Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties,
Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big
Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they
Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Thank you everyone for joining us
Speaker 1: for another episode. This is one that I am incredibly
Speaker 1: excited about because we have a guest today, I guess,
Speaker 1: all the way from the US joining us to talk
Speaker 1: about financial anxiety and all things money in our twenties.
Speaker 1: So Hi, lindsay, Hi, I am so happy to be here.
Speaker 1: This is this is really exciting and I'm glad we
Speaker 1: worked around the time zone in day changes as well. Yeah. Absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was one thing when you reached out to me.
Speaker 1: I was like, this is something we're going to need
Speaker 1: to sort out. FA's that you're in the US. I'm
Speaker 1: in Australia, but you reached out to me, and I
Speaker 1: just thought you had some incredible ideas and you obviously
Speaker 1: do fantastic work. So do you want to give us
Speaker 1: a bit of an overview of who you are, what
Speaker 1: kind of work you do, where you're from. Yeah? Sure.
Speaker 1: So I am based in Michigan in the United States,
Speaker 1: and I'm a financial therapist. So my background is in
Speaker 1: clinical social work. So I have that psychology training, that
Speaker 1: sociology training that allows me to be a practicing therapist.
Speaker 1: I think in Australia you use the term counselor. So
Speaker 1: I was a practicing therapist for probably eight years or
Speaker 1: so when I really went all in on financial therapy.
Speaker 1: And financial therapy is exactly as it sounds. It's the
Speaker 1: study of the psychological side of money, So helping people
Speaker 1: with the emotional side of money. So much less how
Speaker 1: to make a budget and much more. What is making
Speaker 1: it hard to look at your numbers? What makes you
Speaker 1: feel uncomfortable when you have to negotiate a pay raise?
Speaker 1: Is it hard for you to talk to a partner
Speaker 1: or a roommate about your finances? So thinking more about
Speaker 1: that side of money. Yeah, so that's the short of it.
Speaker 1: I suppose that's the short answer. That is an incredible explanation.
Speaker 1: I will say, before you reached out to me to
Speaker 1: come onto the show, I had no idea what financial
Speaker 1: therapy it was. It's not a massive thing in Australia,
Speaker 1: but it's such a valuable kind of position to have
Speaker 1: in society. It's such a valuable job to be doing
Speaker 1: because I think as you will explain more. Especially in
Speaker 1: our twenties, as we begin to navigate our own money
Speaker 1: for the first time, it can be really, really stressful
Speaker 1: and normally it's a very I think we think about
Speaker 1: financial advisors who tell you how to really treat your money,
Speaker 1: where to store and how to invest, how to budget,
Speaker 1: but it doesn't really account for the emotional side of things.
Speaker 1: So with that in mind, how did you get into
Speaker 1: this type of work? What was the kind of calling
Speaker 1: to begin this type of work with clients? Well, I
Speaker 1: did not seek out to become a financial therapist. So,
Speaker 1: like you mentioned, financial therapy is a relatively new niche
Speaker 1: within the world of therapy. So back when I got
Speaker 1: my degree, my master's degree, it was twenty eleven and
Speaker 1: I got my first social worksjob out of grad school.
Speaker 1: I was really excited about it, working at a nonprofit
Speaker 1: and I got my first paycheck as in my opinion,
Speaker 1: like a grown up, and I was earning less than
Speaker 1: I was as a waitress. And it Yeah, you can't
Speaker 1: see because we're on a podcast, but JE just like
Speaker 1: jaw just dropped. Yeah. But here's the thing that's not uncommon.
Speaker 1: It's not uncommon to go into a helping field and
Speaker 1: not earn, in my opinion, a living wage. But I
Speaker 1: had so much guilt and anxiety. In the States, higher
Speaker 1: education university is expensive. I had my parents who were
Speaker 1: able to financially help me, and so I graduated without
Speaker 1: any debt. And so here I am with relative financial privilege,
Speaker 1: and I'm still struggling to make ends meet. And I
Speaker 1: was so embarrassed that I had wasted my privilege or
Speaker 1: wasted my resources. I couldn't believe that it was going
Speaker 1: to be a struggle for me to make rent or
Speaker 1: to get groceries, and there was so much shame around it.
Speaker 1: And so I did what a lot of people do,
Speaker 1: you know. I googled how to make a budget, how
Speaker 1: to make ends meet on not a high income. I
Speaker 1: checked out books from the library, and everybody at that
Speaker 1: point in time was telling me the same thing, basically,
Speaker 1: like it's your fault. You should really stop going out
Speaker 1: to eat, and I just it didn't feel right to me.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm not like going on shopping spreeze.
Speaker 1: I'm literally just trying to have my basic needs met,
Speaker 1: put gas in the car, feed myself, you know, pay
Speaker 1: my rent. And I just felt even worse. So the
Speaker 1: personal finance information was somewhat helpful, and then it helped
Speaker 1: me to structure a budget and be a little bit
Speaker 1: savvier about shopping, but it didn't really move the needle
Speaker 1: the way that we're kind of promised that it will.
Speaker 1: And it was a year into that job that I
Speaker 1: negotiated for a raise and was told not only would
Speaker 1: I not get a raise, but that I should be
Speaker 1: grateful that I had a job, and that I could
Speaker 1: feel in the pit of my stomach my heart just sank,
Speaker 1: my stomach sank. I felt so stuck here. You know,
Speaker 1: I've done everything I was supposed to. I even like
Speaker 1: mustered up the courage to negotiate a raise and was
Speaker 1: told no. Right then, I started looking for a new
Speaker 1: job that day, so fast forward, I got a better
Speaker 1: paying job. And what I noticed when I got a
Speaker 1: better paying job was that, yes, my finances improved, but
Speaker 1: what had happened when I was at my first job
Speaker 1: was not only was I stressed out about money, but
Speaker 1: as you can imagine studying what you do when talking
Speaker 1: about the psychology of money or I'm sorry, the psychology
Speaker 1: of your twenties, is that when we feel stressed in
Speaker 1: certain areas of our life, it impacts other areas of
Speaker 1: our life. So my previously well managed depression and anxiety
Speaker 1: had flared up. I developed insomnia, and I was getting
Speaker 1: colds and flues all the time, because you can imagine
Speaker 1: if you're not sleeping, your systems rundown. It's just this vicious,
Speaker 1: vicious cycle. So fast forward. I get this better paying job.
