Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stephane
Speaker 1: Never Told You production of iHeart Radio, and welcome to
Speaker 1: another edition of them in this book club. Ya, it's
Speaker 1: our first for the year, right, it is. It is.
Speaker 1: We're starting out very strong in our pick. I think personally,
Speaker 1: what do you think, Itty? I agree? I think this
Speaker 1: was a This was a great pick and it was
Speaker 1: like just so educational and it it really devetailed well
Speaker 1: with the things we had been talking about the end.
Speaker 1: So it's true. It's true. Yeah, as in fact last year,
Speaker 1: as in about a month ago, someone to use this
Speaker 1: term on me, not too long ago, and it made
Speaker 1: me go, what, why would you say it that way?
Speaker 1: That's all misleading. Anyway, We did an amazing interview with
Speaker 1: god to Junior Fox where we talked about her documentary
Speaker 1: With Out a Whisper, which followed the holding a Shawnee
Speaker 1: Clan uh and their history and their role in the
Speaker 1: Suffragette movement. Um Dr Sally Roche Wagner has been researching
Speaker 1: and documenting the history for years now and was a
Speaker 1: part of that conversation with the Mohawk Clan mother at
Speaker 1: the time. If you haven't seen that documentary. Please go
Speaker 1: check it out. It's an amazing educational opportunity as well
Speaker 1: as if your teachers or someone who wants to educate
Speaker 1: younger generations, this is a must watch. Um and. Dr
Speaker 1: Wagner was one of the first to be awarded where
Speaker 1: the doctorate for her work in women's studies, and was
Speaker 1: also one of the first to found a college level
Speaker 1: women's study program in the United States, so she is significant.
Speaker 1: With fifty one years of teaching a women's studies, Dr
Speaker 1: Wagner has become one of the most active and overall
Speaker 1: authority of the history of women's studies in this country,
Speaker 1: so that's something to know. Um. And she has published
Speaker 1: numerous books on the subject of women's studies and the
Speaker 1: history of the suffragette movement, including the book we Are
Speaker 1: Featuring today a which is titled Sisters in Spirit Holding
Speaker 1: a Shawnee Iroquois. We're gonna put that in parentheses, uh,
Speaker 1: influence on early American Feminists, which published in two thousand one.
Speaker 1: So yes, this is kind of an older book, um,
Speaker 1: but still significant to read. She also recently wrote The
Speaker 1: Women's Suffrage Movement, which looks at the Suffragette movement through
Speaker 1: a new intersectional lens, which we love and I'm sure
Speaker 1: we'll tackle that soon enough as well. And here's a
Speaker 1: bit of information written in a Sisters in Spirit of
Speaker 1: some of Dr Wagner's work. Quote. The theme of for
Speaker 1: our work has been telling the untold stories. The exhibit
Speaker 1: in her monograph of the same name, She who Holds
Speaker 1: the Sky, Matilda Jocelyn Gage reveals the stuffer just written
Speaker 1: out of history because of her stay against the religious
Speaker 1: right one years ago, while her traveling exhibit in Women's
Speaker 1: Rights National Historic Part Curriculum, Sisters in Spirit documents the
Speaker 1: influence of the Hoddeda Shawnee women on early women's right activists.
Speaker 1: So there you go. And again we talked about this
Speaker 1: and the significance, but we're gonna talk a little more
Speaker 1: in depth with this book. And like many of the
Speaker 1: books we have covered, uh, for this segment, this is
Speaker 1: very quote heavy because of course they do they explaining
Speaker 1: in the book, so we're just going to talk about it. Um.
Speaker 1: So we wanted to take some time to talk of
Speaker 1: the history and the themes with a discussion around the
Speaker 1: quotes from the book. So instead of doing like we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about the book and then do themes. We're
Speaker 1: gonna do themes and quotes all at the same time
Speaker 1: to cover the entirety of the book, which is very
Speaker 1: short by the way, so again this is like an
Speaker 1: hour and a half two hour read. Yeah, m Let's
Speaker 1: begin with the introduction, which was written by Jeane Shenandoah
Speaker 1: of the Onondaga Nation. In the intro, we are asked
Speaker 1: to open our minds and our eyes to learn things
Speaker 1: we may have quote never thought about. Shenandoah writes, we
Speaker 1: hope that the messages inside will help to open your
Speaker 1: eyes and ears to things you may have never realized
Speaker 1: or even thought about, since this type of information has
Speaker 1: been withheld in the education of all the people, and
Speaker 1: goes on to talk about the history of the hot
Speaker 1: and shining quote. We huddn't Shannie live within the traditional
Speaker 1: structure that we've always had, the structure of equality among
Speaker 1: all members of our community. Women, men, and children have
Speaker 1: equal spiritual, human and political rights. We have equal opportunity
Speaker 1: to voice opinions or objections to any situation within our community,
Speaker 1: and we know that our voice will be heard. And
Speaker 1: with that, she continues, read this book and learn from it.
Speaker 1: It helps you to realize what women have gone through
Speaker 1: to make a stand for their rightful equal place on earth. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's pretty good start. I think it's a great start.
Speaker 1: So the book begins with a question that should be
Speaker 1: asked for all of our historical understanding, quote, who gets
Speaker 1: to be part of history? Um, we have to acknowledge
Speaker 1: our lack of knowledge and lack of education when it
Speaker 1: comes to the complete history, and be wary of who
Speaker 1: is teaching it. Dr Dr Wagner rights, Uh, we Euro Americans,
Speaker 1: you white people annie to see you are filled with
Speaker 1: the poison of misinformation. Great gaps of knowledge accompany the lies.
Speaker 1: Oh missions teach us equally and more viously the misinformation.
Speaker 1: The lesson of exclusion is clear. Groups of people included
Speaker 1: in the interpretation of history are respected, while excluded groups
Speaker 1: are outsiders and can easily be ignored. If our teachers
Speaker 1: do not tell us about a group of people, we
Speaker 1: assume they are unimportant. And oh my god, that's so
Speaker 1: right on. And we've talked about this with the complete
Speaker 1: lack of transparency when it comes to education. I think
Speaker 1: it's a huge subject. Now. I can't believe you wrote
Speaker 1: this in two thousand one and it hits right on
Speaker 1: the head today. Yeah, because it's such a huge topic
Speaker 1: of debate um right now, and it's one of those
Speaker 1: political issues that people use to get um their constituents
Speaker 1: fired up. Uh, and it's very misunderstood. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: just it's what we learned is so much like white centric,
Speaker 1: very male centric. It's not until you get out of college,
Speaker 1: and even then that you you kind of are like, oh,
Speaker 1: these things that would have been taught from the beginning
Speaker 1: right there, right, and and the fact and we know
Speaker 1: she has been a Dr Wagner has been working on
Speaker 1: this for a long time. This is a twenty two
Speaker 1: year old book, um, and I'm just learning about it
Speaker 1: this past year to this year, Like, that's horrific to me.
