Birmingham Lit Fest Presents….

In today’s podcast, we welcome debut author Elle McNicoll in conversation with Dr Melanie Ramdarshan Bold about her first novel A Kind of Spark. Join Elle and Melanie as they discuss the importance of representing neurodiversity in children’s
fiction, inclusive publishing and recognising buried histories.

The Birmingham Lit Fest Presents... podcast brings writers and readers together to discuss some of 2020’s best books. Each Thursday across the next few months we’ll be releasing new episodes of the podcast, including wonderful discussions
about writing, poetry, big ideas and social issues. Join us each week for exciting and inspiring conversations with new, and familiar, writers from the Midlands and beyond.

Take a look at the rest of this year's digital programme on our website: https://www.birminghamliteraturefestival.org/.
For more information on Writing West Midlands, visit https://writingwestmidlands.org/

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Credits

Curator: Shantel Edwards (Festival director)
Guest Curator: Kit de Waal
Production: 11C/ Birmingham Podcast Studios for Writing West Midlands

TRANSCRIPT

BLF Podcast Transcription, Episode 11: Elle McNicoll  

Kit de Waal 

Welcome to the Birmingham Lit Fest Presents…podcast series. I’m Kit de Waal and I’ve worked with the  Festival Director, Shantel Edwards, as Guest Curator of this year’s podcast series. Each Thursday across the  next few months we’ll be releasing new episodes of the podcast, including wonderful discussions about  writing, poetry, big ideas and social issues. In today’s podcast, we welcome debut author Elle McNicoll in  conversation with Dr Melanie Ramdarshan Bold about her first novel A Kind of Spark. Elle’s novel follows 11- year-old Addie as she campaigns to fund a memorial to commemorate the witch trials that took place in her  Scottish hometown, drawing nuanced parallels between the ignorance surrounding Addie’s autism and that  which fuelled historic witch trials. Join Elle and Melanie as they discuss the importance of representing  neurodiversity in children’s fiction, inclusive publishing and recognising buried histories. 

Bournville Book Festival Sponsor Message 

This brilliant episode of the Birmingham Lit Fest Presents…podcast is brought to you in partnership with  Bournville Book Fest, Birmingham’s book festival for children. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Hello, and welcome to the Birmingham Literature Festival. I'm Melanie Ramdarshan Bold. I'm an Associate Professor of Publishing and Book Studies – dream job – at University College London, and I am utterly delighted to be speaking to the lovely debut author, Elle McNicoll today. Elle is the author of the delightful,  warm and funny Middle Grade novel [for readers between the ages of eight and 12], A Kind of Spark, which is about Addie, an 11-year-old autistic girl campaigning for a memorial for the witches trials that took place  in her Scottish village. I had the absolute pleasure of teaching Elle during her Publishing MA at UCL, and it  has been a joy to see her career blossom over the last year. Elle, hello.  

Elle McNicoll 

Hi. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

I'm so excited to speak to you today. 

Elle McNicoll 

Oh, that was surreal having you introduce me.

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

It's so weird, isn't it? But lovely.  

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah, really nice.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

So I'm so delighted to see, you know, the reaction to your book and you as an author over the last few  months. Why don't we start by speaking a wee bit about your route into authorship? 

Elle McNicoll 

Yep. So like Mel just said, I was doing a Publishing MA and I was doing that MA with every intention of going  into publishing as, you know, an editorial assistant or, you know, someone working on the production of  books, not as an author at all. I don't recommend Publishing MAs if you want to be an author, although UCL  was phenomenal, and allowed me to do all the research that I needed for this book, which was the reason I  went. But I wasn't, you know, I wasn't planning on it, and I set up a meeting with Knights Of, who are the  publishers of A Kind of Spark (and I think we'll probably talk about them a bit more later on). But I set up a  meeting with them purely to kind of offer my services as a graduate saying, 'if you ever want a  neurodivergent book on your list, you know, I've got a lot of research on it; I've got my own experience as an  neurodivergent person; I can do any sensitivity reads, proofreading, editing – wherever you need.' That was  the intention of the meeting. And somehow it got turned around to, 'have you written a book?' to which I  stupidly said 'yes'. Even though the book was, you know, had about 2,000 words left to write of it - I've not  told anyone this actually - I went home and wrote those 2,000 words that day. And it's purely by accident Kind Of ended up in the publisher's hands that way. I was looking for a job, I wasn't looking for a book deal. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Well, you got a job as an author at the end, and that's so fortuitous. And I love that idea of Knights Of, you  know, sort of seeing the potential and developing that potential. 

