Sounds Profitable - Podcast Adtech & Advertising

The pace of change the podcast adtech industry is undergoing is staggering. The implications for podcasters, hosting providers, podcast listening app developers, and even advertisers and agencies are enormous. And so are the profits. Presented as a companion but stand-alone version of the weekly newsletter of the same name, each episode of Sounds Profitable will be a fluff-free experience for you. Along with industry experts, I'll help you understand how you can take advantage of podcast adtech to stay ahead of the curve and, well... make more money as more money from advertising pours into podcasting. That Sounds Profitable, right? Assumptions and conventional wisdom will be challenged. Easy answers with no proof of efficacy will be exposed. Because the thinking that got podcast advertising close to a billion dollars annually will need to be drastically overhauled to bring in the tens or hundreds of billions of dollars podcast advertising deserves. So join me, Bryan Barletta, as I bring to you Sounds Profitable, the podcast companion series. It's part of the PodNews network, and if you're not already reading my newsletter, then you should be.


episode 25: Sounds Profitable's Premium Blend w/Jason Sew Hoy

Are you listening to our Supercast Feed? Good! Are you not? Why not? It’s free! And Jason Sew Hoy is here to explain why joining the feed is good for you and us!Key Links:

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Bryan: Premium feeds added value and experimentation. That's what we're talking about this week on sounds profitable with me, Brian Barletta.This episode of sounds profitable is brought to you by. It's podcast attribution, go to pod more information.I know that you're listening to sounds profitable because podcasts ad tech is important to you, but it's important to me that you are kept up to date on the latest news from the entire podcast industry to help with. Here's what happened last week? No matter when you're listening from James Cridlin at pod news.A ton of you are already listening to this podcast on our private feed with super CAS, for the rest of you. You should probably be listening to that private feed on super gas. It's free. It gives you bonus content and allows us to have a better level of interaction with you. The listener there's a link to join in the description and a link to the article.I wrote about the process of getting it started. I spoke with Jason Sue Hoyt from super cast about the experimental world of private beats and how we're trying to be on the bleeding edge. Awesome. Well, Jason, thank you so much for joining me today. Very excited to have you here. We got Jason from super pleasure to be here.Ron.Jason: I never know where our conversations are going to go, so perfect.Bryan: Awesome. So we w the companions to the article that I wrote about the premium feed that I started with sounds profitable. And it's so neat because I met Jason whose super cast is all over. Premium feeds. And I said, I wanted to give people more of a hands-on experience with it.And that's like a big part of sounds profitable that I like to focus on is that my audience, all of you listening are focused so heavily on like how to implement this, but you don't get to be the listener that often. And so I wanted to get you to be the listener and I also didn't want to charge you any money.So the first thing I put in front of Jason was how do I do a premium feed without asking for it? And, and that was really fun to dig into it.Jason: Yeah, absolutely. You know, we have our own podcast, we eat our own dog food. So I host a podcast called super casters as, as part of, you know, our take on experimenting with our own technology and also, you know, kind of bringing some additional thoughts on premium feeds as well to our world and creators that are using it in interesting ways and building sustainable businesses.And so that was kind of our first take on like a free. Uh, offering so to speak. And so we, in a similar way to what you're doing with sounds profitable, let people discover the episodes are free. But then what I do is like reserve one topic that I know that particular guest is an expert on for the premium version of the show.And so every that's kind of like the format that I've rolled into every episode, such that there's a compelling reason. For listeners to go up and sign up to that premium experience and, you know, kind of get that extra five, 10 minutes of, of, you know, goodness from their particularBryan: expert. Uh, you know, I really want to commend you on that.I think the truth is, is that there are so many people in ad tech in podcasting specifically that don't use their own products in any capacity, right? There are so many people in ad tech who are not podcasters and you don't need to necessarily be, but you like having hands on experience regardless of your.Helps you empathize with the entire ecosystem helps you understand the impact of these little changes, right. From everything on there. So everybody should absolutely check out super casters. Uh, hopefully I'll be a guest on it one