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07:49 area

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01:30 going right through in the same area, those people right there

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11:49 00:00,010 --> 00:05,410 What makes it work is that the scene is not about the information. 2 00:05,810 --> 00:07,310 It's about the relationship. 3 00:17,410 --> 00:18,370 Hi, I'm Chas Fisher. 4 00:18,570 --> 00:19,670 And I'm Stu Willis. 5 00:19,830 --> 00:23,750 And welcome to DraftZero, a podcast where two Aussie filmmakers try to work 6 00:23,750 --> 00:25,590 out what makes great screenplays work. 7 00:25,590 --> 00:30,430 And in this episode, we are going to be talking about the emotional event. 8 00:30,690 --> 00:34,910 We are joined by Judith Weston, a teacher of directors, actors, 9 00:34,990 --> 00:37,370 and writers, and she has been teaching since 1985. 10 00:37,930 --> 00:42,310 Her students include Taika Waititi, Alejandro Gonzalez Inarratu, 11 00:42,590 --> 00:47,370 Ava DuVernay, Boots Riley, and Alma Harrell. Her books, Directing Actors and 12 00:47,370 --> 00:51,010 The Film Director's Intuition, are absolute classics. 13 00:51,290 --> 00:55,630 They are books that I read very early on in my career and I still reread. 14 00:55,710 --> 00:59,710 And not only have they influenced my career, I would say they've influenced 15 00:59,710 --> 01:01,150 just the way I live my life. 16 01:01,270 --> 01:04,930 So welcome to the show, Judith. We are so very excited to have you here. 17 01:05,150 --> 01:06,930 Thank you so much for inviting me. 18 01:07,210 --> 01:12,230 So good. So the kind of overall thing that we're going to be talking about is 19 01:12,230 --> 01:16,450 the emotional event, which is an idea that in the 25th anniversary edition of 20 01:16,450 --> 01:19,750 directing actors, you kind of brought a little bit more to the forefront. 21 01:19,930 --> 01:23,590 It's been there in your work. And we're going to be talking about scenes from 22 01:23,590 --> 01:26,970 Oppenheimer, Casino Royale, and past lives. 23 01:27,450 --> 01:31,890 So the idea of the emotional event is something that struck me as a director, 24 01:31,970 --> 01:36,010 but I think it absolutely applies to screenwriters as well. 25 01:36,430 --> 01:40,850 And look, it's very common for people to talk about like a scene scene needing 26 01:40,850 --> 01:43,370 to have a plot event, that the scene needs to turn, 27 01:43,630 --> 01:47,190 and the idea of looking at your scene, and not looking at it from a plot perspective, 28 01:47,270 --> 01:51,310 but looking at it from an emotional perspective, what is an emotional event, 29 01:51,470 --> 01:56,650 is a really useful one for screenwriters, I think, but actors and directors as well. 30 01:56,790 --> 02:00,990 So, can you kind of give us a little bit of an introduction into what you think 31 02:00,990 --> 02:02,390 of as an emotional event? 32 02:03,250 --> 02:08,290 Okay, I will try. The thing is, what actually really excited me about doing 33 02:08,290 --> 02:14,030 this podcast with you is that the best way to describe it is through examples. 34 02:14,510 --> 02:17,730 People find it abstract somehow or hard to grasp. 35 02:17,870 --> 02:22,950 And in fact, that's why I wrote this 25th anniversary edition of Directing Actors, 36 02:23,010 --> 02:26,450 because in the original Directing Actors, I referred to emotional events. 37 02:26,690 --> 02:31,830 But all that time After that, I was teaching. I've been teaching for 35 years. 38 02:32,350 --> 02:36,830 And as I taught, and after the book came out, I would require it. 39 02:36,870 --> 02:40,490 People had to read it before they took the workshop, Acting for Directors, 40 02:40,570 --> 02:43,410 which was my flagship workshop for a long time. 41 02:43,790 --> 02:47,650 And when I would ask them what they were hoping to learn, they would say, 42 02:47,750 --> 02:50,030 you know, I'm a little bit confused about emotional event. 43 02:50,290 --> 02:53,290 And everybody said that. They said it over and over. over. 44 02:53,750 --> 02:58,150 And I also taught classes that had directors and actors in them, 45 02:58,190 --> 03:01,830 and that sometimes they would rehearse outside of class and bring in the scene. 46 03:02,190 --> 03:07,630 And then at the end, I would ask people, you know, how the rehearsal went and what they worked on. 47 03:07,730 --> 03:11,050 And then I would say to the directors, so what's the emotional event? 48 03:11,370 --> 03:16,050 They would all sort of hit their heads and go, oh, I knew she was going to ask 49 03:16,050 --> 03:19,330 me that, but they hadn't been able to figure it out. 50 03:19,530 --> 03:24,050 And so I just always knew that I had to make this clearer somehow. 51 03:24,390 --> 03:28,650 So I really tried to do that in this 25th anniversary edition. 52 03:28,910 --> 03:34,190 And then also my other book, Film Director's Intuition, just this past fall, 53 03:34,290 --> 03:36,710 I was asked to do an audiobook version. 54 03:37,170 --> 03:41,870 And that's coming out April 30th. That's going to drop on April 30th. 55 03:41,910 --> 03:45,510 But I did a lot of rewriting on the Film Director's Intuition because that was 56 03:45,510 --> 03:46,990 was already 20 years old too. 57 03:47,390 --> 03:50,990 And, you know, like really, really trying to delve into this, 58 03:51,050 --> 03:56,810 because I do believe that an understanding of emotional event is the thing that 59 03:56,810 --> 04:01,530 makes a person a director instead of just a person who points a camera at something. 60 04:01,950 --> 04:06,130 And certainly Mike Nichols talks about it all the time. 61 04:06,170 --> 04:10,150 And Sidney Lumet, you know, all the great directors who were also Also teachers 62 04:10,150 --> 04:14,390 who also had an interest in mentoring younger directors. 63 04:14,610 --> 04:18,690 They always talked. Another way of thinking of it is what the scene is about. 64 04:19,190 --> 04:22,150 I think what's interesting, because we have talked about the idea of scenes 65 04:22,150 --> 04:25,510 having a thematic question, which is what is the scene about? 66 04:25,610 --> 04:29,290 But on a thematic level, and I think what is the emotional event is another 67 04:29,290 --> 04:31,950 is like, what is the scene about emotionally? 68 04:32,190 --> 04:35,770 And that is different from a scene being thematic, which can be a little bit 69 04:35,770 --> 04:40,270 more intellectual. You know, what strikes me about your work and the way you 70 04:40,270 --> 04:43,410 think about directing actors is it puts so much emphasis on relationships. 71 04:44,570 --> 04:49,030 And I think that is such a powerful tool for writers to go, because it's very 72 04:49,030 --> 04:51,910 easy to get caught up in thinking of your characters as individuals, 73 04:52,090 --> 04:55,410 as opposed to people within kind of a web of relationships. 74 04:55,650 --> 04:59,410 And I think what's really useful of the emotional event is, from my understanding 75 04:59,410 --> 05:05,490 of it, I always think of it as, what is the relationship change between these two or more characters? 76 05:05,830 --> 05:10,670 Exactly. How is the relationship different at the end of the scene than it was at the beginning? 77 05:10,830 --> 05:13,570 That's the simplest way to put it. you know 78 05:13,570 --> 05:16,670 what changes in the emotional temperature and it 79 05:16,670 --> 05:19,570 could be a very small change and it could 80 05:19,570 --> 05:22,430 be a change in power change in power status and 81 05:22,430 --> 05:26,150 it could be a change in intimacy i mean 82 05:26,150 --> 05:30,110 those are two usual changes either it's a change in intimacy they become more 83 05:30,110 --> 05:35,890 intimate or they become more estranged or a change of power relationship those 84 05:35,890 --> 05:41,150 are kind of the usual ways and every scene has to to have one if it doesn't 85 05:41,150 --> 05:43,950 have it it's got to go yeah. 86 05:43,950 --> 05:46,910 And that's where it's it's going to be hugely 87 05:46,910 --> 05:51,250 valuable for writers and not just directors and actors like sue and i have done 88 05:51,250 --> 05:56,950 100 odd episodes now and we have looked in at discrete character tools like 89 05:56,950 --> 06:01,290 what's the character question of a scene usually looking at the protagonist 90 06:01,290 --> 06:06,750 of the scene how to best dramatize character character motivations from a writing perspective. 91 06:06,990 --> 06:13,270 And we've done what we call status transactions and tactics and all those things 92 06:13,270 --> 06:19,170 were different, I guess, dials or aspects that I was reading in your book, 93 06:19,350 --> 06:21,750 especially the chapter on the emotional event. 94 06:21,950 --> 06:26,850 But I don't think we've ever just taken this big step back and gone, 95 06:26,970 --> 06:32,830 all right, in a scene, how does the relationship between these these characters change? 96 06:33,270 --> 06:37,290 You know, having read your book, I'm now like, that's a really obvious question to ask. 97 06:37,370 --> 06:43,450 But I was not asking it really beforehand, unless Stu, who had read your book, was forcing me to. 98 06:45,150 --> 06:48,590 I mean, I think your comment about every scene should have it. 99 06:48,630 --> 06:52,230 This will help transition a little bit towards talking about Oppenheimer. 100 06:52,370 --> 06:56,530 Right. Because I think what you're talking about, like, what struck me, 101 06:56,550 --> 06:59,950 and I've used an excerpt in one of my, I occasionally teach, 102 07:00,170 --> 07:03,990 and in my class in exposition, I actually play a little clip of you talking 103 07:03,990 --> 07:05,950 about every scene needs an emotional event. 104 07:06,770 --> 07:10,370 I don't think you use the word especially, but the emphasis I'm putting on it 105 07:10,370 --> 07:13,110 is especially scenes that you think is expository. 106 07:13,110 --> 07:17,690 If you think the scene is just there to give the audience information, 107 07:17,930 --> 07:22,510 then you need to look into it further and find out what the emotional event is. 108 07:22,650 --> 07:26,650 And what struck me in prepping for this when we decided to do Oppenheimer is 109 07:26,650 --> 07:29,230 it's a film that it's got so much information. 