Elle McNicoll 

I hope so. I hope that's what it was. I think David, who's the co-founder of Knights Of [Media], and who's  the person that I took the meeting with, I think he's very, just sort of, 'Have you got a book? Anyone got a  book?' He's just that way, he's very inclusive and encouraging to people. And I think it's very that much the  belief that everyone kind of has a book in them. And, you know, I'm just very lucky that he asked, and I  don't know why I said yes. But if I hadn't, we wouldn't be here, so.

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Delighted that you did say yes. So you talked a wee bit, obviously, I know, you've done the Publishing MA,  and you have developed sort of skill sets and experience and knowledge of the publishing industry, not only  over the course of your MA but before and afterwards as well. So how would you say that your publishing  experience and that experience and knowledge has played into your writing?  

Elle McNicoll 

Well, I don't know how it played into the writing. But I think it definitely played into your kind of business  mindset as an author because nowadays authors have to kind of have that marketing sort of mindset as  well. You know, it's only a small few who are privileged enough to kind of lock themselves away and be  creative and not have to do any kind of PR or marketing or self-promotion. So I think the MA really helped  me kind of hone an idea of where the industry is at the moment. My research and the MA 100 per cent  gave me the confidence to say where the gaps in the industry are (and that's a whole other conversation).  But, you know, it gave me that kind of data and analysis to be, you know – and I'm not an academic writer.  Like please, people listening, do not think I'm in any way academically talented. I'm not but I had the data.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Very modest. I marked some of her assignments. She's being very modest.  

Elle McNicoll 

No, no that is a fib. But I had the data and I had the kind of information to be able to say, well, this is a gap  in the market. And I don't think it's a gap in the market for a good reason; I think it's a neglected audience.  So, it gave me a lot of confidence in that respect to go into a lot of rooms and say, 'I don't think you're  publishing enough books about disabled kids; I don't think you're employing enough disabled people', just  purely from the work that I'd done in the MA. So, it was a huge benefit to me as a – not as a  businesswoman, I don't call myself a businesswoman – but from a kind of non-creative point of view, from a  business point of view it was, you know, it was invaluable. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

So, can you tell us a wee bit more about the research that you undertook? 

Elle McNicoll 

I took over 200 books that had been published in the last sort of publishing cycle in Middle Grade, and I  collated them to see how their disability representation was. And the results were not good. It was very inspired by the Reflecting Realities report, which obviously Mel knows a lot about. And I recommend reading. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

I really love CLPE [Centre for Literacy in Primary Education]. Everyone should read their reports [Reflecting  Realities: the CLPE's survey into ethnic representation in UK Children's Literature]. 

Elle McNicoll 

But I also learned doing that, that Middle Grade was in really good shape story–– like creatively. There was a  lot of exciting stuff being done. It just was excluding this huge proportion of readers. So yeah, I did a lot of  reading, which wasn't hard, it was a great part of the process. And while I was doing that research I started  writing Spark. So, I was writing them in tandem. My dissertation and Spark were both being written side by  side. And I think that they really inform each other a lot. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

I didn't know. I didn't know you were writing them in tandem. That's lovely. So, you've touched upon the  fact that you write for Middle Grade, which is – although we're obviously against age banding – it's aimed  broadly at 8 to 12 years old. And this age is obviously a critical period in academic development, and one  

where there's often a decline in children reading for pleasure. Why do you write for young people,  particularly this Middle Grade audience? 

Elle McNicoll 

So, I agree with the age bracket thing. I like to say that it's a Middle Grade book but it's for eight and up. So, there's no kind of upper age limit–– 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Well, it was one of my favourite books this year and – 

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah! 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

––I'm not in that age bracket. 

