their actions.
Speaker 1: But even in those situations, he only really seemed aware
Speaker 1: of his own emotions in terms of, like he's upset me.
Speaker 1: It's not that he wants me to feel better, it's
Speaker 1: that he doesn't want to feel bad about it anymore.
Speaker 1: And I think that's a big common misconception about narcissism,
Speaker 1: that they can't feel emotions. They can, they can feel emotions,
Speaker 1: but they can't see those same emotions in others. They
Speaker 1: can recognize them, but even that maybe not as much
Speaker 1: as a normal person or someone who was an EmPATH
Speaker 1: could and although they can see emotions and others, they
Speaker 1: can never really comprehend that the intensity that someone is
Speaker 1: feeling an emotion might be the same intensity they would
Speaker 1: feel that emotion, So things like anger, sadness, guilt, grief,
Speaker 1: they can feel all these things, but they're unable to
Speaker 1: connect the emotions they're feeling with the experiences of others.
Speaker 1: This is why they also seem to have really poor
Speaker 1: emotional regulation, you know, large up and downs, falls and
Speaker 1: self esteem and then return to this grandiose sense of self.
Speaker 1: Another big trait is an inability to appreciate how others
Speaker 1: see them, and an obsession with outside perceptions and being
Speaker 1: liked and in people's focus, you know, like calling yourself
Speaker 1: a big name for example, like constantly feeling the need
Speaker 1: to be important, starting new projects that you think will
Speaker 1: make others like you. So they often idealize others that
Speaker 1: represent perfection, which is kind of followed by devaluing that
Speaker 1: very person when they are perceived to have failed them. So,
Speaker 1: you know, you might have someone that this anarcissists might
Speaker 1: have someone they really look up to, and their opinion
Speaker 1: is just seemed so so important. In the obsession of it,
Speaker 1: whether they like them, trying to become closer to them.
Speaker 1: But then they're also highly dismissive of that person because
Speaker 1: if they can't live up to the expectations they feel
Speaker 1: that person might have for them, it's a lot easier
Speaker 1: to knock that person down in your own mind than
Speaker 1: address your own ego. Anyhow, well, all this paints a
Speaker 1: very flattering picture. I think it's fairly obvious how so
Speaker 1: many of these traits would make friendships and relationships with
Speaker 1: these kinds of people fairly difficult. I think it's hard
Speaker 1: to be emotionally attached to someone who is incapable of
Speaker 1: ever relating to how you feel, and clinically as well
Speaker 1: as chronically, they just don't care. It's not even like
Speaker 1: they have any control over it. It's just like the
Speaker 1: path your pathological apathy, even to those that they you
Speaker 1: would think that they would love, and they're just so
Speaker 1: focused on themselves that they cannot really see their partner
Speaker 1: as a separate person. They tend to only see their
Speaker 1: partner in terms of how they feel their needs or
Speaker 1: fail to feel their needs. And on the other side
Speaker 1: of the coin, I think often from like doing some research,
Speaker 1: and like personal experience and just talking to people who've
Speaker 1: had this experience, the dynamics often play out a lot
Speaker 1: more insidiously, So you might talk about an issue and
Speaker 1: your partner relates it immediately to something that happened to them,
Speaker 1: and your story kind of fades as THEIRS takeover, or
Speaker 1: you know, you and your partner or your boyfriend or
Speaker 1: your girlfriend disagree and somehow you end up, you know,
Speaker 1: second guessing yourself as if kind of descent will threaten
Speaker 1: their whole well being. So you don't want to You
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. You don't want to have
Speaker 1: to face what happens when you tell them they're wrong,
Speaker 1: and any needs you communicate that aren't in line with
Speaker 1: THEIRS may just be thrown back at you as a
Speaker 1: character floor of yourself or is something that's wrong with you.