110 07:29,490 --> 07:31,850 So much information. 111 07:31,850 --> 07:37,030 And makes it emotional. Like it was more successful for me in that regard than, than Chaz. 112 07:37,250 --> 07:40,870 I mean, we, he still liked it. I just really liked it. And part of it was like, 113 07:40,990 --> 07:44,450 yeah, it takes so much information and makes it emotional. 114 07:44,810 --> 07:48,470 And I think that's why it somehow resonated with a lot of people because of 115 07:48,470 --> 07:52,870 the emotional quality, not because we're listening to a lecture from Oppenheimer 116 07:52,870 --> 07:57,470 about physics, but the fact that somehow there's this emotional subtext to what 117 07:57,470 --> 07:58,430 he's saying about physics. 118 07:59,490 --> 08:04,790 We polled our patrons in selecting the films, but when we came to actually selecting the the scenes. 119 08:05,550 --> 08:08,730 You were part of those initial emails back and forth, Judith, 120 08:08,870 --> 08:12,630 where we were going, do we do three scenes from each film, five scenes from each film? 121 08:12,710 --> 08:16,030 And finally, reason prevailed and we picked one scene from each film. 122 08:16,370 --> 08:21,910 This is a perfect one. This is just fantastic. I'm so glad you chose this one. I love it. 123 08:22,390 --> 08:27,090 I had so much fun preparing for this. I really did. I read it over and over 124 08:27,090 --> 08:28,090 and I watched the the movie again. 125 08:28,450 --> 08:34,570 I should say, I come to Oppenheimer with some baggage because I had watched, 126 08:34,770 --> 08:40,310 there was a TV series back 10 more years ago called Manhattan. 127 08:40,950 --> 08:45,690 So I came to that feeling like that was the real Los Alamos. 128 08:46,130 --> 08:51,870 And the first time I watched Oppenheimer on the big screen, I was a little bit 129 08:51,870 --> 08:54,610 distracted because when I got to Los Alamos, I was thinking, 130 08:54,610 --> 08:55,770 That's not the way it was. 131 08:56,330 --> 08:59,730 You're describing an experience that Chaz and I call, that's not how time travel works. 132 09:00,010 --> 09:05,590 Because you're so used to the rules of another film that you can't help and bring that baggage. 133 09:05,810 --> 09:07,310 That's not what happened at Los Alamos. 134 09:07,630 --> 09:13,970 Yeah, yeah. So we're going to, at your request, we're going to be reading the parts of the script. 135 09:14,430 --> 09:15,350 Let me put it my way. 136 09:15,570 --> 09:16,270 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 137 09:16,390 --> 09:19,910 I asked them if they would mind reading the script aloud. loud. 138 09:20,030 --> 09:22,410 And then I asked them not to prepare. 139 09:22,730 --> 09:25,490 I asked them to decide among themselves who's going to read which, 140 09:25,590 --> 09:30,590 but not to read it in a monotone, you know, not to read it, you know, with deliberately, 141 09:31,230 --> 09:35,750 uninflected, but to read it like they're two men talking, not like it's a colonel 142 09:35,750 --> 09:40,790 and a physicist talking, but a little bit slower than usual conversation. 143 09:41,710 --> 09:46,250 And I just find that very useful to go a little bit lower at first, 144 09:46,430 --> 09:48,610 because you can let the words hit you a little bit. 145 09:49,150 --> 09:53,090 Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to discuss this a little bit before we dive into it. 146 09:53,130 --> 09:53,690 Yes. Okay. 147 09:53,870 --> 09:59,290 Because Chas and I had a script reading for one of our projects on Monday. 148 09:59,490 --> 10:01,650 One of my friends is doing their master's. 149 10:01,890 --> 10:06,910 And I was like, oh, a bunch of film students might be excited to do a feature read-through. 150 10:06,910 --> 10:09,630 and we sent them the script and with some 151 10:09,630 --> 10:12,630 notes but said look we don't expect you to prepare it's really just 152 10:12,630 --> 10:15,870 there if you're feeling anxious 153 10:15,870 --> 10:19,250 and want to prepare but we'd prefer you didn't because 154 10:19,250 --> 10:24,630 we just basically wanted them to be in the experience in real time as the characters 155 10:24,630 --> 10:28,190 because it's really about us sitting back and listening to it and going oh that 156 10:28,190 --> 10:32,950 lands that doesn't land and if they're prepared they might be overselling something 157 10:32,950 --> 10:38,390 or underselling something link or playing a moment as informed by a moment in the future, 158 10:38,430 --> 10:41,350 if that makes sense. So it's not emotionally true to the moment. 159 10:41,570 --> 10:45,070 But I was curious about your reasons for doing it because we found it very valuable 160 10:45,070 --> 10:49,830 and it was interesting that basically at the same time, you had said something similar about us. 161 10:50,010 --> 10:54,330 So what is the kind of the thinking, you know, is it just to let the words hit you? 162 10:54,430 --> 10:58,390 What are some of those usefulness if people are doing their own reading? 163 10:58,970 --> 11:04,170 Well, when I'm doing it in a class, I say, you know, just let the words live in the air. 164 11:04,890 --> 11:09,530 That's the only way that I think of it, you know, because I don't want to intellectualize 165 11:09,530 --> 11:11,590 it. And OK, I'll be honest. 166 11:11,810 --> 11:15,630 It's to get away from thinking about result, you know, to think about whether 167 11:15,630 --> 11:17,190 you're doing a good job of performing. 168 11:17,530 --> 11:18,010 Yeah, great. 169 11:18,190 --> 11:19,130 Amazing. Thank you. 170 11:19,270 --> 11:22,770 And also, you know, it's for the audience here so they can hear it. 171 11:22,870 --> 11:26,110 I'm assuming some people listen to your podcast in their cars, right? 172 11:26,110 --> 11:29,310 Some crazy people listen to it at three times speed. 173 11:30,290 --> 11:30,970 Oh, okay. 174 11:31,230 --> 11:34,130 We had one listener going, I finished this in the episode. And we're like, 175 11:34,150 --> 11:38,090 it came out half an hour ago. And he's like, yeah, listen to it at three times speed. 176 11:38,470 --> 11:44,590 All right. Well, then they will defeat me with my little plan here. 177 11:44,690 --> 11:48,430 But yeah, they won't have the script in front of them. So in order for me to 178 11:48,430 --> 11:49,890 talk about it and to hear it out loud. 179 11:50,550 --> 11:54,870 All right. So just before we go to the reading, you've also asked us for Oppenheimer 180 11:54,870 --> 11:59,850 and Past Lives to not read the big print or stage directions, 181 11:59,870 --> 12:01,370 as you call them, or action lines. 182 12:01,810 --> 12:04,770 We're just going to be focusing on the dialogue in terms of the read. 183 12:04,930 --> 12:09,030 If I see a stage direction that I think needs to be read, I will read it. 184 12:09,130 --> 12:09,490 Oh, great. 185 12:09,690 --> 12:10,890 But most of them don't. 186 12:11,290 --> 12:13,550 All right. So Oppenheimer? Oppenheimer? 187 12:27,930 --> 12:29,150 The Nazis have a bomb. 188 12:32,470 --> 12:36,550 They have a 12-month head start. 18. How could you possibly know that? 189 12:38,050 --> 12:44,530 We've got one hope. All America's industrial might and scientific innovation connected here. 190 12:45,730 --> 12:46,690 Secret laboratory. 191 12:48,410 --> 12:50,490 Keep everyone there until it's done. 192 12:53,710 --> 12:56,970 I mean, it's obviously the best picture winner and a lot of people saw it, 193 12:56,970 --> 13:01,650 But this is the story of Oppenheimer's role in the development of the atomic bomb in World War II. 194 13:01,890 --> 13:07,590 And specifically, we're looking at a scene where the US Army Colonel Leslie 195 13:07,590 --> 13:12,770 Groves, who's played by Matt Damon, effectively is recruiting Oppenheimer to 196 13:12,770 --> 13:14,830 be the director of the Los Alamos Laboratory. 197 13:15,210 --> 13:18,850 So this is the scene where they meet for the first time. and 198 13:18,850 --> 13:23,350 maybe this is a little bit too early to say this but when it struck me reading 199 13:23,350 --> 13:27,110 it was that mike nichols line about you know every scene's like a seduction 200 13:27,110 --> 13:31,530 or an interrogation and i felt like this scene was a little bit like a seduction 201 13:31,530 --> 13:38,430 but that's the that's kind of the scene is is groves coming in and talking to um oppenheimer all. 202 13:38,430 --> 13:39,570 Right fire away steve. 203 13:39,570 --> 13:46,630 Dr oppenheimer i'm I'm Colonel Groves. This is Lieutenant Colonel Nichols. Get that dry cleaned. 204 13:47,190 --> 13:51,630 If that's how you treat a lieutenant colonel, I'd hate to see how you treat a humble physicist. 205 13:52,110 --> 13:54,050 If I ever meet one, I'll let you know. 206 13:54,370 --> 13:54,810 Ouch. 207 13:55,230 --> 13:58,650 Heaters of combat all over the world, but I have to stay in Washington. 208 13:59,070 --> 13:59,430 Why? 209 13:59,730 --> 14:03,550 I built the Pentagon. The brass likes it so much they made me take over the 210 14:03,550 --> 14:05,070 Manhattan Engineer District. 211 14:05,470 --> 14:06,090 Which is? 212 14:06,790 --> 14:11,330 Don't be a smartass. You know damn well what it is. You and half of every physics 213 14:11,330 --> 14:14,190 department across America. That's problem number one. 214 14:14,370 --> 14:17,910 I thought problem number one would be securing enough uranium ore. 215 14:18,050 --> 14:21,270 1,200 tons. Bought the day I took charge. 216 14:21,870 --> 14:22,450 Processing? 217 14:22,470 --> 14:27,290 Just broke ground at Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Now I'm looking for a project director. 218 14:27,650 --> 14:28,850 And my name came up. 219 14:29,350 --> 14:34,490 Nope. Even though you brought quantum physics to America, that made me curious. 220 14:34,910 --> 14:36,110 What have you found out? 221 14:36,110 --> 14:39,630 You're a Dylan Dante, womaniser, suspected communist. 222 14:40,030 --> 14:41,410 I'm a New Deal Democrat. 