The Amp Hour Electronics Podcast

Show notes

• Listener points out Dave said to slap him in Episode 255 if he ever said he was getting a pick and place. Dave stated as much in episode #610
• Dave posted a bunker tour and clean up video on Odyssey
• 10 cent micro showed up to Chris’s lab (discussed in #610)
• The tooling has a windows focus, the toolchain is called MounRiver. There is some OpenOCD tooling specifically for it.
• GitHub repos open a web based VScode window when you hit “.” (period). You need to be logged in.
• Discussion on embedded.fm 435 about GitHub codespaces
• Christmas lights
• Arduino is targeting the industrial market with the Opta “microPLC”. They will have ladder logic for this device.
• John Davis was on episode 385 talking about the difficulties of working in a machine building environment.
• A new part from Sony/Altair, the ALT1350, looks like it has EVERYTHING in it: Cellular, GPS, WiFi (hotspot finding only), 2.4GHz / 802.15.4, sub Gig. So many radios!
• Lock teardowns
• Artemis
• The Grid (book)

Automated transcript

00:19.99
Dave
Welcome to the amp hour I’m Dave Jones from the EeV blog

00:24.37
chrisgammell
And I’m Chris Gammell of the slapping industries because I am supposed to be slapping you.

00:30.24
Dave
Well oh I know what this is about right? Thank you to the person who put this on who do who did who put it on the silly lie and yeah, thank you very much got the most up votes. Yeah, go ahead. Do it do it. Although I haven’t technically got 1

00:36.26
chrisgammell
Ah, five days ago yeah this is this this silly lion.

00:43.43
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay here we go here. We go ladies and gentlemen in the light of last week’s episode I just wanted to say that in episode number two fifty five at timestamp Fifty Six Twenty Dave says that quote.

00:47.77
Dave
So you know and.

01:00.31
chrisgammell
You ever hear me utter. The the words I’m contemplating getting a pick in place just you know slap me. Thank you and happy holidays. Fantastic! What a great callback? Yeah yeah there we go all right? all It’s okay, yeah.

01:07.57
Dave
Ah, ah, ah or cheese and ah oh I think I’ve come to my senses I well was I thinking. Ah oh boy. Yeah, um, so yeah, so trust some nerd to remember.

01:20.52
chrisgammell
And yeah, well I mean that’s I have to wonder like were they just now listening were they to listen to it recently or they have like photographic memory. Yeah, right, Very impressive.

01:25.78
Dave
Right? Remember Well did they actually pull that out of their memory bank I wouldn’t surprise me if they pulled that out of their memory bank because I can still say oh yeah I can remember that in in you know, an episode ah episode and a copy of.

01:44.83
chrisgammell
And yeah, yeah, it probably means that they they they had something in their memory that they they’re like yeah I really would like to see Dave slapped.

01:45.10
Dave
Electronicks Australia Magazine back in 1985 there was this article that said blah blah blah blah blah you know like I can probably pull that out of my ass. But.

01:57.77
Dave
Right? Slap me right? Yeah possibly Yep yep I don’t know I’d like ah I don’t know what triggered it I don’t know.

02:04.26
chrisgammell
Ah.

02:09.15
chrisgammell
What the the urge to get a I think it is completely natural I Think here’s here’s the thing the ah the I think the journey often goes like this.

02:10.15
Dave
The ah the the lust for a pick and yeah, the urge to get a pick and place machine I don’t right.

02:21.58
chrisgammell
Ah I’m so frustrated if only I could just build you know like ah these boards are taking so long to build if I’m sending them out or they’re taking so long to build if I have them in-house. All I just needed is some robot to do this. It would be so easy if a robot would do this and the answer is yeah of course it would if it was perfect but it it just sucks you know like even you know even the ones.

02:26.95
Dave
There. All right? and and then you start realizing that it’s oh it’s only five bucks a board to get your board assembled or whatever right insert symbol here like and insert your assembly figure.

02:41.15
chrisgammell
Yeah. Sure sure yeah.

02:48.61
Dave
There right? Yeah, but let’s just say five bucks to assemble aboard you go like well how do you justify $10000 pick and place machine and all the infinite amount of time and energy required to run it and massage it and maintain it and pull your hair out and learn it and you know and.

02:56.98
chrisgammell
Yes.

03:03.51
chrisgammell
Yeahp I think it’s it’s really that like the idea of like the drop of the hat you know I always talk about like the 2 a m problem and like if you had a thing at 2 am yeah you know like this would be super super useful, but most people I feel like do not have that and the ones that do you know.

03:06.68
Dave
Yeah, right? yep.

03:20.10
Dave
Yeah, oh yeah, of course well I think part of my motivation is that it would and part of the inspiration is that I think it might motivate me into doing actual designs and getting them assembled.

03:21.50
chrisgammell
It’s probably faster cheaper to just pay for overnight service like from a actual assembly house. So I think it’s.

03:37.50
chrisgammell
M.

03:39.21
Dave
Right? because I’ve if I’ve got the capability there I go oh here’s an idea for I could sell a couple hundred of these boards you know? and yeah, why not just do this and then just right.

03:41.56
chrisgammell
And yeah I I I don’t I don’t agree with that for myself I think that’s like the the buying a buying a treadmill in order to start running I think really I should just go outside and start running. Yeah.

03:54.21
Dave
Right? Okay, yeah, yeah, you should just and do it but I’m sort of a bit and unusual Caseian I’ve got a large audience who will you know look if I came up with some little widget that you know I could probably like sell and distribute a couple of hundred of them. That’s that’s that’s no problem I think so you know.

04:00.40
chrisgammell
Sure sure I think.

04:09.41
chrisgammell
I’m sure you could yeah of course of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m not saying that I’m saying that you should if you were actually serious about that you should build 2 little widgets first. Yeah yeah.

04:13.85
Dave
Yeah I should build the widgets first and then and then figure and well maybe I should do that. Maybe I should build the maybe I should build a couple of widgets in anticipation of getting a pick and place machine right? And then I haven’t ready to go. Yeah.

04:24.64
chrisgammell
A exactly right? because and there’s always future ones too right? You’re going to. You’re going to do like variations and upgrades and stuff like that. So yeah.

04:35.48
Dave
Yeah, well well well straight off the bat I could get into remanufactory my um, my microcurrent or a variation of it. Maybe I can just do a new variant of that. But I’ve got a couple of ideas I just need the inspiration to spend the time on them to you know to actually get it done. So.

04:40.36
chrisgammell
Chair there here. Yeah, yep, totally right? yeah.

04:52.61
Dave
Yeah, and and I’ve got the extra room now to do it So that that’s another thing right? Well actually it pretty much I think it it was that no it was if you see my video. It’s um, over it’s on my Odyssey channel.

04:56.74
chrisgammell
Right? right? Maybe oh actually it’s full of stuff already.

05:11.23
chrisgammell
No, okay, that’s I haven’t in that yet. Yeah.

05:12.60
Dave
It’s an exclusive over there I think I don’t think I put it on my main thing. But anyway we have to link it in. It’s where yeah I actually cleaned up my bunker and I was so astonished at the amount of bench space I had and I went war I could put a desktop pick and place machine here if I wanted to you know and.

05:20.62
chrisgammell
Um, yeah.

05:27.14
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

05:31.90
Dave
And and then I actually started So that’s what like I and then I just grabbed my camera and I just shot a little blurb down there and that’s what that’s where the inspiration came from I think and and.

05:38.74
chrisgammell
That’s what started the whole thing. Why and so and actually there was an update on that right? So we had we had talked about it on the show and then you would also kind of kept going with it and then I think you had kind of figured out that like you don’t you don’t want to go with that machine that you had talked about on the show.

05:44.29
Dave
Yes, well.

05:52.34
Dave
No the kit. No, even though. Um, thank you the light place. Sorry I forget his name but um, yeah, he’s still making the light place and he did. He said if I if I wanted to actually do because the kit I’ve got is like 7 years old and so it’s not you know.

06:06.40
chrisgammell
Note this wasn’t the kit. This was ah you had talked about the the YYZ or something like that if you the need why I okay yeah.

06:11.70
Dave
Ah, all the ah why why one yeah the yeah yeah, no I no look there. There’s been discussion on the forum I’m involved in this forum 3 where some people are you know there’s like 3 or 4 people on the ev blog forum we’ve got one you know and like. There’s there’s 1 person saying look. It’s okay, it’s doing the job. You know I solved these problems but most people seem to think oh no, the feeders are really dicky and you know and then the last thing you want is feeders that a dicky right? That’s that’s the whole thing with pick and place machines is reliable feeders right.

06:45.58
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, totally yeah.

06:47.27
Dave
That’s that’s that’s that’s like the biggest grief with a pick and place machine. It’s not that you got to spend the time to programmer you know, look that’s you know, easy easy peasy right? Yeah, no, but that’s but that’s you got to do that with any you got to do that with any machine right? But the differences between machines are in how reliable is the pick and place.

06:53.18
chrisgammell
But that’s that’s something. But yeah, it’s not as much right? Yeah yeah.

07:06.46
Dave
Stuff how reliable is the vacuum system the feeders, the pulloon the tape back and you know doing all the rest of it right? Can you just set it up and go and come back and you know you’re a thousand parts are done orchi or do you have to sit there and massage the damn thing you know. So yeah and like yeah, there’s just too many reports of.

07:07.48
chrisgammell
Ah, yeah.

07:12.72
chrisgammell
Um, yeah.

07:17.59
chrisgammell
Right? yeah.

07:25.96
Dave
Of dicky feeders these friction These are three D printed by the way they’re three D printed feeders. So as I think you spotted on the previous podcast. You actually see and you saw the image and you went Oh they’re they’re being three D printed. No, apparently they’re three D printed. Yeah so.

07:30.28
chrisgammell
Interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah I looked I looked at the photos at least but that could have been promotional or early photos versus production. Yeah, interesting. Yeah.

07:45.26
Dave
Yeah, which is fine if they work right? But yeah nah anyway, um, an update from the previous show when we talked about is I did actually put a bid on on a local used machine. Um, and it came with 44 yamaha feeders.

07:48.96
chrisgammell
I guess.

07:57.89
chrisgammell
No interesting. Oh Wow. Okay.

08:04.72
Dave
Right? It was like like it was yeah it was the real deal right? and it was a desktop one and I would have had to drive to canberra to get it but fine. Okay I could do a road trip right? to get it and you know and um, a rent a Ue yep and well actually I did actually check.