Speaker 1: I cannot believe it took us this long. And then
Speaker 1: we've talked about on the show the constant erasure of
Speaker 1: marginalized people in history and why it's important that we
Speaker 1: make sure we keep talking about it and that other
Speaker 1: people are educated. So it just it's one of those
Speaker 1: things that it hasn't changed centuries upon centuries, but we
Speaker 1: do have people like Dr Wagner who still talk about it,
Speaker 1: who still pushed it forward because she's been talking about
Speaker 1: it for the past twenty three years, if not longer,
Speaker 1: So that's amazing to see. Um. And yeah, we have
Speaker 1: to acknowledge the reason for the lack of truth and
Speaker 1: information has to do with racism. She writes, the message
Speaker 1: of a mission is an educational foundation of racism. Through
Speaker 1: the silence in our education, many of us have learned
Speaker 1: not to listen to the histories of people of color,
Speaker 1: women and other excluded groups. And yeah, like she just
Speaker 1: puts up lately, this is racist. This is an absolute
Speaker 1: racist take on history because it's been whitewashed. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I bet for a lot of people who as
Speaker 1: always we hope you go read these books after we
Speaker 1: see can we talk about them? But I bet for
Speaker 1: a lot of you this will be new. A lot
Speaker 1: of it was new for us. We're like kind of
Speaker 1: in this field, so right, right, And the fact that
Speaker 1: I have not heard this being addressed, I don't think
Speaker 1: I've ever heard this being addressed except for small groups
Speaker 1: of people, I feel like, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And even deeper into the telling of the history, we
Speaker 1: have to acknowledge the failability of the teachers, but also
Speaker 1: the fluidity of history. Dr Wagner rights, There's nothing inherent
Speaker 1: or inevitable about history created by people. It is shaped
Speaker 1: by the same socio political economic forces that determine the
Speaker 1: telling of it. History changes like institutions when people demand change.
Speaker 1: As excluded groups see conclusion and institutions. They also celebrate
Speaker 1: their histories, demanding to be remembered. United States history has
Speaker 1: gone through phases in the last fifty years, reflecting cultural
Speaker 1: and social shifts towards greater inclusion and diversity. Right. I
Speaker 1: hope we come back to that because I feel like
Speaker 1: this is so cyclical um and where we are today,
Speaker 1: and of course we know the backtracking that I guess
Speaker 1: the political shift more so that has happened recently, including
Speaker 1: attacking Native and Indigenous laws that were placed to protect
Speaker 1: but also to acknowledge the wrongs that have happened to
Speaker 1: them by the colony zation that continues to happen. Let's
Speaker 1: be honest, and I hope that this continues bigger and bigger,
Speaker 1: because we are going to have this conversation and we're
Speaker 1: not gonna stop having this conversation. We don't know what's
Speaker 1: happening in schools. We don't know what's happening around us
Speaker 1: right now all the time. Um, we hear all the
Speaker 1: bad news. I hear all the bad news, but even
Speaker 1: talking to some teachers are like, we haven't had a
Speaker 1: pushback like that yet. But doesn't mean it's not coming
Speaker 1: around necessarily or that it's not happening elsewhere. So I'm
Speaker 1: hoping that it is just more of a shift of
Speaker 1: the the people who are just talking the loudest, and
Speaker 1: that this information is going to get out more and
Speaker 1: more because I think more especially the younger generations are wonderful.
Speaker 1: They're seeking for more information like this. Yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: I do think that there's that going on. There is
Speaker 1: there is this push that Wagner described. Dr Wagner described, Um,
Speaker 1: and I think also just I hope m books like
Speaker 1: this and even podcasts like this, perhaps through a small
Speaker 1: your level, not to shoot her own horn, but like
Speaker 1: that kind of information is becoming more and more available.
Speaker 1: Whether or not you find it, that's an issue, but
Speaker 1: it is out there. I feel like there's more things
Speaker 1: out there for people to find. You just have to
Speaker 1: know how to look for it, and that is, yes,
Speaker 1: the problem. Um. Dr Wagner continues. This phase of history
Speaker 1: also conveyed the message that the only people that matter
Speaker 1: are wealthy white men, and that common people have no
Speaker 1: influence over the course of events. Right. And in this example,
Speaker 1: she talks about the story of Christopher Columbus and and
Speaker 1: the way it was framed and what we see today.
Speaker 1: And I love that. I love that we have come
Speaker 1: to a cultural shift of changing that to Indigenous People's Day,
Speaker 1: like awareness Day, I'm like, yeah, Okay, we're getting there.
Speaker 1: We're getting there, at least we're getting there with terms.
Speaker 1: We're getting there with understanding, but there's obviously so much
Speaker 1: that we're lacking, right, And we even talked about that
Speaker 1: with things like our our episode we did on Wikipedia
Speaker 1: or those check ins with like, there's still so much
Speaker 1: further to go in terms of who we're talking about
Speaker 1: and when we're recording and it still is this a
Speaker 1: lot kind of wealthy white man. It is getting better,
Speaker 1: but it's like slow going. Um. But as she wrote,
Speaker 1: history changes, and that is things in part to those
Speaker 1: who saw the injustices of these whitewashed context She writes, quote,
Speaker 1: recognition of historical injustices opened the way to see the
Speaker 1: triumphs of those who resisted overcame It nearly overwhelming odds
Speaker 1: and survived. Most recently, we have begun to explore the
Speaker 1: unexpected and largely unknown stories of friendships established during colonization
Speaker 1: and coexistence and of the way groups influenced each other.
Speaker 1: All right, And I love that beginning because that's kind
Speaker 1: of the thing we talked about with Fox about her documentary,
Speaker 1: was that, more so than just the history, we were
Speaker 1: seeing the friendship between Dr Wagner and the clan mother
Speaker 1: and how they've been friends for years, but just loving
Speaker 1: their relationship even and that was one of the bigger
Speaker 1: things to her that she saw following them around and
Speaker 1: the love between them and the work they've done throughout
Speaker 1: the years, like this book and the and the Ford. Um.