223 14:41,950 --> 14:47,150 I said suspected. Unstable, theatrical, egotistical, neurotic. 224 14:47,350 --> 14:50,750 Nothing good. Not even he's brilliant, but... 225 14:51,700 --> 14:54,780 Brilliance is taken for granted in your circles, so no. 226 14:55,220 --> 14:58,240 Only one person said anything good, Richard Tolman. 227 14:58,480 --> 15:03,440 He thinks you've got integrity, but Tolman strikes me as someone who knows science better than people. 228 15:03,820 --> 15:07,000 Yet here you are. You don't take much on trust. 229 15:07,400 --> 15:10,980 I don't take anything on trust. Why don't you have a Nobel Prize? 230 15:11,440 --> 15:12,780 Why aren't you a general? 231 15:13,080 --> 15:14,400 They're making me one for this. 232 15:14,880 --> 15:16,460 Maybe I'll have the same luck. 233 15:16,740 --> 15:18,540 A Nobel Prize for making a bomb. 234 15:19,080 --> 15:21,200 Alfred Nobel invented dynamite. 235 15:21,700 --> 15:22,960 So how would you proceed? 236 15:23,980 --> 15:29,000 You're talking about turning theory into a practical weapons system faster than the Nazis. 237 15:29,400 --> 15:31,400 Who have had a 12-month head start? 238 15:31,920 --> 15:32,220 18. 239 15:32,680 --> 15:34,360 How could you possibly know that? 240 15:34,660 --> 15:39,240 Our fast neutron research took six months. The man they've undoubtedly put in 241 15:39,240 --> 15:41,000 charge will have made that leap instantly. 242 15:41,440 --> 15:42,980 Who do you think they put in charge? 243 15:43,400 --> 15:49,060 Werner Heisenberg. He has the most intuitive understanding of atomic structure I have ever seen. 244 15:49,620 --> 15:50,440 You know his work? 245 15:50,440 --> 15:55,680 I know him. Just like I know Walter Both, von Beisacker, Diebner. 246 15:56,000 --> 15:59,780 In a straight race, the Germans win. We've got one hope. 247 16:00,040 --> 16:00,780 Which is? 248 16:01,740 --> 16:02,260 Antisemitism. 249 16:02,600 --> 16:03,040 What? 250 16:03,040 --> 16:08,720 Hitler called quantum physics Jewish science. Said it right to Einstein's face. 251 16:09,260 --> 16:13,980 Our one hope is that Hitler's so blinded by hate he's denied Heisenberg proper resources. 252 16:14,920 --> 16:19,720 Because it will take vast resources. Our nation's best scientists working together. 253 16:20,020 --> 16:21,440 Right now they're scattered. 254 16:21,700 --> 16:23,620 Which gives us compartmentalisation. 255 16:24,040 --> 16:27,140 All minds have to see the whole task to contribute efficiently. 256 16:27,540 --> 16:31,720 Poor security may cost us the race. Inefficiency will. will. 257 16:31,800 --> 16:33,840 The Germans know more than us anyway. 258 16:34,160 --> 16:35,340 The Russians don't. 259 16:35,740 --> 16:37,660 Remind me, who are we at war with? 260 16:38,160 --> 16:42,120 Someone with your past doesn't want to be seen downplaying the importance of 261 16:42,120 --> 16:43,820 security from our communist allies. 262 16:44,620 --> 16:46,500 Point taken. But no. 263 16:47,020 --> 16:48,680 You don't get to say no to me. 264 16:48,920 --> 16:51,640 It's my job to say no to you when you're wrong. 265 16:52,040 --> 16:53,460 You've got the job now? 266 16:54,480 --> 16:55,400 I'm considering it. 267 16:55,720 --> 16:59,240 I'm starting to see how you got your reputation. My favorite response, 268 16:59,840 --> 17:01,540 Oppenheimer couldn't run a hamburger stand. 269 17:01,880 --> 17:04,880 I couldn't, but I can run the Manhattan Project. 270 17:05,460 --> 17:10,180 Such a long scene. Let's stop for a second. The one thing that I try to do first 271 17:10,180 --> 17:12,600 is break it into beats, okay? 272 17:13,040 --> 17:15,620 You know, when I'm trying to understand a scene, it helps me, 273 17:15,660 --> 17:17,340 you know, start to get a handle on it. 274 17:17,440 --> 17:24,120 And I think what you've just said is, oh, it's the end of the first sub beat of the third beat. 275 17:24,480 --> 17:27,560 So let's go back again and read the first beat. 276 17:27,640 --> 17:34,160 I'm going to say that I think that the first beat goes until Oppenheimer's line, 277 17:34,320 --> 17:37,540 Alfred Nobel invented dynamite. Okay. 278 17:38,120 --> 17:42,560 And I'm going to say that's the first beat of the scene. You know, 279 17:42,580 --> 17:47,380 I'm glad you brought up Mike Nichols' suggestion that the emotional advantage 280 17:47,380 --> 17:51,820 of a scene is either a seduction, a negotiation, or a fight. 281 17:52,100 --> 17:57,680 You could see this as a seduction, but I sort of see it as a chess match. 282 17:57,940 --> 18:03,240 I see them both making points. I certainly think Oppenheimer wants the job. 283 18:03,300 --> 18:08,500 And his line when he says, oh, what's the Manhattan Engineer District? 284 18:08,840 --> 18:11,140 You know, of course, he knows very well what it is. 285 18:11,800 --> 18:18,300 And so certainly he wants the job, but, you know, there's something about this 286 18:18,300 --> 18:21,880 first beat where they, they spar with each other. 287 18:21,960 --> 18:26,320 It's more like banter or sparring, or I thought of it as chess match. 288 18:26,540 --> 18:30,320 And then when I went back and looked at the scene again, I saw, 289 18:30,520 --> 18:36,260 you know, Groves comes in the room and sits down and Oppenheimer pulls up a 290 18:36,260 --> 18:39,420 chair across from him. It's about five feet. 291 18:40,000 --> 18:42,180 It's big enough for a chess table in between them. 292 18:42,920 --> 18:43,840 It is. 293 18:44,040 --> 18:49,260 So it's not getting too close. It's not invading somebody's personal space, 294 18:49,440 --> 18:53,740 but it's face-to-face on the same level. 295 18:54,000 --> 18:57,140 It's what in fencing we would call being in wide measure. 296 18:57,260 --> 19:02,900 So it's far enough just to be able to touch the person, but not too close that 297 19:02,900 --> 19:04,760 you're really putting yourself too much at risk. 298 19:04,980 --> 19:10,320 Okay. Okay. Great. But they each get wins. They win back and forth. 299 19:10,740 --> 19:13,920 And Oppenheimer lets him win sometimes. 300 19:14,800 --> 19:19,860 So let's read this first beat again and just see how that goes. 301 19:20,240 --> 19:24,780 And I will read the stage direction about tossing his uniform jacket to the... 302 19:24,780 --> 19:28,200 That does matter, so I'll read that. 303 19:29,280 --> 19:33,360 Dr. Oppenheimer, I'm Colonel Groves. This is Lieutenant Colonel Nichols. 304 19:33,540 --> 19:36,740 He pulls off his uniform jacket and tosses it to Nichols. 305 19:36,960 --> 19:38,160 Get that dry cleaned. 306 19:38,400 --> 19:39,060 Nichols leave. 307 19:39,320 --> 19:42,880 If that's how you treat a lieutenant colonel, I'd hate to see how you treat a humble physicist. 308 19:43,300 --> 19:45,320 If I ever meet one, I'll let you know. 309 19:45,820 --> 19:46,260 Ouch. 310 19:46,680 --> 19:51,920 Okay. Win for Groves, and Oppenheimer lets him have the win. Ouch. 311 19:53,400 --> 19:59,000 But Groves gets the win. Oppenheimer jumps right in. I'm going to be equal to you. 312 19:59,280 --> 20:02,240 I'm going to call you on how you treat people. 313 20:03,000 --> 20:09,460 And then Rose calls him on that no physicists are humble. And also, 314 20:09,520 --> 20:10,760 that's a mysterious line. 315 20:10,900 --> 20:13,080 If I ever meet one, I'll let you know. 316 20:13,320 --> 20:18,940 I think it suggests, I think it's a clue to the fact that he's been meeting a lot of physicists. 317 20:20,080 --> 20:24,440 He's been meeting a lot of people who have been pitching themselves for this job. 318 20:24,680 --> 20:29,300 Okay? And he doesn't like a single one of them. He hates physicists. 319 20:30,080 --> 20:33,900 Okay. And I think that's something that he brings in here, you know, 320 20:33,920 --> 20:38,340 eat another jackass who's going to try to pitch himself. And anyway. 321 20:39,120 --> 20:44,420 Yeah. Ouch. Theaters of combat all over the world, but I have to stay in Washington. 322 20:44,820 --> 20:45,300 Why? 323 20:46,020 --> 20:50,020 I built the Pentagon. The brass likes it so much they made me take over the 324 20:50,020 --> 20:52,020 Manhattan Engineer District. 325 20:52,660 --> 20:53,320 Which is? 326 20:53,580 --> 20:57,860 Oh, don't be a smartass. You know damn well what it is. You and half of every 327 20:57,860 --> 21:01,240 physics department across America. That's problem number one. 328 21:01,480 --> 21:05,020 Yeah, just another thing. Problem number one. Problem number one is I have to 329 21:05,020 --> 21:07,060 spend time with all these jackasses. 330 21:09,180 --> 21:09,640 Yeah. 331 21:09,800 --> 21:10,260 Okay. 332 21:10,520 --> 21:13,580 It'd be so much easier to run the Manhattan Project without physicists. 333 21:13,940 --> 21:17,080 Well, it'd be so much easier for him to be in combat. 334 21:17,900 --> 21:20,580 Yes. Yeah, theaters of combat all over the world, yeah. 335 21:20,800 --> 21:23,500 That's what he's saying. Theaters of combat all over the world. 336 21:23,500 --> 21:26,520 I'd much rather be in the Philippines. 337 21:26,680 --> 21:30,360 I'd much rather be in Guam. I'd much rather be in- Europe. 338 21:30,480 --> 21:30,640 Yeah. 339 21:30,940 --> 21:34,940 Preferably Europe, okay? So that's where he wants to be. 340 21:35,080 --> 21:39,000 He doesn't want to be doing any of this Washington stuff at all, 341 21:39,040 --> 21:42,180 and he definitely doesn't want to be meeting with jackasses, 342 21:42,380 --> 21:44,780 all trying to tell him how smart they are. 343 21:45,380 --> 21:48,880 Which is Oppenheimer's almost telling him how smart he is with the, 344 21:49,020 --> 21:53,080 I thought problem Problem number one would be securing enough uranium ore. 345 21:53,320 --> 21:58,500 And I love just from a writing perspective that it's kind of done what we've 346 21:58,500 --> 22:02,200 called hook and eye, which is basically Grove says problem number one. 347 22:02,200 --> 22:06,500 And then Oppenheimer's dialogue starts with using the same words. 