08:10.93
chrisgammell
Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, rent a Ute.

08:22.90
Dave
The I car I did actually measure the car and it might have just fitted in the car. It’s ah it’s more of like the awkwardness because it weighs like one hundred and ten Kilos so it’s more like the awkwardness of trying to like slide it in there and you know stuff like that. So it it it? Yeah, so well don’t care about that. It’s an old car but you know, um.

08:25.77
chrisgammell
Oh okay I know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, not hang up the car to ah at it.

08:41.43
Dave
Yeah, so we weren’t yeah so it it would have actually fitted the problem is getting it anyway. I could have figured out the transport right? And so I unfortunately I should have hit the buy it now button. Okay because the guy like there was a make an offer thing so I went. Oh yeah, I’ll make an offer So I made a you know quite a generous offer on it.

08:51.31
chrisgammell
Me.

08:59.50
Dave
Um, but it it was below the selling price. So I waited for the guy to get back to me and then he didn’t get back to me and then the it it just vanished the actual ebay listing just vanished right? So um I contacted him said hey yeah, what’s going on you know and he said oh no, we decided to keep it. It’s like oh damn.

09:08.14
chrisgammell
Yep.

09:17.94
Dave
So even even if I hit the Bowat now button and like paid for it straight away I think he would have re-nigged on it anyway. So you know anyway, yeah, and and that yeah it was a use machine. Um was it the charm high or something which yeah I know they got a bad. Oh no, it’s some variation you know it.

09:19.59
chrisgammell
Yeah. Yeah.

09:36.47
Dave
It is one of the chinese ones but it’s one of the better ones. But yeah, like but but but it uses yamaha feeders right? So it’s one of the ones. Yeah, and okay and it came with like forty yamaha feeders for goodness sake. So I’m like like and it was only like 3 3 grand or something.

09:37.35
chrisgammell
But then yamaha feeders Interesting Interesting. Yeah.

09:48.18
chrisgammell
And maybe you should just ah contact that person and just be like hey you want to build some boards.

09:53.96
Dave
Yeah, right? Well ah well I’ve already got my assembly guy up the coast. You know I’ve already got my assembly guy for what board assembled you know? So so’s no problem. Um, hey I’ve got one I’ve got one in the business park here. There’s an assembly house in the business park here. You know I can just walk.

09:55.56
chrisgammell
And come down I can do some videos and yeah may okay, they go? Yeah, Okay, sure sure. Okay. No there you go Boom done. Okay, So what’s the problem here Man just go talk to that person again.

10:11.63
Dave
Down the road and have my boards assembled. It’s not the same. You know what I’m making myself Anyway, yeah so um, yes I was all hyped about that.

10:19.58
chrisgammell
Okay, well.

10:24.58
Dave
And was all ready to go. You know I was planning my trip I was checking out you know, ah you know prices to hire utes and stuff that you know I was like I was going to go yeah know and like I was happy to pay the original price like if he wanted to haggled on the price I would have paid the full price right? And um, yeah, and he just know Damn it.

10:38.92
chrisgammell
Um.

10:43.48
Dave
So that one fell through and like and they’re so rare here. That’s the problem right? Yeah, yeah, well you can buy secondhand pick and place machines here, but you get them through like there’s 1 or 2 big dealers and no, you’ll be paying 20 grand for one so you won’t be able to get like a used desktop one for.

10:45.16
chrisgammell
And yeah, yeah I think that’s the thing they haven’t been imported right.

10:56.30
chrisgammell
Um I see oh.

11:02.88
Dave
You know under 5 grand no isn’t gonna happen. So this was yeah rare as hens teeth, especially one with that many feeders and I think they were genuine yamaha feeders. So who you know anyway. Ah boy I don’t know whether I should just go for it and yeah.

11:12.95
chrisgammell
If yeah. Oh well, there goes that dream I think you should just build some honestly you should just build something I think you got to you got to get those muscles flexing again you know think about it like the gym right? This is your couch to five K but it’s a couch to building this all icon of widget. Yeah yeah I like build something like.

11:22.56
Dave
Yeah.

11:29.54
Dave
And bill as in build something or actually design a product you talking to build build in right.

11:36.76
chrisgammell
It all the way through get it all the way through to a a yeah you know of actual build product. No I think you should I think you should hand place it I think you should feel the pain. Yeah I think you should I think that I think this is an important.

11:39.70
Dave
But using my own using my own pick and place machine. You think I should just buy 1 and just try and no I don’t want to hand place the bloody things anymore. No no screw that.

11:56.36
chrisgammell
Important thing because it also gives you you know you could do. Basically if you hand place your first set of boards is basically you have about 6 hours or however long it takes to hand place the first couple boards or board or two whatever that is when you’re dreaming up all the dfm things because you’re going off fuckinging.

12:05.15
Dave
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

12:12.56
chrisgammell
Why did I make this such a small resistor. You know like this is like the best way to do Dfm is to experience the pain of of your design decisions I’m saying a new thing I’m not saying I know that you’re talking about building the old thing I’m saying build a new thing.

12:17.43
Dave
I Dude I’ve I’ve already done that I’ve already done that many many times and using why it’s the same pain. The pain doesn’t feel anything different just because it’s a new design. What is its.

12:28.79
chrisgammell
You said you, you were saying the whole reason I wanted to do this sure it does. Yeah, it does it gives it gives you that that that new set of of grumbles that you know you can use to revise your design. You said that you wanted to do this.

12:35.54
Dave
So it doesn’t.

12:42.46
Dave
Right? So you’re saying the new the new set of grumbles is more valuable than the memorized grumbles.

12:51.29
chrisgammell
That’s right memorize grumbles. Well the memorized grumbles have probably already made their way into your design as you updated your your ah your microcurrent. But you said that you wanted to get a pick in place to inspire more design I’m saying you should just go and make a small design and then that’ll also.

12:53.77
Dave
Right? right? yep.

13:07.77
chrisgammell
You know kickstart the process you know.

13:07.91
Dave
Yes, right? Yeah, true true. All right in the meantime I’m looking out for a pick and place machine. So if anyone sees one? Um, yeah, and that that’s how I found the one that um one of my ah viewers Um, sent me an email.

13:13.44
chrisgammell
Okay, yeah I think that’s interesting. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

13:21.72
chrisgammell
Oh well.

13:23.41
Dave
And said hey check out this because the whole ebay hey ebay like watch this thing is all screwed up now. So it’s like I don’t know what they did do it but none of my watch list bloody work anymore. So yeah, if if you certainly if you know of 1 please email me? Yep yep.

13:27.90
chrisgammell
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, send dava a secretive message. Pick and place flies at midnight.

13:46.53
Dave
Because if if if 1 pops up I will nab it even if I don’t have a design ready to do it and then where’s to put it right because I originally might might my bunker which is in another part of the business park right? I I can walk there but you know it’s like.

13:50.89
chrisgammell
Got it? yep.

14:04.80
chrisgammell
Sure sure Sir now.

14:05.90
Dave
I’ve got to get off my Ars and walk there right? whereas my dungeon is downstairs and so I’m thinking. Ah no, maybe I can put it in the dungeon downstairs because that would be easier. You know I can just go downstairs and you know? Yeah yeah, so I think that might be better.

14:15.82
chrisgammell
Um, yep, well while you procrastinate buying a pickin place I am procrastinating digging into this this chip that we talked about on the show I think maybe the last time as well. I finally I did get the boards in the ¢10

14:23.32
Dave
Ah.

14:33.20
Dave
No, mine’s mine still I have to check my P O box but no mine must night hasn’t turned up yet. So no must be on the slow boat goodzunai. Yep.

14:33.11
chrisgammell
Risk five chip. Do you get yours yet somewhere somewhere in the eeth ether. Yeah yeah, the ah the board maker is Quizzin The Tech Q S Z N T E c.

14:51.16
chrisgammell
But the reason I’m holding off is because there’s only ah I had figured stupidly I didn’t look at this software tool chain because of course I Why would I um I had figured there was like a gcc port. For this thing you know I thought I was going to be able to like ah you know, pull down some open source tooling and get it going? No ah no, that’s not how it works. There’s basically.

14:51.40
Dave
Ah, ah.

15:09.89
chrisgammell
1 ah moon river I think it’s called M O U N River Moon something moon um and ah, it’s like ah eclipse-based windows windows only ide and there is a risk 5 compiler that targets this chip specifically. But there’s nothing else. That’s it. That’s all you get.

15:12.19
Dave
All right Morn river.

15:20.95
Dave
Right.

15:28.69
Dave
Ah I could have sworn. They mentioned a gcc compiler on that page. We mentioned last time but okay, ah.

15:29.48
chrisgammell
Basically so.

15:35.69
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, or maybe it’s just not out in the I don’t know all I’ve seen so far for it and you know it’s been limited I found like a channel out of Brazil who was doing some stuff with these parts and um.

15:38.85
Dave
Brought.

15:50.58
chrisgammell
Not much else. There’s there’s not much in the internet about it yet. So it’s at guy in our show talking about it and then the the the cnx page where we is announced. Yeah, yeah, so I’m sure I’m sure there’s going to like I saw saw a bunch of people talking about buying these parts when when it was announced on Cnx.

15:51.63
Dave
Right? Okay, is it and that’s entirety of the internet talking right? Got it boy.

16:10.38
Dave
Yep.

16:10.40
chrisgammell
Um, the the blog. So I’m sure we’re going to see stuff soon. But I’m not exactly ah you know a bleeding edge kind of person myself Dave when it comes to firmware. So I got to.

16:15.94
Dave
Yeah, well well, that’s the thing before I mention the ¢3 pudu microcontroller it was like well there there was nothing out there on it. You know and then all of a sudden. Well everyone knows that there’s these.

16:26.50
chrisgammell
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, is there more tooling around it now too like I think that’s really the key thing when it starts to open up on tooling side.

16:32.84
Dave
¢3 microbes and they’re starting to use them and you know yeah.

16:42.46
Dave
Or I think yeah there was a oh it’s been so long since I’ve worked on it now. Um I was going to get back into it recently because I’ve got my I’ve got a project series that I’m working on which is the bomb timer thing sorry not a bomb timer.

16:55.42
chrisgammell
Oh yeah, right? Not a bomb. Not a bomb. Not a bomb. Okay.

17:00.20
Dave
Ah, was probably going to shoot part 3 of that today maybe but part 4 of that might be um, ah actually get in a ¢3 micro to actually control it. So yeah, yeah, because ah part three will be like showing.