Speaker 1: I'm feeling better about making my ends meet, and I
Speaker 1: noticed that my depression and anxiety actually starts to dial down.
Speaker 1: I start to be old to sleep at night. Sudden,
Speaker 1: my immune system isn't so terrible. And it was just
Speaker 1: this moment emma of being like, you know, we can
Speaker 1: tell people all day, cut the lattes, cut the avocado toast,
Speaker 1: but we really need to be talking about the emotional
Speaker 1: consequences of under earning. And you know, for a handful
Speaker 1: of people, sure it might be miss or mismanagement in
Speaker 1: some way, but I really think a big part of
Speaker 1: it is that a lot of us aren't paid adequately
Speaker 1: for the work that we do, and we end up
Speaker 1: in fields helping healing professions where it's commonplace to not
Speaker 1: earn that much. So then let's see. Then I started
Speaker 1: studying financial social work and financial therapy, and eventually I
Speaker 1: carved out a niche for myself and went into really
Speaker 1: only serving clients who are struggling with the emotional side
Speaker 1: of money. And it has been incredibly fulfilling, incredibly validating.
Speaker 1: But no, it is never what I set out to
Speaker 1: do or had great plan of doing when I was
Speaker 1: in university. Yeah, well, that is actually incredible and I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people could probably relate to that
Speaker 1: experience you were talking about. After you get your first
Speaker 1: big girl job, you're making money and you almost expect
Speaker 1: to feel secure, but that just doesn't really happen. And
Speaker 1: especially now as you know, the cost of limiting becomes
Speaker 1: more expensive. Financially, we're seeing you know, inflation is on
Speaker 1: the rise. And yet still, like you said, a lot
Speaker 1: of I would say graduate jobs, the jobs that you
Speaker 1: get straight out of UNIQ pay absolutely nothing or very little,
Speaker 1: and especially if you're working in you know, caring roles,
Speaker 1: if you're a nurse, if you're a counselor, if you're
Speaker 1: an occupational therapist and entry level sych that is all
Speaker 1: stuff that is going to create a lot of worry
Speaker 1: within you. So in terms of the clients, that you
Speaker 1: say the majority of them kind of younger or older
Speaker 1: in their lives. I'll really be interested in the spectrum
Speaker 1: of the people that you say, Yeah, great, great question.
Speaker 1: So I'm a millennial, so I would say the bulk
Speaker 1: of my clients are also millennials, but I do have
Speaker 1: a handful that are older and a handful that are younger.
Speaker 1: So I would say most of my clients are like
Speaker 1: twenty eight to forty, but they range, you know, some
Speaker 1: are a bit older, some are a bit younger, but
Speaker 1: most of them are coming to me. They've had a
Speaker 1: couple of careers, career changes rather under their belt. They're
Speaker 1: starting to finally earn money, but there's still this fear.
Speaker 1: There's still this anxiety that's left over from their childhood
Speaker 1: or from the post UNI days where they weren't earning
Speaker 1: that much. And it's a lot of helping them to
Speaker 1: navigate where they are now versus where they were before.
Speaker 1: So I deal with a lot of financial anxiety and
Speaker 1: a lot of money shame in my practice. So this
Speaker 1: kind of gets to what I really want to pick
Speaker 1: your brain about today, which is financial anxiety first and foremost.
Speaker 1: But then how do we as individuals in our twenties.
Speaker 1: A lot of my audiences, obviously people in our twenties,
Speaker 1: how do you navigate difficult conversations and also your relationships?
Speaker 1: When you're talking about money, I think, yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: pretty big question and we have like an hour to
Speaker 1: answer it. But but I guess we'll start with financial anxiety.
Speaker 1: Can you give us the laydown? What does it feel like?
Speaker 1: What does it look like? Of course, financial anxiety is
Speaker 1: when you feel nervous, worried, or on edge when you
Speaker 1: are engaging with or thinking about your money, and that
Speaker 1: can show up almost identical in your body the way
Speaker 1: that traditional anxiety shows up. It can show up by
Speaker 1: knots in your stomach, your palm, sweating, dry mouth, clenching
Speaker 1: of your teeth, feeling jittery. Right can show up in
Speaker 1: those ways. It often shows up in racing worried thoughts.
Speaker 1: And the way that the behavior show up is that
Speaker 1: when a person who has financial anxiety looks at their
Speaker 1: paycheck or their retirement account or how much money is available,
Speaker 1: you know, somewhere in their life they feel those symptoms
Speaker 1: of anxiety. And when we feel symptoms of anxiety, we
Speaker 1: do everything in our power to not feel them. Right,
Speaker 1: Nobody likes that like churning in your stomach and the
Speaker 1: jitteriness and the craziness that comes along with anxiety. So
Speaker 1: there are two really quick ways to shut down this discomfort.
Speaker 1: One is through perfectionism and one is through procrastination. So
Speaker 1: perfectionism with financial anxiety looks like saying I'm going to
Speaker 1: research every single bank that I can find and put
Speaker 1: my money in the best one. Or I'm going to
Speaker 1: look at every single brunch menu in Melbourne and choose
Speaker 1: the one that has the cheapest option. Right. So these
Speaker 1: kinds of like overresearching, trying to do it the right
Speaker 1: way in order to tame their financial anxiety. Then, on
Speaker 1: the other hand, you have procrastination. If I don't want
Speaker 1: to feel that financial anxiety, I just won't deal with
Speaker 1: my money. I won't look at my bank account, I
Speaker 1: won't think about retirement, I won't even worry about telling
Speaker 1: my boss that they're paycheck late. Like, I just don't
Speaker 1: even have the capacity to look at it because it
Speaker 1: brings up so much anxiety. And something interesting about financial
Speaker 1: anxiety is that it's a myth that if you have
Speaker 1: more money or earn more money, you'll stop experiencing financial anxiety.