Speaker 1: I really found it fascinating. And also, yeah, the fact
Speaker 1: that they have survived, and when we talked with Box
Speaker 1: about even the native language and that she didn't know
Speaker 1: it because yes, it had been literally beaten out of
Speaker 1: them and during the boarding school era and and now
Speaker 1: has come back and it's being restored and it's a
Speaker 1: beautiful thing because they know that it has to survive,
Speaker 1: and it's an amazing thing to witness today. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and things like just the cultural practices and the
Speaker 1: stories and passing these things down from generation to generation.
Speaker 1: We really can't recommend that documentary enough. It was so
Speaker 1: enlightening and it's beautifully shot. But yeah, I love the
Speaker 1: friendship between between them two and then also seeing these
Speaker 1: multiple generations of women right talk about these issues, right. Uh.
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner asks us the readers to seriously think about
Speaker 1: the radicalism of the suffraget movement, that we celebrate the
Speaker 1: nine at Amendment today and acknowledge the works are the
Speaker 1: more well known activists like Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton,
Speaker 1: which by the way, I believed Dr Wagner had a
Speaker 1: hand and bringing her history back for a while. It
Speaker 1: was missing until not too long ago, So that's pretty interesting. Um,
Speaker 1: we don't always look deep at the fights they had
Speaker 1: to endure. And for those who are willing to call
Speaker 1: out oppressive systems, that even today is still a controversial topic.
Speaker 1: And within these conversations we have to look at ourselves
Speaker 1: and ask would we have done the same thing or
Speaker 1: as Dr Wagener puss it uh just be quote safe, um,
Speaker 1: And yeah, we're gonna talk a little more bit about that,
Speaker 1: and and just so you know, we're not gonna go
Speaker 1: deep into some of the analogies because I have a
Speaker 1: hard time with some of these analogies. And when it
Speaker 1: comes to white women movements, uh to enslavement, and there
Speaker 1: is some conversations about servitude back then in the limited
Speaker 1: freedoms and all of that. So there is some conversations
Speaker 1: about that in the book. We're not going to harp
Speaker 1: too deeply in it, but just know that it is
Speaker 1: there in that in the awareness that women have no
Speaker 1: rights at that point in time, especially the beginning of
Speaker 1: the movement in the mid nineteenth century going forward, so
Speaker 1: there was a lot of time about emancipation and conversation.
Speaker 1: So this was something that was in their thought processes
Speaker 1: and I think it's important to know. But we're not
Speaker 1: gonna go deep into that part um. But a part
Speaker 1: of Dr Wagner's work includes the history of many women
Speaker 1: as part of the suffragette movement, as well as preserving
Speaker 1: the works of the women, especially those who are lesser known.
Speaker 1: Within the book, she talks about the works and interactions
Speaker 1: of Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Matilda Justin gauge Um Engage was
Speaker 1: with the suffrage Triumvirate alongside Stanton and Anthony. So they
Speaker 1: were the first three essentially leaders, and they met up
Speaker 1: the leadership positions of the National Women's Suffrage Association. Gauge
Speaker 1: and Stanton concentrated on more radical levels of feminism at
Speaker 1: the time. Dr Wagner writes a quote made by Gauge, quote,
Speaker 1: the laws civil and social, each equally burdensome our church origin.
Speaker 1: And not until the church is destroyed will women be freed,
Speaker 1: which even said today would cause a lot of controversy.
Speaker 1: We know this as a black people saying it today
Speaker 1: is causing a lot of controversy. Stanton seemed to have agreed,
Speaker 1: as Dr Wagner quotes from one of Stanton's letters. As
Speaker 1: I have passed from the political to the religious phase
Speaker 1: of this question, I now see more clearly than ever
Speaker 1: that the arch enemy to women's freedom skulk behind the
Speaker 1: altar to rouse women to a sense of their degradation
Speaker 1: under the canon, law and church discipline is the work
Speaker 1: that interests me most into which I prepared to devote
Speaker 1: the sunset of my life. Right eighteen fifties, eighteen seventies,
Speaker 1: they were talking about this. This was not heard of.
Speaker 1: We know that there's a d conversation about religiousness and
Speaker 1: like religious morality. I did not know that they were
Speaker 1: so against the church. I think I knew very little
Speaker 1: on that level of like they just wanted to move forward, um,
Speaker 1: and it was right, but they were supremely against the
Speaker 1: church as it stands. And that kind of comes into
Speaker 1: the conversation about white nationalism today and how it relates together.
Speaker 1: And it's pretty amazing to see that we're still here. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a big focus of the book, honestly, um. And
Speaker 1: that surprised me as well how much they wrote about religion,
Speaker 1: and specifically here, like you know, white European religion, that
Speaker 1: how it was oppressing women, and that's something you and
Speaker 1: I were working on a long series about. It's getting longer.
Speaker 1: It's getting longer, longer. So yeah, I mean it's still
Speaker 1: a huge, huge topic today. But I was surprised at
Speaker 1: how much of this book. I was like, oh, whoa.
Speaker 1: They did not hold back, and they weren't the only ones.
Speaker 1: They definitely were the quieter voices, it seems because again,
Speaker 1: like Dr Wagner makes mentioned that Susan B. Anthony was
Speaker 1: the perfect example of the quiet, demure moral representation of
Speaker 1: the Suffraget movement. And not necessarily standing or gage who
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, the church, the church is destroying us
Speaker 1: because y'all want to put us under this awful idea
Speaker 1: that Eve has uh cursed us all, which they talk
Speaker 1: about too. But it's an interesting take it. I'll love it.
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie sorry. And with that, they wrote
Speaker 1: in the History of Women's suffrage quote, society is based
Speaker 1: on this fourfold bondage of women, Church, state, capital, and society,
Speaker 1: making liberty and equality for her antagonistic to every organized institution.
Speaker 1: So those are the four institutions and kind of break
Speaker 1: it down. We're just gonna kind of summarize that with
Speaker 1: state being under government control with no rights and limited liberty.
Speaker 1: Capital is the idea of marriage, which equates to unpaid
Speaker 1: labor and servitude and often leads to the women having
Speaker 1: no rights or no say within the household or the land,
Speaker 1: no right to property. Is either society, which is an
Speaker 1: inability to earn wages or have a career, which takes
Speaker 1: away from their having independence, liberty, and even equality, um
Speaker 1: any of them. Like, we wouldn't break that down a
Speaker 1: little further because she does talk about these four subjects
Speaker 1: throughout and of course we just mentioned the church, so
Speaker 1: we don't have to explain that. I don't think. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would also add in here I've long wanted to
Speaker 1: do this episode. I think it would be very complicated.