17:12.70
chrisgammell
Ah, there you go cool. Yeah yeah I.

17:19.86
Dave
A design that requires like 20 ttl chips or something to actually do it and I can shrink those 20 yeah ttl chips into one three cent micro so yeah

17:23.94
chrisgammell
Um, oh right? right? right? yeah.

17:29.45
chrisgammell
Great yep cool. Well, that’ll be that’s there. There’s your there’s your first there’s your first product man that not a bomb timer kit. Um, ah.

17:40.39
Dave
I Don’t think anyone wants a not a bomb time a kit. Ah oh boy Yeah, right, get a knock on the door by people in sunglasses. You know, yeah now. Ah now boy.

17:44.83
chrisgammell
Even if they do I don’t know if you should tell it to them.

17:51.66
chrisgammell
Yeah, ah, no yeah, yeah, no, it is it I mean it is interesting seeing like what’s out there though like this and I should really know the name of the the part I think it’s RV 32 maybe even know how I find it.

17:56.92
Dave
All right.

18:08.36
Dave
Like aren’t yeah.

18:08.43
chrisgammell
on on here is it this came from New Jersey somewhere oh there it is is it? Oh it’s it’s a CHCH 32 that’s what it is CH 32 because it’s done by so WCH is the company out of China. So.

18:21.23
Dave
Got it? Yes, yes, that’s right? Yep anyway I’ll do a video on it when my kit comes in I’m sure I’ll you know do a hello world or something and see if I can Toggle some pins now. Okay, not right.

18:28.29
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah.

18:34.31
chrisgammell
Cool encourage people to make open source tooling. It would really help me out. Okay.

18:41.90
Dave
And right some nurdle ride a gcc port is ah gcc the main 1 or are there others. Yeah there there other are open source c compilers.

18:44.23
chrisgammell
Yeah, sure bingo.

18:53.20
chrisgammell
Are the other compilers. Um, Lll Vm I believe is one as well is that right? lvm? Yeah, maybe that’s not the compiler itself. Maybe that’s just the stuff around it.

18:58.72
Dave
Brought.

19:07.37
Dave
Okay, not cober, not right? Let’s just stick with Gcc yeah, right? okay.

19:10.47
chrisgammell
Yeah, um, oh clang is another one I guess I don’t you know, mostly like I said I’m I’m just using other people’s stuff. So yeah.

19:23.93
Dave
All right I’ll encourage people to do a gcc port just for just for you. So yep, no worries I did install linux the other day. Yes I installed dbn 11 yep.

19:26.70
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, thanks! Thanks! Dave.

19:36.67
chrisgammell
Really tell me about that. What for okay onto ah just to a computer a desktop.

19:43.10
Dave
Which a onto an old dumpster ah computer. Yep old dumpster dell at the request of my um it Penguin Um, yeah so I’m going to set up a yeah, a local mirrored.

19:53.78
chrisgammell
Is it.

20:01.43
Dave
Secure backup for my server so that’s the plan. Yeah.

20:02.24
chrisgammell
Yeah, okay, that’s good idea so little like kind of just sip down data and have have a local copy if things go really long. Yeah yeah.

20:09.98
Dave
Yes, it has have a local copy I mean I it’s already style stored on 2 different locations but you know I don’t physically have it myself so you know yeah I thought yeah so um, and and and because it’s all ah secure he said like he can’t do it.

20:20.89
chrisgammell
Yeah, it’s interesting.

20:26.23
Dave
Outside of a secure server because that breaks all the security of his automated backup systems and everything right? So that’s why yeah he said if you install dbn Eleven then I’ve given him backdoor access to dbn Eleven um this box So then he can set it up and configure it and yeah.

20:28.10
chrisgammell
Oh got it? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah.

20:42.13
chrisgammell
Cool.

20:45.29
Dave
It’ll be Auto mirrored and you know one of those incremental backup things. So yeah.

20:48.23
chrisgammell
Yeah, it isn’t so so I’m doing a training on the fourteenth of December so I’ve been doing trainings in person I do want a supercon and now I’m doing 1 remote again and when I had people signing up for it I asked you know just like what is your operating system I asked what the parts they work on all all that kind of normal stuff. You’d think.

20:57.50
Dave
Now.

21:05.50
Dave
Right.

21:07.53
chrisgammell
You know, just kind of get a feel for what people and you know pretty consistently I’ve seen like 60 plus percent are like windows users for embedded and like I’ve been linux only for a year or 2 now and um I’m I’m okay with it. But I know that like the industry is still.

21:16.97
Dave
Yep.

21:24.58
Dave
That that that that doesn’t surprise me because you know people ask me oh what earn just she limiting I got no reason to use linux none like personally I got 0 right.

21:26.52
chrisgammell
Pushing forward with windows windows. First yeah.

21:31.57
chrisgammell
Yeah, well and that’s fine and like honestly it it. It is a It’s a personal preference too right? I feel like that’s such a big piece that people leave out is like it comes I think it’s like you know it’s what you’re using every day So like whatever you’re most comfortable with is great I’m actually just most excited that there’s. Cross-platform support in a lot of tooling now like vs code and even eclipse tools are often. You know, compiled for each operating system which is like that’s all I’ve ever wanted right? like I want people to have choice. Um, and I hope that each each saw you know it’s It’s a.

21:49.32
Dave
Right.

21:55.60
Dave
Oh.

22:04.83
chrisgammell
Burden on the software maintainers of course right? And like I you know I hear from the kaiket project about that but like but I think that that ultimately makes it more accessible everybody and you know there’s just you never know what’s going to be out there. Um, oh sure I mean yeah.

22:06.55
Dave
Nope.

22:12.64
Dave
Yeah, but people keep bitching on about bloody linux as in like I have to like like I’m like I’m doing it wrong I’m doing it wrong if I don’t use linux. It’s like no piss off right? No I be using windows for like what 30 years

22:22.69
chrisgammell
No, no, no, no no I think that’s I don’t think that’s right, Yeah, exactly.

22:32.30
Dave
It works just fine. Yes I don’t bother upgrading to windows eleven because why I don’t need to windows 10 has been working for how longs windows 10 been out right? It’s been working fine for like a decade right.

22:37.87
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, so but the thing I’m curious about though is like it seems like in the industry as well like that that is also like embedded tooling generally is still very windows focused and yet for a lot of the stuff that I.

22:52.23
Dave
Yeah.

22:57.17
chrisgammell
That I think about like people needing to do often I’m surprised that.

22:58.46
Dave
Yeah, because you’re in the because you’re in the Hobby Realm You know you’re in that sort of you know Realm really where where there’s a yeah, there is a rather large percentage of people dicking around with linux and you know all that’s their primary system. Yep.

23:06.54
chrisgammell
Well not for work.

23:14.88
chrisgammell
Oh oh, that’s why you’re saying I see it for the linux side. Yeah yes I see yes I think that um there is that but but what I’m asking though is is the the windows focus right? like like historically how did that become such a big thing. You know what I mean was it just the.

23:17.24
Dave
Right.

23:26.89
Dave
How do windows become a big thing.

23:31.23
chrisgammell
And I know windows is ah I know what windows was a big thing but I’m saying as the default tooling for many of the chip companies that are out there right? like many of the chip companies didn’t offer well windows. Yeah.

23:38.42
Dave
Because Windows is the platform. It’s like altium designer right? when like that that was originally on dos right? What do you go to after that you went to windows right? that was like that was it was the platform. It was the only platform right? really.

23:50.29
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I guess I guess if you’re trying to hit the biggest The biggest squath of people. Hu yeah sure. Yeah.

23:58.31
Dave
It was it was Mac and windows it was Mac and windows there was you know? Yeah Unix was around back then right? but now that was some obscure university thing right? Um, so no, you know it’s no windows was was the only. Was was the solid choice. It was the only choice really it was Mac or windows choose your choose your poison and Mac had its own. You know? Yeah of course.

24:16.65
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I guess I guess that makes sense from a you know like they would have wanted to target the biggest audience so then they would have felt like even if they even if there were benefits to having kind of like finer grain control on a command line basis like I don’t know if you’ve ever done any like.

24:30.88
Dave
No.

24:35.56
chrisgammell
Command line compiling windows is just very frustrating for me. It’s just like doing that from the windows command prompt is like yeah yeah, not for me. Yeah.

24:39.70
Dave
Well I have I’ve done some and yeah, no, it’s not yeah I know but you know that isn’t its thing That’s not its job I’ve I’ve had to do it because there are some people who just write Command line tools for windows right? Well for dos. It’s not really well.

24:51.40
chrisgammell
Um, yeah.

24:55.91
chrisgammell
Yeah, true. Yeah.

24:59.77
Dave
Windows is the operating I don’t know is dos still the underlying operating system. It’s like no, it’s not. It’s win. It’s It’s actually all based on win nt I think I think it’s.

25:02.12
chrisgammell
No I don’t think so yeah.

25:46.38
Dave
On a windows machine. Do you want fat which is the old school file allocation table dos right? Or do you want Ntfs right? which is nt which is windows nt file system. There is no windows eleven file system. There’s no windows ten file system. There’s no.

25:58.55
chrisgammell
Um.

26:03.52
Dave
Windows Xp file system right? It’s nt so it’s all based on the so the operating system itself is windows nt I think that’s what I’m getting at yeah I think it is but anyway, whatever.

26:12.13
chrisgammell
That yeah I don’t know I don’t know. Yeah it. So Anyways, I I think it’s um, I’ve made the shift I’ve been interested to kind of just I think some of it is like my personal you know, kind of bias on it just because I’m now working on linux stuff all day and So. Kind of looking back in my old self and and that sort of thing. So anyways, it’s It’s not like I said it’s not right or wrong. It’s it’s ah it’s just be what people prefer and like I said I I think it’s actually really great that all the chip companies are kind of they’re all producing tooling that works on multiple platforms I Think that’s the most important thing. So.

26:32.56
Dave
Huh.

26:45.93
Dave
Sure Yep, but you you are going to cop the less grief the less grief you are going to cop less least amount of grief If you have a windows if you only had to release one version you would release it for windows.

26:49.13
chrisgammell
Yeah.

26:55.24
chrisgammell
Um, least yeah yeah I think that’s right and and increasingly so I think a lot of the chip companies are moving to vs code versus eclipse as well. Which is.

27:03.71
Dave
Right? You’re going to have the least amount of grief. So.

