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What makes it work is that the scene is not about the information.
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It's about the relationship.
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Hi, I'm Chas Fisher.
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And I'm Stu Willis.
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And welcome to DraftZero, a podcast where two Aussie filmmakers try to work
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out what makes great screenplays work.
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And in this episode, we are going to be talking about the emotional event.
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We are joined by Judith Weston, a teacher of directors, actors,
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and writers, and she has been teaching since 1985.
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Her students include Taika Waititi, Alejandro Gonzalez Inarratu,
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Ava DuVernay, Boots Riley, and Alma Harrell. Her books, Directing Actors and
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The Film Director's Intuition, are absolute classics.
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They are books that I read very early on in my career and I still reread.
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And not only have they influenced my career, I would say they've influenced
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just the way I live my life.
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So welcome to the show, Judith. We are so very excited to have you here.
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Thank you so much for inviting me.
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So good. So the kind of overall thing that we're going to be talking about is
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the emotional event, which is an idea that in the 25th anniversary edition of
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directing actors, you kind of brought a little bit more to the forefront.
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It's been there in your work. And we're going to be talking about scenes from
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Oppenheimer, Casino Royale, and past lives.
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So the idea of the emotional event is something that struck me as a director,
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but I think it absolutely applies to screenwriters as well.
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And look, it's very common for people to talk about like a scene scene needing
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to have a plot event, that the scene needs to turn,
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and the idea of looking at your scene, and not looking at it from a plot perspective,
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but looking at it from an emotional perspective, what is an emotional event,
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is a really useful one for screenwriters, I think, but actors and directors as well.
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So, can you kind of give us a little bit of an introduction into what you think
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of as an emotional event?
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Okay, I will try. The thing is, what actually really excited me about doing
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this podcast with you is that the best way to describe it is through examples.
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People find it abstract somehow or hard to grasp.
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And in fact, that's why I wrote this 25th anniversary edition of Directing Actors,
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because in the original Directing Actors, I referred to emotional events.
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But all that time After that, I was teaching. I've been teaching for 35 years.
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And as I taught, and after the book came out, I would require it.
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People had to read it before they took the workshop, Acting for Directors,
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which was my flagship workshop for a long time.
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And when I would ask them what they were hoping to learn, they would say,
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you know, I'm a little bit confused about emotional event.
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And everybody said that. They said it over and over. over.
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And I also taught classes that had directors and actors in them,
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and that sometimes they would rehearse outside of class and bring in the scene.
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And then at the end, I would ask people, you know, how the rehearsal went and what they worked on.
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And then I would say to the directors, so what's the emotional event?
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They would all sort of hit their heads and go, oh, I knew she was going to ask
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me that, but they hadn't been able to figure it out.
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And so I just always knew that I had to make this clearer somehow.
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So I really tried to do that in this 25th anniversary edition.
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And then also my other book, Film Director's Intuition, just this past fall,
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I was asked to do an audiobook version.
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And that's coming out April 30th. That's going to drop on April 30th.
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But I did a lot of rewriting on the Film Director's Intuition because that was
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was already 20 years old too.
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And, you know, like really, really trying to delve into this,
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because I do believe that an understanding of emotional event is the thing that
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makes a person a director instead of just a person who points a camera at something.
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And certainly Mike Nichols talks about it all the time.
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And Sidney Lumet, you know, all the great directors who were also Also teachers
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who also had an interest in mentoring younger directors.
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They always talked. Another way of thinking of it is what the scene is about.
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I think what's interesting, because we have talked about the idea of scenes
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having a thematic question, which is what is the scene about?
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But on a thematic level, and I think what is the emotional event is another
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is like, what is the scene about emotionally?
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And that is different from a scene being thematic, which can be a little bit
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more intellectual. You know, what strikes me about your work and the way you
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think about directing actors is it puts so much emphasis on relationships.
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And I think that is such a powerful tool for writers to go, because it's very
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easy to get caught up in thinking of your characters as individuals,
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as opposed to people within kind of a web of relationships.
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And I think what's really useful of the emotional event is, from my understanding
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of it, I always think of it as, what is the relationship change between these two or more characters?
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Exactly. How is the relationship different at the end of the scene than it was at the beginning?
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That's the simplest way to put it. you know
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what changes in the emotional temperature and it
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could be a very small change and it could
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be a change in power change in power status and
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it could be a change in intimacy i mean
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those are two usual changes either it's a change in intimacy they become more
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intimate or they become more estranged or a change of power relationship those
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are kind of the usual ways and every scene has to to have one if it doesn't
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have it it's got to go yeah.
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And that's where it's it's going to be hugely
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valuable for writers and not just directors and actors like sue and i have done
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100 odd episodes now and we have looked in at discrete character tools like
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what's the character question of a scene usually looking at the protagonist
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of the scene how to best dramatize character character motivations from a writing perspective.
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And we've done what we call status transactions and tactics and all those things
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were different, I guess, dials or aspects that I was reading in your book,
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especially the chapter on the emotional event.
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But I don't think we've ever just taken this big step back and gone,
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all right, in a scene, how does the relationship between these these characters change?
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You know, having read your book, I'm now like, that's a really obvious question to ask.
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But I was not asking it really beforehand, unless Stu, who had read your book, was forcing me to.
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I mean, I think your comment about every scene should have it.
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This will help transition a little bit towards talking about Oppenheimer.
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Right. Because I think what you're talking about, like, what struck me,
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and I've used an excerpt in one of my, I occasionally teach,
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and in my class in exposition, I actually play a little clip of you talking
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about every scene needs an emotional event.
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I don't think you use the word especially, but the emphasis I'm putting on it
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is especially scenes that you think is expository.
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If you think the scene is just there to give the audience information,
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then you need to look into it further and find out what the emotional event is.
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And what struck me in prepping for this when we decided to do Oppenheimer is
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it's a film that it's got so much information.
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So much information.
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And makes it emotional. Like it was more successful for me in that regard than, than Chaz.
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I mean, we, he still liked it. I just really liked it. And part of it was like,
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yeah, it takes so much information and makes it emotional.
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And I think that's why it somehow resonated with a lot of people because of
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the emotional quality, not because we're listening to a lecture from Oppenheimer
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about physics, but the fact that somehow there's this emotional subtext to what
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he's saying about physics.
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We polled our patrons in selecting the films, but when we came to actually selecting the the scenes.
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You were part of those initial emails back and forth, Judith,
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where we were going, do we do three scenes from each film, five scenes from each film?
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And finally, reason prevailed and we picked one scene from each film.
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This is a perfect one. This is just fantastic. I'm so glad you chose this one. I love it.
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I had so much fun preparing for this. I really did. I read it over and over
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and I watched the the movie again.
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I should say, I come to Oppenheimer with some baggage because I had watched,
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there was a TV series back 10 more years ago called Manhattan.
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So I came to that feeling like that was the real Los Alamos.
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And the first time I watched Oppenheimer on the big screen, I was a little bit
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distracted because when I got to Los Alamos, I was thinking,
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That's not the way it was.
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You're describing an experience that Chaz and I call, that's not how time travel works.
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Because you're so used to the rules of another film that you can't help and bring that baggage.
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That's not what happened at Los Alamos.
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Yeah, yeah. So we're going to, at your request, we're going to be reading the parts of the script.
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Let me put it my way.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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I asked them if they would mind reading the script aloud. loud.
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And then I asked them not to prepare.
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I asked them to decide among themselves who's going to read which,
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but not to read it in a monotone, you know, not to read it, you know, with deliberately,
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uninflected, but to read it like they're two men talking, not like it's a colonel
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and a physicist talking, but a little bit slower than usual conversation.