Speaker 1: So many of us experience it even as we continue
Speaker 1: to earn more, even as we continue to save more,
Speaker 1: because it's so emotional and it's less tied to logic.
Speaker 1: M that is incredibly interesting, like that, that procrastination and
Speaker 1: that perfectionism, And I think it would be it's very
Speaker 1: interesting in one way in particular, is that both of
Speaker 1: those things, wheth of those ways of dealing with money
Speaker 1: are quite socially accepted. I would say, yeah, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you know, I think I sometimes lead towards procrastination and
Speaker 1: now I'm thinking like, oh, it's just because I'm anxious
Speaker 1: about my income or am I just lady? And but
Speaker 1: also that perfectionism, you know, being really conscious about what's
Speaker 1: coming in and what's going out is something that people
Speaker 1: say as a sign of maturity and as a sign
Speaker 1: of being wise and of good practice. So I have
Speaker 1: a kind of maybe a more nuanced question for you,
Speaker 1: which is where do those two behave maybeas come from.
Speaker 1: Are there different people who might be leaning towards one
Speaker 1: over the other or what are some of the determinants
Speaker 1: of financial anxiety to begin with? Yeah, good questions, So
Speaker 1: they can be the same person in that you could
Speaker 1: be procrastinating by way of perfectionism, right, You could be
Speaker 1: putting off doing something related to your money because you
Speaker 1: want to do it just right, and if you can't
Speaker 1: do it just right, you don't do it at all.
Speaker 1: But it again goes back to this idea of we're
Speaker 1: not taught how to deal with anxiety, but we're certainly
Speaker 1: not taught how to deal with financers. So when you
Speaker 1: combine those two are there's just so few resources for us.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm so thankful for the explosion and information
Speaker 1: of psycho education on TikTok Instagram podcasts. I think it
Speaker 1: gives us so much more validity to say, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: not alone in feeling this way. But when it comes
Speaker 1: to financial anxiety, we just don't real really talk about it.
Speaker 1: So it can come from a bunch of different things,
Speaker 1: but really it is the physical sensation of racing thoughts
Speaker 1: and feeling uncomfortable. Is how is what makes us compensate
Speaker 1: with perfectionism or procrastination. And to your point earlier, these
Speaker 1: things are not necessarily frowned upon to research the best
Speaker 1: bank account. What's bad about that? But what's bad about
Speaker 1: it is that it can sometimes take precedence of actually
Speaker 1: figuring out what they want their relationship with money to
Speaker 1: look like. What would it be like to log into
Speaker 1: your bank account and not feel that wave of anxiety?
Speaker 1: What would it be like to go to brunch and
Speaker 1: not have to feel like you had to research everything
Speaker 1: you know for a week in advance before you went there.
Speaker 1: So really thinking about the amount of effort that it
Speaker 1: takes to try and avoid financial anxiety versus just saying
Speaker 1: I can tolerate a little bit of discomfort. I can
Speaker 1: learn to move through this. I can learn about money
Speaker 1: and also my relationship about money, so that if I
Speaker 1: experienced financial anxiety, hopefully it's either less intense or less
Speaker 1: frequent over time. M Yeah, that's really I think a
Speaker 1: great explanation. This is something when I first started talking
Speaker 1: talking to you, thinking about the work that you do
Speaker 1: that really interests me. And perhaps it is a bit
Speaker 1: more psychology, a bit Freudian, but can you kind of
Speaker 1: point to perhaps things that have happened as child or
Speaker 1: when you're younger that might manifest in financial anxiety. Do
Speaker 1: you tend to see that with your clients, Perhaps people
Speaker 1: who didn't have as much growing up really struggle with this,
Speaker 1: or those who had kind of inconsistent income streams, or
Speaker 1: their parents had inconsistent job or jobs or kind of
Speaker 1: financial avenues. Is that something you tend to say with
Speaker 1: your clients. Of course I do. So we cannot escape
Speaker 1: our childhoods. And just like we learn many things about
Speaker 1: the way in which we view the world from our childhood,
Speaker 1: we learn about money as children. And research has found
Speaker 1: that most of us have more or less made a
Speaker 1: decision about what money is or isn't, or what we're
Speaker 1: allowed to do or not do with it by the
Speaker 1: time we're eight years old. Yeah, so it's really interesting
Speaker 1: because many adults they don't want to talk to their
Speaker 1: kids about money. I can imagine many parents saying to
Speaker 1: their child who's five, six, seven, Hey, mom, how much
Speaker 1: money do you earn? Being met with a response of like,
Speaker 1: we don't talk about it. It's rude, that's impolite. So,
Speaker 1: of course, our childhood comes into play, and we learn
Speaker 1: about money, not just from our caregivers, but also from
Speaker 1: our friends, from where we attend school, from neighborhood we
Speaker 1: grow up in, from what spiritual or religious practices we have,
Speaker 1: and then also the different laws and policies that impact us.
Speaker 1: So it's not just the house we grew up in,
Speaker 1: but also where was that house located and what are
Speaker 1: all the layers outside of that house as well? And
Speaker 1: that of course can impact an adult's financial anxiety. If
Speaker 1: you imagine that the inner child is kind of driving
Speaker 1: financial decisions, it makes perfect sense why so many adults
Speaker 1: struggles so much or do things where they're like, I
Speaker 1: don't know why I keep doing this with my money? Right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that is a very very interesting and I love that
Speaker 1: you said, you know, my inner child is the one
Speaker 1: who is making financial decisions, because I think that really
Speaker 1: sticks with me and some of my own financial decisions.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, oh, you know, because I perhaps didn't
Speaker 1: feel this was available to me as a child, or
Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to make these purchases like now I'm going
Speaker 1: to buy this, and I think I guess, Like, another
Speaker 1: really big thing I want to talk to you about
Speaker 1: is where do you go from there? You know, you've
Speaker 1: had this experience, You've you know, created this pattern of
Speaker 1: behaviors around how you deal with your emotional reactions to money.