Speaker 1: Perhaps we'll talk about it in the religious history one.
Speaker 1: But there's a long history of wanting to restrict women's
Speaker 1: rights because many women are people with uters is can
Speaker 1: have children and children at this time, we're used for labor,
Speaker 1: and so it was a type of capital and they
Speaker 1: wanted to men in the church. The church didn't want
Speaker 1: to pay for children burn out of web. Look that
Speaker 1: came up to is like women who had children, people
Speaker 1: who had children having no rights to the child right
Speaker 1: and yeah, that was that they were property on the
Speaker 1: same level as women were property right. Very interesting, Um,
Speaker 1: so where did these ideas these institutions come from? And
Speaker 1: on the interview, I admitted to fox Uh that this
Speaker 1: was one of those moments that felt obvious that the
Speaker 1: suffraget movement wasn't something born from the Eurocentric ideal that
Speaker 1: the beginning of this country was based on the oppression
Speaker 1: of the European British standards. So it kind of was like, oh, yeah, duh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it made yeah of course, of course, we just don't
Speaker 1: think that that far behind Dr Wagner. She writes about
Speaker 1: her own misconceptions. I did not set out to look
Speaker 1: for this connection, this link between early suffragists and native people's.
Speaker 1: In truth, if someone has suggested it to me when
Speaker 1: I taught my first women studies class in nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 1: I would have scoffed at yet another more quote romantic
Speaker 1: Indian story. I had a single question, basic to feminist history.
Speaker 1: How did the radical suffragists come to their vision, A
Speaker 1: vision not of band aid reform, but of a reconstituted
Speaker 1: world completely transformed H And I thought that was something significant.
Speaker 1: She admits it, and then she goes on to talk
Speaker 1: about the fact that she never once doubted that it
Speaker 1: came from the European women, even though when we look
Speaker 1: at the historical context, European women didn't have freedoms like that, right, right,
Speaker 1: And I think that goes to show how deeply ingrained
Speaker 1: our whitewash history is. Is that I mean, she admitted it.
Speaker 1: I can admit it. I didn't really think about it
Speaker 1: when when I learned it, I was like, oh, of course, um,
Speaker 1: but that's how deep this is. And That's how damaging
Speaker 1: that kind of a rature is because we could have
Speaker 1: I mean, it's heartbreaking in so many ways, but we
Speaker 1: could have learned so much more we had the history
Speaker 1: available to us instead of they taught us how to
Speaker 1: plant corn. Yes, the native people taught us how to
Speaker 1: plant corn, and I mean white people. Sorry. And this
Speaker 1: is something that she discovers and we'll talk about in
Speaker 1: a few minutes. Yes, but first, Dr Wagner begins by
Speaker 1: breaking down the language of the colonizers versus the indigenous Uh,
Speaker 1: the different types of misinformation presented in the usage of
Speaker 1: the term indians. For example, um is an example of
Speaker 1: the horror and dangers of colonizers giving names instead of
Speaker 1: the community letting us know the name that they go by.
Speaker 1: The different tribal names given we're also given by colonizers,
Speaker 1: as well as the term tribes. Dr Wagner writes, not
Speaker 1: recognizing the terrible appropriation of self identity inflicted in a
Speaker 1: false other imposed name. They have that quote political correctness
Speaker 1: that requires them to change their language. Yeah, why is
Speaker 1: it still relatable? I know, I mean, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: Like when we talk about a lot of these conversations
Speaker 1: and issues yeah, it's still going ongoing today, even to
Speaker 1: the point that finally the people have stopped saying the
Speaker 1: term Indian, which basically cringed to say, I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: lie uh to Native or Indigenous or First People's which
Speaker 1: is appropriate, which makes complete sense. And in the fact
Speaker 1: that this was not the name they were getting, like
Speaker 1: they go by. This has always been an insulting term
Speaker 1: for them because it was giving by colonizers as a
Speaker 1: way of kind of ownership of that community. And it's
Speaker 1: it's like, oh God, yeah, and I love that sentence
Speaker 1: about her saying the terrible appropriation of self identity inflicted. Uh,
Speaker 1: like that whole sentences that we talked about appropriation. And
Speaker 1: this was two thousand one and it existed dead, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't this big conversation it is today that Yeah,
Speaker 1: it absolutely was. This is absolutely some of the evidence
Speaker 1: of appropriation committed by colonizers, and which is the example
Speaker 1: of why this is so damaging and an important then
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner writes, self naming is, of course a critical
Speaker 1: part of the process of creating a diverse culture. One rule,
Speaker 1: when in doubt about what to call a person or group,
Speaker 1: don't tie up their time and energy and asking read
Speaker 1: what they have to say, then sift carefully and slowly
Speaker 1: through the multiple answers, knowing that this is not a
Speaker 1: trivial matter. So we change by evolving and respecting the
Speaker 1: culture that has been around before the existence of this country. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: ask questions, ask good questions. I wonder who wrote the
Speaker 1: history always, but I do think that's part of it.
Speaker 1: Is like a lot of people, and we've discussed this again,
Speaker 1: going back to that Wikipedia episode, is if it's not
Speaker 1: easily found, I think a lot of people just don't
Speaker 1: put in the time and we really need to. We
Speaker 1: have to write and yeah, like she says, don't tie
Speaker 1: up their time and energy, which is exactly that conversation is.
Speaker 1: Let we're asking for something of value from them because
Speaker 1: we're too lazy to look at it ourselves when the
Speaker 1: work has already been done. Yes, Yes, Also an ongoing
Speaker 1: conversation here, Dr Wagner emphasizes the importance of recognizing the
Speaker 1: community as they call themselves, and here Dr Wagner is
Speaker 1: specifically talking about the six nations of the Hodda Nishani
Speaker 1: are formally named Iroquois, which includes the Onondagas, the Cayugas,
Speaker 1: the Senecas, the Mohawks, and the Oneidas. Later they would
Speaker 1: add the nation of tolcar Auras and Hotda. Nashani translates
Speaker 1: to quote the people of the long House from the
Speaker 1: circumstance that they likened their political structure of a long
Speaker 1: tenement or dwelling. Yeah, and I'll also add, if you
Speaker 1: get the book, and I'll hope you get the book
Speaker 1: and you're able to read it, they do have a
Speaker 1: lot of amazing illustrations to go with these, and there
Speaker 1: is a great illustration like of this dwelling. So it's
Speaker 1: really interesting to see. And these are people who would
Speaker 1: heavinly influence the radical movement of women's rights and the
Speaker 1: beginning of feminist ideology. According to Dr Wagner's research, the
Speaker 1: women's rights movement really began in the territory of Hodashani
Speaker 1: in eighteen forty eat uh. As we said earlier, she
Speaker 1: found these answers to who was the influence in the
Speaker 1: women's rights movement. Um, here's another quote from the book.