27:12.32
chrisgammell
Ah, like vs code. It’s nice. It’s kind of busy. It’s like you know and but so is eclipse to be honest. So.

27:17.56
Dave
Right? Hey and vs code is that’s under linux as well is it? Oh yeah, yep yep I can see Yep yeah.

27:28.30
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, that’s cross-platform to work on macaclinus Actually the really cool thing I don’t know if if you’ve been on. You know I know you’re not in Github much. But if you if you go to a git Repo I’m sure you people know what’s coming if they’ve you’ve heard this before if you could go to ah a git repository.

27:36.21
Dave
A.

27:43.69
chrisgammell
Then you hit the the period key. It’s pretty cool. You should do that I me here. Let me send you a link I’ll sending a link in the chat here. Not sure. Yeah, okay, it’s in the chat. The yeah.

27:49.56
Dave
Github right? Okay oh I was going to go to my own github. But okay, you can send me a link send me link. Oh it’s in the chat. Okay, but we got 2 different systems going on here. Github.

28:04.80
chrisgammell
This works that’s not working you supposed to go to Repo and then you hit usually hit period. Maybe I’m doing this wrong. The the link I sent you is a repo. It’s a repository right? So that’s like a link to a bunch of code. Yep.

28:05.81
Dave
What do I do.

28:15.59
Dave
Where’s repo. Oh yeah, okay, right? Yes so I’m in here. Yes, now What do I do.

28:24.58
chrisgammell
Now you usually hit period and it should go. You have to be logged in Anyways, it should actually it actually pops up a vs code window in the browser as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I should have I should.

28:31.60
Dave
I hit period as in dot no nothing happens. Nothing happens. Sorry.

28:42.25
chrisgammell
Should have tried this ah should have tried this first. It’s supposed to open up a vs code in the browser. Yeah yeah.

28:45.55
Dave
Ah, what was supposed to happen visualize it for us. Oh okay, oh okay, well you would have to select a file first wouldn’t you no no yeah yeah.

28:56.45
chrisgammell
No, no, no, it actually like pops up ah like a you know vs code is like an Id right? So it actually pops up. Ah the file navigation on the left side. It actually pops up the code. Maybe you have to be enough like maybe you’re right? Actually maybe it does have to be a file.

29:01.49
Dave
Right? Yep, maybe maybe maybe have to be signed in hang on I’ll sign in. Oh yep, you have to be signed in setting up your web editor there you go? Yep, it did absolutely It didn’t even tell me.

29:16.86
chrisgammell
It’s 19 in. Yeah there you go.

29:20.75
Dave
Before like it’d be nice if you go oh and an editor will pop up if you sign in. Okay, right? E go okay that is pretty cool. Okay so I’m now into your goliath esp Thingama Bob right? And where’s your main.

29:25.18
chrisgammell
Ah, yeah, that would be good. Yeah yeah, yeah.

29:31.71
chrisgammell
Yeah I was just the first link that I had I mean so I was yeah.

29:38.33
Dave
Your main dot.

29:42.20
chrisgammell
Ah, um, my my my login’s still not working so I’m I’m getting authentication code like usual actually Alicia K chris over at embedded fm we’re talking about this as well. Chris is talking about the ah the workspaces thing.

29:43.48
Dave
Bloody components. There’s no main. Okay. Not okay.

29:57.55
chrisgammell
And it’s pretty cool because you can actually so like now you have ah a web-based ide right? So like you could do that sort of thing and then some of the stuff I’ve been working on I’ve been working on some containers where you could basically like install your entire tool chain into a container and then link that and use that on the github man.

30:00.85
Dave
Yeah, right.

30:09.30
Dave
Oh.

30:16.20
Dave
Right? So I’m actually in vs Studio at the moment am I vs code right? It’s web vs code because don’t because they own Github don’t they right? Yeah, okay.

30:17.25
chrisgammell
Nothing is working on my phone right now. Oh turn to.

30:23.97
chrisgammell
Vs code. Yeah, it’s like the web vs code. Yeah.

30:31.28
chrisgammell
Ah, Microsoft owns Github that’s right? Yeah yeah, but actually you can install this on your own stuff as well, right? So actually um, that training I mentioned I do I have like a web version. How to explain it.

30:34.50
Dave
That’s why it’s integrated right? okay.

30:47.34
chrisgammell
Basically all the tooling is installed on the server that I run and then you basically log into a browser like a desktop in the browser and then you can actually open vs code from in there as well. Which is pretty cool. Yeah.

30:52.82
Dave
Yep.

30:59.49
Dave
Ah, cool. Okay I didn’t know that that was that was pretty groovy.

31:04.66
chrisgammell
Yeah, so this is like a trend so like Github’s doing this. There’s another one called gitpod does this? um and there’s like all these toing companies. Where basically you you don’t just you know it’s almost kind of like how we’ve talked about like.

31:09.89
Dave
Rot.

31:13.42
Dave
Some of my codes on the lab. Some of my codes on Gitlab I Think yeah, it does okay.

31:20.63
chrisgammell
Oh gitlab. Yep so they have stuff as well. Um, and um, and so the idea though is that you actually like store your entire tool chain with your code. So you think about like the problem of not having your tools up-to date right? If you have like an old version.

31:30.57
Dave
Right? right. Yeah, yeah, of course. Yeah.

31:37.94
chrisgammell
An ide on your your laptop or something then you or you you you have to reformat your laptop and your code was built on this old stuff and it doesn’t work on the new version. You actually store all the tooling with your your code as well. Which is um, really great for like long-term stuff you know a lot of people say like oh I could just make a you know a Vm.

31:48.31
Dave
Got it? okay.

31:56.19
chrisgammell
And store everything in there and it’s like yeah you can do that. But that’s actually really like heavy because then you need to have like a whole windows image or linux image and basically all of the Ui elements in addition to just the compiler and you know the the tooling that pops out of it. So yeah, yeah, as it’s.

32:07.00
Dave
And okay, right? And okay I don’t know how to do it on my gitlab because I’ve got my micro supply code in gitlab and it’s I don’t know.

32:20.19
chrisgammell
Oh okay, yeah.

32:25.37
Dave
Well can I just do dot I can dot.dotworks yeah yeah dot works yeah hang on making review changes browser. Yep yep, source yep there it is main dot cpp. Yep yep, although it’s not as color syntax highlighted.

32:25.84
chrisgammell
Maybe yeah, Oh yeah, how nice the new Standard. Oh Cool. Yep.

32:42.70
chrisgammell
It’s pretty neat.

32:45.15
Dave
Like the one over on Git hub. Ah yeah, yeah, which is kind of disappointing. Although it’s got one. It puts the text in.

32:48.96
chrisgammell
It doesn’t detect that it’s a C plus plus file. Yeah.

33:01.93
Dave
Quotes it puts those in red but everything else is just in black. So ah.

33:06.30
chrisgammell
Ah, yeah, maybe it knows only certain extensions or something it’d be Yeah I mean you think you think they know that but you know yeah yeah.

33:10.90
Dave
Well, it’s CCPlus plus so cpp. Yeah, you would think it would Dan like yeah think you’d know it or at least do basic syntax highlighting. Um okay, cool cool bananas there you go I learned something.

33:21.42
chrisgammell
Yeah.

33:27.58
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so ah, Ollicia and Chris were talking about that on recent show and um, yeah, it’s pretty cool I mean so ah code spaces is like the github thing where you basically not only now when you upload your ah you know, basically your.

33:28.34
Dave
Excellent.

33:44.80
chrisgammell
Like a script file that basically says here’s you know, go install all of these prerequisites and then go install this tool chain you store that with your file but then it’ll also like rent you servers right? So basically you know like Microsoft also runs azure. Ah.

33:50.20
Dave
Right.

34:01.41
chrisgammell
Started by former guests Ray Azzi among others at Microsoft um, and and so you can basically like you could really juice it up. You can do it. You can throw like through to 32 cores at a compilation if you wanted to that sort of thing. So it’s pretty cool.

34:01.56
Dave
What’s that.

34:13.86
Dave
Okay, got it excellent all right? Yeah, that boring. No this is not the embedded and power. Sorry yep.

34:19.48
chrisgammell
Yeah, code code and stuff. I know I know. And yeah, it’s all right.

34:32.63
Dave
News Do we have any yeah, any other news.

34:38.58
chrisgammell
Oh I don’t know um in my life but no Christmas lights you were talking about you putting up Christmas lights. That’s that’s some news in my life I realize that is not what you were talking about. But.

34:40.99
Dave
They.

34:47.16
Dave
Yeah, ni. Well we were just briefly talking about this before the show. How if you wanted to automate your lights. How would you do it. It’s like how many off-theshelf solutions would there be for automating something like that.

35:05.54
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, there’s a there’s a lot more than you used to be. Yeah.

35:05.79
Dave
Dozens and dozens right? Yeah, ah you know it’s just and and there’s so many that aren’t there’s so many automated systems that aren’t even intended for that application. But you could certainly use them for that application right? and there’s and there’s just countless ones. How do you decide? which.

35:17.31
chrisgammell
This is.

35:24.36
Dave
You know system to use to you know I guess you just have to I don’t know pick one read the reviews on the Christmas lights forum so and get the costs. Yeah yeah.

35:28.92
chrisgammell
Read the reviews. Yeah yeah, personally I’m not to I’m not doing that my old coworker. Yeah I guess So yeah, yeah, yeah, right right? Yeah I yeah.

35:39.75
Dave
Oh no, this one sucks at so many issues with the drivers and I no it’s you know ye.

35:48.87
chrisgammell
It’s it’s it’s reached a fever pitch to like the fact that it is commercially available for a lot of people like my my old coworker back in my keyley days. So it must have been like 2010 it was like before a lot of the commercial systems were available. He built his all from scratch and like and like he had like relays and he was switching all himself and you know.

36:00.87
Dave
Yeah, right? yep and you use your own micro when you code it from scratch and yep yep, no I Yeah you totally wouldn’t do that now I mean there’s just so many? No no, no yeah so many.

36:07.90
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, totally yeah, it was no these days I Hell no no, it’s not worth it. Yeah I mean there’s so many systems that are out there in night. They’ yeah but it depends what you’re interested in the project for.

36:20.29
Dave
Yeah, know, but and you could use you use even any. Ah any of the off the shelf automated things National instruments you know automated I O cards and you know everything else right? if you wanted to spend an absolute fortune right? No but but I’m saying you could right.