Speaker 1: These are just like a few examples of what a
Speaker 1: relationship with a narcissist might look like, and I think
Speaker 1: really importantly, falling in love can put you off balance,
Speaker 1: but standing in a love that is that you trust,
Speaker 1: and standing in a love when you know you're cad
Speaker 1: about that firmly grounds you and an absolutely essential agreement
Speaker 1: of any good relationship I think is like emotional safety,
Speaker 1: Like you need to feel safe to be your authentic
Speaker 1: self and to be happy. But it's very difficult to
Speaker 1: be yourself and to feel connected to yourself when you
Speaker 1: have such an emotionally volatile partner, which might be the
Speaker 1: case with a narcissist. I think another really important thing,
Speaker 1: and I read this really interesting article that was talking
Speaker 1: about this, relationships with a person who has narcissistic traits
Speaker 1: can and survive. They are possible if you, as the partner,
Speaker 1: have good self esteem, You have strong boundaries, resources in
Speaker 1: particularly that are valued by the narcissist patience and even
Speaker 1: tempered personality, and also a reason to stay with them
Speaker 1: throughout all these downfalls and faults. And I think over
Speaker 1: time this sort of self esteem that you need to have,
Speaker 1: it will acquire positive and good and strong reinforcement from
Speaker 1: other parts of your life like work and friends, in
Speaker 1: order to be maintained and to ensure that your relationship
Speaker 1: with that kind of energy sucking individual can continue and
Speaker 1: that reason to stay. I think people are attracted to
Speaker 1: different things and confidence, motivation, power, attention, all of which
Speaker 1: narcissistic partners can provide, and it can offer motivation to
Speaker 1: someone who might be with a narcissistic partner in the
Speaker 1: short term and the long term to stick around. But
Speaker 1: of course it can be volatile, and it's not like
Speaker 1: you can just tell that person to go to therapy
Speaker 1: because it's unlikely they will believe that anything is wrong,
Speaker 1: So it can become pretty one sided or dare we
Speaker 1: say toxic, although I'm not a big fan of that word,
Speaker 1: and I think a really good hallmark that I kind
Speaker 1: of saw in my own relationship for realizing that things
Speaker 1: aren't going right, that the relationship is one sided, that
Speaker 1: it isn't healthy, is that if you wouldn't feel comfortable
Speaker 1: telling your friends and family how someone treats you or
Speaker 1: the things that they say to you, you probably shouldn't
Speaker 1: be with them if their narcissistic traits are that pronounced.
Speaker 1: So if you wouldn't feel comfortable telling, you know, your
Speaker 1: best friend, oh, you know, I was really upset about this,
Speaker 1: and he just said like, oh, he related it back
Speaker 1: to himself and you know how hard his life is,
Speaker 1: or taught me I was overreacting, or that the reason
Speaker 1: I was sad was incorrect. If you wouldn't feel comfortable
Speaker 1: telling your friend that your emotions or your needs were neglected,
Speaker 1: then it's probably not something you should tolerate. And that's
Speaker 1: what I found where I was like, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: feel comfortable in telling my friends the extent to which
Speaker 1: some of these things have been said to me or
Speaker 1: how I'm being treated, because I know that they wouldn't
Speaker 1: like him anymore and I want them to like him.
Speaker 1: So it kind of became this like almost like a
Speaker 1: like a bit of a play, I don't know, like
Speaker 1: a like like living two lives like the one where
Speaker 1: I was with this person who I loved, but who
Speaker 1: had all these traits of like excessive need for attention,
Speaker 1: a sense of self entitlement, just an excessive need to
Speaker 1: be praised by others, to be liked by others. And
Speaker 1: then I had my own life where I was trying
Speaker 1: to just like do my own thing and be happy
Speaker 1: and healthy and myself. I think this is a good
Speaker 1: time to kind of jump into the clinical underpinnings of
Speaker 1: narcissism before we kind of talk more about how to
Speaker 1: set boundaries with these types of people. So narcissism has
Speaker 1: been around as long as you know humanity has been around, really,
Speaker 1: and the term itself comes from the story of Narcissus
Speaker 1: in Greek mythology. Essentially, if you haven't heard the story,
Speaker 1: but I'm pretty sure it's it's a common one, but
Speaker 1: I'll recap it and I'll bring some some classics into
Speaker 1: this psychology podcast. So Narcissis is the story of a
Speaker 1: Greek hunter who is the son of a river god Cephasis,
Speaker 1: and a nymph, and he's very beautiful blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: and he rejects this really beautiful nymph called Echo, and
Speaker 1: she walks around the forest, you know, in lamenting, mourning him.
Speaker 1: And that's where the word echo comes from, you know,
Speaker 1: until all that's heard of their voices is an echo.