Elle McNicoll

I know, I've been so lucky with how many adults have written to me about how much they like it. But yeah, I  write for that age group because that was the age that I really came into my own as a reader. Before that what I liked to read was dictated a lot to me, it was very much prescribed to me. And that was the age  where I started to choose my own reading. And there was a lot of Jacqueline Wilson. I mean, I was an addict  of Jacqueline Wilson's, I blew through her books. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

I mean, she is a queen.  

Elle McNicoll 

She is, she's unparalleled. And so yeah, I think that's why I write for Middle Grade. I'm also a big YA [Young  Adult] fan, but I just love where Middle Grade is at the moment. And I just have such a visceral memory of  being 10 years old, and being a reader and having all these problems at school, but having solace in reading  and so I think I write for those kids that were a bit like me.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Yeah. I mean this is a difficult question to ask, and it's probably one you might not be able to answer but what would a book like Spark have meant for you as, you know, a Middle Grade reader? 

Elle McNicoll 

it would have been life changing. I mean that was partly why I wrote it and had confidence writing it  because it just would have made everything easier because I used books almost as tools. You know, I would  use them to kind of make sense of a world that did not make a lot of sense to me as a neurodivergent child,  you know: social rules and situational kind of everyday hazards. The books were very much tools of how to  navigate those things. And so to have a book like Spark, it would have been life changing. And I'm very, very  adamant that Spark is a story first and foremost and it's written to entertain, and it's written to engage, and  it's written to reflect a neglected reader. But it is also in some ways a little bit of a toolbox. And I got the  most gorgeous message last night from someone saying their eight-year-old niece has read it and is now  fully accepting and ready to proceed with diagnosis because they, finally, they've been resisting it but  because they loved Addie so much they're now not afraid, and they don't see anything wrong with it. And  that is, I mean, I'm getting emotional saying it now. That is huge.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

That's mind-blowing Elle, that’s incredible.

Elle McNicoll 

That's kind of the dream and yeah, so it would have been huge for me. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

And that, you know, that's the power of inclusive and representative literature really, isn't it? 

Elle McNicoll 

Absolutely, yeah.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

And I suppose, obviously, I'm a huge fan of the lovely Knights Of and I think they're doing incredible work.  And I was so delighted when you, you know, that you're publishing with them. You've told us a wee bit  about how David sort of encouraged you to publish with them. What has your experience been like, just the  whole publishing experience, but also publishing with Knights Of in particular? 

Elle McNicoll 

Oh, it's been incredible. Like I always like to say to people that my experience as a published author  probably isn't very universal because it's been a very special publisher. But it was just incredible not to – even in the pitch process of the book, which was like I said earlier very off-the-cuff and not prepared – I  

didn't have to explain to them why it's important that autistic children see themselves in books; why it's  important that 'Own Voices' books are in the Middle Grades age bracket. I didn't have to explain any of that.  And that was kind of radical because I've been in a lot of rooms where people were, you know, a bit sort of  like, 'Well, I don't know if those people read, so I don't think we should––' you know. And I didn't have to do  any of that with Knights Of. I didn't have to explain why, you know, why the book needed to be written and  they were just always making sure that everything was accessible. And they brought in a team that were  also neurodivergent, which is kind of mind blowing, you know. My incredible illustrator and cover designer  is neurodivergent. The second editor that came in to do kind of final checks, Anna, is neurodivergent. It was  unbelievable and I don't think another publisher working at the moment could have done that. And I really,  if Spark has any success right now it is purely down to the K.O. team and the wider team that they work  with because they have just fought for this book so much. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Yeah, I mean they've done an amazing job on social media, and obviously, the response has been incredible  as well. Okay, so I gave a very brief outline of your book earlier. It's so lovely to learn about how you wrote it  in tandem with your dissertation. But how did the idea for Spark come about?