36:28.97
chrisgammell
No god national instruments by god Dave. Yeah yeah, you totally could yeah, it would be really really expensive my goodness yeah install my old.

36:38.60
Dave
Right? Ah, but yeah, like you know there’s just so many systems like that.

36:46.40
chrisgammell
A B distributed control system work in you know, ah in ah in a control closet somewhere. And yeah I mean control some some big relays and just really really flop on the current. You know? yeah there you go. That’s right? yeah.

36:49.53
Dave
Yeah, no lader logic wasn’t there wasn’t this something coming ah was it Arduino released is that on the list is that what was that.

37:06.37
chrisgammell
That is on the list. Yeah.

37:07.22
Dave
It’ ah, that’s that’s where I saw it. Okay, it was on the list arduino released a now I’m going to have to find it now. It’s a programmable logic controller. So it’s a plc Arduino and Andwe and yeah, aduino unveils the opter the first micro. Ps.

37:16.98
chrisgammell
Yeah.

37:23.27
chrisgammell
Yeah.

37:26.39
Dave
Plc How is it the first micro Plc for the industrial internet of things That’s that’s got to be a bullshit claim come on.

37:29.21
chrisgammell
I Think no matter what they’re doing. There’s yeah that is that is definitely I mean I think it’s I think they’re saying size size. Maybe I don’t know maybe they I don’t know there’s no yeah so I’ve talked I’ve talked to aduino about this and I know some of the folks there and and they’re good folks I’m a little little confused about what they’re.

37:38.78
Dave
Ah, no come on. There’s got to be something 9

37:46.80
chrisgammell
You know? so I am glad to see actually that they’re they’re embracing later logic I Think that’s what you know they’re trying to go into this really industrial segment and I thought they were going to be asking people to do like Arduino coding and I was like that’s just not how people operate you know.

37:51.72
Dave
Yep.

37:55.60
Dave
9 I and yeah, the that’s what I thought at first I I I actually clicked on the link and I went please say you’re doing lader logic because otherwise it’s just a joke right? and sure enough. Yep, they have yeah.

38:05.55
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah I think I think it’s kind of like table stakes for if you’re getting in the industrial industry and like you know, whatever you feel about ladder logic. It’s like that’s just what is used and so yeah I don’t yeah.

38:14.85
Dave
Exactly to to control your lift. You know when when you get into lift and you hit the button and you know that’s what’s controlling your lift and other automated things you know and elevator. Okay, yeah, yeah.

38:27.58
chrisgammell
Elevator for all the the non aussies or Palms. Yeah yeah, ah you know and it is.

38:33.19
Dave
So yeah, um, yeah, so they support. Um, yeah, they support that they support functional block diagrams. Yeah.

38:40.31
chrisgammell
It is interesting and so like Arduino I think we mentioned back when they raised a bunch of money they raised a series b for $32000000 in bosh and so like them going into the industrial industrial sector doesn’t that starts to make sense then you know like it’s like oh bosh is also industrial. So like yeah, um.

38:46.17
Dave
She Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, a totally? Yes, oh yeah, no you you can get bosh Plcs you know yeahp I think you can I did I yeah.

38:57.42
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah yeah.

39:03.40
Dave
I think I used a bosh way back in the day bosh peel see are they still making ah seamens seem okay, yeah is Semens Bosh yeah Allen all Alllan Bradley’s the well that doesn’t popped up when I googled it. No, it’s okay, yeah.

39:03.65
chrisgammell
Yeah I don’t know. Yeah I mean Alllan Bradley and yeah siemens is not posh. Oh my gosh Dave somewhere somewhere half of Germany screamed out in pain. No, those are yeah I mean it would make sense to bring some of that now. So I I doubt they manufacture with their highest end facilities. You know they probably rebadge a bunch of stuff and that’s great and whatever.

39:21.85
Dave
Yeah boshboshmakerplcs um yep yep

39:33.11
Dave
On sorry to all you bosh Rex Roth fanboys the bosh Rex Roth ah yeah

39:39.26
chrisgammell
yeah yeah I mean that’s the thing like it’s it’s its own. It’s its own submarket segment too like it’s just you know so who was a John Davis my old friend from Cleveland he was on the show many many years ago talking about. Yeah he’s in the industrial sector he sells in in that sector a lot and like it’s just.

39:48.49
Dave
Me.

39:58.86
chrisgammell
it’s not ah it’s it’s basically like applied electronics in like very extreme scenarios. Um, but it’s not like what’s interesting is I think arduino is going to try and pull kind of more complex stuff into that space. Yeah, and then there is already complex stuff in that space. Don’t get me wrong. But I think they’re going to try and do it kind of an as an all in one like a shrunk down kind of version. You know because Arduino is doing a bunch of machine vision stuff and linux on things and whatever. Um, so 1 thing that’s interesting about the art. Ah the opt I think is a little bit smaller but a lot of the arduino stuff is is now like it’s beefy. It’s running like you know linux.

40:23.29
Dave
And.

40:34.98
chrisgammell
Like a linux plus on it. Cortex M seven you know so just like really really heavy duty stuff on there so it’ll be interesting to see where that falls in the marketplace.

40:36.20
Dave
Yeah, right? yep. M Yeah because people don’t realize how huge that market is right? unless you’ve worked in it like it is enormous. The the programmable logic and the programmable controls Market I Guess as is I think more of the correct.

40:54.14
chrisgammell
Um, don’t yeah.

40:58.95
chrisgammell
Yeah, yep.

41:02.85
Dave
Term um is just absolutely enormous it. It controls all your industrial robotics and it probably helped launch the latest Artemis rocket and you know like so yeah, like nobody does this with yeah, any automated factory yep, anything that’s moving stuff like that.

41:12.97
chrisgammell
You Yeah I mean every factory right? You think about any any kind of like any anything where stuff’s moving any yeah anywhere anything where there’s stuff switching. Yeah, it’s crazy. So yeah.

41:22.81
Dave
Yep yep, and there’s safety inter a locks and there’s and that’s all programmable logic controls right? Nobody has like a linux Pc controlling that sort of stuff right? It’s just no, they’re embedded programmable logic controls. Yep so.

41:31.55
chrisgammell
No yeah, yeah I think um, what’s interesting is I think there’s also a lot of Grand Loyalty like I can’t imagine you know like the.

41:40.89
Dave
Oh yeah, yeah yeah.

41:44.86
chrisgammell
Like when I imagine people so actually. Ah Jeff who I used to do the engineering commons with he was ah he’s a machine builder and like you know they kind of view my experience hearing about this. Not like that and I’ve never done this but like it does seem like it’s like you’re basically using these electronics as ah as a tool to just get the job done. It doesn’t matter.

42:02.44
Dave
Yeah, totally not.

42:04.56
chrisgammell
Like the you know the actual features you know and there’s not a lot of specsmanship type of stuff. It’s just can I get it can I get it at a good price and like do I understand how to use it already and so like I can’t imagine. Yeah yeah, and.

42:13.73
Dave
Well, you don’t even get it and like the good price thing doesn’t even factor into it really seriously. It doesn’t yep oh I’m sure there’s you know some areas where it might but generally no.

42:24.00
chrisgammell
Okay, yeah, sure sure Um, but I think about and.

42:30.10
Dave
It’s like what am I experience with what is the most reliable. What has never let me down. You know, right? Yep yeah.

42:33.80
chrisgammell
Yeah, right. Reliability is a big one too right? Yeah, totally and so I just think like Brand Loyalty is another thing where it’s like if you’re trying to break into that market. That’s another another tough piece of it where if you’re like even if you have a big brand name like Arduino You don’t have a big brand name in the machine space yet. So I think that’s going to be.

42:42.29
Dave
Yep yep.

42:50.59
Dave
Yeah, ah yeah, of course yeah, well was going to say they should have even ditched the arduino name like they’ve caught it opter have they is it the opter.

42:51.67
chrisgammell
Uphill for them unfortunately but we’ll you know we’ll see where it goes I hope I Hope they do Well you know like you said is a huge market. Oh interesting. Yeah I think that’s the product name. Yeah.

43:06.80
Dave
The product name is opter but they’ve still got the arduino pro branding on there I think that is not a good thing for the industrial space. Um, yeah.

43:14.22
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

43:21.17
Dave
Anyway, yeah, for those who don’t know like yeah if you’re controlling robotics or something else. You know you control in your elevator. Um, and you know things like that you want to control your rocket launch and stuff like that. You don’t want to be dick like you do like you want this to work and you want it to work for decades right. This is not this is not something you control from a general-p purposepose computer right? because general-p purposepose computers a code bloated right? there. They’re not designed specifically for the task driver issues. they’ got update you know all sorts of right? Um, they’re just not designed for that task whereas they and whereas these are embedded. Modules that are highly ah, not only high high reliability but in terms of hardware but software the firmware in there as well. Their little mini operating system that they run in there and it’s it’s just you know it’s it’s highly vetted, highly optimized for. Like it. It is never going to write and and if if you buy a bosher an Alan Bradley programmable logic controller it’s never going to lock up right? Locking up is not a thing right? Okay, well, that’s bad programming on your logic and okay.

44:24.70
chrisgammell
hey hey I can get anything to lock up Dave come on bad code. Yeah yeah.

44:34.26
Dave
Right? You know it’s just no, right. It is not a thing right? and and then they’ll have fallback procedures like I was in the lift the elevator the other day right? and it and it actually went to the first floor when it shouldn’t have and it stopped there for a couple of seconds. It didn’t even open the doors. It just stopped there because that’s been programmed. In as the reset level and I’ve been trapped in in the liftft before right? you know? and um, yeah, it the system resets itself after a certain amount of time and that’s its default reset position. It always goes back to that and then clunk clun clunk. It resets itself and all the senses well and and.

44:57.88
chrisgammell
Um, and.

45:12.39
Dave
And a and it continues on right? So yeah, it’s like yeah, you’ve got the blue screen of death. Sorry um, you know it’s It’s just oh man.

45:13.49
chrisgammell
Yeah, better than better than having a reset state. That’s like now entering free free fall evaluating gravity. Yeah.

45:27.99
Dave
No, it’s just that these things are just super reliable. You know the worst thing you can do when you’re controlling stuff like this is to use and a general purpose Pc to do it doesn’t matter if it’s linux doesn’t matter if it’s Pc or something else. You know it’s like Nope you’re using the wrong tool for the job So there.

45:34.80
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:44.21
chrisgammell
If it.

45:47.54
Dave
Anyway, Program Logic controls. Great fun stuff. Um, all right.