Speaker 1: And if I was a client right now, if my
Speaker 1: audience was a client, can you give us an overview
Speaker 1: of what advice you would give them. Yeah, I would
Speaker 1: love too. So let's imagine you're in your twenties and
Speaker 1: you grew up in a household where money was tight, right,
Speaker 1: you overheard your parents or your caregivers saying like, oh,
Speaker 1: we can't afford that, or all we need to call
Speaker 1: the utility company. I'm worried we're not going to be
Speaker 1: able to make bills this month, or being told Nope,
Speaker 1: you can't go on that field trip, or we're not
Speaker 1: we don't we can't afford to go on holiday. So
Speaker 1: those are a lot of the messages you hear in
Speaker 1: your household, and growing up you felt quite anxious and
Speaker 1: vis about money, and fast forward to being in your
Speaker 1: early twenties, the message you internalized from your parents was
Speaker 1: it's important to work really hard so that you don't
Speaker 1: have to struggle. So then that young adult may end
Speaker 1: up coping with their financial anxiety, that fear that they
Speaker 1: won't have enough by throwing themselves into workaholism, let's say,
Speaker 1: but working a corporate job and then having a side
Speaker 1: hustle and saying no to hanging out with friends so
Speaker 1: that they can save money. And so that might be
Speaker 1: how they deal with that, their financial anxiety shows up
Speaker 1: as perfectionism. So what advice I would give to that
Speaker 1: type of young adult is, how true is it that
Speaker 1: you are no longer able to meet your needs? How
Speaker 1: true is it that it's going to be difficult to
Speaker 1: pay the bills this month? And to get really clear
Speaker 1: on where you are now versus where you were as
Speaker 1: a child, and with a lot of compassion, a lot
Speaker 1: out of kindness, saying something like, you know, oh, it
Speaker 1: makes sense that it's it's so important for me to
Speaker 1: work hard and save a lot of money, and I'm
Speaker 1: no longer that six or seven year old child. I
Speaker 1: now have the capacity to have money set aside for
Speaker 1: a rainy day, and I have more than enough to
Speaker 1: be able to join my friends every other weekend to
Speaker 1: catch up over drinks. So that would be the way
Speaker 1: that we would deal with it is logic, and then
Speaker 1: also bridging that gap and tying back into that emotional
Speaker 1: reason why they might have ended up in perfectionism and
Speaker 1: overworking as a way to deal with their childhood. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and those are such croping mechanisms, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: when we distract ourselves from our emotional experiences, it's like
Speaker 1: I think it's very textbook croping mechanism, and I love
Speaker 1: the way that you've explained that about really consciously thinking
Speaker 1: about where that would have come from. I also think
Speaker 1: from an Australian perspective, for our listeners who are in Australia,
Speaker 1: it is a real taboo thing to discuss money unless
Speaker 1: you are very very close with other people. Discussions around
Speaker 1: money are not something that has frequently had. There's also,
Speaker 1: I think a massive financial gap in Australia between those
Speaker 1: who can afford to enjoy their lives from a financial
Speaker 1: standpoint and invest money in things that they want and
Speaker 1: long term financial decisions, and those who do not have
Speaker 1: that opportunity. So, thinking about a system wide level or
Speaker 1: about a societal level, what do you think needs to
Speaker 1: change in society so that we see less people coming
Speaker 1: into their twenties or late adulthood experiencing this really deep
Speaker 1: emotional reaction around their finances. I love this question. When
Speaker 1: the the first when the Great Recession happened back in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven eight, I was just finishing up
Speaker 1: university and graduating right into that, so I remember it
Speaker 1: very well. But the World Health Organization at that point
Speaker 1: in time, did a study of people's mental health and
Speaker 1: layered on how they were doing financially. And what that
Speaker 1: research found was that in countries where there were stronger
Speaker 1: social safety nets financial safety nets, people's mental health was
Speaker 1: less impacted. So I think of that data all the
Speaker 1: time when I'm thinking about how can we protect our
Speaker 1: young people from having to experience unnecessary financial anxiety. Right,
Speaker 1: we can help with the family dynamics, but you or
Speaker 1: I don't have the capacity to change the systems and
Speaker 1: laws outside of advocating for changes in systems and laws.
Speaker 1: So I think at baseline, I'm loving all of the
Speaker 1: worker unionization and organization that is happening globally, the demand
Speaker 1: for higher wages, for paid time off. In the US,
Speaker 1: we don't even have maternity and paternity leave like that goodness, Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah, we don't have it. You can in some jobs,
Speaker 1: you can have twelve weeks of your job protected but unpaid.
Speaker 1: So having things like maternity paternity leave, having things like childcare.
Speaker 1: In the US, there's almost no childcare until a child
Speaker 1: goes to school in kindergarten. Everything else is paid. But
Speaker 1: whether you're US based Australia based, you're listening to this
Speaker 1: in Europe, having a strong social safety net that can
Speaker 1: capture people so that they can have their basics needs
Speaker 1: met food, shelter, clothing, transportation, that makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1: And what we know is that when those needs are met,
Speaker 1: people report that their mood improves. So I think for
Speaker 1: young people in Australia or elsewhere to continually advocate to
Speaker 1: have those types of policies in place, not just for
Speaker 1: yourself and warier friends, but for the the global health
Speaker 1: and for your country's health. We know that it makes
Speaker 1: a huge difference mentally when those needs are met. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and fabulous, fabulous answer, and I agree with every single
Speaker 1: part of it. I think, speaking from my own experience
Speaker 1: in Australia, we're seeing a huge push towards expanding social
Speaker 1: social safety nets. I think we already have a pretty
Speaker 1: amazing system. We do get paid maternality leave, we have
Speaker 1: a pretty amazing social security system called send a Link.