Elle McNicoll 

So, the main premise of the book is this girl who's campaigning for a memorial for the witches in her village.  And that's been an idea I've been playing with since I think my last year of university. So, when we had to do  a kind of major project, I was like, 'I want to write a book about someone campaigning for a memorial'. And  

there was a very early draft way back then. It wasn't a Middle Grade and the character was a lot older and absolutely nothing to do with Addie. And it just wasn't working because the character was very cynical and  very stand-offish and just had a massive chip on their shoulder. Which is, you know, nothing wrong with that  – that's me, you know, it was basically just me. But it just didn't seem to work with the story. I was like, 'Why  would this cynical, defeatist negative person be campaigning for this thing?' And it just wasn't working. So, I  just put it down and didn't touch it again. And then back, you know, last year – it was probably a year ago  now – yeah, just over a year ago now, when I was writing the diss., I just started from scratch again. And put  Addie, who came fully formed, which is quite unusual, put her into the driving seat and suddenly everything  clicked into place and it all made a ton of sense. And, you know, I think that's the advice I would give anyone  if you're struggling with a draft or something's just not clicking, it could be that the protagonist - I think the  protagonist is the absolute core of the book – and the minute Addie showed up, kind of ready to work, then  everything was easy.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

And how did she come to you?  

Elle McNicoll 

She just appeared. I mean, I think – and I can say this to you, Mel, because you kind of understand – I think  when I was sitting on all that research and I just was reading all these books, and reading the same kind of  protagonist over and over again and, you know, trying to find an academic way of saying, 'Well, you know,  

this isn't great for this demographic of kids'. I just kind of created the character that I wanted to see in all of  these books that I wasn't seeing. So, she kind of came as this – not an anti-hero – but just appeared as what  I really wanted to be reading.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

What I loved most was the relationship between Addie and Keedie.  

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah.

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

And actually, just the dynamics between the three sisters in general. 

Elle McNicoll 

Oh, it's such fun to write the three of them. I love writing Keedie and Addie together. Their relationship is  the heart of the book. But Nina is, once Nina's in the mix, it's actually a lot more fun because she's so, she's  such an obstacle to the two of them. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

So were these based on any kind of relationships you've had in your life, whether it's friends or family? 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Probably. I haven't psychoanalysed it deeply enough. But I think Keedie is kind of the person I wish was in  my life when I was Addie's age because she has a lot of the answers to things that I didn't have the answer  to at 11 years old. She has a lot of knowledge and a lot of wisdom that she kind of imparts to Addie because  (for anyone that doesn't know) Keedie is also autistic. They are both autistic sisters. Nina is the only one  that isn't, which is unusual. So, they have this bond and this communication that I think I really wanted as  an 11-year-old. So, I think she's kind of aspirational in some ways. She's grounded in reality as well, and she  has her own arc going on in the story. I can't say who Nina's based on without getting myself  excommunicated from the family. But I think she's a little bit of some people in my family. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

And can we see any aspects of your personality in any of the characters? 

Elle McNicoll 

I mean, Addie has been so well-received by readers that I have to believe there's none of me in her because  everyone just keeps saying how great she is. So, I think I'm a little bit, I mean, Mel taught me at university.  I'm a bit like Keedie because she's not the most academic, even though I think she has things to say, and  she's very, you know, she's got ideas, but just the university environment is a little bit sort of difficult for her.  So, I think there's maybe a bit of me in her. But I like to tell people – I get asked a lot - people say 'Which  sister are you?' and I like to say, 'I'm the woman that lives in the woods, like I just want to be left in the  woods on my own'. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Why do you think young readers will be attracted to Addie's story?

Elle McNicoll 

Well, it kind of touches on what we said earlier. But I truly believe that there are a lot of kids like Addie out  there. And I think a lot of them find their peace and their entertainment in books because books are not as  overwhelming in a sensory fashion as some other things. Because I was that kid; I don't think I was unique  or special. I think there's probably a lot of kids the same way I was out there. And I think the book really is  

kind of like a hand on the shoulder saying like, 'I see you, I've been there, I know exactly how it feels'. But  it's also an engaging story and it's about, you know, Addie doesn't have a superpower, she's not the chosen  one, she doesn't have a magical wand. Everything that she achieves in the book, without giving away the  ending, she does by just being persistent and just getting up each time, every time she's kind of pushed  back down. She just keeps on going. And I think that's a very relatable message. And I think there's a lot of  power in that. And, and I just wanted to tell a story about, you know, there is no magical cure, there is no  magical intervention; sometimes you have to really, really work and people are going to doubt you, but you  just have to keep on pushing. And I think especially in today's world, a lot of people can relate to that. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Absolutely. And so obviously, witches and witchcraft play a central role in the book, and the link between  the treatment of the witches and Addie's fears about being ostracised because she's autistic, was really well  done. Can you tell us a wee bit more about the origins of that idea? 