Speaker 1: It dawned on me I had been skimming over the
Speaker 1: source of their vision without even noticing it. My own
Speaker 1: stunningly deep seated presumption of white supremacy had kept me
Speaker 1: from recognizing what these protect typical feminists kept insisting in
Speaker 1: their writings. They believed women's liberation was possible because they
Speaker 1: knew liberated women, women who possessed rights beyond their wildest imaginations.
Speaker 1: The hold of a Shawnee women um and she later continues,
Speaker 1: like most historians do, I had assumed that the story
Speaker 1: of feminism began with the discovery of America by white men,
Speaker 1: or the political revolutions staged by the colonists. That there's
Speaker 1: no seed of feminism already in American soil when the
Speaker 1: first white settlers arrived. Without realizing it, I had assumed
Speaker 1: that white people had imported the germ of the idea
Speaker 1: of women's rights, and that was the end of the story, right.
Speaker 1: I think the two parts that we wanted to talk about, like,
Speaker 1: that is white supremacy that level, whether or not you
Speaker 1: want to admit it. And because people don't like that
Speaker 1: term white supremacy because it's too heavily laid with you
Speaker 1: might be racist, um, but that is as an underlying
Speaker 1: racism that you don't know about. That even like for
Speaker 1: me as well, obviously I'm still as an Asian woman
Speaker 1: hanging onto that white supremacy and assuming the same thing
Speaker 1: that it was it began with white women point blank.
Speaker 1: M hmm. Yeah. And there's so much offensive like ideas
Speaker 1: underpending that in terminology and depending that that the book
Speaker 1: does go into. But yeah, it's pretty it's pretty distressing
Speaker 1: and disturbing because yeah, if you you don't know because
Speaker 1: you were raised with this particular version of history that
Speaker 1: we're all kind of like growing up in um, then
Speaker 1: you don't know to ask. And so it's so good
Speaker 1: that the work like this exists and people are asking
Speaker 1: now because it is just the so much of what
Speaker 1: the Hodd and Shannie Like, there was one chart, you
Speaker 1: know the chart I'm talking about where it showed that
Speaker 1: like how their society is versus like we're gonna talk
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, I'm telling you, like, it was such
Speaker 1: a beautiful thing that even today I was looking at
Speaker 1: it like what right, I can barely imagine this. And
Speaker 1: to be honest, even to this day, they still have
Speaker 1: more rights and more equality than we do as a
Speaker 1: country today. Yeah. Let the culture before, since they've been existing,
Speaker 1: has more rights than us today. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, And
Speaker 1: it's just again so frustrating that so many of us
Speaker 1: do think of when we think of the feminist movement,
Speaker 1: we think of these white women, and there were so
Speaker 1: many women of color behind it that get erased. But
Speaker 1: then to have them get the credit flight being the
Speaker 1: start of it when they were learning from all of
Speaker 1: the incigenous women, like, that's where they got these ideas
Speaker 1: um and she was able to research to the truth.
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the movement, she writes, they stayed
Speaker 1: and engage, looked elsewhere for their vision of the regenerated world,
Speaker 1: and they found it in Upstate New York. They became
Speaker 1: students of the hoddaa Shawnee and found a cosmological worldview
Speaker 1: they believed to be superior to the patriarchal, white male
Speaker 1: dominated view prevalent in their own nation. So Lovely Gauge
Speaker 1: was an avid researcher of the Hoddaashani culture and the
Speaker 1: role of the women in their system, which she termed
Speaker 1: matriarch kate I think that's correct or mother rule system.
Speaker 1: As In fact, Gauge wrote articles about the Hodda Shanie
Speaker 1: and all so started a book. Here's another quote from
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner, the editor of The New York Evening post
Speaker 1: said that Gauge expressed, quote an exhibition of ardent devotion
Speaker 1: to the cause of women's rights, which is very proper
Speaker 1: in the president of the Suffrage Association and gives prominence
Speaker 1: to the fact that in the old days, on the
Speaker 1: glory of the famous Confederation was at its height, the
Speaker 1: power and importance of women were recognized by the allied tribes. Right.
Speaker 1: I found it interesting because we're gonna go deeper into
Speaker 1: the fact that these women who we're trying to advocate
Speaker 1: so hard for the women in the United States at
Speaker 1: that point in time, in the in the white territories,
Speaker 1: I guess we're trying so hard to bring that cultural
Speaker 1: aspect to it, but had to admit they loved and
Speaker 1: rather would have stayed with that culture the indigenous community
Speaker 1: because they were they were even given the same rights
Speaker 1: as HoDaa Shawnee women. They are who were have been
Speaker 1: born into that since but they were accepted of it.
Speaker 1: And because of this they came back with allies who
Speaker 1: helped to be like here, here you go, we got
Speaker 1: your back. This is what you can do, this is
Speaker 1: what we're gonna tell you about. We'll tell you about
Speaker 1: our system, we'll show it to you and show you
Speaker 1: how wonderful it worked. Yeah, that was a lot of
Speaker 1: examples of that throughout and also a lot of like
Speaker 1: discussion hit home again of how they felt safe like
Speaker 1: walking at night alone Native territories, but didn't they never had,
Speaker 1: and then the back they were surprised when they felt
Speaker 1: that safe. They're like, yeah, why wouldn't you write um
Speaker 1: And as both Stanton and Gauge continue to push forward
Speaker 1: in the women's rights movement, they noted quote the society
Speaker 1: in which they lived was based on the impression of
Speaker 1: women hot into Shawnee. Society, on the other hand, was
Speaker 1: organized to maintain a balance of the quality between women
Speaker 1: and men, and they went as far as creating a list, Yes,
Speaker 1: this is what we were talking about to show those differences,
Speaker 1: which they break down as social, econom make, spiritual and political.
Speaker 1: Here are some of the examples, um hoddena Shaani. Violence
Speaker 1: against women not a part of culture and dealt with
Speaker 1: seriously when occurs. Each woman controls your own personal property.