Speaker 1: But there have been huge discussions around the fact that
Speaker 1: it is sometimes less than thirty forty dollars a day
Speaker 1: that people are receiving. And you can, I think that yourself,
Speaker 1: as a financial therapist can very clearly say that and
Speaker 1: I think most people in general, that's probably not a
Speaker 1: great place to build a solid emotional and psychological foundation
Speaker 1: from a place of such instability, right, exactly, exactly, And
Speaker 1: if we continue to put it on individuals to improve
Speaker 1: their financial health, we continue to make it harder for
Speaker 1: everybody to get better. Right. It has to be a both,
Speaker 1: and it has to be the systems are in place
Speaker 1: to help us succeed, and we have to have access
Speaker 1: to education so that we can make our own wise
Speaker 1: decisions about our finances. Yeah, I absolutely agree. So we've
Speaker 1: talked about a lot of things so far. We've talked
Speaker 1: about talked about in a child, so, we've talked about
Speaker 1: system wide approaches. We've talked about your individual kind of
Speaker 1: mental state in relation to your finances. But I kind
Speaker 1: of want to move on now to talking about how
Speaker 1: do we manage money in our relationships. I feel like
Speaker 1: it's the next unit of analysis for us to kind
Speaker 1: of dive into. So, Yeah, there are obviously some big
Speaker 1: financial changes that come with entering out twenties or adulthood.
Speaker 1: What do you kind of say when it comes to
Speaker 1: people navigating their finances when you know they into long
Speaker 1: term relationships or with friends, or even with family. So
Speaker 1: I think as you are in your twenties and you're
Speaker 1: going through that transition into your your career, there's often
Speaker 1: a shift from not making much money into making at
Speaker 1: least better money, and with that comes more opportunities to
Speaker 1: do things with your friends. But as we know, people
Speaker 1: in the same peer group don't all make the same income.
Speaker 1: They don't all live in the same apartment complex. Right,
Speaker 1: we have different income and we have different expenses. So
Speaker 1: let's talk about maybe friends, and then relationships, and then
Speaker 1: romantic relationships. So when it comes to friends, so many
Speaker 1: people fall into ghosting their friends or rather than saying, hey,
Speaker 1: I can't afford that, right, so many people are like,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to tell my friends that
Speaker 1: I can't go wine taster, I can't join them for
Speaker 1: that you know, mini holiday. Instead I'll just kind of
Speaker 1: say sure, sounds great and then not show or cancel
Speaker 1: on the same day. And over time, what happens if
Speaker 1: we don't tell our friends why we're not joining them,
Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense that they would stop extending that
Speaker 1: invitation versus having a relatively candid but you don't have
Speaker 1: to share everything conversation with them, So In this scenario,
Speaker 1: Let's say you're a person who's earning less than your
Speaker 1: friend group, or maybe has different financial priorities than your
Speaker 1: friend group, and they love hangouts that involve spending money,
Speaker 1: and at a point where you're like, I mean, I
Speaker 1: could do that once a month, twice a month, but
Speaker 1: it's not a priority for me, or I'm not able
Speaker 1: to do it every week. So rather than ghosting, which
Speaker 1: is easy in the short term but harder in the
Speaker 1: long term, I advise people to kind of of that
Speaker 1: friend group, find the one that you're the closest, to
Speaker 1: have a chat with them and just say, hey, this
Speaker 1: is a little bit uncomfortable, right, name the emotion, name
Speaker 1: the feeling, but I'm hot a place financially where I'd
Speaker 1: love to do the things that y'all are doing, but
Speaker 1: I'm not able to. Would it possible to do some
Speaker 1: low or no cost activities and then give them ideas
Speaker 1: of things that come to mind. We could go on
Speaker 1: a hike, we could do a pot luck at my house,
Speaker 1: we could rent watch a movie on Netflix. Like, given
Speaker 1: them some ideas of things that you could do, And
Speaker 1: what I find most of the time is that the
Speaker 1: person on the other end. The person receiving it is
Speaker 1: usually a thankful to know that they weren't being ghosted
Speaker 1: on for no reason, but be they're also so relieved
Speaker 1: to have another option of things to do. I think
Speaker 1: in the States in Australia, it's very common for like
Speaker 1: the go to activity to be going out to a pub.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so many other things that we can do,
Speaker 1: and we often forget that there are options aside from
Speaker 1: going to the bar or going out to eat, and
Speaker 1: so reminding your friends of that. So that's what I
Speaker 1: would say for friendships is is have a transparent conversation.
Speaker 1: You don't have to tell them how much money you're
Speaker 1: earning or how much your rent is. You can just say, look,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hang out with you, but y'all choose
Speaker 1: really expensive activities, or you know, my budget better accommodates
Speaker 1: activities like this. That is great language to use, like
Speaker 1: my budget better accommodates activities like this. Providing example, she
Speaker 1: is literally scripting your lives. Yeah, just copy and paste,
Speaker 1: put it into a text message. If phone calls freak
Speaker 1: you out, put it into a text. Then you can
Speaker 1: spend some time kind of revisiting it, sitting on it,
Speaker 1: and then and then just send it. You'll be You'll
Speaker 1: be pleasantly surprised. I think so many people are much
Speaker 1: more understanding than we imagine they will be. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: I think it's also a kind of a great litmus
Speaker 1: test for your quality of your friendships. You know, if
Speaker 1: your friendships, Yeah, if they're not willing to accommodate your
Speaker 1: individual financial situation or your financial priorities, perhaps it's good
Speaker 1: to see if they are willing to accommodate you as
Speaker 1: an entire individual. And all of that comes with I
Speaker 1: think another thing, and perhaps it's very similar, but I
Speaker 1: would really like to ask you for your advice or
Speaker 1: what you think about this is the tendency to feel
Speaker 1: pressure to spend more money than you perhaps have or
Speaker 1: want to spend. And what some of the consequences that
Speaker 1: might have for your well being but also for your
Speaker 1: financial financial state, and what do we do around that
Speaker 1: kind of conundrum? This is a good question. So this
Speaker 1: is a phenomenon called lifestyle inflation, and what that means
Speaker 1: is when you earn more money, you spend more money.