day, but I like that too, because that's such an interesting approach, right?Because your entire product is getting people to create a premium feed and to charge for it. You're looking for clients to come on board to use super CAS. And you're providing a premium feed that shows it, that does have a paid component to it. Yeah. Right.Jason: So you mean for super casters ourselves, there's no payment involved.So, so, so it's the free version. Exactly. It's very similar way to what you're operating with. Sounds profitable because you know, ultimately, you know, our whole business model is about bringing creators on board, which then create a premium version of their podcast for their audience, which the vast majority of the time they're monetizing and charging subscribers.Uh, w you know, we just want this to be a place where the creators themselves can come and learn more about, you know, what's going on within the world of subscription podcasting. So you're absolutely right. It was a way the selfish interest amongst it for myself was I wanted it to feel like a podcast, or I wanted to know.How do we build, you know, the technology stack that's required, you know, from this microphone, you know, that I've got, you know, like right in front of me too. Yeah. Using Riverside, you know, like to the production, working with a producer, working with an editor, Through to, how do I think about constructing a private feed, such that I get an inside look at, who's actually listening to my content, you know, like public public podcasts, obviously get you so far, you know, you could get aggregated stats on downloads, audience geography, all that sort of stuff.But the real beauty of super cast is. When somebody signs up to my premium feed, I establish a one-to-one relationship with each one of those lists hundred percent. So not everybody does it, but obviously I'm allowed to be completely biased with my own show. And, and to basically say, look, there is some really great stuff that you can get for free.I want you to continue this conversation. You know, you, you will benefit from hearing the tail end of this conversation. Here's why, and then all you have to do is click the link in the show notes to go to, sign up for free. And then all the premium episodes will go straight into the podcast player of your choice.So absolutely free and in the process of doing so. From the subscriber's point of view, they then get access to Supercars. They get to, uh, see the flow and you know, how easy it is, you know, just, you know, with a couple of taps where the premium feet and to their chosen podcast player, where they do all the rest of their listing, uh, and on the backend, I get to see what content they're engaging with, you know, and that's the really powerful thing is that, you know, like, Each individual subscriber at which episodesBryan: they're listening to.That's so killer, like, so sounds profitable has about 750 unique listeners in a month, according to my wish guest stats. But then with super cast, I have about a hundred and twenty, a hundred and twenty five total subscribers, which is super cool. Right. It's podcast advertising technology. Podcasts in a premium feed, like I'm blown away by those numbers, but what's even more cool is that when we're doing the survey with Edison research and I created an episode with the individual's name on it, because they give me that information when they sign up and I send it out, pleading for them to take a survey about the quality of the podcast.I can see that within 48 hours, 76 of my hundred and 25 people. Actually download it. That's so cool. Right in these engagement metrics are great. Now all of you listening, please go take the survey that you're going to hear more about because we haven't gotten that many that have actually done it, but that's like, those metrics are valuable.Like when I look at it, like the bigger the podcast company is like, even without charging the list, Right. And your rates are, are, is itJason: 59 cents per 59Bryan: cents per user, per month, even absorbing that cost, it's like seven and change for a year, right? Yeah. That comes out right. Having that type of data, having that type of connection, being able to call on the listener, specifically, being able to interact with them, being able to build an email list, being able to offer them other things.I cannot imagine that even by a company absorbing that cost, which isn't even the main goal. I definitely think we should charge people for more content. I think there's such a powerful room there, but $7 in change a year per listener for an engaged listener. Is nothing for the value that you can extract from that.And the value that you can get from a more intimate engagement that you can't buy from apple, you can't buy from Spotify. There's nothing else, but a third party solution canJason: provide them. Totally. I mean, if you there's just, you know, a number of different companies using premium feeds in different ways, obviously where we got us.Was, you know, with independent county creditors that, you know, were, are looking to monetize via premium subscription. So, you