348 22:06,580 --> 22:10,700 It kind of connects it. So he's picking up on the problem number one and saying, 349 22:10,780 --> 22:13,740 actually, are you sure it's not uranium ore? 350 22:14,080 --> 22:17,800 Well, Oppenheimer takes his first win. And, you know, in terms of emotional 351 22:17,800 --> 22:21,040 event, that's how I'm seeing it. Oppenheimer takes his first win. 352 22:21,220 --> 22:22,860 He's saying, you know what? 353 22:23,300 --> 22:27,300 Our personalities are not the problem. The problem is beating the Germans. 354 22:28,530 --> 22:31,750 And then Groves has to respond to that with, well, actually, 355 22:31,910 --> 22:34,550 I've got it sorted. We've already got 1,200 tons. 356 22:34,850 --> 22:39,510 Bought the day I took charge. I love the use of the I there because it's him 357 22:39,510 --> 22:42,830 establishing his bona fides in front of Oppenheimer. 358 22:43,290 --> 22:47,950 It's not that they have 1,200 tons. It's that he got them to do it the very 359 22:47,950 --> 22:50,970 first thing. Him saying to Oppenheimer, I'm not an idiot. 360 22:51,250 --> 22:54,790 So now Groves is starting to approve his bona fides. 361 22:55,950 --> 22:56,390 Okay? 362 22:56,390 --> 22:59,830 Okay. Oppenheimer has put him in the position of proving his bona fides. 363 23:00,130 --> 23:02,370 That's why I say it's a win for Oppenheimer. 364 23:02,610 --> 23:07,170 Yeah. Here's an interesting question, and I'd have to rewatch the scene. 365 23:07,510 --> 23:11,790 Do you think Groves is coming in here going, I think Oppenheimer is the best, 366 23:11,830 --> 23:13,850 but I need to see if he's someone I can work with? 367 23:14,590 --> 23:18,390 Or it's him actually assessing whether or not he's capable of the job? 368 23:18,790 --> 23:19,750 Wait, what do you think? 369 23:20,590 --> 23:24,070 I mean, I phrased it as a question, but as I'm reading through this, 370 23:24,170 --> 23:30,350 I'm like, feels like Groves has basically almost said that he's met a whole bunch of physicists. 371 23:30,650 --> 23:34,770 He knows all of them are probably quite capable of doing the science, 372 23:34,830 --> 23:37,950 but he needs someone that's more than that. 373 23:38,090 --> 23:42,130 He needs someone who's actually going to solve the bigger project. 374 23:42,510 --> 23:46,550 I think he is testing the waters to see if Oppenheimer is that person, 375 23:46,630 --> 23:48,570 but he also needs Oppenheimer to approve him. 376 23:48,830 --> 23:52,610 I thought that's what was interesting about the 1,200 tons bought the day I 377 23:52,610 --> 23:56,770 took charge, is it's much about making Oppenheimer impressed by him. 378 23:56,870 --> 23:58,070 He needs Oppenheimer's approval. 379 23:58,310 --> 24:01,530 Because if Oppenheimer is the right person, if he goes in there knowing that, 380 24:01,610 --> 24:05,650 it's like, I actually need Oppenheimer to feel like we can be equals and work on this project. 381 24:05,970 --> 24:10,830 I think he needs to find out if Oppenheimer is someone he could stand to be around. 382 24:11,910 --> 24:15,990 Whoever this person is, they're going to be spending a lot of time together. 383 24:16,980 --> 24:22,300 And that's what I think the emotional event is, is that they discover they can work together. 384 24:22,480 --> 24:26,380 They discover they can tolerate each other or even like each other. 385 24:26,740 --> 24:29,520 Okay. That's why I say it's emotional. 386 24:31,140 --> 24:35,980 But they take all the steps along the way, you know, in this little fencing 387 24:35,980 --> 24:40,840 match, chess match, where they're getting little hits on each other. And they like that. 388 24:41,020 --> 24:43,320 They like to have a good sparring partner. 389 24:43,320 --> 24:50,700 I really like in Judith, you identified the Nobel Prize being the first major beat in the scene. 390 24:50,860 --> 24:54,820 I feel like there's a minor sub beat in the next line that we're about to talk 391 24:54,820 --> 24:58,500 about where Grove says just broke ground at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, full stop. 392 24:58,660 --> 25:03,000 Now I'm looking for a project director. They both knew coming into the scene 393 25:03,000 --> 25:05,520 that that's what this is. they. 394 25:05,520 --> 25:08,360 Both know that he knows that that's what this is about. 395 25:08,360 --> 25:11,540 But finally it's been said out loud that that's 396 25:11,540 --> 25:14,300 what this is so the to me the initial section of 397 25:14,300 --> 25:17,660 the scene is like you say the sparring this back and forth establishing of bona 398 25:17,660 --> 25:21,600 fides and now they're actually going to talk it comes out of subtext into text 399 25:21,600 --> 25:25,960 we're now going to talk about why we're here but i agree with you fully that 400 25:25,960 --> 25:30,420 that there's a beat next because i feel like oppenheimer doesn't change his 401 25:30,420 --> 25:31,880 approach to the interaction, 402 25:32,080 --> 25:36,480 to the relationship until that Alfred Noble line, because it's interesting, 403 25:36,620 --> 25:39,620 a lot of his lines, you can just see it visually on the page. 404 25:40,100 --> 25:44,960 Groves has got lots of chunks of text, multiple sentences, you know, 405 25:44,960 --> 25:48,620 statements, and Oppenheimer has lots of very short questions. 406 25:48,780 --> 25:51,020 Why? Which is processing. 407 25:51,440 --> 25:54,620 And my name came up. What have you found out? Like he's just, 408 25:54,620 --> 25:58,620 Just, you know, to Stu's point, is he trying to get information? 409 25:58,940 --> 26:03,760 Is he trying to, to your point, Judith, like surrender a little bit of power? 410 26:04,100 --> 26:09,440 There is definitely back and forth, but I feel like he's still not pushing as 411 26:09,440 --> 26:14,600 hard as he can yet, that he pushes a lot harder after that Alfred Noble. 412 26:15,670 --> 26:16,470 dynamite line? 413 26:16,730 --> 26:20,230 Well, here's the way I put it. And that doesn't mean that it's right. 414 26:20,510 --> 26:24,170 You know, the way that I talk about things, I don't mean that this is the only 415 26:24,170 --> 26:27,650 way to talk about them, the only way to think about them, the only way to do them. 416 26:27,730 --> 26:31,730 And I definitely don't mean that if Christopher Nolan didn't think of them this 417 26:31,730 --> 26:34,690 way, he should have. I definitely don't mean anything like that. 418 26:35,270 --> 26:40,150 But to me, I thought this whole, this whole beat, you know, it's a It's a getting-to-know-you 419 26:40,150 --> 26:44,730 beat, but with very high-powered people that want to do things fast. 420 26:45,130 --> 26:46,970 And so they're going to test each 421 26:46,970 --> 26:50,450 other. They're testing each other to see what the other guy is made of. 422 26:50,610 --> 26:55,230 And why I think the first beat ends with Alfred Nobel invented dynamite, 423 26:55,250 --> 26:59,150 because that is a definitive win for Oppenheimer. That's his definitive win. 424 26:59,330 --> 27:01,790 And at that moment, he has the job. 425 27:02,090 --> 27:03,970 He's not trying to get the job anymore. 426 27:04,310 --> 27:09,750 At that moment, he has the job. That's the way I see it. And then the next bead, 427 27:09,950 --> 27:12,130 Groves says, so how would you proceed? 428 27:12,670 --> 27:18,330 And so the next bead, I think, is strategizing. You already have a job. 429 27:18,670 --> 27:20,210 They're strategizing together. 430 27:20,550 --> 27:23,550 I think it's actually the first time Groves asks a question. 431 27:23,890 --> 27:27,270 Oppenheimer is not trying to prove anything at all anymore. He's saying, 432 27:27,410 --> 27:31,570 okay, let's get to work. They're 18 months ahead of us. 433 27:31,710 --> 27:35,530 And you're right. It is the first time Groves is asked a question. 434 27:35,530 --> 27:41,550 In a way, it's not every line, but there's a lot in that first beat of Oppenheimer 435 27:41,550 --> 27:42,990 asking questions, right? 436 27:43,070 --> 27:46,650 He's pulling information out of Groves, right? 437 27:46,750 --> 27:48,590 Nothing good, not even he's a brilliant but. 438 27:48,890 --> 27:52,070 I mean, sometimes he's choosing to make statements, you know, 439 27:52,070 --> 27:55,690 and my name came up. I love that that is a statement and not a question. 440 27:55,870 --> 27:59,090 Oppenheimer's like, well, of course my name came up. And so Groves says. 441 27:59,310 --> 27:59,570 No. 442 28:01,090 --> 28:04,710 It's like a nice little bit of win for Groves. But it is largely Oppenheimer 443 28:04,710 --> 28:06,110 pulling information from Groves. 444 28:06,190 --> 28:10,570 And as you say, part of that shift is after that definitive read from Oppenheimer, 445 28:10,690 --> 28:14,070 Alfred Noble invented dynamite is, so how would you proceed? 446 28:14,430 --> 28:18,450 Part of the reason we know it's a job is because Groves is actually interested 447 28:18,450 --> 28:20,130 in what Oppenheimer has to say. 448 28:20,210 --> 28:20,730 Right? 449 28:20,830 --> 28:24,290 And that is an emotion. That is a change in relationship. Even just going from 450 28:24,290 --> 28:28,110 making statements to someone to asking them questions is a bit of an emotional event. 451 28:28,370 --> 28:31,350 How would you proceed is really interesting for that reason. 452 28:31,350 --> 28:35,650 They're strategizing, but it's Groves interested in what Oppenheimer has to say here. 453 28:35,850 --> 28:38,430 The other thing is when I went back and watched the scene again, 454 28:38,510 --> 28:42,570 I roughed out where I thought the beats were, you know, just from the page. 455 28:42,730 --> 28:44,730 Then I went back and watched the scene again. 456 28:44,930 --> 28:47,810 And at this point, when Groves says, how would you proceed? 457 28:48,720 --> 28:57,760 Oppenheimer stands up. And that's a very smart directorial way to mark a beat change with blocking. 458 28:58,000 --> 29:03,440 It's physicalized, face-to-face at wide measure, and they're testing each other. 459 29:03,560 --> 29:07,100 I think they're both testing each other. I think, you know, Oppenheimer wants 460 29:07,100 --> 29:12,840 the job, but he knows that Groves wants somebody who will test him. They want the friction. 461 29:13,060 --> 29:16,260 They like the friction. They both work best with friction. 462 29:17,220 --> 29:20,680 I mean, poor Nichols, you know, he takes the coat and walks, 463 29:20,780 --> 29:22,340 takes it to the dry cleaner. 