Speaker 1: So as we move from entry level careers to maybe
Speaker 1: mid level careers, so I think from like your early
Speaker 1: twenties to your mid re late twenties. So hopefully you're
Speaker 1: moving up in pay and you're able to earn more money,
Speaker 1: which we love. And oftentimes what happens is that then
Speaker 1: you start spending the way that other people in those
Speaker 1: positions do. Right, So you move out of your one
Speaker 1: bedroom flat and you move into a house, or you
Speaker 1: move from kind of the rural area into the city,
Speaker 1: and then you're surrounded by people who have slightly nicer
Speaker 1: cars and slightly nicer clothes, and their nails are done
Speaker 1: and their hair is done all the time, and they
Speaker 1: go and get monthly facials and massages, and before you
Speaker 1: know it, you find yourself doing those same types of
Speaker 1: things with my clients. I find it's less about my
Speaker 1: clients aren't the ones typically who are like very brand
Speaker 1: name heavy, but we're all influenced by our peers, so
Speaker 1: it could be that they start trying to match the
Speaker 1: lifestyle of people around them, spending more money on hiking gear,
Speaker 1: let's say, or camping gear or whatever it is. And
Speaker 1: so when you find yourself in a place where you're
Speaker 1: spending more than maybe you anticipated or that you want
Speaker 1: to be, I always invite people to come back to
Speaker 1: how much is this purchase in alignment with my values?
Speaker 1: Because research shows that when we spend in alignment with
Speaker 1: our values, we are much more likely to rank that
Speaker 1: purchase as making us happy. So, for example, I personally
Speaker 1: am not a camping fan. I grew up camping, but
Speaker 1: I don't like doing it now. So if my friends
Speaker 1: were to say, let's go camping and I had to
Speaker 1: buy a new sleeping bag, a new lantern, and all
Speaker 1: this stuff, I would probably be pretty cranky about that
Speaker 1: purchase because it's not in alignment with my values. Now. However,
Speaker 1: if they were like, we're going camping, but you can
Speaker 1: just come along for the day and go hiking with us,
Speaker 1: I might be thrilled to buy a new pair of
Speaker 1: hiking boots and get to sleep at an Airbnb or
Speaker 1: at a hotel. Right, So that would be more in
Speaker 1: alignment with what matters to me. Is I still the
Speaker 1: distend quality time with my friends. I purchase a pair
Speaker 1: of boots that I will be able to use on this,
Speaker 1: you know, excursion and other ones, and I'm not doing
Speaker 1: something that I don't love. So I encourage people to
Speaker 1: do a loving audit of what they're spending on. If
Speaker 1: they're spending a lot on beauty or clothing or cars,
Speaker 1: ask yourself, how important are these things to me? For
Speaker 1: some people, they get so much joy out of the
Speaker 1: creativity of trying new makeup trends and trying new hairstyles. Great,
Speaker 1: go for it so long as you can afford it.
Speaker 1: But maybe for that person, they don't really care about
Speaker 1: going out to eat. It's not their thing. They're not
Speaker 1: a foodie, So maybe then they can dial back they're
Speaker 1: spending in that area. So it's it's less about cutting
Speaker 1: everything and more about cutting the things that don't really
Speaker 1: matter to you. You have really shine a lot on
Speaker 1: my own financial decisions. I'm so happy to do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think we have a word for this sinistry,
Speaker 1: very similar to lifestyle inflation, called lifestyle creep. And I
Speaker 1: was having a discussion with my friend about this the
Speaker 1: other day when you know, I didn't think about it much,
Speaker 1: and then your explanation, I've been like, oh, like dang,
Speaker 1: that is spot on. And as someone who is in
Speaker 1: the early twenties, you know, I've just started making serious money.
Speaker 1: As of a lot of my friends, it is so
Speaker 1: many I have money available to me, so it's so
Speaker 1: much easier to be like, Oh, if I had had
Speaker 1: this money when I was younger, I would have spent
Speaker 1: it on this or that and buying things that make
Speaker 1: me very instantly happy, but perhaps don't align to my
Speaker 1: values as you said, or what was the term you used.
Speaker 1: Was it alignment to your alignment to your values? Yeah,
Speaker 1: and alignment to how much I'm probably going to use
Speaker 1: it like I bought. Yeah, I'm not even going to
Speaker 1: shame myself anymore because I feel like you would probably
Speaker 1: tell me off for it, but I would do it
Speaker 1: but gently. Yeah, of course you would get at your job.
Speaker 1: So exactly. But I'm sure there are many people listening
Speaker 1: who are like, oh, Like that explains me to a
Speaker 1: tea lifestyle creep is so easy to get into, and
Speaker 1: especially when we think about social and group psychology and
Speaker 1: wanting to feel like we belong and a great way
Speaker 1: to do that is to present the same kind of
Speaker 1: indicators or facade or material items as other individuals within
Speaker 1: the group that we want to approval from. So I
Speaker 1: think it's definitely something to think about. Now. I want
Speaker 1: to pick your brain on relationships, particularly romantic relationships. So anecdotally,
Speaker 1: a lot of my friends have found incredible life partners,
Speaker 1: people that they love and great people. And I think
Speaker 1: that's something that happens a lot in our twenties and
Speaker 1: in Australia there is a tendency to move in or
Speaker 1: perhaps this is also an America, but to move in
Speaker 1: before you're engaged, before you're married, and sometimes to move
Speaker 1: in together but have split finances. So I feel like
Speaker 1: for those who are perhaps ready to make this decision
Speaker 1: already have made this decision and an out trying to
Speaker 1: find their footing, can you talk us through some of
Speaker 1: the problems or issues they might face, some of the
Speaker 1: things to account for. Of course, so that's what I did.
Speaker 1: I cohabitated with my partner for seven years. We actually
Speaker 1: bought a home together before we were engaged, and globally
Speaker 1: that is becoming more common for partners to move in together,
Speaker 1: share expenses, or do a their's mine and hours before
Speaker 1: getting married. We'd go off on that for a whole
Speaker 1: other thing. But I would say, first of all, like
Speaker 1: good for the two of you for acknowledging what works
Speaker 1: for you, and a great time to talk about money
Speaker 1: is of course, in my opinion, anytime, but also when
Speaker 1: we're going through a life change. So as you're getting
Speaker 1: ready to move in together, if you're deciding you want
Speaker 1: to get engaged, if you already lived together but you're
Speaker 1: looking to move those are perfect times to bring up
Speaker 1: the money conversation. And what we know is that couples
Speaker 1: who talk about money report being happier than those that don't,
Speaker 1: which is different than the convert, which is couples who
Speaker 1: fight about money are more likely to report separation or divorce.