45:49.48
chrisgammell
Yeah, it’s cool see how they do I’m not realizing how when is the last time we do the show together. It’s been a while right because I skipped I skipped for that. Oh that’s what it was I skipped from Thanksgiving and then I did a show last week. Yeah, yeah, so that’s been a while.

45:57.78
Dave
Now three weeks maybe yes yep yep. All right.

46:08.48
chrisgammell
On the list as well. So what else was we did that one. There’s nothing one I wanted to mention punch card. No we talked about that. Um, oh this new Sony part nobody upvoted this. But this thing is a friggin beast.

46:27.24
Dave
Right? Okay I know.

46:27.84
chrisgammell
Like literally nobody voted this up except for me. But you know what we run the show folks guess what we get to talk about what we want the Sony alt thirteen fifty I don’t even understand so it’s on the list as cnx link. So cn next is great blog to ah Jean Pierre Jean Pierre no

46:36.12
Dave
Now I’m looking at it. Yep I’m on looking at. Okay, once again, it’s internet of things folks. It’s internet of things alert warning on it.

46:46.70
chrisgammell
Um, Luke John Luke John Luke oh yeah of course it is yeah but here’s the thing this thing has here listen listen to all the things this this has cortex m four cortex is mzero plus right? So you could do like a little bit of you know, sensing detection and then you you know you have your main processor. It’s got It’s got a ah dual band um cellular mode in it. It’s got Gps it’s got a 2.4 Gigahertz eight two dot fifteen f or so you could do thread or ant or whatever the other stuff it or just raw 8 o two dot 15 that 4 it’s insane.

47:07.10
Dave
Now.

47:18.63
Dave
Um, yeah I’m looking at the feature list now. Yeah yeah.

47:24.70
chrisgammell
It’s also got a sub gig. So that means that basically so this is basically meant for like the smart Meor market which you know if you want to use it for that. Ah, but basically this thing’ going to be able to talk any of these things and it also has I think wi-fi but does it have wi-fi I think it has wi-fi for detecting location as well. Yeah integrated wi-fi ssd.

47:28.61
Dave
Got it? Okay yep.

47:43.93
chrisgammell
Ssd based location. So you know like your phone doesn’t normally get Gps readings to get like precise location actually gets it from hotspot like a hotspot database and seeing how close you are to other hotspots which is insane on in its own right? But it’s got all of this stuff. So this thing basically can tell you where where you’re in space I could talk to a bunch of different sensors.

47:50.80
Dave
Yep.

48:02.84
chrisgammell
And it can be an embedded device. It’s just it’s insane and that’s right, that’s right, that’s right? Yeah, so basically it’ll use the 2.4 gigas radio probably and then just you know listen for hotspots. But yeah, want wi-fi yeah, you know.

48:03.43
Dave
It It doesn’t have wi-fi generically as a wi-fi Interface. It’s just part of the location mapping thing right? Yeah, all right, got it. And it’s got a sick and it’s got a a secure element built in as Well. So wow.

48:22.73
chrisgammell
Ah.

48:27.98
chrisgammell
Yep yeah I think that’s going to be I will actually be surprised when chips don’t have secure elements built in in the in the near future I Think that’s the new de Rigo of of all of these connectivity things because it’s just.

48:34.21
Dave
Ah night. Okay, oh it doesn’t actually come from. Well it’s it’s a Sony part but it actually ah that looks like Sony bought and Israeli Company Cord Alta Semiconductor good stuff old tear. Yep classic. Um.

48:44.68
chrisgammell
All tear. That’s right? Yep Yep Yeah yep, yep yeah no this thing is this is this is a beast I mean like I’m very excited about this part. We’ll see when it comes out and how much it costs all the other stuff but like.

48:51.94
Dave
Yeah, so it looks like they they develop this Wow and all right, she’s.

49:01.32
chrisgammell
Basically the twelve fifty the one that’s before this is is this one of the smallest cellular motors you can get for for I mean it’s like like twelve millimeters by twelve millimeters like it’s insane. Yeah, like how small these things are getting so and that’s actually um, that’s um, that’s this chipset. But then in ah in a.

49:09.50
Dave
Right? Wow wow.

49:20.37
chrisgammell
Module from Marauda. So yeah, oh yeah, everything’s external. Yeah, the antennas are are big. Yeah I mean you could do like? yeah.

49:22.85
Dave
Right? That’s external antenna though right? That’s not internal antenna right night. Go because I I tore down something rees are the um I tore ah, the Bluetooth lock.

49:36.69
chrisgammell
Oh interesting for bluetooth? Oh yeah, yeah, oh on the chip. Oh oh Wow What kind of range did they claim.

49:37.45
Dave
I tore down the bluetooth lock here and that that used an internal antenna. Yes, it was on the chip right? It was on. It was on the chip. It was embedded on the chip. Yes, it’s all in one I got it’s. Fairly standard I thought I thought you you could get the ten meters or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was built onto the chip. Yes, yeah because I was like because it’s inside a metal can right? This is like a ah safe lock right? So it’s inside a metal a a secure metal. Can.

49:58.49
chrisgammell
Yeah, ah, okay, that’s great. Yeah, that’s on the chip. That’s it. That’s very impressive. Yeah I’ve never seen that? yeah.

50:14.10
chrisgammell
And.

50:15.49
Dave
And I figured Well how do they get the bluetooth signal out of the not only inside the can but the safe right? because it’s into so it’s ah so it’s a sta. It’s it’s it’s inside us. Yeah, it’s inside a stainless steel case. That’s inside a steel safe.

50:21.22
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, it’s a big metal brick. Yeah yeah, some somewhere an rf engineer is is weeping.

50:33.31
Dave
Right? But yeah, exactly exactly and I actually talked to the designer right? and I actually I actually talked to the designer. Yeah, he yeah phoned me up right.

50:39.36
chrisgammell
Don’t understand our ref.

50:45.69
chrisgammell
Um, yeah, yeah of course. Yeah.

50:48.18
Dave
And we had I unfortunately didn’t want to be on camera or whatever. But you know he didn’t want to be recorded. But anyway else I was talking to him for like ages and he said and like so I thought because it uses external batteries right? So the external battery. Is outside the safe because you have to change the batteries right? So I thought aha maybe they’re using the ground wire or the positive wire as a secret you know antenna that’s part of the Bluetooth antenna and he said nope it’s on the chip and sure enough when I did the teardown it’s on the it uses this all in 1 Bluetooth chip and and the antenna is built.

51:04.63
chrisgammell
Oh yeah, yep.

51:12.31
chrisgammell
Um, yeah.

51:23.15
Dave
Onto the chip. There is no external is no external connection. Yeah well, it’s but I don’t know how they do it inside the chip. You know I don’t know. But yeah it it. It could be like a separate layer with an actual antenna on top of the diee I I don’t know physically how they do it inside. But yeah.

51:25.57
chrisgammell
You’re saying it’s a Silicon Antenna Silicon Antenna That’s crazy. Oh so it might be a like ah like a sip like a um, ah okay, all right? yeah.

51:42.61
Dave
Yeah, it’s very cool and he said no we do we we don’t all we do is rely on the fact that it gets attenuated by an incredible amount and yeah have to be like thirty centimeters away from the safe for it to work but it works.

51:44.27
chrisgammell
That’s very cool.

51:49.15
chrisgammell
Yeah.

51:56.66
Dave
And it’s like okay and well of course you know it’s going to seep out like you’re going to have the ah rf actually jumping onto the ground and and positive wires and then coming out as sort of like a passive radiator kind of thing right? So there’s going to be some ah rf happening there right? But no, it’s it’s built on the ship.

51:57.67
chrisgammell
I Ah yeah.

52:07.29
chrisgammell
What you I got to look this up I’d like to see this actually so the which which reviews this all Dave’s gonna send me a link. Well I’ll just check it out later but that’s that’s cool. Yeah.

52:15.16
Dave
Oh okay, right? Um, yeah I Ah yep I will well okay I will save locks be out of safe locks. Yes.

52:29.53
chrisgammell
Yeah, ah oh and the last thing on this part is they say that it could talk to satellites which I’m very surprised about. But I think it’s a satellite connectivity which is like way to sending messages up to satellites I think the only thing that could possibly would be with that. Is if it’s running in like the ah the sub gig radio was doing like a chirp and talking up like there’s a bunch of stuff where like Laura there’s like Laura satellites now which is super cool but also hard to hard to fathom. You know the fact that like these little tiny chips are sending stuff up to the satellites. But.

52:51.26
Dave
Right.

53:00.40
Dave
Yeah. Okay.

53:05.49
chrisgammell
Cool I’ll take it all of the connectivity. Please thank you very much.

53:12.29
Dave
Ah, crazy stuff. Yep, a artemus is coming back tomorrow is it tomorrow. Yeah.

53:12.72
chrisgammell
Yeah.

53:19.31
chrisgammell
Oh yeah, yeah, you did you did a like a watch video thing for that right? I didn’t I didn’t see it live I think I was traveling. Yeah, oh that’s like next week as next week

53:25.14
Dave
Yes, yes, for the launch. Um I don’t know if I’ll do one for I and yeah, it’s come back on the sixteenth either or the nineteenth could be the nineteenth of December. It’s coming back and I think either yesterday. Or today don’t quote me on this I’ve been meaning to check I was mean to check before the show but it is the fiftieth anniversary of when we last set foot on the moon gene cernon last set foot on the moon. Yes I think it has been its fifty years right now.

53:48.73
chrisgammell
Oh interesting. Ah it sounds like they might be on purpose. They might have done that.

53:55.80
Dave
But yeah, so anyway, that’s very cool and who I have actually met by the way I’ve met gene cernon. He’s very cool. Yes I met gene cernan and he went to the moon twice not once twice. So yep, he went on apollo 10

54:00.70
chrisgammell
Oh really, oh cool. Wow Man can you imagine.

54:13.17
Dave
So we flew around the back of the moon did the whole dress rehearsal thing got down within 30 or five ks of the surface or something like that and then went back up and went. Yeah yep, everything seems to work and yeah.

54:22.91
chrisgammell
The the Moon’s there I saw it.

54:28.15
Dave
And yeah, and then Apollo Apollo eleven landed and then he commanded apollo 17 which was the last so he was like there and being being the commander. He was the first off and the last back on so he was literally the last man to set foot on the moon. So.