Speaker 1: Sky woman the spiritual being catalyst for the world. We
Speaker 1: see women hold key political offices e g. Clan mothers
Speaker 1: and for Euro American women, husbands have legal right and
Speaker 1: religious responsibility to physically discipline wives, no rights to her
Speaker 1: own property, body or children, no female in the godhead,
Speaker 1: and women are excluded from political office. Also, they can't
Speaker 1: vote while holding a Shawnee are the ones to choose
Speaker 1: their chief right, And there's a lot more to that list.
Speaker 1: We just wanted to give you a little bit of
Speaker 1: an example. But it's again shocking and again more rights
Speaker 1: than what we have today, even like we've gotten more
Speaker 1: rights since then, yeah, but still less rights than what
Speaker 1: the hold of a Shawnee women has. Yeah, I thought, yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought. I thought it was interesting they included the
Speaker 1: bit about like the odd head. There's no because, as
Speaker 1: you said earlier, that idea of Eve ruining everything in
Speaker 1: kind of white Christian religion. Um, so it's like, not
Speaker 1: only do we not have like a god, we have
Speaker 1: like the woman ruined everything. Right, they are meant to
Speaker 1: be punished because they are the ones they are the
Speaker 1: fault for sin periods. Yes and man right noxious? Uh.
Speaker 1: And also many of these women who studied the hold
Speaker 1: of a Shawnee were adopted into the different indigenous communities
Speaker 1: during their time with them, allowing them to practice leadership
Speaker 1: and autonomy under the hood. Of a Shawnee lifestyle, so
Speaker 1: they gotta taste. They got that taste. Um. And those
Speaker 1: who did study the lifestyle of this indigenous group all
Speaker 1: acknowledged the overall equality and freedom within the community, even
Speaker 1: beyond the freedom of the women. The system that was
Speaker 1: used by the hold of a shanity brought about peace
Speaker 1: within the community and a camaraderie. Um. And yeah, like
Speaker 1: you said, there was safety and there was a lot
Speaker 1: of measure to make sure everybody felt equal in a
Speaker 1: part of the system. So it wasn't just you have
Speaker 1: this role. It's a minute role. Get out of the
Speaker 1: way or you'll be beaten. Um. And if you could
Speaker 1: step out of line whatever, it was like, No, we
Speaker 1: all are equal to each other. One doesn't outdo the other.
Speaker 1: We balanced each other, right, Um. And that whole idea too,
Speaker 1: is so stark of like, you know, hurting a woman
Speaker 1: with the hold nutshine people punishing seriously, very very rare.
Speaker 1: It's like codified into law that men could do that
Speaker 1: to their wives if they like straight or did something
Speaker 1: quote heavy quotes wrong, right, And it's biblically allowed, not
Speaker 1: been allowed to biblically forced. They was like, you have
Speaker 1: to do this right, because otherwives the sin will get
Speaker 1: hold of her. It was their responsibility to keep their
Speaker 1: wives in check. Yeah, it's really real. Must up, must up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And in their culture of the Hut and Shinny had
Speaker 1: freedoms that seem radical even today to some extent, women
Speaker 1: choosing their leaders and being able to fire him if
Speaker 1: his actions violate. There's three qualifications. Quote they cannot commit murder,
Speaker 1: cannot commit theft, and cannot abuse a woman. Huh, that's right,
Speaker 1: they're right there. And on top of that, divorce was
Speaker 1: not looked down on, which Stanton was a proponent of.
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner writes she found a model in the Hood
Speaker 1: and a Shawnee attitudes towards divorce, where quote a misbehaving
Speaker 1: Iroquois husband quote might at any time be ordered to
Speaker 1: pick up his blanket and budge get out. Yeah, pick
Speaker 1: up his blanket, budge, But I love it, get out.
Speaker 1: That's great. And reviews on divorce were in part due
Speaker 1: to the level of the structure of marriage, with marital
Speaker 1: rape and abuse being legal, as well as women's complete
Speaker 1: loss of autonomy to the authority of their husband. Stanton
Speaker 1: looked towards the practices of the Hoddan Shawnee. She is
Speaker 1: quoted in the book as envying how native women quote
Speaker 1: ruled the house. Dr Wagner continued later in the book
Speaker 1: of the seriousness for men of the Honda Shawnee misbehaving, uh,
Speaker 1: including rape, which researchers noted was non existence. She writes
Speaker 1: a tesca or chief Elias Johnson wrote, the absence of
Speaker 1: rape and quote sexual violation of women was virtually unknown
Speaker 1: among native men, right, which is amazing And I think
Speaker 1: I know Fox talked about that during our interview as well,
Speaker 1: that that was not introduced until Christian missionaries came through
Speaker 1: and tried to quote unquote civilize right and the indigenous community,
Speaker 1: which damn you. And as for domestic violence, if one
Speaker 1: of the indigenous men were known to be abusive, he
Speaker 1: was quote led to the red hot statue of a
Speaker 1: female and requested to treat it as he had done
Speaker 1: his wife. He commenced beating it and the sparks flew out,
Speaker 1: and we're continually burning him. So that was his attrition essentially,
Speaker 1: just like, Okay, we got this burning hot statue, good
Speaker 1: for it, and which is what just caused him to burn.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I like it let's do it. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: obviously there was very limited numbers of some domestic violence
Speaker 1: at that point in time. And on top of the
Speaker 1: different responsibilities, the hot and a Shawnee women were farmers
Speaker 1: and the authority of the land. Um, here's another quote
Speaker 1: for the book, satisfying and sacred. Women's work harmoniously complimented
Speaker 1: the hunting diplomatic duties of men. Both were equally valued
Speaker 1: within the framework of community responsibility, individual liberty flourished. Um.
Speaker 1: And you know, we we had this conversation about feminism
Speaker 1: in general a while ago as we were talking about
Speaker 1: the different waves that yes, at one point the women
Speaker 1: wanted to be able to work, which kind of contradicted
Speaker 1: the fact that women who had to work and had
Speaker 1: no choice it had to be menial labor and the
Speaker 1: fact that this is not a right to them. Right.
Speaker 1: But this comes to the path fact that is about
Speaker 1: the balance, because at this point in time, um, Stanton
Speaker 1: and Engage, we're both talking about the fact the women
Speaker 1: were in uh, pretty much servitude to their husbands and
Speaker 1: we're not allowed to do anything else, and had no
Speaker 1: monetary savings themselves and had the rights to anything. So
Speaker 1: if they were ever to be abandoned. They would have nothing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's another thing that was really striking
Speaker 1: to me because even if I personally believe that women's
Speaker 1: work is undervalued, it should be paid way more. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm of the belief like women who stay home and
Speaker 1: take care of kids should get paid some like financial
Speaker 1: compensation because it's a job. This is hard for me
Speaker 1: to believe our society could ever reach a point where
Speaker 1: we equally value quote Bremon's work and men's work, because
Speaker 1: that's how difficult this battle has been, right and it
Speaker 1: still continues to be obviously, as you were talking about,
Speaker 1: even like the pay gap, that we continue to talk
Speaker 1: about the gender gap when it comes to opportunities for
Speaker 1: better jobs or good jobs or different jobs. Um. But
Speaker 1: there was a balance in the hood of the Shaunning community.