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And I just find that very useful to go a little bit lower at first,
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because you can let the words hit you a little bit.
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Yeah. I mean, I'm just going to discuss this a little bit before we dive into it.
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Yes. Okay.
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Because Chas and I had a script reading for one of our projects on Monday.
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One of my friends is doing their master's.
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And I was like, oh, a bunch of film students might be excited to do a feature read-through.
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and we sent them the script and with some
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notes but said look we don't expect you to prepare it's really just
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there if you're feeling anxious
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and want to prepare but we'd prefer you didn't because
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we just basically wanted them to be in the experience in real time as the characters
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because it's really about us sitting back and listening to it and going oh that
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lands that doesn't land and if they're prepared they might be overselling something
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or underselling something link or playing a moment as informed by a moment in the future,
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if that makes sense. So it's not emotionally true to the moment.
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But I was curious about your reasons for doing it because we found it very valuable
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and it was interesting that basically at the same time, you had said something similar about us.
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So what is the kind of the thinking, you know, is it just to let the words hit you?
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What are some of those usefulness if people are doing their own reading?
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Well, when I'm doing it in a class, I say, you know, just let the words live in the air.
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That's the only way that I think of it, you know, because I don't want to intellectualize
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it. And OK, I'll be honest.
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It's to get away from thinking about result, you know, to think about whether
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you're doing a good job of performing.
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Yeah, great.
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Amazing. Thank you.
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And also, you know, it's for the audience here so they can hear it.
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I'm assuming some people listen to your podcast in their cars, right?
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Some crazy people listen to it at three times speed.
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Oh, okay.
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We had one listener going, I finished this in the episode. And we're like,
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it came out half an hour ago. And he's like, yeah, listen to it at three times speed.
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All right. Well, then they will defeat me with my little plan here.
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But yeah, they won't have the script in front of them. So in order for me to
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talk about it and to hear it out loud.
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All right. So just before we go to the reading, you've also asked us for Oppenheimer
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and Past Lives to not read the big print or stage directions,
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as you call them, or action lines.
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We're just going to be focusing on the dialogue in terms of the read.
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If I see a stage direction that I think needs to be read, I will read it.
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Oh, great.
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But most of them don't.
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All right. So Oppenheimer? Oppenheimer?
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The Nazis have a bomb.
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They have a 12-month head start. 18. How could you possibly know that?
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We've got one hope. All America's industrial might and scientific innovation connected here.
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Secret laboratory.
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Keep everyone there until it's done.
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I mean, it's obviously the best picture winner and a lot of people saw it,
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But this is the story of Oppenheimer's role in the development of the atomic bomb in World War II.
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And specifically, we're looking at a scene where the US Army Colonel Leslie
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Groves, who's played by Matt Damon, effectively is recruiting Oppenheimer to
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be the director of the Los Alamos Laboratory.
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So this is the scene where they meet for the first time. and
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maybe this is a little bit too early to say this but when it struck me reading
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it was that mike nichols line about you know every scene's like a seduction
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or an interrogation and i felt like this scene was a little bit like a seduction
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but that's the that's kind of the scene is is groves coming in and talking to um oppenheimer all.
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Right fire away steve.
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Dr oppenheimer i'm I'm Colonel Groves. This is Lieutenant Colonel Nichols. Get that dry cleaned.
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If that's how you treat a lieutenant colonel, I'd hate to see how you treat a humble physicist.
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If I ever meet one, I'll let you know.
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Ouch.
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Heaters of combat all over the world, but I have to stay in Washington.
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Why?
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I built the Pentagon. The brass likes it so much they made me take over the
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Manhattan Engineer District.
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Which is?
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Don't be a smartass. You know damn well what it is. You and half of every physics
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department across America. That's problem number one.
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I thought problem number one would be securing enough uranium ore.
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1,200 tons. Bought the day I took charge.
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Processing?
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Just broke ground at Oak Ridge, Tennessee. Now I'm looking for a project director.
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And my name came up.
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Nope. Even though you brought quantum physics to America, that made me curious.
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What have you found out?
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You're a Dylan Dante, womaniser, suspected communist.
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I'm a New Deal Democrat.
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I said suspected. Unstable, theatrical, egotistical, neurotic.
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Nothing good. Not even he's brilliant, but...
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Brilliance is taken for granted in your circles, so no.
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Only one person said anything good, Richard Tolman.
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He thinks you've got integrity, but Tolman strikes me as someone who knows science better than people.
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Yet here you are. You don't take much on trust.
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I don't take anything on trust. Why don't you have a Nobel Prize?
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Why aren't you a general?
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They're making me one for this.
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Maybe I'll have the same luck.
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A Nobel Prize for making a bomb.
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Alfred Nobel invented dynamite.
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So how would you proceed?
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You're talking about turning theory into a practical weapons system faster than the Nazis.
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Who have had a 12-month head start?
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18.
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How could you possibly know that?
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Our fast neutron research took six months. The man they've undoubtedly put in
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charge will have made that leap instantly.
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Who do you think they put in charge?
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Werner Heisenberg. He has the most intuitive understanding of atomic structure I have ever seen.
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You know his work?
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I know him. Just like I know Walter Both, von Beisacker, Diebner.
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In a straight race, the Germans win. We've got one hope.
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Which is?
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Antisemitism.
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What?
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Hitler called quantum physics Jewish science. Said it right to Einstein's face.
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Our one hope is that Hitler's so blinded by hate he's denied Heisenberg proper resources.
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Because it will take vast resources. Our nation's best scientists working together.
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Right now they're scattered.
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Which gives us compartmentalisation.
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All minds have to see the whole task to contribute efficiently.
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Poor security may cost us the race. Inefficiency will. will.
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The Germans know more than us anyway.
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The Russians don't.
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Remind me, who are we at war with?
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Someone with your past doesn't want to be seen downplaying the importance of
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security from our communist allies.
262
16:44,620 --> 16:46,500
Point taken. But no.
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16:47,020 --> 16:48,680
You don't get to say no to me.
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It's my job to say no to you when you're wrong.
265
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You've got the job now?
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16:54,480 --> 16:55,400
I'm considering it.
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I'm starting to see how you got your reputation. My favorite response,
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16:59,840 --> 17:01,540
Oppenheimer couldn't run a hamburger stand.
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17:01,880 --> 17:04,880
I couldn't, but I can run the Manhattan Project.
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17:05,460 --> 17:10,180
Such a long scene. Let's stop for a second. The one thing that I try to do first
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17:10,180 --> 17:12,600
is break it into beats, okay?
272
17:13,040 --> 17:15,620
You know, when I'm trying to understand a scene, it helps me,
273
17:15,660 --> 17:17,340
you know, start to get a handle on it.
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And I think what you've just said is, oh, it's the end of the first sub beat of the third beat.
275
17:24,480 --> 17:27,560
So let's go back again and read the first beat.
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I'm going to say that I think that the first beat goes until Oppenheimer's line,
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17:34,320 --> 17:37,540
Alfred Nobel invented dynamite. Okay.
278
17:38,120 --> 17:42,560
And I'm going to say that's the first beat of the scene. You know,
279
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I'm glad you brought up Mike Nichols' suggestion that the emotional advantage
280
17:47,380 --> 17:51,820
of a scene is either a seduction, a negotiation, or a fight.
281
17:52,100 --> 17:57,680
You could see this as a seduction, but I sort of see it as a chess match.
282
17:57,940 --> 18:03,240
I see them both making points. I certainly think Oppenheimer wants the job.