know, like Sam Harris, for example, the team that built super cast actually built the solution for Sam Harris first for him to, for his podcast. Where, you know, you pay, I think it's, you know, $15 per month, you know, to basically, you know, get the back half of, uh, you know, a lot of has, has conversations.And so just seeing, you know, like, you know, how much of a success he made that you know, was, was what helped us roll into this idea? There's just so much more being left on the table from a podcast as audience, then, then what they're able to capture with ads and CPMs alone, and really it's that thousand true fans model.You know, that 5,000 true fans model of, Hey, even if only 5% is willing to pay you $10 a month, that works out to be a pretty big number on a recurring basis, you know, with an audience even as large as 10,000 downloads per episode, or 20,000 downloads per episode, we, as we've got into it. Yeah. These other interesting use cases have, have, you know, kind of cropped out of the woodwork.And so we're then corporate podcasting. For example, we've had, uh, you know, beyond insurance, fourth largest, you know, insurance network and, and north America, they use a podcast to, to basically communicate to their franchise, to their, to their members within, you know, their membership network. And so, you know, you can imagine when you have, you know, kind of distributed members in a membership like that, you don't have tight control over their it.And you know, all of the stuff that they're using. So podcasts just podcasting just comes into its own because anybody can use whatever podcast player they want, but they still have the ability to connect into their private feed. And you still have the ability as the publisher to be able to read it.Access to people that are, uh, a current member. And so again, those people essentially get the access to that as part of their overall membership to be on insurance, they don't have to pay an additional thing that they just get it as part of their membership and supercar banks that integrationBryan: seamless.I love that. And I think that internal podcasts and communication for things. Yeah. Are honestly something that we sleep on. We don't think about it the same way, because there's no ads in it and it's not part of the bigger ecosystem, but Rob once explained to me that there was a company that they worked with that was like all taxi drivers.And they would do like their all hands meeting through podcasts or like their, their regional check-ins and things like that. And yeah. Like I'm so caught up in my life sometimes that I forget that like not everybody deals with email, even for their work, right. There are, there are probably more people out there working day to day that don't have a work piece of technology.They've got their phones. They can put their headphones in when they're working, they can take a minute for that break. But if you said to some companies like, Hey, you're all forklift operators. Like, Hey everybody, we're going to do a big zoom, all hands meeting. Like some of them might not have the technology or the, the offices might not have enough room.IJason: would say the vast majority of them wouldn't, you know, howBryan: many, how many of those places even need a workspace that has like a big TV and a camera to engage with them. So like, and,Jason: and, and flip it on it. How many of them are going around and doing their job very effectively, like think of taxi drivers, forklift, operators, electricians.Yeah. AirPods. Yes. And there is, you know, as they're doing this, you know, like they all have a mobile phone on them and they all have AirPods in them. This is of course, you know, since we're all in podcasting, we know, you know, like this is fueling a lot of, you know, like the growth, you know, I think from a corporate perspective, you know, this is just, you know, starting to come in time.A medium that they can use.Bryan: Yeah. I super agree, because I think that people find a lot of value with like, uh, like zoom meetings and whatnot and, and the remote working to a degree. But I think also people get burned out on video. I think w the work environment's going to change overall, but it does feel like chorus.Audio is really getting a foothold and it does feel like it is not that much to expect that someone has a way to listen to a downloaded podcasts on their own without it's our equipment. I mean, you'reJason: taking the, you know, the intimacy of a medium that we know and love and effectively, you know, it's just building on that too.And have those messages come from your leadership, you know, like from, from your CEO and from your, uh, you know, executives and then. On the flip side, other entities are also experimenting with a way as a way to empower marketing, to, you know, reach prospects in a new way as well. We, of course branded podcasts, nothing new, plenty of brands are doing branded podcasts, but again, you have zero visibility over who is listening to, uh, to, to your branded product.Marketing teams, you know, like I've been doing gated content for years, you know, like you think