Speaker 1: So it is a myth that talking about money will
Speaker 1: somehow break you apart. But we have to be conscious
Speaker 1: about how we are actually bringing out it up because
Speaker 1: to your point, it's taboo. It's something we don't talk
Speaker 1: about in particularly in both of our cultures. There's a
Speaker 1: lot of romanticism that floats around there about romantic relationships, like,
Speaker 1: you know, we just love each other and everything else
Speaker 1: just takes care of itself. But you know, love is
Speaker 1: a great part of a partnership and other things have
Speaker 1: to be in alignment as well. So again kind of
Speaker 1: leading with the this is awkward, this is uncomfortable, and
Speaker 1: giving your partner heads up that you want to talk
Speaker 1: about money. So it would literally be hey, vibe, I
Speaker 1: know we're getting ready to think about moving apartments. I
Speaker 1: would love if we could sit down later this weekend
Speaker 1: and talk about what our budget is and then just
Speaker 1: see if we need to change anything about how we're
Speaker 1: splitting expenses. So what you're doing is you're coming to
Speaker 1: them at a neutral time. You're not coming at them
Speaker 1: when you're mad. You're not like, oh my gosh, you
Speaker 1: blew our grocery money again, what's wrong with you? You're
Speaker 1: the worst. But you're not in that heated space. You're neutral,
Speaker 1: So you're coming at them from neutrality. You're also sharing
Speaker 1: how it's going to benefit the two of you. I
Speaker 1: want to make sure we can talk about our budget.
Speaker 1: I want to make sure we are on the same
Speaker 1: page about where we want to move. And then also
Speaker 1: you're giving them a heads up so that they can
Speaker 1: prepare to have that conversation, because so often we are
Speaker 1: caught totally off guard when somebody wants to have a
Speaker 1: hard conversation like that, or at least uncomfortable. Maybe hard's
Speaker 1: the wrong word, but giving somebody a heads up be helpful,
Speaker 1: and then to actually have that conversation. I recommend sitting
Speaker 1: down without distractions, or as few distractions as possible, having
Speaker 1: one or two things per kind of conversation that you're
Speaker 1: going to talk about. So in this example, let's talk
Speaker 1: about our apartment budget and make sure we're still okay
Speaker 1: splitting expenses the way we have been. And then once
Speaker 1: you answer those two things, you kind of shut it down.
Speaker 1: Then you open the door to have a money conversation
Speaker 1: later on, because what we want to do is build
Speaker 1: in what I call money dates, and that's where you're
Speaker 1: talking about money regularly, but it's not all the time.
Speaker 1: You can kind of table those money conversations for once
Speaker 1: a week or twice a month, and then you can
Speaker 1: also when you're having that money discussion, also know your
Speaker 1: partner's boundaries and your boundaries, right. I know, for me,
Speaker 1: if I suddenly get really quiet in a discussion, that's
Speaker 1: a cute that I'm probably being triggered a bit or
Speaker 1: I'm being pushed too far, and that's probably a time
Speaker 1: for me to say, you know what, I can feel
Speaker 1: my tension rising. Would it be okay if I stepped
Speaker 1: away for a few minutes and then came back. And
Speaker 1: then we also have to know when it's time to
Speaker 1: just shut down the conversation altogether. And try later. So
Speaker 1: it could be I'm totally shut down, I take my
Speaker 1: five minute breather, I come back, and I'm immediately emotionally
Speaker 1: dysregulated again. That would be a cue for me to say, Bay,
Speaker 1: let's actually finish this conversation tomorrow. I'm kind of maxed out.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that we're talking about, but I can't. I
Speaker 1: can't keep going right now. So having some parameters around
Speaker 1: that conversation, acknowledging that it's awkward not catching your partner
Speaker 1: off guard, or all tips that I would advise anyone,
Speaker 1: particularly folks in their twenties. M that is fabulous advice.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna listen back to this if I reached that stage,
Speaker 1: or I'm thinking about money with my partner or someone else.
Speaker 1: So can I just propose one more anecdote to you,
Speaker 1: more hypothetical, So say you and your partner really disagree
Speaker 1: about money, or perhaps one of you is more generous
Speaker 1: with the income. I've definitely found myself in this position before,
Speaker 1: where I was contributing to more items that we would
Speaker 1: both share, or two trips, or to petrol in the car,
Speaker 1: things like that. I think that's obviously a place of
Speaker 1: great attention, and perhaps there's greater room for conflict in
Speaker 1: that scenario. What kind of ways would you approach approach
Speaker 1: this situation? So, for sure I would have the conversation
Speaker 1: about who is in charge of or who is responsible
Speaker 1: for each of these different financial expenses. So for many
Speaker 1: couples who live together and aren't married, or who have
Speaker 1: chosen to not merge everything, I love doing a theirs
Speaker 1: mine in ours bank account system. That's where one person
Speaker 1: has their own money, the other person as their own money,
Speaker 1: and they contribute to a shared account that is only
Speaker 1: for joint expenses, so rent, petrol, groceries, things like that.
Speaker 1: Then whatever is in each of their individual accounts they
Speaker 1: can spend or save as they like. Now, when it
Speaker 1: comes to one off things like holiday, I think that's
Speaker 1: when having another conversation can be helpful, Like, Hey, we
Speaker 1: have so and so's wedding in a few months, I
Speaker 1: think we should probably set aside some money for it.
Speaker 1: How are we going to do that? So having those
Speaker 1: conversations ahead of time can be hugely, hugely helpful. And
Speaker 1: then if you do end up doing that type of
Speaker 1: accounting system, let's say, if your partner spends their money
Speaker 1: not your joint money in a way that you want
Speaker 1: to roll your eyes at. You have to be comfortable
Speaker 1: enough to let it go. So if they want to
Speaker 1: go spend their money on I don't know, tuning up
Speaker 1: their car or buying a bunch of sneakers, so long
Speaker 1: as your shared expenses are met, have to be really
Speaker 1: comfortable saying that's their money that they're allowed to spend
Speaker 1: how they want. So you know, you know yourself, you
Speaker 1: know your relationship well, and see if that would work
Speaker 1: for you. But that's the method I like, And the
Speaker 1: asterisk I will add there is that for that shared account.