464 29:22,540 --> 29:27,160 Groves has no respect for Nichols. He wants somebody who's, that he can learn from. 465 29:27,300 --> 29:30,400 They both want to be around somebody that they can learn from, 466 29:30,500 --> 29:35,340 that they can sharpen their knives against. And that's what they find in that first beat. 467 29:35,540 --> 29:38,720 And they get to work. Now they are working. 468 29:38,960 --> 29:42,140 So let's just read that beat again. So how would you proceed? 469 29:42,460 --> 29:46,480 And just remember, in the movie, now Ebenheimer is standing up. 470 29:46,620 --> 29:52,160 And he's not exactly pacing, but he's got a sense of activity and movement to his body. 471 29:52,420 --> 29:53,680 So how would you proceed? 472 29:54,160 --> 29:58,900 You're talking about turning theory into a practical weapon system faster than the Nazis. 473 29:59,400 --> 30:00,900 You have a 12-month head start. 474 30:01,240 --> 30:01,580 18. 475 30:02,180 --> 30:03,800 How could you possibly know that? 476 30:04,060 --> 30:07,960 Our fast neutron research took six months. The man they've undoubtedly put in 477 30:07,960 --> 30:09,520 charge will have made that leap instantly. 478 30:10,040 --> 30:11,740 Who do you think they put in charge? 479 30:12,140 --> 30:16,520 Werner Heisenberg. He has the most intuitive understanding of atomic structure I've ever seen. 480 30:16,720 --> 30:17,580 You know his work? 481 30:17,920 --> 30:21,540 I know him. Just like I know Walter Boeck, von Weissacher, Diebner. 482 30:21,700 --> 30:25,340 In a straight race, the Germans win. We've got one hope. 483 30:26,360 --> 30:26,980 Which is? 484 30:27,360 --> 30:28,340 Anti-Semitism. 485 30:28,920 --> 30:29,440 What? 486 30:30,280 --> 30:34,880 Hitler called quantum physics Jewish science, said it right to Einstein's face. 487 30:35,340 --> 30:40,400 Our one hope is that Hitler's so blinded by hate, he's denied Heisenberg proper resources. 488 30:41,040 --> 30:43,620 Because it will take vast resources. 489 30:44,240 --> 30:48,720 Okay, right now I think it switches to the third beat. That can happen mid-speech, by the way. 490 30:48,980 --> 30:50,180 Oh, really? Yeah. 491 30:50,260 --> 30:56,140 So, because it'll take vast resources. Okay, new beat. This is B3. 492 30:56,420 --> 31:00,980 Our nation's best scientists working together. Right now, they're scattered. 493 31:01,400 --> 31:05,580 So I'm going to say B3 is his pitch for Los Alamos. 494 31:06,060 --> 31:10,280 I just love the arrogance of a guy to pitch his ranch as well. 495 31:10,680 --> 31:13,680 Yes. The Manhattan Project shouldn't face itself. 496 31:13,820 --> 31:16,940 Exactly. I happen to know a place that would be perfect. 497 31:17,920 --> 31:21,980 So right now, he's the best minds. He's talking about the Jewish brain drain 498 31:21,980 --> 31:25,720 from Europe. because of the persecution and the Holocaust. 499 31:26,100 --> 31:31,840 And he says, we have got them, but they're scattered, and we've got to put them in one place. 500 31:32,160 --> 31:35,420 And then Groves brings up this compartmentalization. 501 31:36,740 --> 31:41,660 So let's start reading that. Our nation's best scientists working together. Just start from there. 502 31:41,860 --> 31:45,340 Our nation's best scientists working together. Right now they're scattered. 503 31:45,580 --> 31:47,560 Which gives us compartmentalization. 504 31:48,020 --> 31:51,500 All minds have to see the whole task to contribute efficiently. 505 31:51,500 --> 31:55,680 Poor security may cost us the race, inefficiency will. 506 31:56,060 --> 31:58,400 The Germans know more than us anyway. 507 31:58,720 --> 31:59,760 The Russians don't. 508 31:59,820 --> 32:01,880 Remind me, who are we at war with? 509 32:02,220 --> 32:06,080 Someone with your past doesn't want to be seen downplaying the importance of 510 32:06,080 --> 32:07,900 security from our communist allies. 511 32:08,640 --> 32:10,740 Point taken. But no. 512 32:11,600 --> 32:12,960 You don't get to say no to me. 513 32:13,400 --> 32:15,740 It's my job to say no to you when you're wrong. 514 32:15,980 --> 32:17,100 You've got the job now? 515 32:17,340 --> 32:18,240 I'm considering it. 516 32:18,500 --> 32:21,880 I'm starting to see how you got your reputation. My favorite response? 517 32:22,500 --> 32:24,480 Oppenheimer couldn't run a hamburger stand. 518 32:25,060 --> 32:28,020 I couldn't, but I can run the Manhattan Project. 519 32:28,420 --> 32:33,520 Okay, now there's a shift. Now, this line, I'm starting to see how you got your reputation. 520 32:34,100 --> 32:38,240 Another mysterious line. I mean, it looks like he's a little bit of a put-down 521 32:38,240 --> 32:41,420 of Oppenheimer, but no, he likes that about him. 522 32:41,600 --> 32:47,900 Because he's talking about both the reputations, because Groves has a reputation for arrogance, too. 523 32:48,980 --> 32:55,020 And we've seen it in the scene when he throws the jacket at a lieutenant colonel, 524 32:55,020 --> 32:57,860 that he has a reputation for arrogance. 525 32:57,900 --> 33:02,180 He comes in there, he loosens his tie, he puts his arm up on a bookshelf or 526 33:02,180 --> 33:07,120 another chair, saying, you have a reputation for arrogance, just like me. 527 33:07,320 --> 33:08,700 That's a bonding moment. 528 33:09,300 --> 33:12,780 I actually think what's really interesting is about the you don't get to say 529 33:12,780 --> 33:15,880 no to me in a way to use colloquial terminology. 530 33:16,460 --> 33:21,520 It's kind of a bit of a shit test from Groves. He actually likes that Oppenheimer 531 33:21,520 --> 33:26,700 is able to speak his mind, but it's actually a bit of a test to see if Oppenheimer 532 33:26,700 --> 33:27,960 is going to wither a little bit. 533 33:28,600 --> 33:31,800 like in in my interpretation grows need 534 33:31,800 --> 33:34,620 someone who's going to speak his mind and because they need 535 33:34,620 --> 33:37,400 the win like they're fighting a war and trying to beat the 536 33:37,400 --> 33:40,500 nazis they don't need someone who's going to necessarily follow the 537 33:40,500 --> 33:43,200 party line in in a way so him saying you don't get to say 538 33:43,200 --> 33:49,160 no to me and i would say yes i do um he's actually a win grow saying so you've 539 33:49,160 --> 33:52,380 got the job now question mark it's actually you've definitely got the job now 540 33:52,380 --> 34:00,120 yeah right like it's like that's the The emotional event there is that acceptance 541 34:00,120 --> 34:01,220 of like, that's a good thing. 542 34:02,520 --> 34:07,640 And then the third part of the third beat is when he goes to the blackboard. 543 34:07,720 --> 34:10,840 That's the stage direction here. He goes to the blackboard, and that's how it's 544 34:10,840 --> 34:12,880 staged. He goes to the blackboard. 545 34:13,380 --> 34:15,300 There's a way to balance these things. 546 34:15,880 --> 34:19,140 So that's where we stopped when we did the big read-through, 547 34:19,260 --> 34:23,380 because you said that this is kind of moving into the last part of the… Yeah. 548 34:23,380 --> 34:26,220 This is like, I was thinking beat 3C. 549 34:27,020 --> 34:30,800 But in terms of the is there any more emotional event 550 34:30,800 --> 34:33,820 in this third part or is the 551 34:33,820 --> 34:36,860 reason we instinctively stopped because we actually had reached 552 34:36,860 --> 34:43,940 the emotional event you know they they started out sparring and then groves 553 34:43,940 --> 34:50,360 opens a window like opens a door for oppenheimer to pitch and then this third 554 34:50,360 --> 34:54,980 bit is them going like actually still sparring but agreeing essentially essentially, 555 34:55,000 --> 34:57,660 that he's got the job, that they're going to work together. 556 34:58,100 --> 35:02,720 I'm just looking for what happens. The first beat, they're sparring. 557 35:02,900 --> 35:06,300 They're fighting. They like to spar with each other. In the second beat, 558 35:06,360 --> 35:08,160 they're strategizing. That's different. 559 35:08,380 --> 35:13,360 They're strategizing. I do. It was great that you noticed that I hadn't noticed 560 35:13,360 --> 35:18,160 this, that in the first beat, Oppenheimer is asking the questions and the second beat, Groves is. 561 35:18,380 --> 35:22,160 I mean, because Oppenheimer knows physics and Groves doesn't, right? 562 35:22,820 --> 35:25,800 But Groves knows strategy. they're actually starting 563 35:25,800 --> 35:28,560 to work and so groves is asking him 564 35:28,560 --> 35:32,020 questions and oppenheimer is not saying look at what he's not saying he's not 565 35:32,020 --> 35:36,880 saying well i'll tell you that if you give me the job he's not saying that he's 566 35:36,880 --> 35:40,500 getting to work but then the third thing which has been on his mind from the 567 35:40,500 --> 35:46,020 beginning is he wants to get all these scientists and he wants to bring them to los alamos yeah. 568 35:46,020 --> 35:51,400 And my interpretation chas of your point about the is this the end of of the 569 35:51,400 --> 35:52,300 emotional event in the scene. 570 35:52,360 --> 35:58,360 No, I mean, I just see that the next section is actually ending from a page, 571 35:58,460 --> 36:01,200 a scene numbering count at the top of scene 67. 572 36:02,940 --> 36:06,620 As he pitches the idea, we start seeing it being built, right? 573 36:06,740 --> 36:11,200 And then it ends with Oppenheimer saying, welcome to Los Alamos. 574 36:11,560 --> 36:16,640 And they're there. So the emotional, like the end of that kind of beat is the 575 36:16,640 --> 36:18,240 success. Like the pitch worked. 576 36:18,680 --> 36:22,020 The change in relationship is they built it, right? 577 36:22,660 --> 36:26,740 For me, the scene doesn't actually end until where, you know, 578 36:26,760 --> 36:27,840 we physically move space. 579 36:28,160 --> 36:32,100 But it's the way it's written is it's like it's a continuation of the dialogue. 580 36:32,100 --> 36:35,920 And as he talks and pitches the idea, we kind of see it being built. 581 36:36,040 --> 36:39,720 And so we're beginning to see what he's talking about as actually happening. 