Elle McNicoll 

That was actually, along with Addie kind of appearing, that was when the story clicked into place because,  like I said, it was always about a witch memorial. But it wasn't until – there was an intern for the, I think the  archives in Scotland that uploaded all of this information about the witch trials and about people who were  accused of witchcraft, and she did it by location. So you could click on locations and it would tell you the  specifics of the trials and the cases.  

And I was reading all these cases in my area, and I was reading each one and it kept saying things the  document, in the court documents, in the notes, things like, 'Would talk to herself. Would ask for money on  the street. Was not sociable. Was not communicative.' And it just kept using this language. And these are  primary sources. These were notes made at the time. And it just kept using this language and I was like, 'I  think a lot of these people had disabilities. I think they were, had neurodevelopmental disabilities', because  the way they're being described, and the behaviour that's being described, is very similar to the behaviours  that people sort of are uncomfortable with and shunned today. And I've been kind of sold a story about  witches, that they were all sort of beautiful, empowered women that the neighbourhood just couldn't handle. And that's why they burned them at the stake. And while I'm sure that was, you know, there was an  element of that there's something very vulnerable about all of the cases I was reading. And I just thought,  'You know, that's probably what it was, you know, the same people that a lot of society pretends they can't  see today, I think that's who they were'. And that's when it kind of clicked into place. I was like, I recognised,  you know, a lot of my younger self or my more vulnerable self in some of the court descriptions and I just  thought, 'Oh, goodness, you know, would I have been hounded in those days just for, you know, not  conforming to, or not being able to mask well enough. So that's where it came from. It came from the  archives. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Yeah, I'm so terribly embarrassed by Scotland's role in the witch trials. Weren't more witches killed in  Scotland than anywhere else? 

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah, I think Germany maybe was matching us. But yeah, it's between Scotland and Germany.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Yeah.  

Elle McNicoll 

A lot of people think, Salem, Massachusetts, but really, we had a much higher, yeah.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

I suppose witch hunting is probably an extension of the Protestant Reformation? 

Elle McNicoll 

Oh definitely, yeah. And a lot of the courtroom docs also said, you know, 'Practising a different religion' or  like there was, yeah. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Yeah. And King James was obviously terribly religious. And I'm just recalling Standard Grade history here.  Wasn't he super religious and terrified of witches?  

Elle McNicoll 

Yes he was, he was always I think. There was a trial in North Berwick because he was convinced that a storm had been, you know, cast by witches to try and kill him. Yeah, he was very paranoid about witches, which is  why they're in Macbeth. Fun fact. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

And I suppose this takes me to my next question. So you mentioned, you know, this idea of witches being,  you know, glamorous and, you know, and they have been glamorised over the years. I certainly remember  watching The Craft in the 1990s and wanting to be a witch. And of course, She Who Cannot Be Named has  catapulted witches and wizards into the spotlight as well. So, my question is, who do you think is more  misunderstood – sharks or witches? 

Elle McNicoll 

I think sharks. I think – oh, see, gotta be careful getting me started about sharks. There's a lot of sharks  mentioned in the book and this won't make a lot of sense if you haven't read the book. But if you have,  then you'll know. You know, I don't want to bring down the podcast on the Birmingham Literature Festival  but we kill millions of sharks every year. And they're such incredible animals and they're so important to the  ecosystem. And I don't know how many more sort of tacky remakes of Jaws we need to see. Like, it's the  same story over and over again, about these animals that really do not want to kill us. So yeah, I think  sharks are still deeply misunderstood. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

I was thinking about this, that sharks are completely maligned. So, I was thinking about popular culture and  I was thinking, you know, all these really glamorous portrayals and cool portrayals of witches and wizards in  popular culture, and I was thinking, 'Where are sharks? You know. What are positive - and the only shark  that I could think of was Bruce in Finding Nemo. 

Elle McNicoll 

And even he – sorry to be a nerd – but even he, when he smells a bit of blood turns into this kind of–– 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

That's right! 