Speaker 1: And as punishment for his rejection of her, the god
Speaker 1: of retribution and revenge, Nemesis, leads him to a pool
Speaker 1: or a pond where he is forced to see his reflection,
Speaker 1: and Nemesis causes him to fall in love with this reflection,
Speaker 1: and although he doesn't really realize in the beginning that
Speaker 1: it is just him in the face of the water,
Speaker 1: when he comes to understands it, he falls into a
Speaker 1: bear that his love cannot materialize, that he could never
Speaker 1: be in love with another person as much as he
Speaker 1: loves himself and he commits suicide. So hopefully we see
Speaker 1: the links between modern day clinical narcissism and this kind
Speaker 1: of story of self love and indulgence. But the formal
Speaker 1: diagnosis kind of began with Freud and different schools of psychology.
Speaker 1: They all kind of accept slightly different understandings of the
Speaker 1: pathology of this personality disorder and where it comes from,
Speaker 1: if treatment is possible, and the details of what it
Speaker 1: really means. Firstly, let's clear this up. Narcissism it is
Speaker 1: a disorder, as would as we would classify it like
Speaker 1: a disorder in terms that it causes impairment. It's not normal,
Speaker 1: it's abnormal. It's a personality disorder, and it kind of
Speaker 1: goes without saying I would hope that diagnosable narcissism is
Speaker 1: is far more complex and often more dangerous than just
Speaker 1: mere selfish or selfishness or vanity. So we've already discussed
Speaker 1: some of the characteristics criteria of having narcissistic personality. We've
Speaker 1: discussed that grandiose sense of self importance, the need for
Speaker 1: excessive admiration, entitlement, being interpersonally exploit alivilist, goes on If
Speaker 1: you want to read it, you can read it in
Speaker 1: the DSM. But there's another core element of narcissism that
Speaker 1: must be present for a disorder to be identified. So
Speaker 1: the essential features of any personality disorder are impairments in
Speaker 1: self and interpersonal functioning. This is why some people have
Speaker 1: argued that figures like Donald Trump, for example, can't be
Speaker 1: labeled narcissist, even though it seems quite possible because he
Speaker 1: doesn't seem overly impaired. You know, he became president. That
Speaker 1: doesn't show an inability to hold down a job or
Speaker 1: a lack of direction. And there are some key areas
Speaker 1: where impairment is more likely, for example, impairments in self functioning,
Speaker 1: especially in terms of self identity, and huge fluctuations in
Speaker 1: self esteem and self direction. A narcissist someone who is
Speaker 1: diagnosed as a narcissist may be unable to set goals
Speaker 1: that are realistic or separate their goals from the approval
Speaker 1: of others, and their personal standards are often unreasonably high
Speaker 1: in order to maintain the idea that they are exceptional,
Speaker 1: which can actually have the inverse effect of making them
Speaker 1: quite unimpressive because the fallout from when they can't meet
Speaker 1: excessive goals can be so dramatic. The other area where
Speaker 1: impairment is common as an interpersonal functioning, specifically in terms
Speaker 1: of intimacy. We've already talked about this, but relationships between
Speaker 1: a narcissist and a regular person can be largely superficial
Speaker 1: because they exist to serve their self esteem. Therefore, like
Speaker 1: a person who is narcissistic, might experience dysfunction in their
Speaker 1: inability to maintain a personal relationship or a long term friendship.
Speaker 1: And other areas of impairment also relate to their excessive
Speaker 1: attempts to attract and focus attention on themselves, and this
Speaker 1: can cause dysfunction. For example, in a classroom amongst peers
Speaker 1: or at work, you've got someone who always needs the
Speaker 1: attention on them. They're not going to be a very
Speaker 1: productive coworker. They're probably going to piss a lot of
Speaker 1: people off, come off as being a bit of a
Speaker 1: brown noser, and that can mean that it's harder for
Speaker 1: them to get ahead actually at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: or it's harder for them to be liked and to
Speaker 1: be accepted in a workplace. There is once more caveat
Speaker 1: that I found really interesting, So maybe I should explain this.
Speaker 1: I think I've kind of already done it. But essentially,
Speaker 1: if you're a psychologist or a psychiatrist and you have
Speaker 1: someone come in, firstly, it's highly unlikely that they're going
Speaker 1: to label themselves as a narcissist or seek help because
Speaker 1: of their express traits that may be due to narcissism.