582 36:39,840 --> 36:42,160 And then we see the success of it. 583 36:43,000 --> 36:47,340 Judith, I just wanted to know, you said that line about Oppenheimer couldn't 584 36:47,340 --> 36:50,220 run a hamburger stand wasn't a put down. 585 36:50,380 --> 36:55,420 And I agree. And it's that line that gives me the feeling that you said about 586 36:55,420 --> 36:59,760 what is Groves coming into the scene trying to achieve? 587 36:59,760 --> 37:04,240 Steve, because if he had heard from someone Oppenheimer couldn't run a hamburger 588 37:04,240 --> 37:07,940 stand and believed it, he wouldn't be in that room. 589 37:08,680 --> 37:13,820 Well, the roast doesn't like people who try to get a job by saying negative 590 37:13,820 --> 37:15,140 things about their competition. 591 37:16,060 --> 37:18,360 He doesn't like that kind of man at all. 592 37:19,720 --> 37:25,700 So those guys that say, oh, you know, he asked him about Oppenheimer and say, 593 37:25,780 --> 37:27,280 oh, he couldn't run a hamburger stand. 594 37:27,480 --> 37:29,520 That guy's out of the running. all. 595 37:29,520 --> 37:32,920 It's telling him is that obviously up and high if everyone is putting down oppenheimer 596 37:32,920 --> 37:35,240 then he is obviously the best one it's like. 597 37:35,240 --> 37:40,560 Yeah that's it if everyone is saying he's neurotic he's a womanizer he's a jerk 598 37:40,560 --> 37:42,940 that then that means he's the 599 37:42,940 --> 37:48,980 guy that they all have to beat so that's the guy i really have to see i'd. 600 37:48,980 --> 37:54,920 Just like to note that in this scene we're talking all about the the relationship 601 37:54,920 --> 38:00,860 between the characters and how riveting it is and how much it's actually moving. 602 38:00,940 --> 38:04,760 Like the scene is only three pages long, but it moves, 603 38:05,720 --> 38:10,160 back and forth so quickly and there's real shifts, but the amount of backstory 604 38:10,160 --> 38:14,780 and exposition that they've worked in there is huge. 605 38:15,040 --> 38:18,880 We've worked out that they've told us that Groves built the Pentagon. 606 38:19,240 --> 38:25,680 They've told us that the biggest problem engineering-wise is how much uranium ore they need to get. 607 38:25,860 --> 38:27,720 The issues around compartmentalization. 608 38:28,700 --> 38:31,720 Security, that they're concerned as much about Russia. 609 38:31,860 --> 38:35,980 We've got the scientific, scientific, even though they don't really go into 610 38:35,980 --> 38:37,800 the science, because none of us would understand it. 611 38:37,900 --> 38:43,200 Let's read this last bit, which is really lots of exposition, too. 612 38:43,720 --> 38:46,140 And I actually do, I'm going to 613 38:46,140 --> 38:49,400 bore you, Chas, but I do actually want to read to the bottom of page 50. 614 38:49,520 --> 38:49,860 Yeah, sure. 615 38:49,980 --> 38:52,220 Because it does a really interesting, because I think part of it, 616 38:52,260 --> 38:55,400 that the emotional event stuff that you're talking about and keeping us interested 617 38:55,400 --> 39:01,600 is the change in the rhythms of the dialogue that reflect the kind of the changing 618 39:01,600 --> 39:03,280 in the relationships between these two men. 619 39:03,500 --> 39:08,520 Please believe me, I'm not bored. I was just interested why we instinctively stopped at that point. 620 39:09,200 --> 39:13,060 I think it's a big bit. I think at this point Oppenheimer probably has won, 621 39:13,300 --> 39:17,200 but there is a difference between just winning the point and getting the job 622 39:17,200 --> 39:20,180 and actually seeing what we're about to see. All right. 623 39:20,320 --> 39:25,260 Now he's at the blackboard. And again, you know, I watched the scene again a 624 39:25,260 --> 39:30,020 few times and then in Grove's moves, he comes closer to the blackboard. 625 39:30,020 --> 39:35,320 He takes a chair, turns it around, and sits it in front of the blackboard like a student. 626 39:35,740 --> 39:41,840 I mean, this is brilliantly, brilliantly blocked and brilliantly written scene. 627 39:42,140 --> 39:46,680 Anyway, so let's read the rest. There's a way to balance these things. Starts there. 628 39:47,040 --> 39:52,060 There's a way to balance these things. Leave the rad lab here at Berkeley under 629 39:52,060 --> 39:54,920 Lawrence. Met lab in Chicago under Sillard. 630 39:55,300 --> 39:57,960 Large-scale refining, where did you say? Tennessee. to see? 631 39:58,260 --> 40:03,520 All America's industrial might and scientific innovation connected by rail focused 632 40:03,520 --> 40:09,000 on one goal, one point in space and time coming together here. 633 40:09,380 --> 40:13,840 Now, here's what I have to tell you. I think this conversation all took place in that room. 634 40:14,580 --> 40:20,880 Nolan made a very smart, I think, cinematic choice to show us what they're talking about. 635 40:21,260 --> 40:25,980 But in fact, this is all taking place in that room a. 636 40:25,980 --> 40:29,700 Secret laboratory in the middle of nowhere self-sufficient 637 40:29,700 --> 40:36,840 secure equipment housing the works we keep everyone there till it's done it'll 638 40:36,840 --> 40:43,020 need a school stores a church why if we don't let scientists bring their families 639 40:43,020 --> 40:48,620 we'll never get the best you want security build a town and build it fast where, 640 40:49,980 --> 40:54,960 Welcome to Los Alamos. There's a boys' school we'll have to commandeer and the 641 40:54,960 --> 40:57,200 local Indians come up here for burial rites. 642 40:57,340 --> 41:00,960 Other than that, nothing for 40 miles in any direction. 643 41:01,180 --> 41:05,980 And southeast, hundreds of miles of desert, enough to find the perfect spot. 644 41:06,840 --> 41:07,320 For? 645 41:08,060 --> 41:08,540 Success. 646 41:09,360 --> 41:12,980 It's funny that he says success. It's for, you know, pissing bombs. 647 41:13,040 --> 41:17,640 Blowing up. And I didn't think we would be getting into this section, 648 41:17,720 --> 41:21,360 so I didn't put the next page in our writing, but the next page is the button 649 41:21,360 --> 41:25,500 on the scene, which is Grove saying to Nichols, build this man a town. 650 41:26,700 --> 41:32,980 Success also works as a button in its own interesting way, you know? It's like... 651 41:32,980 --> 41:34,500 Well, they're not going to use 652 41:34,500 --> 41:39,040 the word bomb. They're using euphemisms for the word bomb all the time. 653 41:39,440 --> 41:44,420 They call it the gadget, they don't call it... Anyway, that's a lot of exposition, right? 654 41:44,960 --> 41:51,180 But what What makes it work is that the scene is not about the information, 655 41:51,280 --> 41:53,040 it's about the relationship. 656 41:53,580 --> 41:58,980 It's about two men discovering that they love working with each other. 657 41:59,520 --> 42:06,140 And actually, this relationship takes us all the way through Act 2 of the whole movie. 658 42:06,960 --> 42:12,280 This relationship is the centering string that takes us through all of Act Two, 659 42:12,340 --> 42:13,900 which is a lot of exposition. 660 42:14,100 --> 42:19,540 But the reason that it works is because it's about one central relationship, 661 42:19,780 --> 42:21,900 which is Oppenheimer and Groves. 662 42:22,340 --> 42:27,580 I'll just throw in my theories about Act One and Act Three, that Act Three is 663 42:27,580 --> 42:30,720 the relationship of Oppenheimer and Strauss. 664 42:30,980 --> 42:35,620 And then I have this kind of crazy theory. We should move on to the next thing. 665 42:35,620 --> 42:41,240 But I have this kind of crazy theory about Act One, which is it's kind of competing 666 42:41,240 --> 42:44,500 strands, two competing groups. 667 42:44,780 --> 42:51,060 They're the great men of science who he idolizes and also sometimes resents or fears. 668 42:51,320 --> 42:53,380 There's a group of them and he meets them all. 669 42:53,860 --> 42:56,740 So that's one group. And then women. 670 42:56,740 --> 43:04,260 and his compulsion, his inability to collect women notches in his belt and to 671 43:04,260 --> 43:08,100 pick the most difficult ones he can, you know, rainy, disturbed, 672 43:08,540 --> 43:11,660 unloving women, one after another. 673 43:12,060 --> 43:17,780 And both of those sort of as a group, women as a group, great men of science 674 43:17,780 --> 43:22,000 as a group, those are the relationships of the first act. 675 43:22,300 --> 43:26,400 And here's where I get all Freudian, that mother and his father. 676 43:26,740 --> 43:26,980 Yeah. 677 43:27,140 --> 43:30,800 Even though we never meet them and they're never spoken of, they are implied. 678 43:31,280 --> 43:34,380 Yeah. I was going to say, you get a sense that they're somewhere in there. 679 43:34,720 --> 43:40,780 Well, he was sent away to school. So, you know, it's the absence of them that, 680 43:40,840 --> 43:43,360 you know, drives that first act. 681 43:43,940 --> 43:46,880 Just a few quick straight observations for me. 682 43:47,280 --> 43:50,360 The connecting on that, I think that's actually as much as we were looking at 683 43:50,360 --> 43:55,540 the emotional event as on a scene level, right? The idea of looking at an act, 684 43:55,640 --> 43:59,700 looking at a sequence and going, what is the core relationship here? 685 44:00,620 --> 44:06,200 How does that change? I actually think it's a really useful tool for screenwriters. 686 44:06,520 --> 44:09,940 It's an important delivery system for plot. 687 44:10,340 --> 44:14,720 Yeah, but it will help connect emotion. And as we've talked about with stakes, 688 44:14,920 --> 44:18,920 Chas and I, we did an episode on stakes and we started realizing that stakes 689 44:18,920 --> 44:22,240 are about what people value and what people value is their relationship to things. 690 44:22,420 --> 44:25,600 So it's going to be connected to your stakes as well. All right. 691 44:25,760 --> 44:26,480 All right. 