Speaker 1: Depending on the regulations or depending on your comfort level,
Speaker 1: you might not be comfortable enough to actually open a
Speaker 1: joint checking account together. So then what you would do
Speaker 1: is kind of tally up your expenses and have one person,
Speaker 1: let's say rent was a thousand dollars, one person would
Speaker 1: pay rent and the other person would pay for groceries, utilities,
Speaker 1: and phones, and nat adds up to a thousand dollars.
Speaker 1: That's another way to do it to where you're contributing
Speaker 1: somewhat equally to the household expenses. Yeah, and I think
Speaker 1: with everything you've just said, it's about being comfortable enough
Speaker 1: to approach your partner with these discussions, and I think
Speaker 1: a sense of vulnerability and honesty with them. I love
Speaker 1: the advice that you've given throughout this throughout these kind
Speaker 1: of discussions has been named the feeling and be really
Speaker 1: honest about it. And I think when you're able to
Speaker 1: do that, and you're able to be like this is uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: you almost create kind of like an equal footing and
Speaker 1: equal level playing field for you and the other person. Okay,
Speaker 1: I want to just ask you find any final pieces
Speaker 1: of advice. I also want to talk about your book,
Speaker 1: which I can see you guys can't see it, but
Speaker 1: I can see is right over your shoulder. I think
Speaker 1: it's an amazing resource. So I'll give you some space
Speaker 1: now to if you've got any final thoughts, final pieces
Speaker 1: of advice, and then please plug away, because I want
Speaker 1: people to to know your content and to know who
Speaker 1: you are. I think it's amazing. Thank you. Yes. One
Speaker 1: final thing that I am to almost all of my
Speaker 1: conversations is that no matter where you are in your
Speaker 1: journey with money, plan to make mistakes rather than planning
Speaker 1: on learning and executing things perfectly. Know that you will
Speaker 1: make more money mistakes, and that's perfectly fine, just as
Speaker 1: we expect to make mistakes and other areas of our life.
Speaker 1: We're going to burn dinner, We're gonna lose directions to
Speaker 1: a restaurant we're supposed to go to. You're going to
Speaker 1: make mistakes. This is a part of the journey. And
Speaker 1: rather than beating yourself up or being hard on yourself,
Speaker 1: I invite the listeners to just extend themselves some compassion
Speaker 1: that this stuff is hard and awkward and complicated, and
Speaker 1: it will take more than one podcast episode as great
Speaker 1: as this one is, more than one podcast episode, more
Speaker 1: than one book, more than one YouTube video to start
Speaker 1: cultivating a healthy relationship with money. So give yourself lots
Speaker 1: of permission to make mistakes. Know that that's totally normal
Speaker 1: and I plan to make many more in my life. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: very great advice. And then can you also give us
Speaker 1: a book but also of your services if people are interested,
Speaker 1: because I feel like if you are someone who is
Speaker 1: listening to this episode, you're probably are struggling with financial
Speaker 1: anxiety or how to navigate finances in relationships a little bit.
Speaker 1: So can you talk more about what you offer and
Speaker 1: how you go about it, of course. So my business
Speaker 1: is called Mind Money Balance. You can find me in
Speaker 1: all the social places at that handle. My podcast is
Speaker 1: of the same name, my websites of the same name,
Speaker 1: and I help people at the intersection of money and
Speaker 1: mental health. And I do that through coaching, therapy and
Speaker 1: speaking engagements. So I invite you, if you enjoy this conversation,
Speaker 1: to follow along and see if there's any other content
Speaker 1: that resonates. And then my book is called The Financial
Speaker 1: Anxiety Solution. It is a workbook. It's highly interactive. It
Speaker 1: is really focused on some of the things that we
Speaker 1: covered today. How do you think about money, how do
Speaker 1: you feel about money? Or are your financial behaviors how
Speaker 1: much are they helping you or harming you? And it
Speaker 1: gives you a lot of tools to help you dial
Speaker 1: down that anxiety, normalize it and help you learn to
Speaker 1: recognize your own patterns in terms of your relationship with money.
Speaker 1: And you can get that book. I invite you to
Speaker 1: have your independent bookseller order it for you, but of
Speaker 1: course you can get on Amazon. But I just like
Speaker 1: keeping money in the local bookstores as much as possible. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you're in Australia. I also think that that's something
Speaker 1: you should do. Go to your local bookstore. They don't
Speaker 1: get enough support. Well, thank you so much. We have
Speaker 1: been speaking for almost an hour. It's just flown by,
Speaker 1: and I honestly think that I kind of got a
Speaker 1: personal therapy session out of this my pleasure. I truly
Speaker 1: love talking about this topic and I no matter what
Speaker 1: stage of life you're in, this topic is important and
Speaker 1: I'm so honored that you said yes to having me
Speaker 1: on and I hope all the listeners took little bits
Speaker 1: and pieces away from them. Yeah, I absolutely think that
Speaker 1: they did. This has been one of my favorite episodes,
Speaker 1: So a big thank you to Lindsay and Matt. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and if you do want to know more about this topic,
Speaker 1: please follow her. Her instagram is incredible and provides just
Speaker 1: really amazing bite sized pieces of advice that you can
Speaker 1: filter into your own lifestyle and as you say fit.
Speaker 1: As always, thank you so much for tuning into this episode,
Speaker 1: this special guest episode. I really loved having Lindsay on board,
Speaker 1: and as always, if you enjoyed the show. If you
Speaker 1: enjoyed the episode today, please give a five star rating
Speaker 1: on Spotify podcasts, Apple Podcasts, wherever you are listening right now.
Speaker 1: It really helps the podcast to grow and to reach
Speaker 1: more people. Additionally, if you're really enjoying the intent, we
Speaker 1: now have a paid subscriber version where you get bonus
Speaker 1: content every month. If you're interested, please go to the
Speaker 1: link in the podcast description and thank you again for listening.
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'll see you next week, when we will
Speaker 1: be discussing more about the psychology of our twenties.