283
18:03,300 --> 18:08,500
And his line when he says, oh, what's the Manhattan Engineer District?
284
18:08,840 --> 18:11,140
You know, of course, he knows very well what it is.
285
18:11,800 --> 18:18,300
And so certainly he wants the job, but, you know, there's something about this
286
18:18,300 --> 18:21,880
first beat where they, they spar with each other.
287
18:21,960 --> 18:26,320
It's more like banter or sparring, or I thought of it as chess match.
288
18:26,540 --> 18:30,320
And then when I went back and looked at the scene again, I saw,
289
18:30,520 --> 18:36,260
you know, Groves comes in the room and sits down and Oppenheimer pulls up a
290
18:36,260 --> 18:39,420
chair across from him. It's about five feet.
291
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It's big enough for a chess table in between them.
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It is.
293
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So it's not getting too close. It's not invading somebody's personal space,
294
18:49,440 --> 18:53,740
but it's face-to-face on the same level.
295
18:54,000 --> 18:57,140
It's what in fencing we would call being in wide measure.
296
18:57,260 --> 19:02,900
So it's far enough just to be able to touch the person, but not too close that
297
19:02,900 --> 19:04,760
you're really putting yourself too much at risk.
298
19:04,980 --> 19:10,320
Okay. Okay. Great. But they each get wins. They win back and forth.
299
19:10,740 --> 19:13,920
And Oppenheimer lets him win sometimes.
300
19:14,800 --> 19:19,860
So let's read this first beat again and just see how that goes.
301
19:20,240 --> 19:24,780
And I will read the stage direction about tossing his uniform jacket to the...
302
19:24,780 --> 19:28,200
That does matter, so I'll read that.
303
19:29,280 --> 19:33,360
Dr. Oppenheimer, I'm Colonel Groves. This is Lieutenant Colonel Nichols.
304
19:33,540 --> 19:36,740
He pulls off his uniform jacket and tosses it to Nichols.
305
19:36,960 --> 19:38,160
Get that dry cleaned.
306
19:38,400 --> 19:39,060
Nichols leave.
307
19:39,320 --> 19:42,880
If that's how you treat a lieutenant colonel, I'd hate to see how you treat a humble physicist.
308
19:43,300 --> 19:45,320
If I ever meet one, I'll let you know.
309
19:45,820 --> 19:46,260
Ouch.
310
19:46,680 --> 19:51,920
Okay. Win for Groves, and Oppenheimer lets him have the win. Ouch.
311
19:53,400 --> 19:59,000
But Groves gets the win. Oppenheimer jumps right in. I'm going to be equal to you.
312
19:59,280 --> 20:02,240
I'm going to call you on how you treat people.
313
20:03,000 --> 20:09,460
And then Rose calls him on that no physicists are humble. And also,
314
20:09,520 --> 20:10,760
that's a mysterious line.
315
20:10,900 --> 20:13,080
If I ever meet one, I'll let you know.
316
20:13,320 --> 20:18,940
I think it suggests, I think it's a clue to the fact that he's been meeting a lot of physicists.
317
20:20,080 --> 20:24,440
He's been meeting a lot of people who have been pitching themselves for this job.
318
20:24,680 --> 20:29,300
Okay? And he doesn't like a single one of them. He hates physicists.
319
20:30,080 --> 20:33,900
Okay. And I think that's something that he brings in here, you know,
320
20:33,920 --> 20:38,340
eat another jackass who's going to try to pitch himself. And anyway.
321
20:39,120 --> 20:44,420
Yeah. Ouch. Theaters of combat all over the world, but I have to stay in Washington.
322
20:44,820 --> 20:45,300
Why?
323
20:46,020 --> 20:50,020
I built the Pentagon. The brass likes it so much they made me take over the
324
20:50,020 --> 20:52,020
Manhattan Engineer District.
325
20:52,660 --> 20:53,320
Which is?
326
20:53,580 --> 20:57,860
Oh, don't be a smartass. You know damn well what it is. You and half of every
327
20:57,860 --> 21:01,240
physics department across America. That's problem number one.
328
21:01,480 --> 21:05,020
Yeah, just another thing. Problem number one. Problem number one is I have to
329
21:05,020 --> 21:07,060
spend time with all these jackasses.
330
21:09,180 --> 21:09,640
Yeah.
331
21:09,800 --> 21:10,260
Okay.
332
21:10,520 --> 21:13,580
It'd be so much easier to run the Manhattan Project without physicists.
333
21:13,940 --> 21:17,080
Well, it'd be so much easier for him to be in combat.
334
21:17,900 --> 21:20,580
Yes. Yeah, theaters of combat all over the world, yeah.
335
21:20,800 --> 21:23,500
That's what he's saying. Theaters of combat all over the world.
336
21:23,500 --> 21:26,520
I'd much rather be in the Philippines.
337
21:26,680 --> 21:30,360
I'd much rather be in Guam. I'd much rather be in- Europe.
338
21:30,480 --> 21:30,640
Yeah.
339
21:30,940 --> 21:34,940
Preferably Europe, okay? So that's where he wants to be.
340
21:35,080 --> 21:39,000
He doesn't want to be doing any of this Washington stuff at all,
341
21:39,040 --> 21:42,180
and he definitely doesn't want to be meeting with jackasses,
342
21:42,380 --> 21:44,780
all trying to tell him how smart they are.
343
21:45,380 --> 21:48,880
Which is Oppenheimer's almost telling him how smart he is with the,
344
21:49,020 --> 21:53,080
I thought problem Problem number one would be securing enough uranium ore.
345
21:53,320 --> 21:58,500
And I love just from a writing perspective that it's kind of done what we've
346
21:58,500 --> 22:02,200
called hook and eye, which is basically Grove says problem number one.
347
22:02,200 --> 22:06,500
And then Oppenheimer's dialogue starts with using the same words.
348
22:06,580 --> 22:10,700
It kind of connects it. So he's picking up on the problem number one and saying,
349
22:10,780 --> 22:13,740
actually, are you sure it's not uranium ore?
350
22:14,080 --> 22:17,800
Well, Oppenheimer takes his first win. And, you know, in terms of emotional
351
22:17,800 --> 22:21,040
event, that's how I'm seeing it. Oppenheimer takes his first win.
352
22:21,220 --> 22:22,860
He's saying, you know what?
353
22:23,300 --> 22:27,300
Our personalities are not the problem. The problem is beating the Germans.
354
22:28,530 --> 22:31,750
And then Groves has to respond to that with, well, actually,
355
22:31,910 --> 22:34,550
I've got it sorted. We've already got 1,200 tons.
356
22:34,850 --> 22:39,510
Bought the day I took charge. I love the use of the I there because it's him
357
22:39,510 --> 22:42,830
establishing his bona fides in front of Oppenheimer.
358
22:43,290 --> 22:47,950
It's not that they have 1,200 tons. It's that he got them to do it the very
359
22:47,950 --> 22:50,970
first thing. Him saying to Oppenheimer, I'm not an idiot.
360
22:51,250 --> 22:54,790
So now Groves is starting to approve his bona fides.
361
22:55,950 --> 22:56,390
Okay?
362
22:56,390 --> 22:59,830
Okay. Oppenheimer has put him in the position of proving his bona fides.
363
23:00,130 --> 23:02,370
That's why I say it's a win for Oppenheimer.
364
23:02,610 --> 23:07,170
Yeah. Here's an interesting question, and I'd have to rewatch the scene.
365
23:07,510 --> 23:11,790
Do you think Groves is coming in here going, I think Oppenheimer is the best,
366
23:11,830 --> 23:13,850
but I need to see if he's someone I can work with?