54:42.33
chrisgammell
Ah know well cool man. Yeah, it is kind of weird that it’s been so long like but it’s good. They’re they’re doing it again I Guess that’s a.

54:46.66
Dave
Yeah, hey there you go. So that’s been fifty years exactly I think and we still haven’t got back? yeah.

54:59.37
chrisgammell
Good first step much like Dave reentering the world of designing electronics. Ah we were once again going to the moon and we don’t do this because it’s hard. We do it because we like doing electronics.

55:00.31
Dave
Yep, ah.

55:06.88
Dave
Yeah, right? Okay, it’s my it’s my moonshot because we are nerds. Oh boy, Yep, not That’s all right need more Southern twang.

55:19.19
chrisgammell
Sorry for the bad Jfk accent. Ah.

55:23.99
chrisgammell
No, he’s from boston man the jfk yeah jfk was that was a Boston accent. Yeah, like really heavy Boston accent. Yeah.

55:24.65
Dave
You know is he is he oh he’s a Boston oh I thought he was slight. Okay, right there you go all right.

55:36.87
chrisgammell
Um, what should we? ah talk about the rest of the show. Oh you know what? I want to talk about I know the grid I Want to talk about the grid. So I’m almost done with the book called the grid. Um, ah first off I found out that I looked up the author I was like oh well maybe we should have her on the show.

55:42.84
Dave
Go.

55:53.80
chrisgammell
And then I found out. She’s actually an anthropologist versus I thought she was going to be like an electronics nerd. But and I think you know if you do that much research on the grid you are by default but she’s actually interested in like systems and how they interconnect us like oh that’s actually and so I would still be interested in talking to her but she actually finished the book in 2016 and she moved on other projects. But.

55:54.73
Dave
No, right right.

56:05.97
Dave
Ah, interesting. Okay.

56:11.11
Dave
No okay, right probably doesn’t yeah care anymore. Yep yep, right.

56:13.71
chrisgammell
Um, yeah I don’t know how much she talks about anymore. But anyways, it’s a great book. Um I am very curious about like the you know she writes in there. A lot about the like kind of the weaknesses of the grid system and just how things are changing um with renewables entering and this was.

56:26.15
Dave
A.

56:31.27
chrisgammell
2014 2015 she was writing about it came out twenty sixteen and so like and that’s just like skyrocketed in the meantime and yeah.

56:38.22
Dave
Oh look the the the problem with the grid is that we take her for granted right? and especially grid security I think Grid security is hugely underrated. Um, ah recently there’s been recent news.

56:41.61
chrisgammell
Oh totally? yeah.

56:52.76
chrisgammell
Ah, yeah, well given that about seventy miles from here I would you say seventy miles from here some some jackasses went and shot up a a substation. Yeah I mean it was like well I mean there’s not really a reason to do it. Ah.

56:55.42
Dave
Yeah, oh okay, it’s actually yeah I’m surprised that it’s taken that long I’m surprised like people haven’t done that before. No, there’s not but you know I mean I.

57:08.75
chrisgammell
But there are a lot of people that are bad actors I’d say and yeah, so yeah, from that perspective I agree with you that like it is surprising. There aren’t more attacks on it and just and the interconnectedness like and how it all ties together like you know so.

57:20.79
Dave
Yep, Well even from if you just even if you take out the humans out of the loop right? A solar flare could like really scraws I know they can detect those come in and they can do they can take measures. To sort of ah protect the grid I’d love to talk to an expert on that by the way. Um, that’d be yeah how to actually protect the grid if there’s a massive like Carryington event level grid right thing then? yeah I Want to know how well we’re actually protected.

57:41.12
chrisgammell
Yeah, like how to actually protect for solar flares.

57:52.30
chrisgammell
Um.

57:56.70
chrisgammell
Yeah.

57:57.94
Dave
So yeah, anyway I am my ah looks like the battery my backup battery things happening Hopefully that’ll happen this year. My home storage. Yes yes because ah fronnias have said that they’re yeah they’re going to send me a hybrid inverter. So.

58:07.30
chrisgammell
Um, you are oh interesting. Yeah.

58:14.77
chrisgammell
Cool. Okay.

58:17.29
Dave
Umm I’m going to have a yeah I’m going to have a fronia cybrid inverter and that hooks up unfortunately, it only hooks up to 1 brand of batteries which is the chinese e y d one which which is a great battery. They’re like the biggest storage manufacturer in the world I think.

58:28.87
chrisgammell
Um.

58:34.85
Dave
Battery storage manufacturing. Well so they’re really good batteries and I bet. Yeah, but there’s no choice right? It it only talks to those batteries right? So so I have to buy those. They’ve got firmware on them. Yeah, you’ve got to talk to the management system right of the batteries. You’ve got ah you know? Yeah yeah, so they’ve got to be firmware.

58:34.86
chrisgammell
Ah, ah yeah.

58:41.10
chrisgammell
Is because they have some kind of like firmware on them that you have to I see got it.

58:53.37
Dave
Have to be firmly supported. So yeah, usually when you buy a a hybrid inverter or any or a battery storage inverter system. It usually only works with one or several brands of batteries. You can’t just well yeah, you might be able to install just any kind of battery. But then the management doesn’t work and you know things like that. So yep, yeah.

59:09.88
chrisgammell
Yeah.

59:12.50
Dave
And then that’ll tie in with my solar analytics system as well. My solar analytic analytics system only supports one brand of Hybrid inverter for battery management and it happens to be fronnius so you know cool. Yeah, awesome. Um, so yeah, so hopefully that’s I will um.

59:21.12
chrisgammell
Ah, oh that’s good. Yeah.

59:30.49
chrisgammell
Um, yeah.

59:30.52
Dave
Actually straight after this I’ve got to email them and they said they’d send me one I went yeah beauty. Okay I’ll start ordering batteries and find someone to install the whole thing and put some more panels up and so I’ll have yeah a battery storage.

59:42.36
chrisgammell
Yeah I think I think after reading this book I think the the main thing I feel is just kind of like the the fact that we’re susceptible to you know like anything that the grid happens you know we’re all tied to get to this grid right? and anything that happens on there a normal outage. Whatever um.

59:54.37
Dave
Yeah.

59:59.96
chrisgammell
We’re just all impacted by it and obviously my entire likelihood is based on electricity not to mention my hot water and everything else you know like it’s just everything’s electrified and so it’s like yeah yeah, it’s everything. Yeah yeah, totally yeah.

01:00:09.28
Dave
Everyone’s is it’s not just your daily thing. It’s like if the grid goes down everything stops like transport stops right? You know? Yes, Okay, we’ve got some fuel you know to power the trucks. But how do the how do they pump the fuel into the trucks electricity.

01:00:23.36
chrisgammell
Right? exactly? Yeah yep, yep Yeah yeah, yeah, exactly exactly.

01:00:26.17
Dave
Right? I mean you know it’s like everything stops so you start starving pretty quickly right? if the grid like if like if there’s a solar flare that literally takes down the grid for a month we are screwed. We are absolutely screwed.

01:00:37.87
chrisgammell
Yeah, well. Okay, so so this we were you know we were talking about the you know, bad actor events and stuff like that and actually I just got to this part last night and I found it on my my my copy here. So here’s some of the numbers in 2014. There were 77 serious power outages. And the United States due to severe weather and that’s so so serious power outages not just like small things another 17 due to fuel shortages usually the supply result of supply chain problems like congestion on rails and 66 that were the result of physical attack.

01:00:57.40
Dave
Right? right.

01:01:08.34
Dave
Hang on fuel. How do the how do the fuel problems happen. Oh like Okay, you’re talking about coal. You’re not talking about substation right? Okay talking about right.

01:01:14.39
chrisgammell
Ah, like coal coal wasn’t delivered to a plant. Yeah, that’s right? Yeah yeah, but this is also substations 66 were the result of physical attack only two of which were cyber attacks. Yeah did did you know there was also.

01:01:25.92
Dave
Wow wow 66 how like because apparently this recent event where they shot it up is the first time somebody shot it up. So how how are these other physical events happening. No.

01:01:31.75
chrisgammell
Yeah here we go in April of Twenty thirty I I had not heard about this in April nope. Nope nope here we go in April of 2013 I hadn’t heard about this in April Twenty Thirteen a vanload of mass men with submachine guns shot the rural installation to bits. Not at random they targeted key bits of the substations and mechanics like snipers against infrastructure shot by shot destroying 17 of the substations large transformers. These men were never caught and their know-how and malice made an impression though. Nobody talks about it. Our physical and infrastructure is not just exposed to weird weather. It’s also shockingly vulnerable to weird people well said.

01:01:54.20
Dave
Whoa whoa.

01:02:08.11
Dave
There is a film in that there’s a film like there’s a I would watch that right? Yeah, but what was their might like what was their motive. What? what.

01:02:09.83
chrisgammell
Like this is out there surely but they’ve never caught these guys. There’s nothing there but like like how did nobody knows like they took out Silicon Valley like it like it was probably something around that I mean maybe who I have no idea.

01:02:26.46
Dave
Was was something happening at the time was there like was it was there an election was there ah was there something else that they were trying to like shut down wait there. There has to be there has to be.

01:02:29.60
chrisgammell
I don’t know April of 2013 nope yeah I’m sure there there’s writing about this I’m sure but like I know I know but like this and like the fact that like they’re just now putting up fences you know, like around some of these places as well. Yeah, and like.

01:02:45.54
Dave
Right? right? Yeah fences Well fences aren’t going to keep out the boards you know because they’re chain link fences right? I do understand them eyes I Speak fluent American Yep yeah, ah.

01:02:48.27
chrisgammell
And that’s that’s right, that’s right, that’s right folks Dave Understands American yes yeah and and like so this is one segment of the book and like I said I just read it so it’s it’s particularly it’s fresh in my mind but like.

01:03:02.70
Dave
Wow Yeah, okay.

01:03:06.13
chrisgammell
It is interesting just like the whole book is interesting. So I do recommend it? Um, it’s a little slow in parts and it feels like a little um, weird and but not weird. It’s like it’s a little political in parts. It’s like it’s It’s like the author is definitely bringing very strong so judgments about certain things not others. But I think honestly it’s just like.

01:03:17.11
Dave
There are okay.

01:03:24.17
chrisgammell
It’s very matter of fact, speaking about a lot of things and like that’s okay and like it’s not been super frustrating. So um, and like then you get stuff like this where I didn’t know in April Twenty Thirteen this stuff happened.