Speaker 1: It's very unlikely that someone is going to come in
Speaker 1: and say, I'm a narcissist and I think this is
Speaker 1: a problem. They're probably going to be coming in for
Speaker 1: some other form of impairment, maybe family therapy. Maybe they've
Speaker 1: been recommended by their workplace or by their partner. But
Speaker 1: you talk to this person, you get a sense of
Speaker 1: their character, and if you have a suspicion that they
Speaker 1: may be narcissistic, you apply the criteria that is in
Speaker 1: the DSM, and depending on the disorder you're applying it to,
Speaker 1: a person needs to meet a certain number of set
Speaker 1: criteria to be diagnosed for narcissism. A person needs to
Speaker 1: exhibit only fifty five percent of the identified characteristics to
Speaker 1: be diagnosed with the personality disorder, and this is really
Speaker 1: low for depression or most common anxiety, disorders you have
Speaker 1: to meet I think like it might be like five
Speaker 1: out of seven criteria, and two of those criteria aren't optional,
Speaker 1: so you have to have had those in the past
Speaker 1: three to twelve months to be diagnosed. But there is
Speaker 1: one small part of the DSM when it comes to narcissism,
Speaker 1: which says the impairments in personality functioning and the individual's
Speaker 1: personality trade expression are not better understood as normative for
Speaker 1: the individual socio cultural environment. This is really interesting and
Speaker 1: I think really crucial because in some cultures where excessive
Speaker 1: self confidence, a lack of empathy, and interpersonal exploitation are
Speaker 1: coveted or celebrated, a person may not technically be deemed
Speaker 1: a narcissist. For example, in capitalist and competitive societies. An
Speaker 1: argument could be made that there are actually fewer rather
Speaker 1: than more narcissists, because the traits can be explained and
Speaker 1: are accepted within the socio cultural environment. Another thing about
Speaker 1: narcissism is that you can never self diagnose, so if
Speaker 1: you're worried that you might be a narcissist, you're probably
Speaker 1: not one. Narcissists generally lack the kind of empathetic self
Speaker 1: reflection that might make them wonder if they have a
Speaker 1: personality disorder, and this is why narcissism is so seldom
Speaker 1: treated and why it's really hard, maybe even impossible, to
Speaker 1: truly quantify how many people have the disorder. So let's
Speaker 1: kind of talk about treatment, because if it is considered
Speaker 1: a disorder and a disruption to our relationships and our functioning,
Speaker 1: we would hope that psychologists have some form of treatment plan.
Speaker 1: Just to put it simply, no, they don't. It's such
Speaker 1: an elusive disorder that there is no medication, no common
Speaker 1: form of CBT or therapy to treat narcissism. One of
Speaker 1: the most common measures that they do use is psychotherapy.
Speaker 1: So psychotherapy is a pretty i would say, common technique
Speaker 1: in psychology or if you go and see a counselor,
Speaker 1: it's basically like, by talking about your problems, you can
Speaker 1: kind of analyze where your behaviors come from unconsciously. So
Speaker 1: psychotherapy can help you, if you are a narcissist, kind
Speaker 1: of learn to relate better with others so your relationships
Speaker 1: are more intimate and rewarding. And it also helps you
Speaker 1: understand the causes of your emotions and what drives you
Speaker 1: to compete to distrust others and perhaps to have that
Speaker 1: weird roller coaster of self esteem and areas of change
Speaker 1: are directed at kind of helping you accept responsibility and
Speaker 1: learning to accept and maintain relationship in collaboration with people
Speaker 1: like your coworkers, or accept your actual competence and potentials
Speaker 1: so that you can tolerate criticisms or failures. It also
Speaker 1: aims to kind of increase a narcissists ability to regulate
Speaker 1: their emotions and their feelings because they can be so volatile,
Speaker 1: and to also understand and tolerate the impact of issues
Speaker 1: related to their self esteem. So this is kind of
Speaker 1: the basis of psychotherapy and treating a narcissist, but it's
Speaker 1: highly ineffective and has really high drop outrates. So not
Speaker 1: only is it hard to get someone who is a
Speaker 1: narcissist to go to therapy, but it's hard to get
Speaker 1: them to stick around. Sometimes it can even work against
Speaker 1: their best interests because so many of those traits that
Speaker 1: we might despise that we see in a narcissist can
Speaker 1: actually make people really successful in business and in their
Speaker 1: careers and negotiating in a lot of areas really, so
Speaker 1: it's still a really rich area of research if you
Speaker 1: feel like hanging around a bunch of narcissists and trying
Speaker 1: to teach them empathy, which is why narcissists are often
Speaker 1: used in a lot of studies around whether empathy is
Speaker 1: nature and nurture and how it can be built in people,
Speaker 1: specifically children. That's kind of a good segue into the
Speaker 1: nature the nurture debate around narcissism, which is such a
Speaker 1: huge topic when it comes to most personality disorders, but
Speaker 1: this one in particular. So the question everyone kind of
Speaker 1: asks is how does a person become a narcissist? Because
Speaker 1: we kind of want to avoid these people from showing up.