692 44:27,000 --> 44:32,400 Speaking of relationships that not only drive a whole act, but as Chas was pitching 693 44:32,400 --> 44:35,360 before, I'm stealing your thunder here, Chas. 694 44:36,420 --> 44:40,560 It's about time. I keep stealing your observations that you make off mic, so go for it, G. 695 44:41,580 --> 44:47,140 Well, you're just saying that the relationship in Casino Royale between Bond 696 44:47,140 --> 44:53,340 and Vespa absolutely drives the Daniel Craig Bond films for most of them, 697 44:53,340 --> 44:56,200 if not the whole series. What happens in this first film? 698 44:56,280 --> 45:00,800 And they realized the strength of that relationship was enough to kind of keep 699 45:00,800 --> 45:05,280 a character that was largely an unemotional, for lack of a better word, 700 45:05,380 --> 45:09,580 character in previous films had no attachments and were able to realize the 701 45:09,580 --> 45:11,600 power of using it to drive a whole film. 702 45:21,430 --> 45:28,530 How did he die? Your contact? Not well. You needn't worry. The second is... 703 45:29,770 --> 45:30,330 Yes. 704 45:32,510 --> 45:33,070 Considerably. 705 45:37,250 --> 45:40,810 The man was Le Chiffre, private banker to the world's terrorists, 706 45:41,210 --> 45:45,790 which would explain how he could set up a high-stakes poker game at Casino Royale in Montenegro. 707 45:45,790 --> 45:51,770 if he loses this game he'll have nowhere to run you're the best player in the service, 708 45:52,690 --> 45:58,950 the treasury has agreed to stake you in the game but if you lose our government 709 45:58,950 --> 46:04,010 will have directly financed terrorism i will be keeping my eye on our government's 710 46:04,010 --> 46:08,870 money and off your perfectly formed house you noticed. 711 46:08,870 --> 46:12,250 So casino royale 712 46:12,250 --> 46:15,810 is the the first daniel craig bond film the 713 46:15,810 --> 46:20,650 writer writing credits uh i was amused to see now this is we've got a script 714 46:20,650 --> 46:23,810 that was available online that has i'm not going to say the person but it does 715 46:23,810 --> 46:28,650 have a watermark on it so it is very clear who got this script out but the the 716 46:28,650 --> 46:33,190 credits on this version are a screenplay by neil purvis and and Robert Wade, 717 46:33,390 --> 46:37,730 and then second set of revisions by Paul Haggis in 2005. 718 46:38,150 --> 46:43,490 And the- I lobbied quite hard for these scenes to be in part of the homework 719 46:43,490 --> 46:47,450 because these two scenes, they're the two scenes- Bond and Vesper have just 720 46:47,450 --> 46:49,410 been engaged in a pretty brutal fistfight, 721 46:49,570 --> 46:53,570 which has ended with Bond killing a man by strangling him, in which Vesper was involved. 722 46:53,750 --> 47:00,990 And Vesper is an accountant, she was not a character of violence until this point in the movie. 723 47:01,640 --> 47:06,420 And then I just remember so strongly, and I still remember these two scenes 724 47:06,420 --> 47:09,040 in the bathroom after that fistfight. 725 47:09,200 --> 47:14,080 And we were looking for, Judith, just so you know, when we try to pick our homework, 726 47:14,140 --> 47:19,080 we try to pick a range of films, genres, stories, so that we can try and see 727 47:19,080 --> 47:22,240 the same tool working in different contexts. 728 47:22,660 --> 47:28,900 And it was so clear to me that these two scenes were there for emotional purposes. 729 47:29,040 --> 47:33,640 I couldn't enunciate better than that why. why and hopefully you can tell me i. 730 47:33,640 --> 47:36,300 Didn't watch the whole movie again i mean i saw it when 731 47:36,300 --> 47:39,660 i came out but i thought well maybe it's on youtube and 732 47:39,660 --> 47:44,200 you know i put casino royale and that's just the first thing that comes up oh 733 47:44,200 --> 47:49,920 really yeah oh wow yeah so it's a real emotional center to the movie anyway 734 47:49,920 --> 47:54,980 i i'm going to read some of the stage directions and you know you've just mentioned 735 47:54,980 --> 47:59,260 the writers and i don't mean to brag on them but i don't care for them very much, 736 48:00,760 --> 48:05,460 and i don't think that the actors followed them okay and that's the point that 737 48:05,460 --> 48:07,780 i want to make with this one i. 738 48:07,780 --> 48:08,720 Love a bit of controversy. 739 48:08,720 --> 48:14,400 But i gotta say i loved the character vesper i loved how she was written you 740 48:14,400 --> 48:18,620 know their first scene where they when they meet i thought oh gosh finally a 741 48:18,620 --> 48:23,500 bond girl who's really smart and really is his match you know so so i think 742 48:23,500 --> 48:27,380 they did a a great job writing Vesper for the most part. 743 48:28,080 --> 48:34,240 But, well, I'll say it right away. This is an example of a scene that's written from the male gaze. 744 48:34,660 --> 48:35,140 Definitely. 745 48:35,600 --> 48:40,840 But not performed that way. So, I don't know, you know, whether it was the director 746 48:40,840 --> 48:46,040 or the actors, but those actors were so strong and they were so connected to 747 48:46,040 --> 48:50,240 each other that I suspect that they got together and figured some things out together. 748 48:50,640 --> 48:54,100 Because some of the lines are left out. So anyway, uh, 749 48:55,200 --> 48:58,480 Bond lets himself in on doing his tie to reveal a creased shirt. 750 48:58,880 --> 49:03,260 Shadow bus, he sees Vesper's gown on the floor, empty wine bottle on the table. 751 49:03,340 --> 49:04,300 Here's her shower running. 752 49:05,120 --> 49:08,180 Tired and jaded, he doesn't think too much of it, pulls off his shirt. 753 49:08,300 --> 49:09,720 Yes, he has been sweating. 754 49:10,000 --> 49:13,780 He glances back at Vesper's suite, listens to the shower running, 755 49:13,960 --> 49:15,180 senses something's wrong. 756 49:16,140 --> 49:19,120 Vesper's bathroom, he enters, can't see her, now is becoming concerned. 757 49:19,200 --> 49:20,960 He sees a leg protruding from the shower. 758 49:21,060 --> 49:24,040 He turns the corner and finds her sitting in bra and panties. 759 49:24,040 --> 49:27,140 That's the male gaze. I'm sorry. She's wearing a dress in the movie. 760 49:28,480 --> 49:33,080 She's sitting there in a cocktail dress, and it's much stronger. 761 49:33,500 --> 49:36,840 Yeah. It's a stronger indication that she's in shock. 762 49:37,260 --> 49:41,100 Yeah. Clutching one knee to her chest, oblivious to the pelting water, 763 49:41,520 --> 49:44,740 James drops to the floor of the shower, throws his arm around her, 764 49:44,820 --> 49:48,520 and pulls her to him, letting the water run over both of them. 765 49:48,940 --> 49:53,680 Bond, shh. Vesper, you're all wet. Shh. That was all cut. But Vesper, 766 49:53,880 --> 49:55,400 I couldn't get the blood off. 767 49:55,520 --> 50:01,800 It's still under my nails. That line was changed to, there's blood on my hands. I can't get it off. 768 50:02,100 --> 50:05,800 Bond looks at his fingers, not a trace of blood. He puts each finger in his 769 50:05,800 --> 50:09,180 mouth and turn, not sexually, but as if to clean them. 770 50:09,320 --> 50:12,900 And of course, the non-sexual aspect of it is incredibly sexy. 771 50:13,100 --> 50:14,880 Okay, that's what I'm talking about, the male gaze. 772 50:15,980 --> 50:20,080 When done, Bond says, better. Vesper says, thanks. 773 50:20,240 --> 50:23,460 In the movie, she doesn't say thanks. she just gets 774 50:23,460 --> 50:26,780 closer to him bond you cold and 775 50:26,780 --> 50:29,500 then he turns the hot water on and then 776 50:29,500 --> 50:32,460 she appreciates the unusual and charming choice that he 777 50:32,460 --> 50:36,420 fails to acknowledge anything odd about her behavior she 778 50:36,420 --> 50:40,160 rests her head on his shoulder to sit there in the warm rain not saying a word 779 50:40,160 --> 50:48,160 anyway so they the actors played it not about sex but about love the emotional 780 50:48,160 --> 50:53,140 event is that these two are falling more deeply in love. 781 50:53,420 --> 50:57,000 So that's what I would call the emotional event. But putting it a different 782 50:57,000 --> 51:02,180 way to say what it's about, some of the writing makes it feel like it's about sex. 783 51:02,240 --> 51:04,240 And it's not about sex. It's about love. 784 51:04,840 --> 51:09,820 Yeah. I mean, even like she appreciates the unusual and charming choice. 785 51:10,060 --> 51:11,940 It's like this character is charming. 786 51:12,360 --> 51:15,420 But I think that is interesting, the love thing, because I also, 787 51:15,560 --> 51:19,800 for me, the emotional emotional event is about shared vulnerability, 788 51:20,260 --> 51:22,700 you know, she is feeling vulnerable and he, 789 51:23,720 --> 51:27,800 He's being vulnerable with her, you know, and I think shared vulnerability is 790 51:27,800 --> 51:29,680 a key part of being in love, I guess. 791 51:30,740 --> 51:31,220 Yeah. 792 51:31,380 --> 51:36,920 I think also I agree with you. It's about love. But to me, like the how does 793 51:36,920 --> 51:38,180 the character relationship change? 794 51:38,320 --> 51:42,900 They obviously do grow closer as a result of the scene. And that's kind of the 795 51:42,900 --> 51:44,640 importance of the scene existing. 796 51:44,760 --> 51:47,980 And to Stu's point, it's definitely about shared vulnerability. 797 51:48,120 --> 51:52,840 But it's the first time Bond has shown like a non-romantic form of love. 798 51:52,840 --> 51:57,600 Like an asexual form of love, a love that is about caring and nurturing. 