about gating blogs, you think about eBooks and PDFs and things like that, that they, you know, first require your email capture to get access to. Now we are bringing like podcasts into that folder as well. And so that, you know, beyond insurance, as another example, you know, like.They're also using that podcast or a different form of it to capture prospects at the front door. People that might want to become part of it. It work. Now I get a taste of, you know, messages from, you know, the leadership team and, and stories and, and case studies from, uh, what it's like to, you know, to be on the inside and the marketing team and the sales team also gets to understand.Who signed up today, who and which episodes are they lessening it? And how can we kind of build that into our overall, uh, nurture pipeline?Bryan: Yeah. I mean, like, even if you just acknowledge that, not everybody who listens to your podcast is going to sign up for it. What you're figuring out is your super listeners.And from there, you're going to figure out what content they like. And if these are the type of people that subscribe and there's enough consistencies with the type of content that. That can help you decide what type of additional content to create. It could be enough to motivate you to create a separate podcast.It can be so powerful. And the monetization side is where people get hung up on these. The first thing everybody thinks about is making a premium feed ad free. And I'm super against that. I think that that's a bad standard to get on there because we're already indoctrinated with the mindset that you can pay for an ad free version of Hulu.But there is one with ads. HBO, max is introducing one with it. And they make the price difference. So minimal that like, for me, I, one day I was like, oh, pay for Hulu with ads. I don't think I made it through the fourth ad before I upgraded back into it. And it was like a $4 difference. Yeah. So I think that like premium content doesn't need to be ad free, but, but if you decide it does $50 CPM, which is very high.You know, those of you get in it. Congratulations, but it's very high, a hundred percent fill rate, which is kind of a pipe dream for all year long and six ad slots. If I release a podcast episode every single week, I would make $15 and 60 cents. I believe off of that one person downloading 52 episodes a year, listening to six ads, an episode at $50 a week.So in a world where I charge $2 a month, and this is not an encouragement to race to the bottom. Please charge what you think is appropriate. I've already made. I don't know, what's that $8 more I've made about 50% over what I would have made off of them for advertising, or I've made one additional listeners worth, or like 50% of another listener.Right. As you get higher up there as you start charging more. Real easy $5 at three months is almost a year's worth of that listener, listening into it. They have toJason: chase for six months to get the actual moneyBryan: There might be a little bit of a problem with net. How many days people pay out advertising? I think there's so many cool models that people can explore. I mean, you can explore the idea of just doing sponsorship at the beginning. You know, this episode is brought to you by super cast and it's completely ad-free thank you for listening.And I hope you check out super casts. That's an ad. I mean, you can charge for that, but it doesn't feel like an ad because you said this episode is ad free because of this advertiser. Like, there are interesting ways to go about that. There's branded content and so many cool things, but I think at the end of the day, This, just this area is just ripe to explore.Jason: Totally. Yeah. I think that's a really important point. And ultimately it's about what value and what ways do you have to deliver value to your list? So your tier point, a lot of the times, if you're really thoughtful about your ads and the ads that you serve. Then it's actually a great source of value for your listeners.You would be a prime example, you know, like th that the kinds of stuff that you put in and the sponsors are exactly why people are listening to your podcast because they not only get exposed to new technology and new vendors and new providers, but they get your take on it. Brian's taken me, they can know for certain that Brian's checked it out, you know, he's looked under the rocks and he's gone a step further.You know, you're, you're bringing them, you know, an experts take on the matter, uh, Tim Ferris and other people, all the people that listen to Tim Ferriss, you know, his ads are not really ads they are. And I know, because I used to, I was the COO at 99 designs. We were one of the very first sponsors on Tim's podcast.It was the best acquisition channel, like of everything we tried, you know, because. The audience overlap. One was just really, really strong, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs and a lot of people that are launching the business and want logos and t-shirts and things design. But also Tim had used our service to design the cover of his second book, so he could speak so authentically