367
23:14,590 --> 23:18,390
Or it's him actually assessing whether or not he's capable of the job?
368
23:18,790 --> 23:19,750
Wait, what do you think?
369
23:20,590 --> 23:24,070
I mean, I phrased it as a question, but as I'm reading through this,
370
23:24,170 --> 23:30,350
I'm like, feels like Groves has basically almost said that he's met a whole bunch of physicists.
371
23:30,650 --> 23:34,770
He knows all of them are probably quite capable of doing the science,
372
23:34,830 --> 23:37,950
but he needs someone that's more than that.
373
23:38,090 --> 23:42,130
He needs someone who's actually going to solve the bigger project.
374
23:42,510 --> 23:46,550
I think he is testing the waters to see if Oppenheimer is that person,
375
23:46,630 --> 23:48,570
but he also needs Oppenheimer to approve him.
376
23:48,830 --> 23:52,610
I thought that's what was interesting about the 1,200 tons bought the day I
377
23:52,610 --> 23:56,770
took charge, is it's much about making Oppenheimer impressed by him.
378
23:56,870 --> 23:58,070
He needs Oppenheimer's approval.
379
23:58,310 --> 24:01,530
Because if Oppenheimer is the right person, if he goes in there knowing that,
380
24:01,610 --> 24:05,650
it's like, I actually need Oppenheimer to feel like we can be equals and work on this project.
381
24:05,970 --> 24:10,830
I think he needs to find out if Oppenheimer is someone he could stand to be around.
382
24:11,910 --> 24:15,990
Whoever this person is, they're going to be spending a lot of time together.
383
24:16,980 --> 24:22,300
And that's what I think the emotional event is, is that they discover they can work together.
384
24:22,480 --> 24:26,380
They discover they can tolerate each other or even like each other.
385
24:26,740 --> 24:29,520
Okay. That's why I say it's emotional.
386
24:31,140 --> 24:35,980
But they take all the steps along the way, you know, in this little fencing
387
24:35,980 --> 24:40,840
match, chess match, where they're getting little hits on each other. And they like that.
388
24:41,020 --> 24:43,320
They like to have a good sparring partner.
389
24:43,320 --> 24:50,700
I really like in Judith, you identified the Nobel Prize being the first major beat in the scene.
390
24:50,860 --> 24:54,820
I feel like there's a minor sub beat in the next line that we're about to talk
391
24:54,820 --> 24:58,500
about where Grove says just broke ground at Oak Ridge, Tennessee, full stop.
392
24:58,660 --> 25:03,000
Now I'm looking for a project director. They both knew coming into the scene
393
25:03,000 --> 25:05,520
that that's what this is. they.
394
25:05,520 --> 25:08,360
Both know that he knows that that's what this is about.
395
25:08,360 --> 25:11,540
But finally it's been said out loud that that's
396
25:11,540 --> 25:14,300
what this is so the to me the initial section of
397
25:14,300 --> 25:17,660
the scene is like you say the sparring this back and forth establishing of bona
398
25:17,660 --> 25:21,600
fides and now they're actually going to talk it comes out of subtext into text
399
25:21,600 --> 25:25,960
we're now going to talk about why we're here but i agree with you fully that
400
25:25,960 --> 25:30,420
that there's a beat next because i feel like oppenheimer doesn't change his
401
25:30,420 --> 25:31,880
approach to the interaction,
402
25:32,080 --> 25:36,480
to the relationship until that Alfred Noble line, because it's interesting,
403
25:36,620 --> 25:39,620
a lot of his lines, you can just see it visually on the page.
404
25:40,100 --> 25:44,960
Groves has got lots of chunks of text, multiple sentences, you know,
405
25:44,960 --> 25:48,620
statements, and Oppenheimer has lots of very short questions.
406
25:48,780 --> 25:51,020
Why? Which is processing.
407
25:51,440 --> 25:54,620
And my name came up. What have you found out? Like he's just,
408
25:54,620 --> 25:58,620
Just, you know, to Stu's point, is he trying to get information?
409
25:58,940 --> 26:03,760
Is he trying to, to your point, Judith, like surrender a little bit of power?
410
26:04,100 --> 26:09,440
There is definitely back and forth, but I feel like he's still not pushing as
411
26:09,440 --> 26:14,600
hard as he can yet, that he pushes a lot harder after that Alfred Noble.
412
26:15,670 --> 26:16,470
dynamite line?
413
26:16,730 --> 26:20,230
Well, here's the way I put it. And that doesn't mean that it's right.
414
26:20,510 --> 26:24,170
You know, the way that I talk about things, I don't mean that this is the only
415
26:24,170 --> 26:27,650
way to talk about them, the only way to think about them, the only way to do them.
416
26:27,730 --> 26:31,730
And I definitely don't mean that if Christopher Nolan didn't think of them this
417
26:31,730 --> 26:34,690
way, he should have. I definitely don't mean anything like that.
418
26:35,270 --> 26:40,150
But to me, I thought this whole, this whole beat, you know, it's a It's a getting-to-know-you
419
26:40,150 --> 26:44,730
beat, but with very high-powered people that want to do things fast.
420
26:45,130 --> 26:46,970
And so they're going to test each
421
26:46,970 --> 26:50,450
other. They're testing each other to see what the other guy is made of.
422
26:50,610 --> 26:55,230
And why I think the first beat ends with Alfred Nobel invented dynamite,
423
26:55,250 --> 26:59,150
because that is a definitive win for Oppenheimer. That's his definitive win.
424
26:59,330 --> 27:01,790
And at that moment, he has the job.
425
27:02,090 --> 27:03,970
He's not trying to get the job anymore.
426
27:04,310 --> 27:09,750
At that moment, he has the job. That's the way I see it. And then the next bead,
427
27:09,950 --> 27:12,130
Groves says, so how would you proceed?
428
27:12,670 --> 27:18,330
And so the next bead, I think, is strategizing. You already have a job.
429
27:18,670 --> 27:20,210
They're strategizing together.
430
27:20,550 --> 27:23,550
I think it's actually the first time Groves asks a question.
431
27:23,890 --> 27:27,270
Oppenheimer is not trying to prove anything at all anymore. He's saying,
432
27:27,410 --> 27:31,570
okay, let's get to work. They're 18 months ahead of us.
433
27:31,710 --> 27:35,530
And you're right. It is the first time Groves is asked a question.
434
27:35,530 --> 27:41,550
In a way, it's not every line, but there's a lot in that first beat of Oppenheimer
435
27:41,550 --> 27:42,990
asking questions, right?
436
27:43,070 --> 27:46,650
He's pulling information out of Groves, right?
437
27:46,750 --> 27:48,590
Nothing good, not even he's a brilliant but.
438
27:48,890 --> 27:52,070
I mean, sometimes he's choosing to make statements, you know,
439
27:52,070 --> 27:55,690
and my name came up. I love that that is a statement and not a question.
440
27:55,870 --> 27:59,090
Oppenheimer's like, well, of course my name came up. And so Groves says.
441
27:59,310 --> 27:59,570
No.
442
28:01,090 --> 28:04,710
It's like a nice little bit of win for Groves. But it is largely Oppenheimer
443
28:04,710 --> 28:06,110
pulling information from Groves.
444
28:06,190 --> 28:10,570
And as you say, part of that shift is after that definitive read from Oppenheimer,
445
28:10,690 --> 28:14,070
Alfred Noble invented dynamite is, so how would you proceed?
446
28:14,430 --> 28:18,450
Part of the reason we know it's a job is because Groves is actually interested
447
28:18,450 --> 28:20,130
in what Oppenheimer has to say.