01:03:24.83
Dave
Excellent, Yeah, it’s great. Excellent, No Wow I’m gonna to is there any done in any info on there at and on this thing out there at all.

01:03:40.81
chrisgammell
Not not not in the book. But I’m sure I’m sure on the internet. There is yeah there you go Dave there’s so that’s an easy video right? there? Yeah yeah.

01:03:43.93
Dave
None oh right okay oh wow oh that’s great yeah no anyway, no I’m I’m more concerned like physical attacks and stuff like that. Yeah, it’s like you know unless you had some you know nationwide thing it’s you know it’s not gonna like It’s really hard to organize like you know like a a a team of you know a hundred you know armed people to.

01:04:03.96
chrisgammell
No, no, no, no oh no Dave it would take there was another thing in here. It said like we would only have to take out like 15 of these things and then because of how the grid readjusts it would actually take out a large swath of the country.

01:04:13.26
Dave
Right. Yes, Oh yeah, if you knew where to hit them. Oh yeah, yeah, if you totally knew where to hit them. But but I’m saying it’s kind of difficult to get that many people organized to take down the grid right.

01:04:21.36
chrisgammell
15 yeah, it’s not that. Yeah. I see yeah hopefully people aren’t that big a dicks right? that would be I know? yeah.

01:04:34.99
Dave
Yeah, exactly I mean you know like you can’t just be in a I don’t know a gang or something go Yeah, let’s just take down the entire country and I like it’s like maybe but I’m just not seeing the motive there right? not seeing the motive and the will to do it. But oh yeah, totally.

01:04:45.64
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, oh in the Moat ah people are terrible. Um, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:04:54.66
Dave
Yeah, people are but but getting people as groups to be terrible physically like that is really difficult I think no you disagree Really you you think it would be easy.

01:05:03.67
chrisgammell
I I disagree I disagree.

01:05:14.27
Dave
To find 30 of your friends who yeah, let’s let’s go take let’s you know, grab our you know a r fifteen s and go and take down the grid really you think it’d be easy to find that many people right? Yeah, ah.

01:05:25.88
chrisgammell
Well I don’t have 30 friends nor nor do I have any friends with a r fifteen s but um I do think there are certain groups in the us that yeah I think there I think there would be unfortunately yeah chaos. That’s what I’m really hoping is that there isn’t motive right? No i.

01:05:32.99
Dave
Yeah, but what’s the motive. Yeah, exactly right? That’s a.

01:05:42.82
chrisgammell
I’m just saying that if the will was there I think I think the the method is there Unfortunately I think I think it’s a big deal. You know? yeah.

01:05:45.47
Dave
Oh yeah, totally okay, but anyway no I’m more concerned with the solar flare is what I’m saying basically I’m I’m more concerned with the sun burp in and we have a bad day right.

01:05:54.70
chrisgammell
Oh um, yeah, this sounds burfing? Yeah yeah I mean that that is probably in terms of like ah singular events. Yeah, that would definitely be very detrimental. But I think.

01:06:07.52
Dave
Yes, because because it takes it out on a global scale right? It’s just not you know County or state or nationally you know it’s like yeah okay, you’re saying what you take out 15 substations in you can take out the whole whole of the us whole the continental.

01:06:10.89
chrisgammell
The more look sure. Sure sure.

01:06:20.97
chrisgammell
Eastern Eastern Seaboard let’s say yeah and I’m gonna get I’m gonna get calls after this I yeah we can’t air this thing man I am I am not planning to do this personally just so we’re all clear. Do not think I’m doing this I don’t want this to happen. Please don’t don’t knock on my door.

01:06:24.21
Dave
Ah, in Eastern Sea right you can take out an entire eastern seaboard. You know it’s like.

01:06:31.23
Dave
Ah, ah, right.

01:06:40.86
Dave
Ah, oh boy mentioned the first amendment and they’re gonna come knocking right? Okay, all right? Yep boy yeah, all right? anyway. Yeah I’m I’m more concerned with the bigger scale disruptions. Yep.

01:06:42.40
chrisgammell
Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah na and and and I just yeah.

01:06:56.67
chrisgammell
All the flares. Yeah yeah, anyways, this book is great. Um, other things that I learned from it um were things like like how deregulation ended up working and and like ah.

01:06:59.87
Dave
Anyway, Okay, not right.

01:07:14.50
chrisgammell
I didn’t I actually didn’t have a good feel for how like utilities were run back in like or really these days as well. But like you know, basically the transitions from like like traditional utilities in the Us and this is a very Us-centric book I should also say you know so this is us grid not other countries so take that with a grain of salt.

01:07:25.70
Dave
Right? Of course Yeah, not yeah.

01:07:33.10
chrisgammell
Um, but I didn’t realize how deregulation actually impacted things like um so like these days because of how deregulation works often like the power that I I consume will actually be like purchased.

01:07:44.99
Dave
And.

01:07:49.69
chrisgammell
From a plant that’s much further away. It’s not like locally generated often often. It’s like generated you know so basically like a plant or like ah you know, maybe a nuclear plant in Georgia or wherever the closest 1 is says hey we have all this excess power. We’re putting on the market at this price. My local energy company says I’d like to buy that.

01:07:55.70
Dave
Right.

01:08:07.48
chrisgammell
And then they say Okay, we’re going to transport this across. You know the high voltage lines all the way down the grid.

01:08:12.14
Dave
Spoiler Spoiler alert. That’s why they call it the grid. Yeah, ah.

01:08:14.94
chrisgammell
Yeah, but but like the the economic aspect of it I didn’t quite understand I kind of assumed that the power I’m using is the power that was generated locally but it is not not necessarily the case and yeah so I’m just learning a lot of things here. Dave I guess I should probably maybe put them into.

01:08:27.35
Dave
Yeah, right right? Well, there’s a lot of people who who like when whenever I say I’ve got a solar powered car right? Yeah solar panels on my roof actually power my car and I get so many people say no, that’s bullshit.

01:08:37.67
chrisgammell
Is in.

01:08:44.11
chrisgammell
Um, don’t ruin.

01:08:46.49
Dave
Right? It’s coming from the grid. It’s going the the actual electrons generated. They’re coming from the grid right? And and I’m going. No I’ve got a current meter current ever flows into my house or out of my house. Okay, current flows. No.

01:08:56.40
chrisgammell
No yeah that’s right right it’s not 100% solar but yeah I was actually just watching I was telling you I um I was watching that video with your ah your my energy. Whatever the thing was and it was like 62

01:09:04.20
Dave
No, no, it’s it’s it no, it’s a hundred percent yeah Yeah yeah, well it’s oh yeah, but no, it’s generally it’s like 99 basically a hundred right? Yeah yeah, yeah, no, it’s it’s ah it’s basically a hundred.

01:09:12.00
chrisgammell
At the time you that you film that video. Yeah so like sunny days for sure right? I mean it’s yeah why Why wouldn’t it be.

01:09:21.41
Dave
It’s near a hundred pounds the only time it’s not going to be is when the control when you’ve maximized your other consumption in the house as well, right? So and then and and then you’ve got the and then because there there is a control loop which has a couple of seconds actually delay before it.

01:09:28.90
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yep, yeah you running the dryer. You’re got the air con on.

01:09:38.99
chrisgammell
I see. Yeah, yeah, yep, yep.

01:09:39.14
Dave
You know the car compensates. So the car adjusts its charging level based on the pwm output of the thing and you know so there’s a control loop there. But if we’ve got tons of excess solar. There’s just no, there’s no question about it I’ve got a current meter. It’s exporting to the grid. It’s not input in anything.

01:09:52.43
chrisgammell
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:09:57.32
Dave
So it’s yeah I’m consuming all of that power locally. You know it’s like yeah like the a trust me a current current meter doesn’t lie right.

01:10:04.99
chrisgammell
So there they they take they take umbrage with the fact that you’re you’re saying that the electrons are coming from the panels versus the grid and I get it.

01:10:13.67
Dave
Yeah, they come from the yeah they come from they go no it actually comes from the grid. It’s all bullshit and it’s got no if you’ve got a literal current meter in there. Yeah I know to just just approve you. Yeah, the current meter is currents flowing out to the grid.

01:10:22.12
chrisgammell
Do I have to go and unhook my grid connection to just to show you jokers that right? That’s right, This is good. That’s right right? yeah.

01:10:32.76
Dave
Right? It’s like oh my God you know Anyway, man people just don’t get it. No yeah, shockarra. Yeah, by the way you are gonna lose your bet. Yeah, totally dude.

01:10:40.10
chrisgammell
It’s almost like peep on the internet are antagonistic for no reason is sometimes.

01:10:47.24
chrisgammell
You think? yeah yeah I mean maybe you know what I will be funding the first round of Dave gadgets running risk 5 processors. So if I lose I lose.

01:10:51.89
Dave
Yeah, yep. all right all right all right I may substitute in the three cent micro. Okay so hundred bucks worth of ¢3 micros gets me a lot of micros. Yeah.

01:11:05.91
chrisgammell
Oh yeah, okay, yeah, we’ll just put it at a hundred bucks hundred bucks to put towards your chips of choice. Yeah, sure great. We’ll see we’ll see how it goes. We’ll see how it goes in the meantime you could find me at chaos social I cross post to Twitter.

01:11:15.64
Dave
Excellent, All right done.

01:11:25.47
chrisgammell
But I’m not on there any any ah any any days.

01:11:26.14
Dave
Yeah, oh yes, you should make the announcement that your tweets your you still do cross post to Twitter but you don’t read anything there anymore right right? right so if people actually reply to you on Twitter you won’t see it right.

01:11:36.25
chrisgammell
That’s right? Yep yep.

01:11:41.93
chrisgammell
That’s right, you can call me whatever you whatever name? you’d like also known as Twitter yeah I’m just saying it’s always been like and on Twitter yeahp yep cool.

01:11:48.57
Dave
Luddite anyway, you can you certainly contact me on Twitter on there all day every day. Yep, now there right.

01:11:59.21
chrisgammell
Right? Well thank you once again, we should once again, thank our our unknowing patron of our subreddit unmanaged six fifteen regularly posting lots and lots of links on there just a legend. So thanks for that and yeah, we’ll.

01:12:08.38
Dave
Yes, I noticed that yep and all our patrons of course who keep the show Afloat Yep, that’s it. We’re done.

01:12:18.23
chrisgammell
We’ll be back of course of course. Yeah, yep, yep. All right Cool. We’ll see you next time.

01:12:26.69
Dave
Catch you next time.