799 51:57,980 --> 52:03,680 And that's why the big print probably feels such a smack, like such a contrast 800 52:03,680 --> 52:08,040 to the final film, is in the film you're saying it's asexual love, 801 52:08,360 --> 52:11,640 it's tenderness, where in this they can't keep on pointing out, 802 52:11,980 --> 52:16,140 oh, it's non-sexual, but that's actually what makes it really sexy. 803 52:16,340 --> 52:17,840 That makes it sexier than ever. 804 52:18,000 --> 52:19,280 Oh well. 805 52:19,280 --> 52:23,560 Well, and it's funny, I have to mention, you know, when I saw him put his fingers 806 52:23,560 --> 52:30,840 in his mouth, I hadn't heard a line about there's blood on my hands because the audio wasn't good. 807 52:31,040 --> 52:36,300 But the gesture reminded me of when I was a child and I grew up in a cold environment 808 52:36,300 --> 52:38,520 in New England, back east in the U.S. 809 52:39,160 --> 52:42,440 And, you know, in the winter, little kids' hands would get cold. 810 52:43,640 --> 52:48,940 Sometimes my mother would, if my hands were cold, she would take them and put them under her arms. 811 52:49,280 --> 52:54,000 you know to warm them and that's that's what it made me think of that that he 812 52:54,000 --> 52:59,500 was warming her there is a you know protective you know i'm going to take care 813 52:59,500 --> 53:05,420 of you even if you feel like a child and there is something like that but rather 814 53:05,420 --> 53:08,400 than saying it's not sexual mind up what it is. 815 53:09,640 --> 53:13,780 Yeah, imagine if it said, not sexually, but in a nurturing way. 816 53:14,020 --> 53:16,620 As soon as you're saying it's non-sexual, you're drawing people's attention 817 53:16,620 --> 53:19,400 to the ways in which, which is possibly why they've done it. 818 53:19,760 --> 53:21,980 I've had producers' notes about making stuff. 819 53:22,420 --> 53:26,280 Oh, this moment could be sexier. Can you make this moment sexier? And you're like, ugh. 820 53:27,660 --> 53:31,720 But I think, to your point, and in your books, you've talked about the magic 821 53:31,720 --> 53:34,280 of the as-if and how that's useful for direction. 822 53:34,440 --> 53:38,040 We've read, obviously, over 100 episodes, We've read a lot of different people's 823 53:38,040 --> 53:40,200 scripts and we've looked at so-called unfilmables. 824 53:40,300 --> 53:43,900 And sometimes lines like, he, 825 53:44,060 --> 53:48,080 you know, warms a hand, like he's a parent comforting a child is actually really 826 53:48,080 --> 53:51,180 effective in a screenplay as well, because you're giving the, 827 53:51,240 --> 53:55,520 you're engaging the imagination of the actor rather than just simply describing 828 53:55,520 --> 53:57,720 what you see. You're giving them something to play with. 829 53:57,860 --> 54:00,680 And I think that can be a really powerful tool. 830 54:00,980 --> 54:03,660 Again, I mean, this is me just plugging your book, but it's like, 831 54:03,680 --> 54:06,540 that's one of the reasons I think the book is really useful for actors because 832 54:06,540 --> 54:12,180 you sit there and go, in a way, the script is the first director of the actors. 833 54:12,420 --> 54:16,440 Sometimes actors will read a screenplay before they even have a chance to talk to the director. 834 54:16,560 --> 54:21,740 So the words the writer is using are going to inform how an actor is potentially 835 54:21,740 --> 54:22,920 going to approach the role. 836 54:23,160 --> 54:27,320 And so using some of these things that you've talked about as words on the page 837 54:27,320 --> 54:28,700 can be really quite powerful. 838 54:28,700 --> 54:34,140 I do know that the line, she appreciates the unusual and charming choice in 839 54:34,140 --> 54:38,180 that he fails to acknowledge anything odd about her behavior, if they just- 840 54:38,950 --> 54:41,130 the charming bit out. 841 54:41,370 --> 54:44,110 Just take that line out, but just take the whole sentence out. 842 54:44,290 --> 54:47,150 I was, I was going to say like to Sue's point, like you don't need it. 843 54:47,190 --> 54:50,250 You know, you could just have her leaning on his shoulder and that says everything 844 54:50,250 --> 54:52,110 about the emotional event. 845 54:52,210 --> 54:57,050 They have come closer, but I do think what it is that Bond has actually offered 846 54:57,050 --> 55:03,250 her that allows her to be closer to him is his complete absence of judgment 847 55:03,250 --> 55:06,370 of her, of she's wearing a dress in the shower. 848 55:06,770 --> 55:10,710 Well, but let's see, He got her into this. He got her into this. 849 55:10,750 --> 55:12,510 She didn't sign up to be an assassin. 850 55:12,810 --> 55:16,770 He signed up to be an assassin. She didn't. He got her into this. 851 55:16,870 --> 55:19,110 Okay? That's the basic fact. 852 55:19,430 --> 55:22,190 And he's obligated to take care of her. 853 55:23,010 --> 55:28,570 She's getting the emotional fallout. And he has to take some of that on for her. 854 55:28,850 --> 55:32,690 I mean, I certainly read that into the symbolism of him taking her fingers into 855 55:32,690 --> 55:36,350 his mouth is to me him kind of being, 856 55:36,450 --> 55:39,690 for lack of a better word, like a bit of a sin eater i mean except it's his 857 55:39,690 --> 55:44,730 sins but it's like this isn't the blood on your hands this is this is blood 858 55:44,730 --> 55:47,370 that i put there that that is something that i i read into it. 859 55:47,370 --> 55:50,350 There you go okay at the sin eater but yeah oh wow. 860 55:50,350 --> 55:54,690 But i think that's why it's such a powerful gesture because it's got a degree 861 55:54,690 --> 55:59,550 of like there's a physical intimacy to it so you can kind of read it just on 862 55:59,550 --> 56:04,550 a level of of physical intimacy between two people but you can read the gesture 863 56:04,550 --> 56:06,930 as having kind of a symbolic meaning beyond that, 864 56:07,030 --> 56:09,830 but it doesn't try to dictate it to it. 865 56:09,870 --> 56:12,750 So I actually think it makes it powerful because people can fill that gap. 866 56:13,760 --> 56:18,040 Could we possibly throw the writer's a bone here and say that the emotional 867 56:18,040 --> 56:23,140 event that they have put in this scene through the dramatization, 868 56:23,240 --> 56:29,080 through what the actors are actually doing, has survived the possible producer pass of make this sexy? 869 56:31,040 --> 56:32,420 Well, sure. Sure. 870 56:35,540 --> 56:41,620 Well, anyway, I think that Daniel Craig and Ava Greene had a lot to do with 871 56:41,620 --> 56:45,860 saying it's going to be stronger if she's just gotten into the shower without 872 56:45,860 --> 56:47,360 taking off her cocktail dress. 873 56:47,600 --> 56:51,020 I mean, it makes more emotional sense anyway. 874 56:51,340 --> 56:56,140 She walks into a room, she tries to pour a glass of wine. And the thing is that 875 56:56,140 --> 56:58,000 it's not an empty wine bottle. 876 56:58,120 --> 57:01,020 There's a glass of wine that's broken. broken so to 877 57:01,020 --> 57:05,500 me she's tried to pour a glass of wine and but her hand is shaking and the glass 878 57:05,500 --> 57:10,200 breaks and then she just stumbles into the bathroom and gets under the water 879 57:10,200 --> 57:13,880 and she gets under cold water because she feels she deserves to be punished 880 57:13,880 --> 57:18,600 so i'm going how did this scene come about and. 881 57:18,600 --> 57:22,020 That's a really powerful example i think if you using 882 57:22,020 --> 57:26,640 what i would call given circumstances uh you'd probably think you'd kind of 883 57:26,640 --> 57:30,380 call it the big fat facts or you know you just looked at what's written in the 884 57:30,380 --> 57:33,320 scene and going this is that she's used cold water and you've kind of built 885 57:33,320 --> 57:38,940 the emotional understanding of that based on the very simple facts of the scene. 886 57:38,940 --> 57:45,440 Yeah but i also imagine how would a real person get it how would this happen to a real person real. 887 57:45,440 --> 57:49,240 Person yeah shall we move on to past lives. 888 57:49,240 --> 57:52,980 Okay okay there's. 889 57:52,980 --> 58:00,240 A word in korean Korean, inyeon, it means providence or fate. 890 58:01,180 --> 58:06,160 Do you believe in that? That's just something Koreans say to seduce someone. 891 58:21,230 --> 58:24,850 childhood sweethearts who reconnect 20 years later and realize they were meant 892 58:24,850 --> 58:30,770 for each other in the story i would be the evil white american husband standing in the way of destiny, 893 58:31,390 --> 58:34,310 shut up he's just this kid in my 894 58:34,310 --> 58:42,150 head for such a long time i think he just missed him did he miss you all. 895 58:42,150 --> 58:48,210 Right this is very clearly in three sections right uh the first section the 896 58:48,210 --> 58:49,370 three of them are talking. 897 58:49,650 --> 58:52,190 The second section, Nora and 898 58:52,190 --> 58:57,290 Hyesung are talking together in Korean with Arthur still sitting there. 899 58:57,450 --> 59:03,750 The third section, Nora has gone to the bathroom and Hyesung and Arthur speak 900 59:03,750 --> 59:06,150 to each other. So we'll stop after each. 901 59:06,430 --> 59:11,170 I mostly want to talk about some amazing interviews that I read with Celine 902 59:11,170 --> 59:16,610 Fong that I think are very useful, but shall we read it Would that be fun? 903 59:16,750 --> 59:20,590 Yeah. I'll just, for the sake of the record, give a little bit of introduction 904 59:20,590 --> 59:22,850 for those who haven't seen it, though you should. 905 59:22,910 --> 59:27,290 It's a fantastically beautifully directed, beautifully written film. Yeah. 906 59:27,490 --> 59:29,830 It's a written, directed by Celine Song. 907 59:30,130 --> 59:35,170 And it follows, on one level, it follows two childhood friends over the course of 24 years. 908 59:35,650 --> 59:40,370 But really, it's about Nora. She emigrates to America when she's 12, 909 59:40,470 --> 59:45,170 and she kind of leaves a boy behind in Korea. And then we follow her as an adult, 910 59:45,410 --> 59:50,090 and she ends up marrying an American called Arthur. 911 59:50,610 --> 59:54,690 And then Haesung, her kind of, I'm going to use the word crush, 912 59:55,010 --> 59:57,250 but there's, you know, he's important to her. 913 59:57,510 --> 01:00:01,350 And I think it is more than a crush, but he comes to visit her in America.

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2:12:17 bearbeiten, sondern da mache ich jetzt mal einen schönen Area of Effect,

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03:13 area

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1:28:07 und genau und da war dann halt so die Play Area, so eine kleine Kasse und dann 1:28:07 und genau und da war dann halt so die Play Area, so eine kleine Kasse und dann