448
28:20,210 --> 28:20,730
Right?
449
28:20,830 --> 28:24,290
And that is an emotion. That is a change in relationship. Even just going from
450
28:24,290 --> 28:28,110
making statements to someone to asking them questions is a bit of an emotional event.
451
28:28,370 --> 28:31,350
How would you proceed is really interesting for that reason.
452
28:31,350 --> 28:35,650
They're strategizing, but it's Groves interested in what Oppenheimer has to say here.
453
28:35,850 --> 28:38,430
The other thing is when I went back and watched the scene again,
454
28:38,510 --> 28:42,570
I roughed out where I thought the beats were, you know, just from the page.
455
28:42,730 --> 28:44,730
Then I went back and watched the scene again.
456
28:44,930 --> 28:47,810
And at this point, when Groves says, how would you proceed?
457
28:48,720 --> 28:57,760
Oppenheimer stands up. And that's a very smart directorial way to mark a beat change with blocking.
458
28:58,000 --> 29:03,440
It's physicalized, face-to-face at wide measure, and they're testing each other.
459
29:03,560 --> 29:07,100
I think they're both testing each other. I think, you know, Oppenheimer wants
460
29:07,100 --> 29:12,840
the job, but he knows that Groves wants somebody who will test him. They want the friction.
461
29:13,060 --> 29:16,260
They like the friction. They both work best with friction.
462
29:17,220 --> 29:20,680
I mean, poor Nichols, you know, he takes the coat and walks,
463
29:20,780 --> 29:22,340
takes it to the dry cleaner.
464
29:22,540 --> 29:27,160
Groves has no respect for Nichols. He wants somebody who's, that he can learn from.
465
29:27,300 --> 29:30,400
They both want to be around somebody that they can learn from,
466
29:30,500 --> 29:35,340
that they can sharpen their knives against. And that's what they find in that first beat.
467
29:35,540 --> 29:38,720
And they get to work. Now they are working.
468
29:38,960 --> 29:42,140
So let's just read that beat again. So how would you proceed?
469
29:42,460 --> 29:46,480
And just remember, in the movie, now Ebenheimer is standing up.
470
29:46,620 --> 29:52,160
And he's not exactly pacing, but he's got a sense of activity and movement to his body.
471
29:52,420 --> 29:53,680
So how would you proceed?
472
29:54,160 --> 29:58,900
You're talking about turning theory into a practical weapon system faster than the Nazis.
473
29:59,400 --> 30:00,900
You have a 12-month head start.
474
30:01,240 --> 30:01,580
18.
475
30:02,180 --> 30:03,800
How could you possibly know that?
476
30:04,060 --> 30:07,960
Our fast neutron research took six months. The man they've undoubtedly put in
477
30:07,960 --> 30:09,520
charge will have made that leap instantly.
478
30:10,040 --> 30:11,740
Who do you think they put in charge?
479
30:12,140 --> 30:16,520
Werner Heisenberg. He has the most intuitive understanding of atomic structure I've ever seen.
480
30:16,720 --> 30:17,580
You know his work?
481
30:17,920 --> 30:21,540
I know him. Just like I know Walter Boeck, von Weissacher, Diebner.
482
30:21,700 --> 30:25,340
In a straight race, the Germans win. We've got one hope.
483
30:26,360 --> 30:26,980
Which is?
484
30:27,360 --> 30:28,340
Anti-Semitism.
485
30:28,920 --> 30:29,440
What?
486
30:30,280 --> 30:34,880
Hitler called quantum physics Jewish science, said it right to Einstein's face.
487
30:35,340 --> 30:40,400
Our one hope is that Hitler's so blinded by hate, he's denied Heisenberg proper resources.
488
30:41,040 --> 30:43,620
Because it will take vast resources.
489
30:44,240 --> 30:48,720
Okay, right now I think it switches to the third beat. That can happen mid-speech, by the way.
490
30:48,980 --> 30:50,180
Oh, really? Yeah.
491
30:50,260 --> 30:56,140
So, because it'll take vast resources. Okay, new beat. This is B3.
492
30:56,420 --> 31:00,980
Our nation's best scientists working together. Right now, they're scattered.
493
31:01,400 --> 31:05,580
So I'm going to say B3 is his pitch for Los Alamos.
494
31:06,060 --> 31:10,280
I just love the arrogance of a guy to pitch his ranch as well.
495
31:10,680 --> 31:13,680
Yes. The Manhattan Project shouldn't face itself.
496
31:13,820 --> 31:16,940
Exactly. I happen to know a place that would be perfect.
497
31:17,920 --> 31:21,980
So right now, he's the best minds. He's talking about the Jewish brain drain
498
31:21,980 --> 31:25,720
from Europe. because of the persecution and the Holocaust.
499
31:26,100 --> 31:31,840
And he says, we have got them, but they're scattered, and we've got to put them in one place.
500
31:32,160 --> 31:35,420
And then Groves brings up this compartmentalization.
501
31:36,740 --> 31:41,660
So let's start reading that. Our nation's best scientists working together. Just start from there.
502
31:41,860 --> 31:45,340
Our nation's best scientists working together. Right now they're scattered.
503
31:45,580 --> 31:47,560
Which gives us compartmentalization.
504
31:48,020 --> 31:51,500
All minds have to see the whole task to contribute efficiently.
505
31:51,500 --> 31:55,680
Poor security may cost us the race, inefficiency will.
506
31:56,060 --> 31:58,400
The Germans know more than us anyway.
507
31:58,720 --> 31:59,760
The Russians don't.
508
31:59,820 --> 32:01,880
Remind me, who are we at war with?
509
32:02,220 --> 32:06,080
Someone with your past doesn't want to be seen downplaying the importance of
510
32:06,080 --> 32:07,900
security from our communist allies.
511
32:08,640 --> 32:10,740
Point taken. But no.
512
32:11,600 --> 32:12,960
You don't get to say no to me.
513
32:13,400 --> 32:15,740
It's my job to say no to you when you're wrong.
514
32:15,980 --> 32:17,100
You've got the job now?
515
32:17,340 --> 32:18,240
I'm considering it.
516
32:18,500 --> 32:21,880
I'm starting to see how you got your reputation. My favorite response?
517
32:22,500 --> 32:24,480
Oppenheimer couldn't run a hamburger stand.
518
32:25,060 --> 32:28,020
I couldn't, but I can run the Manhattan Project.
519
32:28,420 --> 32:33,520
Okay, now there's a shift. Now, this line, I'm starting to see how you got your reputation.
520
32:34,100 --> 32:38,240
Another mysterious line. I mean, it looks like he's a little bit of a put-down
521
32:38,240 --> 32:41,420
of Oppenheimer, but no, he likes that about him.
522
32:41,600 --> 32:47,900
Because he's talking about both the reputations, because Groves has a reputation for arrogance, too.
523
32:48,980 --> 32:55,020
And we've seen it in the scene when he throws the jacket at a lieutenant colonel,
524
32:55,020 --> 32:57,860
that he has a reputation for arrogance.
525
32:57,900 --> 33:02,180
He comes in there, he loosens his tie, he puts his arm up on a bookshelf or
526
33:02,180 --> 33:07,120
another chair, saying, you have a reputation for arrogance, just like me.
527
33:07,320 --> 33:08,700
That's a bonding moment.
528
33:09,300 --> 33:12,780
I actually think what's really interesting is about the you don't get to say
529
33:12,780 --> 33:15,880
no to me in a way to use colloquial terminology.