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner rights. Women were responsible for everything in the
Speaker 1: earth while men had the care of everything on the earth.
Speaker 1: And yes, that's I think that's part of the biggest
Speaker 1: conversations that gets lost when it comes to like men's
Speaker 1: rights movements and all this. Both we want to get
Speaker 1: the equal footing, and at this point that's no longer.
Speaker 1: Equality is equity and that's a conversation we need to
Speaker 1: have in itself, and of course it becomes an intersectional thing,
Speaker 1: which yes, it's a big, big conversation, but to the
Speaker 1: fact that they started equal, they've been equal. They don't
Speaker 1: have to talk about equity because they're already equal. And
Speaker 1: this is the conversation that we don't have enough of.
Speaker 1: And it's this balance of like, yeah, you can have
Speaker 1: this one and one, one and one, as in like, okay,
Speaker 1: if you want to be a stay at home mom,
Speaker 1: that's wonderful, you do you, but you also have that
Speaker 1: right to have a vacation, to have a compensation, and
Speaker 1: have time off, like all of those things where you
Speaker 1: should be allowed that just as much as the husband is,
Speaker 1: and that he should be able to follow through with
Speaker 1: that as his is, Like he gets vacation every day
Speaker 1: if she's they are taking care of the children and
Speaker 1: feeding him and cleaning the house. Equality would be that
Speaker 1: he would take that footing as if this was her
Speaker 1: job as well, right with equal compensation at equal time off.
Speaker 1: But that's that's a whole different I digress. Yes, it's
Speaker 1: just yes. And with all of this knowledge, the movement
Speaker 1: went forward. The activists took up the act of civil disobedience,
Speaker 1: including trying to vote and not paying taxes. They declared
Speaker 1: the States violating the law by quote refusing to women's
Speaker 1: citizens the exercise of a right secured to them by
Speaker 1: the Constitution of the United States, including the denial of
Speaker 1: women's legal right to vote. And it was soon after
Speaker 1: that Susan B. Anthony would be arrested and tried for
Speaker 1: voting in eighteen seventy three, which led to Anthony being
Speaker 1: found guilty of voting and find one hundred dollars, which
Speaker 1: would lead to the Supreme Court case brought on by
Speaker 1: Virginia Minor, but they lost. The court declared quote, states
Speaker 1: have the absolute right to grant or deny suffrage. But
Speaker 1: of course that didn't stop them from continuing to fight
Speaker 1: another quote from the book, ridiculed labeled heretics and arrested
Speaker 1: for the crime of voting, The courageous suffragists continued to
Speaker 1: believe in the rightness of their cause, and as they
Speaker 1: continued to work for the right to vote, the activists
Speaker 1: kept looking to the examples of the Hodden Shawni people.
Speaker 1: Dr Wagner quotes both Stanton and Gauge Stanton rights the
Speaker 1: women were the great power among the clan. As everywhere else,
Speaker 1: they did not hesitate when occasion required to knock off
Speaker 1: the horns as it was technically called, from the head
Speaker 1: of a chief and sent him back to the ranks
Speaker 1: of the warriors. The original nomination of the chiefs also
Speaker 1: always rested with the women, and from Gauge quote, the
Speaker 1: common interests of the confederacy were arranged in councils, each
Speaker 1: sex holding one of its own, although the women took
Speaker 1: the initiative suggestion orders of their own sex, presenting their
Speaker 1: views to the council of men, right, and they could
Speaker 1: they held tied to that. Um, we still don't have that. No,
Speaker 1: I'm so discarded. Um, of course, like it is. It's
Speaker 1: something that they looked for. This was radical, So I'm
Speaker 1: not gonna lie. I knew about Stanton, kind of knew
Speaker 1: about Gauge, not really, but to understand that they saw
Speaker 1: the bigger picture. They saw the bigger picture even for today,
Speaker 1: and it's phenomenal that we're still behind what they wanted. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think that's one of those things where it's
Speaker 1: also so difficult to untangle when your government is kind
Speaker 1: of based in white supremacy and in sexism and in racism,
Speaker 1: like all of those systems. So like they're trying to
Speaker 1: get the right to vote within this system that's already
Speaker 1: kind of messed up, um, And so when you see,
Speaker 1: you know, the hun is shiny, they can just knock
Speaker 1: the horns off as they say, like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: not working. Whereas we have like convicted like sexual assault
Speaker 1: people who represent us in our government and can't seem
Speaker 1: to get them out right, Like it's just such a
Speaker 1: stark again stark difference, and then we accept it. M hmm.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like have a House of representatives whose
Speaker 1: entire campaign was based all on lines, yeah, and our
Speaker 1: speaking of the House refuses to denounce him yep, who
Speaker 1: was a veteran and it was supposed to be one
Speaker 1: of the better right conservative representatives. Like that that level
Speaker 1: just blows my mind, like are you kidding me? And
Speaker 1: we didn't talk much about it before in this outside
Speaker 1: of like talking about how much didn't and Gauge really
Speaker 1: opposed the Church um and felt like they were a
Speaker 1: giant oppressors. So here's a quote from Gauge that Dr
Speaker 1: Wagner pulls forth that the woman of every Christian Land
Speaker 1: fears to meet a man in a secluded place by
Speaker 1: day or night is of itself sufficient proof of the
Speaker 1: low state of Christian morality. That's pretty damning. I mean
Speaker 1: totally on point though. Yeah, if you had good you
Speaker 1: can't feel safe around a quote good Christian man the dark.
Speaker 1: That is saying something right. And they talked about beyond that,
Speaker 1: about the oppression of men, and that the religion, religion
Speaker 1: in itself that was brought over by uh the European standards,
Speaker 1: was to oppress women and that's the intention of it all.
Speaker 1: And if they hold on to that, that women will
Speaker 1: never have freedom and they will never have rights, and
Speaker 1: that the first they must abolish the church essentially. Um.