Elle McNicoll 

––dangerous. It's like, I remember that. Oh, Mel, you don't know what you've done! I was watching that  when it, when it came out in the cinema as a kid, and I remember thinking, 'Yes, someone's finally, you  know, they're not giving into that old tired trope'. But nope, 10 minutes in and he smells blood and he's off. 

So yeah. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

So, what we need is a series of, a series of books and TV programmes that centre sharks.  

Elle McNicoll 

Reclaiming the representation of sharks. I'm on it.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Well, I'm very excited about that. I'd love to read more about Addie, particularly seeing what her and her  pals get up to next. Is there any chance of a sequel? 

Elle McNicoll 

I'd love to write - ultimately, I'd love for it to be a trilogy, like The Juniper Trilogy. I would love to write a  sequel with Addie and Audrey, where maybe Addie goes and does like Scottish Youth Parliament or  something a little bit more big city, so that they have to get out of the village. But I'd love to have a sequel  that's just really joyful and wholesome and kind of just not so focused on the neurodivergent aspects that  the book has because I don't want to write the same book over and over. I'd just love to have a sequel  where Addie goes on to kind of live her life a bit. I'd love to write a prequel with Keddie because I just think  that there's a lot of stuff to tell there. So yeah, ultimately, I'd love to write three in total. It's completely up  to the publishers. But I'd love a sequel with Addie who, when she's a bit older, like maybe 14, maybe like a  bit of a teen book, because there's just so much to talk about when you're a teenager who's  neurodivergent, you know. It's just, it's a different way of telling that kind of early adolescent story. And I'd  like to write something kind of fun and joyful, and after the year we've all had. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Yeah, I mean, I found that Spark was really fun and funny–– 

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah, so do I, but you know, a sequel without the villain that's in this story hanging over Addie the whole  time, yeah. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

So, I will start a petition because I would love to read this three, the series. And I think, you know, from  what I've seen the book has been beautifully received. What is your experience about the reception, especially at the kind of age range that it's been aimed at? 

Elle McNicoll 

Well, like I said, I get messages like the person who let me know that their niece is now excited about  diagnosis, which is just unbelievable. And I get letters from parents saying, 'Oh, my child doesn't like to read  fiction, this is the first fiction book they read and they really like it and they're on their third read'. And, you  know, that's incredible. And I get teachers saying, 'You know, this has taught me more than any course I've  been on and now I have kind of an understanding of how to, you know, adapt my classroom'. It's been  phenomenal. Librarians, teachers, parents, kids, like everyone has been so fantastic. And you know, the  book came out in June when book shops were closed and yet booksellers just rallied around it and we're so  supportive and it did have its kind of its debut even with all of the restrictions and so that I can't really  express how incredible the response has been. It's been overwhelming. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

So, what has it been like being, you know, being a debut author during lockdown, particularly since an  aspect of your jobs would have been school visits? 

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah, that's hard. It's been very hard. Like, I don't like to talk about it too much because there's so many  bigger things going on. I don't want to be sort of like, ‘waah, I can't go and meet readers'. But it is hard not  being able to see readers face-to-face. Social media, you know, thank goodness. I know people talk about  the evils of social media a lot but I've just, it's been a lifesaver for connecting me with readers and giving  them a way to sort of, you know, give them my email address if they want to write and it's just, it's been a  lifesaver. But yeah, it's been hard not being able to see people face-to-face. You know in general, not just in  terms of promoting the book. But, you know, I haven't seen any of, you know, I've been lucky enough to see  my editor but I haven't, you know, seen any of the team. I've not met my illustrator face-to-face. I've not  met my publicist face-to-face. It's been all done through technology. And it's, and you just kind of want to  see everyone and celebrate, especially when the book's done quite well. But there's so many bigger  problems going on that you just go, oh, you know, get a grip. It's not a big deal. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

It's still tough though. 

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah. But I've met with my editor face-to-face to talk about the structural changes for my second book,  which is in the works at the moment. So that was lovely. So, you know, thank goodness for technology for  keeping us all connected. But yeah, it's been hard. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Are you allowed to tell us what you're working on now? 