530
33:16,460 --> 33:21,520
It's kind of a bit of a shit test from Groves. He actually likes that Oppenheimer
531
33:21,520 --> 33:26,700
is able to speak his mind, but it's actually a bit of a test to see if Oppenheimer
532
33:26,700 --> 33:27,960
is going to wither a little bit.
533
33:28,600 --> 33:31,800
like in in my interpretation grows need
534
33:31,800 --> 33:34,620
someone who's going to speak his mind and because they need
535
33:34,620 --> 33:37,400
the win like they're fighting a war and trying to beat the
536
33:37,400 --> 33:40,500
nazis they don't need someone who's going to necessarily follow the
537
33:40,500 --> 33:43,200
party line in in a way so him saying you don't get to say
538
33:43,200 --> 33:49,160
no to me and i would say yes i do um he's actually a win grow saying so you've
539
33:49,160 --> 33:52,380
got the job now question mark it's actually you've definitely got the job now
540
33:52,380 --> 34:00,120
yeah right like it's like that's the The emotional event there is that acceptance
541
34:00,120 --> 34:01,220
of like, that's a good thing.
542
34:02,520 --> 34:07,640
And then the third part of the third beat is when he goes to the blackboard.
543
34:07,720 --> 34:10,840
That's the stage direction here. He goes to the blackboard, and that's how it's
544
34:10,840 --> 34:12,880
staged. He goes to the blackboard.
545
34:13,380 --> 34:15,300
There's a way to balance these things.
546
34:15,880 --> 34:19,140
So that's where we stopped when we did the big read-through,
547
34:19,260 --> 34:23,380
because you said that this is kind of moving into the last part of the… Yeah.
548
34:23,380 --> 34:26,220
This is like, I was thinking beat 3C.
549
34:27,020 --> 34:30,800
But in terms of the is there any more emotional event
550
34:30,800 --> 34:33,820
in this third part or is the
551
34:33,820 --> 34:36,860
reason we instinctively stopped because we actually had reached
552
34:36,860 --> 34:43,940
the emotional event you know they they started out sparring and then groves
553
34:43,940 --> 34:50,360
opens a window like opens a door for oppenheimer to pitch and then this third
554
34:50,360 --> 34:54,980
bit is them going like actually still sparring but agreeing essentially essentially,
555
34:55,000 --> 34:57,660
that he's got the job, that they're going to work together.
556
34:58,100 --> 35:02,720
I'm just looking for what happens. The first beat, they're sparring.
557
35:02,900 --> 35:06,300
They're fighting. They like to spar with each other. In the second beat,
558
35:06,360 --> 35:08,160
they're strategizing. That's different.
559
35:08,380 --> 35:13,360
They're strategizing. I do. It was great that you noticed that I hadn't noticed
560
35:13,360 --> 35:18,160
this, that in the first beat, Oppenheimer is asking the questions and the second beat, Groves is.
561
35:18,380 --> 35:22,160
I mean, because Oppenheimer knows physics and Groves doesn't, right?
562
35:22,820 --> 35:25,800
But Groves knows strategy. they're actually starting
563
35:25,800 --> 35:28,560
to work and so groves is asking him
564
35:28,560 --> 35:32,020
questions and oppenheimer is not saying look at what he's not saying he's not
565
35:32,020 --> 35:36,880
saying well i'll tell you that if you give me the job he's not saying that he's
566
35:36,880 --> 35:40,500
getting to work but then the third thing which has been on his mind from the
567
35:40,500 --> 35:46,020
beginning is he wants to get all these scientists and he wants to bring them to los alamos yeah.
568
35:46,020 --> 35:51,400
And my interpretation chas of your point about the is this the end of of the
569
35:51,400 --> 35:52,300
emotional event in the scene.
570
35:52,360 --> 35:58,360
No, I mean, I just see that the next section is actually ending from a page,
571
35:58,460 --> 36:01,200
a scene numbering count at the top of scene 67.
572
36:02,940 --> 36:06,620
As he pitches the idea, we start seeing it being built, right?
573
36:06,740 --> 36:11,200
And then it ends with Oppenheimer saying, welcome to Los Alamos.
574
36:11,560 --> 36:16,640
And they're there. So the emotional, like the end of that kind of beat is the
575
36:16,640 --> 36:18,240
success. Like the pitch worked.
576
36:18,680 --> 36:22,020
The change in relationship is they built it, right?
577
36:22,660 --> 36:26,740
For me, the scene doesn't actually end until where, you know,
578
36:26,760 --> 36:27,840
we physically move space.
579
36:28,160 --> 36:32,100
But it's the way it's written is it's like it's a continuation of the dialogue.
580
36:32,100 --> 36:35,920
And as he talks and pitches the idea, we kind of see it being built.
581
36:36,040 --> 36:39,720
And so we're beginning to see what he's talking about as actually happening.
582
36:39,840 --> 36:42,160
And then we see the success of it.
583
36:43,000 --> 36:47,340
Judith, I just wanted to know, you said that line about Oppenheimer couldn't
584
36:47,340 --> 36:50,220
run a hamburger stand wasn't a put down.
585
36:50,380 --> 36:55,420
And I agree. And it's that line that gives me the feeling that you said about
586
36:55,420 --> 36:59,760
what is Groves coming into the scene trying to achieve?
587
36:59,760 --> 37:04,240
Steve, because if he had heard from someone Oppenheimer couldn't run a hamburger
588
37:04,240 --> 37:07,940
stand and believed it, he wouldn't be in that room.
589
37:08,680 --> 37:13,820
Well, the roast doesn't like people who try to get a job by saying negative
590
37:13,820 --> 37:15,140
things about their competition.
591
37:16,060 --> 37:18,360
He doesn't like that kind of man at all.
592
37:19,720 --> 37:25,700
So those guys that say, oh, you know, he asked him about Oppenheimer and say,
593
37:25,780 --> 37:27,280
oh, he couldn't run a hamburger stand.
594
37:27,480 --> 37:29,520
That guy's out of the running. all.
595
37:29,520 --> 37:32,920
It's telling him is that obviously up and high if everyone is putting down oppenheimer
596
37:32,920 --> 37:35,240
then he is obviously the best one it's like.
597
37:35,240 --> 37:40,560
Yeah that's it if everyone is saying he's neurotic he's a womanizer he's a jerk
598
37:40,560 --> 37:42,940
that then that means he's the
599
37:42,940 --> 37:48,980
guy that they all have to beat so that's the guy i really have to see i'd.
600
37:48,980 --> 37:54,920
Just like to note that in this scene we're talking all about the the relationship
601
37:54,920 --> 38:00,860
between the characters and how riveting it is and how much it's actually moving.
602
38:00,940 --> 38:04,760
Like the scene is only three pages long, but it moves,
603
38:05,720 --> 38:10,160
back and forth so quickly and there's real shifts, but the amount of backstory
604
38:10,160 --> 38:14,780
and exposition that they've worked in there is huge.
605
38:15,040 --> 38:18,880
We've worked out that they've told us that Groves built the Pentagon.
606
38:19,240 --> 38:25,680
They've told us that the biggest problem engineering-wise is how much uranium ore they need to get.
607
38:25,860 --> 38:27,720
The issues around compartmentalization.
608
38:28,700 --> 38:31,720
Security, that they're concerned as much about Russia.
609
38:31,860 --> 38:35,980
We've got the scientific, scientific, even though they don't really go into
610
38:35,980 --> 38:37,800
the science, because none of us would understand it.
611
38:37,900 --> 38:43,200
Let's read this last bit, which is really lots of exposition, too.