about how amazing it was to wake up every morning and see new designs coming in from all over the world.And as a result, you know, like the ad that he had for nylon designs was just, you know, uh, a wonderful way to introduce them.Bryan: I only remember it it's been, it's been awhile since I've listened to Tim Ferriss. I mean, I'm definitely a, a heavier listener in my twenties, I think is the best way to describeJason: that.But across all of his heads, That's why people are tuning. They want to know what Tim Ferriss users, he communicates what he uses.Bryan: He wrote about stocks. I think it in the backlash you got from it, like, um, like legitimately I bought me on these because of him when I still travel. And I like take one of my dress shirts, uh, which I rarely wear anymore.But when I do, and I think about it and it wrinkles, I'm just like, ah, Mizzen and main. That was like the one he advertised for. Oh, that says it never wrinkles, but I like. I never bought it, but I still, it's still associated in my head and you're super right. It's that endorsement, but I don't envy the world of direct to consumer.I'm very fortunate that everything I'm doing is B2B. Like I'm in a, I'm in a subset of a subset and it's, it's fun. And I'm carving out an area here, but those of you that are like endorsing dog food and beds and, and like things like that to like your listeners who could be anyone. Wow. Like I give you all the credit in the world.People listening to this right now are like listening to this and I'm talking about super CAS. I'm a user of super cast. You guys are a sponsor. It is killer. Hopefully you're listening to this on the super cast feed, if not sounds profitable dot super And I highly recommend it. I'm having a blast using it.And I hope that works there, but I give so much credit to people like Tim who are able to take these things and really passionately sell them too. Anyone who tunes into, because even if it's the first thing you hear and you don't know him, He's passionate and it's soJason: cool. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, he brands himself as, I don't know whether he still does, because like you say, it was kind of back in my early, late twenties, early thirties, you know, tuning into most of his episodes, but you know, he brands himself as the human Guinea pig.Yeah. You know, I think you could almost have those words came out of y'all from it for ourBryan: forecasting scent, but that's, I think that's, what's really important. And I'm so glad you joined me on this today, Jason, because like, I think that if you think your podcast is like super buttoned up and it's like real professional, like yeah, I get it.Like if you're listening from NPR, PRX or, you know, anybody massive via calm, I I get it. There's probably a little bit more rigidity into what you're doing, but if you have a little bit more control over it, just be honest with your listeners about what you're going to test out and be transparent and let them know your goals.And like there's a reason that listening to you and yeah. Listening to the, uh, the more sterilized version of what you're doing. There's a reason that they're not reading a book or an article or watching TV instead of engaging with you. And a lot of it has to do with how you present it. So I think that.A lot of room for experimentation. I think people are scared, but I don't think there's any reason to be. I think that we need to, to innovate and the people hands down, like hands on innovating are going to drive better results for the whole industry. You're going to show people what does, and doesn't work.The trends and stuff we're reporting on are what is tried and true that people continue to do and are great. But eventually they're gonna run. Or eventually people are going to get used to them. Eventually there's going to be too much congestion on that. So everybody listening, create a premium feed, figure out what it is, whether it's free, whether.It's paid, whether it's a, just a tip bucket, Hey, we're not going to do any additional content until we get 500 people who sign up for our premium feed. And then from that, the money in that will be extra episodes, which we'll give early to the people who subscribed, but then there are available for everyone.There's a weird, not weird. There's a beautiful. Creator supportive mindset in the world right now where people want to feel included with their creators and want to support them. I absolutely personally paid for a substantial amount of things lately, where it's just like, Hey, if this is funded, this thing becomes free.You just get it first or you got a print copy of it or whatever the case may be, but I want to make this free and I just need support to make it. Um, I love that. I love the trends. Yeah. AndJason: look, we were just having a blast, honestly. Giving podcasts, isn't giving creators more tools to be able to do this experimentation.And, and, you know, I've already intimated that, you know, private feeds themselves being used in a variety of different ways, but we're behind the scenes. And I think you've started to play with us as well. You