Elle McNicoll 

It's a completely different book in every way. Eishar, my editor, who's the Editorial Director of Knights Of has  forbidden me from talking too much about it. But it's a Middle Grade again, it's a neurodivergent heroine,  and I like to kind of describe it, it's like a pre-dystopia. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Kind of like where we're living at just now? 

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah, kind of like contemporary fiction. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

So you're basically an author now. That's very exciting. What would you say your favourite thing is about  writing? 

Elle McNicoll 

Writing? I actually really like it. I think a lot of authors sort of talk about how much they hate writing. But I  really like it, I find it really a great way to kind of switch the brain off. And, and yet also just engage  everything you have and forget the world for a bit. I really enjoy writing. And it's lovely when people like  what you've written, that's always a great feeling. It's a terrifying feeling when someone tells you they're  about to read your book, that's probably the worst part of it. But no, I really like writing. I'm really glad I get  to do it for a job. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

It's amazing, I'm really proud of you. So, you talked earlier about the magnificent Jacqueline Wilson and  how she was an important part of your childhood reading. Is there, you know, a book from Jacqueline  Wilson or any other book from your youth that still resonates with you today? 

Elle McNicoll

Yes, there are two books that really resonate today with me. One would be Anne of Green Gables, which  was written a long time ago, but I still just love. And I like to say that with Spark I tried to write a sort of  neurodivergent Anne of Green Gables, where it's about a girl in her community. But with Jacqueline Wilson  she wrote a book called Secrets, which has two protagonists, one from a very deprived background and one  from a very affluent background. And it's about their relationship and their friendship and the ups and  downs of their lives. And I just loved that as a 10-year-old and I would describe it to my parents and they  were like, 'What do you like about it? What is fun about this book?' But you can't really put your finger on  why Jacqueline Wilson books were so good but I just loved it. And she didn't hold any punches and I just  yeah, nobody has written a book in my eyes that has touched me with two protagonists the way Secrets did,  you know. Now when I read books with two different viewpoints I'm like, 'Ugh, Secrets was better'. 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Okay, well, thank you so much for speaking to me today. I think everyone would love to hear a passage from  your book. So, do you have one picked out? 

Elle McNicoll 

Yeah, I'm just gonna read the beginning nice and quick if that's okay? 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Of course. 

Elle McNicoll 

Chapter one.  

'This handwriting is utterly disgraceful.'  

I hear the words but they seem far away, as if they are being shouted through a wall. I continue to  stare at the piece of paper in front of me. I can read it. I can make out every word even through the  blurriness of tears. I can feel everyone in the classroom watching me: my best friend, her new friend, the  new girl. Some of the boys are laughing. I just keep staring at my writing.  

Then suddenly it's gone. Miss Murphy has snatched it from my desk and is now ripping it up. The  sound of the paper being torn is overly loud, right in my ears. The characters in the story I was writing beg  her to stop but she doesn't. She crumples it all together and throws it towards the classroom bin. She  misses. My story lies in a heap on the scratchy carpet.  

'Do not ever write so lazily again!' she shouts. Maybe she isn't even shouting but it feels that way.  'Do you hear me Adeline?' I prefer being called Addie. 'Not ever. A girl your age knows better than to write  like that. Your handwriting is like a baby's.' 

I wish my sister was here. Keddie always explains the things that I cannot control or explain for  myself. She makes sense of them. She understands.’ 

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure to speak to you today.  

Elle McNicoll 

Oh, you too. This was lovely.  

Melanie Ramdarshan Bold 

And I can't wait to read your next book.  

Elle McNicoll 

Thank you. 

Outro message 

Thank you for listening to this week’s episode of the Birmingham Lit Fest presents…podcast. If you enjoyed  this episode, we’d love for you to tell us about it – leave us a review or a rating and find us on Instagram,  Twitter and Facebook @bhamlitfest. You can download our latest podcast episodes, every Thursday, from  all the places you would normally get your podcasts and find transcripts of our episodes in the shownotes  and on our website at www.birminghamliteraturefestival.org . Details about our full programme can also be  found on our website. Until then, happy reading! 

The Birmingham Lit Fest Presents... podcast is curated by Shantel Edwards and produced by 11C and  Birmingham Podcast Studios for Writing West Midlands.