612
38:43,720 --> 38:46,140
And I actually do, I'm going to
613
38:46,140 --> 38:49,400
bore you, Chas, but I do actually want to read to the bottom of page 50.
614
38:49,520 --> 38:49,860
Yeah, sure.
615
38:49,980 --> 38:52,220
Because it does a really interesting, because I think part of it,
616
38:52,260 --> 38:55,400
that the emotional event stuff that you're talking about and keeping us interested
617
38:55,400 --> 39:01,600
is the change in the rhythms of the dialogue that reflect the kind of the changing
618
39:01,600 --> 39:03,280
in the relationships between these two men.
619
39:03,500 --> 39:08,520
Please believe me, I'm not bored. I was just interested why we instinctively stopped at that point.
620
39:09,200 --> 39:13,060
I think it's a big bit. I think at this point Oppenheimer probably has won,
621
39:13,300 --> 39:17,200
but there is a difference between just winning the point and getting the job
622
39:17,200 --> 39:20,180
and actually seeing what we're about to see. All right.
623
39:20,320 --> 39:25,260
Now he's at the blackboard. And again, you know, I watched the scene again a
624
39:25,260 --> 39:30,020
few times and then in Grove's moves, he comes closer to the blackboard.
625
39:30,020 --> 39:35,320
He takes a chair, turns it around, and sits it in front of the blackboard like a student.
626
39:35,740 --> 39:41,840
I mean, this is brilliantly, brilliantly blocked and brilliantly written scene.
627
39:42,140 --> 39:46,680
Anyway, so let's read the rest. There's a way to balance these things. Starts there.
628
39:47,040 --> 39:52,060
There's a way to balance these things. Leave the rad lab here at Berkeley under
629
39:52,060 --> 39:54,920
Lawrence. Met lab in Chicago under Sillard.
630
39:55,300 --> 39:57,960
Large-scale refining, where did you say? Tennessee. to see?
631
39:58,260 --> 40:03,520
All America's industrial might and scientific innovation connected by rail focused
632
40:03,520 --> 40:09,000
on one goal, one point in space and time coming together here.
633
40:09,380 --> 40:13,840
Now, here's what I have to tell you. I think this conversation all took place in that room.
634
40:14,580 --> 40:20,880
Nolan made a very smart, I think, cinematic choice to show us what they're talking about.
635
40:21,260 --> 40:25,980
But in fact, this is all taking place in that room a.
636
40:25,980 --> 40:29,700
Secret laboratory in the middle of nowhere self-sufficient
637
40:29,700 --> 40:36,840
secure equipment housing the works we keep everyone there till it's done it'll
638
40:36,840 --> 40:43,020
need a school stores a church why if we don't let scientists bring their families
639
40:43,020 --> 40:48,620
we'll never get the best you want security build a town and build it fast where,
640
40:49,980 --> 40:54,960
Welcome to Los Alamos. There's a boys' school we'll have to commandeer and the
641
40:54,960 --> 40:57,200
local Indians come up here for burial rites.
642
40:57,340 --> 41:00,960
Other than that, nothing for 40 miles in any direction.
643
41:01,180 --> 41:05,980
And southeast, hundreds of miles of desert, enough to find the perfect spot.
644
41:06,840 --> 41:07,320
For?
645
41:08,060 --> 41:08,540
Success.
646
41:09,360 --> 41:12,980
It's funny that he says success. It's for, you know, pissing bombs.
647
41:13,040 --> 41:17,640
Blowing up. And I didn't think we would be getting into this section,
648
41:17,720 --> 41:21,360
so I didn't put the next page in our writing, but the next page is the button
649
41:21,360 --> 41:25,500
on the scene, which is Grove saying to Nichols, build this man a town.
650
41:26,700 --> 41:32,980
Success also works as a button in its own interesting way, you know? It's like...
651
41:32,980 --> 41:34,500
Well, they're not going to use
652
41:34,500 --> 41:39,040
the word bomb. They're using euphemisms for the word bomb all the time.
653
41:39,440 --> 41:44,420
They call it the gadget, they don't call it... Anyway, that's a lot of exposition, right?
654
41:44,960 --> 41:51,180
But what What makes it work is that the scene is not about the information,
655
41:51,280 --> 41:53,040
it's about the relationship.
656
41:53,580 --> 41:58,980
It's about two men discovering that they love working with each other.
657
41:59,520 --> 42:06,140
And actually, this relationship takes us all the way through Act 2 of the whole movie.
658
42:06,960 --> 42:12,280
This relationship is the centering string that takes us through all of Act Two,
659
42:12,340 --> 42:13,900
which is a lot of exposition.
660
42:14,100 --> 42:19,540
But the reason that it works is because it's about one central relationship,
661
42:19,780 --> 42:21,900
which is Oppenheimer and Groves.
662
42:22,340 --> 42:27,580
I'll just throw in my theories about Act One and Act Three, that Act Three is
663
42:27,580 --> 42:30,720
the relationship of Oppenheimer and Strauss.
664
42:30,980 --> 42:35,620
And then I have this kind of crazy theory. We should move on to the next thing.
665
42:35,620 --> 42:41,240
But I have this kind of crazy theory about Act One, which is it's kind of competing
666
42:41,240 --> 42:44,500
strands, two competing groups.
667
42:44,780 --> 42:51,060
They're the great men of science who he idolizes and also sometimes resents or fears.
668
42:51,320 --> 42:53,380
There's a group of them and he meets them all.
669
42:53,860 --> 42:56,740
So that's one group. And then women.
670
42:56,740 --> 43:04,260
and his compulsion, his inability to collect women notches in his belt and to
671
43:04,260 --> 43:08,100
pick the most difficult ones he can, you know, rainy, disturbed,
672
43:08,540 --> 43:11,660
unloving women, one after another.
673
43:12,060 --> 43:17,780
And both of those sort of as a group, women as a group, great men of science
674
43:17,780 --> 43:22,000
as a group, those are the relationships of the first act.
675
43:22,300 --> 43:26,400
And here's where I get all Freudian, that mother and his father.
676
43:26,740 --> 43:26,980
Yeah.
677
43:27,140 --> 43:30,800
Even though we never meet them and they're never spoken of, they are implied.
678
43:31,280 --> 43:34,380
Yeah. I was going to say, you get a sense that they're somewhere in there.
679
43:34,720 --> 43:40,780
Well, he was sent away to school. So, you know, it's the absence of them that,
680
43:40,840 --> 43:43,360
you know, drives that first act.
681
43:43,940 --> 43:46,880
Just a few quick straight observations for me.
682
43:47,280 --> 43:50,360
The connecting on that, I think that's actually as much as we were looking at
683
43:50,360 --> 43:55,540
the emotional event as on a scene level, right? The idea of looking at an act,
684
43:55,640 --> 43:59,700
looking at a sequence and going, what is the core relationship here?
685
44:00,620 --> 44:06,200
How does that change? I actually think it's a really useful tool for screenwriters.
686
44:06,520 --> 44:09,940
It's an important delivery system for plot.
687
44:10,340 --> 44:14,720
Yeah, but it will help connect emotion. And as we've talked about with stakes,
688
44:14,920 --> 44:18,920
Chas and I, we did an episode on stakes and we started realizing that stakes
689
44:18,920 --> 44:22,240
are about what people value and what people value is their relationship to things.
690
44:22,420 --> 44:25,600
So it's going to be connected to your stakes as well. All right.
691
44:25,760 --> 44:26,480
All right.
692
44:27,000 --> 44:32,400
Speaking of relationships that not only drive a whole act, but as Chas was pitching
693
44:32,400 --> 44:35,360
before, I'm stealing your thunder here, Chas.