Speaker 1: And it's a hotly disputed issue in the world of psychiatry,
Speaker 1: and there's a wealth of theories, no kind of one
Speaker 1: size fits or answer. But the view of this very
Speaker 1: famous psychologist whose speciality is in this area is that
Speaker 1: it's probably about twenty five percent constitutional or duty or
Speaker 1: genetics or biological underpinnings, and seventy five percent is external.
Speaker 1: So a narcissist doesn't necessarily come from a dysfunctional family,
Speaker 1: but narcissism can occur because a parent or caretaker wasn't
Speaker 1: able to provide emotional attention, or it could be the
Speaker 1: flip side, a parent provided too much attention and the
Speaker 1: child never learned frustration tolerance. It really depends in the
Speaker 1: same situation can result in different outcomes for different people.
Speaker 1: So contributing environmental factors that a lot of researchers kind
Speaker 1: of found may include childhood abuse or neglect, excessive parental pampering,
Speaker 1: unrealistic expectations from parents, sexual promiscuity. But there's often a
Speaker 1: companies narcissism rather than causing it, and a lot of
Speaker 1: cultural influences. So so far it kind of does seem
Speaker 1: to be very environmental, but some neural models have suggested
Speaker 1: that it is an inherited condition and have this kind
Speaker 1: of explored the idea of a selfish gene that is
Speaker 1: activated by parenting style. So it appears to be more
Speaker 1: of a combination of genetics and environments. So if you
Speaker 1: know a narcissist, as much as their behavior may annoy
Speaker 1: you and hurt you, it's kind of necessary that we
Speaker 1: recognize that it's not really their fault they often have
Speaker 1: like's often something biologically that was there when they were
Speaker 1: born that was then triggered that's created this personality this identity,
Speaker 1: and it's pathological, it's chronic. They can't really do anything
Speaker 1: about it. And I know this account sounds kind of
Speaker 1: bizarre considering how much I've kind of shifted on people
Speaker 1: who have these traits and how terrible they are in relationships,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. But it's one of these
Speaker 1: confronting things that we often have to consider when looking
Speaker 1: at personality disorders in particular, is how much is it
Speaker 1: really that person's fault. It's part of their personality, yes,
Speaker 1: but they also have so little control in determining this
Speaker 1: outcome for themselves, and it does, at the end of
Speaker 1: the day, cause them impairment, it can hurt their relationships.
Speaker 1: It's not really a choice for them to have these traits,
Speaker 1: to be a narcissist, to step on people, to not
Speaker 1: have empathy, to be exploitative and need a lot of
Speaker 1: attention and self entitled. But the question is how far
Speaker 1: can we really stretch that logic, because then we can
Speaker 1: kind of extend this it's not your fault claim to
Speaker 1: any element of someone's personality and their flaws. Anyways, a
Speaker 1: little bit of a segue. I think it's just kind
Speaker 1: of interesting to think about that, think about where we
Speaker 1: place personality disorders in terms of our conceptions of right
Speaker 1: and wrong. Whether someone who is a narcissist or a
Speaker 1: psychopath or a sociopath can be seen as bad or
Speaker 1: worse than others, when really they didn't have any say
Speaker 1: in the kind of person they turned out to be,
Speaker 1: the way that we kind of didn't have any say,
Speaker 1: and the way we turned out to be, and perhaps
Speaker 1: our nicer temperaments or those that are more agreeable. Let's
Speaker 1: move away from the science for a bit and kind
Speaker 1: of conclude this episode by talking about how to cut
Speaker 1: ties with a narcissist, which can be especially hard considering
Speaker 1: how charismatic and powerful they can feel and the emotional
Speaker 1: vortex they create around them. So I read up on
Speaker 1: some tips about this. If you're maybe seeking advice, and
Speaker 1: I'm guessing if you have listened this far, you probably
Speaker 1: have some personal attachment or have identified someone in your
Speaker 1: life who may be narcissistic, and probably want to know
Speaker 1: how to deal with it, because oh my god, it
Speaker 1: can be fucking exhausting. This might be extreme, but it
Speaker 1: might be necessary, and it's a strategy that I saw
Speaker 1: all over the place that is recommended, and it's called
Speaker 1: the no contact rule, which you know you could probably
Speaker 1: apply to a lot of people who you might deem
Speaker 1: as a bad view or negative in your life. So
Speaker 1: the no contact rule is a method used in order
Speaker 1: to cut ties with a narcissist, a sociopath, or some
Speaker 1: other form of emotional manipulator. And as the name suggests,
Speaker 1: it's all about stopping every kind of communication with that
Speaker 1: person and cutting all ties with them so that you
Speaker 1: are unable to interact with them and they can't interact
Speaker 1: with you. For instance, not facing the narcissist under any circumstances,
Speaker 1: whether you're alone in public or surrounded by friends, not
Speaker 1: calling or texting or communicating with them, blocking their phone number,
Speaker 1: blocking their Instagram, blocking their Facebook, from any social media account.