Speaker 1: And I found that interesting in this conversation, and that
Speaker 1: quote that Gage says applies today. I hate you did
Speaker 1: so much. Yeah, it's true. And I like, like we
Speaker 1: said at the top, I didn't know that religion was
Speaker 1: going to be such a big part of this. I
Speaker 1: was shocked that at this time they were saying this stuff,
Speaker 1: not because they were wrong, but because it feels so
Speaker 1: explosive even today, right, But they were back then like Nope,
Speaker 1: it's not gonna work. The fact that, yeah, that women
Speaker 1: were actually printing this as a part of their goals
Speaker 1: essentially and in some of their points is phenomenal because
Speaker 1: we know how pure toan level, uh it was in
Speaker 1: that point in time, and to have these women come
Speaker 1: forward again, I didn't realize honestly, that level and that depth.
Speaker 1: I just assumed there were Christian women because most of
Speaker 1: the time that I hear from about the suffrages, I
Speaker 1: think about the prohibition to in nineteen twenties as it
Speaker 1: comes around, So that didn't link to me and all
Speaker 1: of that because it was kind of the morality level
Speaker 1: as well, like women have uh an opinion, they created
Speaker 1: the temperance society at that point in the nineteen twenties,
Speaker 1: so a little later, but still all these things um
Speaker 1: in the nineteen hundreds and and understanding at that point
Speaker 1: that that is such a different point of view. Not
Speaker 1: that I don't know Stanton engages opinions on alcohol, but
Speaker 1: I guess maybe today that's what I like, that could
Speaker 1: Christian behavior kind of goes alongside that. So seeing them
Speaker 1: out right being outspoken about their disdain about European Christianity, wow,
Speaker 1: like wow, Yeah, I think there's also just this is
Speaker 1: my experience. There's kind of a general vibe that everybody
Speaker 1: was pretty every like white European Christian was pretty religious. Um.
Speaker 1: And so that's just sort of my assumption is like
Speaker 1: almost everybody was religious, um. But that doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: it was the case. So with that, I think it's
Speaker 1: it's something that we we should know that because we
Speaker 1: often talk about the beginning of movements, uh, and even
Speaker 1: the beginning of the country as some kind of religious
Speaker 1: adventure or whatever. And this was obviously not that. This
Speaker 1: is obviously not that they were radical. They were radical
Speaker 1: to the core. They would be radical today. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure didn't want of them say that, Like she
Speaker 1: kind of called out the hypocrisy of oh, you wanted
Speaker 1: to leave Europe because of religious persecution and now that
Speaker 1: I'm saying this, yeah, and as in fact that she
Speaker 1: talked about that you wanted freedom and the rights that
Speaker 1: we were so oppressed by, and then we fought with you,
Speaker 1: and then you took it away from us to how
Speaker 1: we were with you. We were with you in this
Speaker 1: calls and they quote Abigail Adams, which was before that movement,
Speaker 1: in her hopes that things would change for women, but
Speaker 1: it didn't, and she feared that. She feared that we
Speaker 1: were working alongside these men, but we're not going to
Speaker 1: get the rights. Yeah, but you know they're there's so
Speaker 1: there's so much to this, Yeah, and then you know,
Speaker 1: we want to end it on a little more of
Speaker 1: a positive note, I guess. And as Dr Wagner talked
Speaker 1: about and early in the book the idea of balance
Speaker 1: for the hood in a Johnny is Key, she writes,
Speaker 1: the hood in a Shawnee worldview is based on keeping
Speaker 1: everything in balance. Women and men each have responsibilities they
Speaker 1: must carry out to maintain this balance. The clan mother
Speaker 1: has the entire extended family that makes up a clan
Speaker 1: um and that it's an amazing representation, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It was their lifestyle of what it could be. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it feels like we're just saying the same thing
Speaker 1: over andre, but you really it's like, when you read it,
Speaker 1: it's devastating how hard it was for me to even
Speaker 1: envision a lot of this um And it's been here
Speaker 1: this whole time. They've see have been living this life
Speaker 1: and finding this balance. Yeah. Yeah, And I think it's
Speaker 1: interesting because when we think about equality, the word balance
Speaker 1: doesn't come to mind for me, but it is. That's
Speaker 1: exactly what we're asking for, is a balance UM. And
Speaker 1: when balance happens, equity happens so that we can all
Speaker 1: catch up to that the scale is balanced and brought
Speaker 1: back to as it should be and being equal to all.
Speaker 1: But it's such an interesting aspect of seeing that in
Speaker 1: in such a symbolic manner. Does that make sense? But Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love this book. I think everyone should read it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're gonna learn a lot of history that you don't know.
Speaker 1: You're gonna understand and be jealous of a culture that,
Speaker 1: unforly many of the colonizers try to completely destroy UM
Speaker 1: And I'm glad it didn't, And I'm glad it's coming
Speaker 1: back in full force and in at least being in conversation.
Speaker 1: I'm glad you've met someone like got you, Junie Fox,
Speaker 1: who was doing so much to make sure that story
Speaker 1: is out there, and for Dr Wagner, who was also
Speaker 1: making sure that she's not only not only shining a
Speaker 1: light onto our own prejudice, but shining a light on
Speaker 1: the rest of us and and letting us know the
Speaker 1: true history behind some of the things that we just
Speaker 1: attribute to a few people, a few white people and
Speaker 1: making it bigger. Yes, yes, I I totally agree that,
Speaker 1: like everyone should read this, go watch the documentary. Um
Speaker 1: and I know got you, Junie Fox said in her interview,
Speaker 1: and she said this in other interviews. This should be
Speaker 1: taught in schools, and I one thousands agree it should
Speaker 1: be in every school. Absolutely. Yes, well, uh, clearly we
Speaker 1: had so much to say off this. We feel like
Speaker 1: it'll definitely give you a lot to think about. So
Speaker 1: if you haven't already, if there's something else like this
Speaker 1: we should be reading and talking about, let us know.
Speaker 1: We love your suggestions. You can email us at Stephanie
Speaker 1: and mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You can
Speaker 1: find us on Twitter at moms of podcast or on
Speaker 1: Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You and TikTok at
Speaker 1: Stuff I've Never Told You. We have a video. You
Speaker 1: need to go watch it. Yes, thank you Joey. Yes,
Speaker 1: Joey is amazing and patient. We'll always say thanks to
Speaker 1: our super producer, Christina also amazing evasion. Yes, yes, and
Speaker 1: thanks to you for listening Stuff I've Never Told You, the
Speaker 1: the production I Heart Radio. For more podcast from my
Speaker 1: Heart Radio, you can check out the heart radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, wherever you listen to your favorite shows.