know, we're just, we're just having fun, pushing the boundaries of what you can even do with a podcast feed.You know, I talked a little bit about that one-to-one relationships. So we have one feed for every. Unique subscriber and yeah, and it's called level. That means we know who each individual is and we can get in-depth analytics. So I literally like who's listening to what, from a security perspective, it also means that you know, of Brian, where to go and share his private superclusters feed on Reddit.Then, you know, we can detect that automatically and just shut it down too many, too many CDs, too many IP addresses, not possible. We've shut it down. And, uh, everybody else, you know, continuously. But then I think that the really interesting part is content personalization, a hundred percent, right. In the world of public podcasts.Everyone's feed is identical. You know, you see the same 300 episodes in exactly the same water. Uh, and I think, I think you've got a new member welcome on your free do. Yeah. Yeah. So when somebody signs up, um, now. Uh, you know, you can, uh, through super cast because we know that person just signed up. They haven't listened to anything before, uh, and we know their name.We can eject, you know, a new mobile welcome, uh, recorded in your own voice at the very top of their feed. So it says, you know, um, you know, thanks for sorry. You know, Brian, uh, and, and of course you then hear a message welcoming into experience, you know, again, you know, thanking Benlysta for their support, uh, and maybe it's, you know, suggestions of what they should listen to first.And we've even got. Beyond that and to creating a drip sequence. So you'd, now you're starting to see yeah, a little bit of like, kind of like what you can do with MailChimp. Come into the world of audio and being able to create a curated sequence of first day. They get this fifth day, they get this 10th day, they get this 15.Tell you, they get this. And, and now, you know, the mind boggles when it comes to courses and onboarding sequences and just all the kinds of things that you can experiment with you take a more structured view.Bryan: Podcasting doesn't have to be public podcasting. Doesn't have to be something accessible to everyone.Marketers need to understand this and dig into this because that drip campaign thing is actually like really important, right? Podcasting feels like where email did when it was just like, well, if I send something out once a week, it's going to work. Right. And it doesn't matter. And hopefully they'll catch up the idea of being able to drip out specific content, the idea of being able to change and configure it based on how they respond or what they listened to RSS manipulation.Based around marketing needs and reactions from listeners engagement, downloads, whatnot is where we're barely scratching the surface of it. And my biggest suggestion to you is that if you have any interest in it message the guys at super casts. Bug them about your feature idea. They are incredibly responsive, especially if you've got something cool that you want to try, and there's a valid, valid build case around it.We have not even begun to scratch the surface of what you can do with RSS manipulation and drip campaigns and treating podcasting as a marketing funnel. And I think that super CAS is, is doing a killer job being the first people scratching at that. So I'm so excited to be working. And I'm really excited for all the cool projects we're going to release together.Hopefully.Jason: Yeah. Likewise, likewise. It's yeah. It's been a blast working with you. You, you have some pretty out there ideas, which he loved to bet around and, and pretty persistent on top of that too. So, yeah, it's been fun. Well,Bryan: thank you so much for joining me. I'm sure I'll have you. Awesomeand stick around for some special bonus content. At the end of the episode, I've teamed up with Evo Terra to give you a minute long strategic thought that is guaranteed to shift your perspective on the present and future of podcast. As we all work to make podcasting better. Thanks to Jason for coming on and talking about my article a sound's profitables premium blend.If you liked what you heard and want to connect, you can find me Brian Barletta on LinkedIn, way less formerly on Twitter as high five RPG. And of course you can email spelled. The most important part about sounds profitable is providing you with more resources and making sure that I can answer your questions.So check out the link to YAPA in the episode description and leave me a message. And with your permission, I'll answer it live on the show. The sound's profitable podcasts and all the cool ad tech, the bells and whistles you've experienced, where thanks to our host and sponsor everything you've heard since the conversation ended was uniquely created to target you using their dynamic ad insertion.If any of the call-outs were wrong, let us know this sounds profitable. Podcasts would not be possible without the help and support of Evo, Tara, James Cridland, and Ian Powell. Thank you all for your help and support. .


 2021-07-25  28m