Speaker 1: In fact, maybe even deactivating your own account as well,
Speaker 1: if you're worried that you might not be able to
Speaker 1: resist talking to them when you definitely need a bit
Speaker 1: of a break, And if it's a family member, this
Speaker 1: may be harder. We can't really expect that they will
Speaker 1: respect your decision because well, as we kind of talked
Speaker 1: about there, and capable of respecting boundaries or understanding emotional decisions.
Speaker 1: But I do think it's essential to stay firm and
Speaker 1: don't give in if you believe that nothing has changed,
Speaker 1: which it unlikely has, because it is a chronic condition
Speaker 1: and this doesn't just go away. This is who this
Speaker 1: person is. And I think surrounding yourself was like a
Speaker 1: good support network that's advice for anything, really, and writing
Speaker 1: a list of why you've made the decision and why
Speaker 1: you want to stick with it. And I think the
Speaker 1: opinion I always have when making these kind of hard
Speaker 1: to having these hard talks and making the decision to
Speaker 1: cut someone else off or end things with someone is
Speaker 1: you'll be so much happier you've made the decision now
Speaker 1: rather than in three months, because it's three more months
Speaker 1: of healing time for you. Anyhow, a bit of a
Speaker 1: weird episode, a bit of an emotional episode, a lot
Speaker 1: of baggage was unpacked and put away. Honestly, I'm like
Speaker 1: getting the feeling. I do just feel like this podcast
Speaker 1: is like a personal therapist or like source of Catharsis
Speaker 1: for me. So much of my personal life tends to
Speaker 1: filter in and maybe you've noticed that in my intros.
Speaker 1: You know what really determines these episodes is what I'm
Speaker 1: going through in my personal life rather and things I'm
Speaker 1: interested in this, I think as well, not so much
Speaker 1: like the things I think are like that the most relevant.
Speaker 1: Like I think, yeah, a narcissism is interesting, but there
Speaker 1: aren't that many narcissists. You might know one, but it's
Speaker 1: not as common as like a breakup or feeling sad
Speaker 1: or jealousy or things like that. But yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: really interesting topic I think to discuss, and I've mentioned
Speaker 1: it's just such a rich area of research. We really
Speaker 1: don't know much about this disorder. It's so elusive, it's
Speaker 1: so hard to find people to study it, so hard
Speaker 1: to get people to commit to a long term therapy
Speaker 1: and to see whether after a certain point there is
Speaker 1: like a cure or like a treatment for narcissism, whether
Speaker 1: it's like entirely bad. How to have a relationship with
Speaker 1: someone who's a narcissist, because you know, people do. It's
Speaker 1: not like the whole world of single people. It's just
Speaker 1: people who are narcissistic, like many of them will have
Speaker 1: relationships and they might even be functional. So how do
Speaker 1: we kind of compute that with our idea that they're
Speaker 1: like terrible and there are all these traits that we
Speaker 1: really dislike in others. So anyhow, a nice little conclusion
Speaker 1: to this episode. I hope you enjoyed it. Hope at
Speaker 1: least it was interesting that you learned something a new
Speaker 1: fact for the week. And yeah, thanks for listening all
Speaker 1: the way through if you have. If you really liked
Speaker 1: this episode, make sure you subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google,
Speaker 1: wherever you're listening right now, and follow us on Instagram.
Speaker 1: It's called twenty Psychology Podcast. You can see the awful
Speaker 1: Instagram reels I've been making as of recent and yeah,
Speaker 1: have a great week. I hope you enjoyed this episode,
Speaker 1: that you learned something, and we will see you next
Speaker 1: time for some more juicy discussions.