694
44:36,420 --> 44:40,560
It's about time. I keep stealing your observations that you make off mic, so go for it, G.
695
44:41,580 --> 44:47,140
Well, you're just saying that the relationship in Casino Royale between Bond
696
44:47,140 --> 44:53,340
and Vespa absolutely drives the Daniel Craig Bond films for most of them,
697
44:53,340 --> 44:56,200
if not the whole series. What happens in this first film?
698
44:56,280 --> 45:00,800
And they realized the strength of that relationship was enough to kind of keep
699
45:00,800 --> 45:05,280
a character that was largely an unemotional, for lack of a better word,
700
45:05,380 --> 45:09,580
character in previous films had no attachments and were able to realize the
701
45:09,580 --> 45:11,600
power of using it to drive a whole film.
702
45:21,430 --> 45:28,530
How did he die? Your contact? Not well. You needn't worry. The second is...
703
45:29,770 --> 45:30,330
Yes.
704
45:32,510 --> 45:33,070
Considerably.
705
45:37,250 --> 45:40,810
The man was Le Chiffre, private banker to the world's terrorists,
706
45:41,210 --> 45:45,790
which would explain how he could set up a high-stakes poker game at Casino Royale in Montenegro.
707
45:45,790 --> 45:51,770
if he loses this game he'll have nowhere to run you're the best player in the service,
708
45:52,690 --> 45:58,950
the treasury has agreed to stake you in the game but if you lose our government
709
45:58,950 --> 46:04,010
will have directly financed terrorism i will be keeping my eye on our government's
710
46:04,010 --> 46:08,870
money and off your perfectly formed house you noticed.
711
46:08,870 --> 46:12,250
So casino royale
712
46:12,250 --> 46:15,810
is the the first daniel craig bond film the
713
46:15,810 --> 46:20,650
writer writing credits uh i was amused to see now this is we've got a script
714
46:20,650 --> 46:23,810
that was available online that has i'm not going to say the person but it does
715
46:23,810 --> 46:28,650
have a watermark on it so it is very clear who got this script out but the the
716
46:28,650 --> 46:33,190
credits on this version are a screenplay by neil purvis and and Robert Wade,
717
46:33,390 --> 46:37,730
and then second set of revisions by Paul Haggis in 2005.
718
46:38,150 --> 46:43,490
And the- I lobbied quite hard for these scenes to be in part of the homework
719
46:43,490 --> 46:47,450
because these two scenes, they're the two scenes- Bond and Vesper have just
720
46:47,450 --> 46:49,410
been engaged in a pretty brutal fistfight,
721
46:49,570 --> 46:53,570
which has ended with Bond killing a man by strangling him, in which Vesper was involved.
722
46:53,750 --> 47:00,990
And Vesper is an accountant, she was not a character of violence until this point in the movie.
723
47:01,640 --> 47:06,420
And then I just remember so strongly, and I still remember these two scenes
724
47:06,420 --> 47:09,040
in the bathroom after that fistfight.
725
47:09,200 --> 47:14,080
And we were looking for, Judith, just so you know, when we try to pick our homework,
726
47:14,140 --> 47:19,080
we try to pick a range of films, genres, stories, so that we can try and see
727
47:19,080 --> 47:22,240
the same tool working in different contexts.
728
47:22,660 --> 47:28,900
And it was so clear to me that these two scenes were there for emotional purposes.
729
47:29,040 --> 47:33,640
I couldn't enunciate better than that why. why and hopefully you can tell me i.
730
47:33,640 --> 47:36,300
Didn't watch the whole movie again i mean i saw it when
731
47:36,300 --> 47:39,660
i came out but i thought well maybe it's on youtube and
732
47:39,660 --> 47:44,200
you know i put casino royale and that's just the first thing that comes up oh
733
47:44,200 --> 47:49,920
really yeah oh wow yeah so it's a real emotional center to the movie anyway
734
47:49,920 --> 47:54,980
i i'm going to read some of the stage directions and you know you've just mentioned
735
47:54,980 --> 47:59,260
the writers and i don't mean to brag on them but i don't care for them very much,
736
48:00,760 --> 48:05,460
and i don't think that the actors followed them okay and that's the point that
737
48:05,460 --> 48:07,780
i want to make with this one i.
738
48:07,780 --> 48:08,720
Love a bit of controversy.
739
48:08,720 --> 48:14,400
But i gotta say i loved the character vesper i loved how she was written you
740
48:14,400 --> 48:18,620
know their first scene where they when they meet i thought oh gosh finally a
741
48:18,620 --> 48:23,500
bond girl who's really smart and really is his match you know so so i think
742
48:23,500 --> 48:27,380
they did a a great job writing Vesper for the most part.
743
48:28,080 --> 48:34,240
But, well, I'll say it right away. This is an example of a scene that's written from the male gaze.
744
48:34,660 --> 48:35,140
Definitely.
745
48:35,600 --> 48:40,840
But not performed that way. So, I don't know, you know, whether it was the director
746
48:40,840 --> 48:46,040
or the actors, but those actors were so strong and they were so connected to
747
48:46,040 --> 48:50,240
each other that I suspect that they got together and figured some things out together.
748
48:50,640 --> 48:54,100
Because some of the lines are left out. So anyway, uh,
749
48:55,200 --> 48:58,480
Bond lets himself in on doing his tie to reveal a creased shirt.
750
48:58,880 --> 49:03,260
Shadow bus, he sees Vesper's gown on the floor, empty wine bottle on the table.
751
49:03,340 --> 49:04,300
Here's her shower running.
752
49:05,120 --> 49:08,180
Tired and jaded, he doesn't think too much of it, pulls off his shirt.
753
49:08,300 --> 49:09,720
Yes, he has been sweating.
754
49:10,000 --> 49:13,780
He glances back at Vesper's suite, listens to the shower running,
755
49:13,960 --> 49:15,180
senses something's wrong.
756
49:16,140 --> 49:19,120
Vesper's bathroom, he enters, can't see her, now is becoming concerned.
757
49:19,200 --> 49:20,960
He sees a leg protruding from the shower.
758
49:21,060 --> 49:24,040
He turns the corner and finds her sitting in bra and panties.
759
49:24,040 --> 49:27,140
That's the male gaze. I'm sorry. She's wearing a dress in the movie.
760
49:28,480 --> 49:33,080
She's sitting there in a cocktail dress, and it's much stronger.
761
49:33,500 --> 49:36,840
Yeah. It's a stronger indication that she's in shock.
762
49:37,260 --> 49:41,100
Yeah. Clutching one knee to her chest, oblivious to the pelting water,
763
49:41,520 --> 49:44,740
James drops to the floor of the shower, throws his arm around her,
764
49:44,820 --> 49:48,520
and pulls her to him, letting the water run over both of them.
765
49:48,940 --> 49:53,680
Bond, shh. Vesper, you're all wet. Shh. That was all cut. But Vesper,
766
49:53,880 --> 49:55,400
I couldn't get the blood off.
767
49:55,520 --> 50:01,800
It's still under my nails. That line was changed to, there's blood on my hands. I can't get it off.
768
50:02,100 --> 50:05,800
Bond looks at his fingers, not a trace of blood. He puts each finger in his
769
50:05,800 --> 50:09,180
mouth and turn, not sexually, but as if to clean them.
770
50:09,320 --> 50:12,900
And of course, the non-sexual aspect of it is incredibly sexy.
771
50:13,100 --> 50:14,880
Okay, that's what I'm talking about, the male gaze.
772
50:15,980 --> 50:20,080
When done, Bond says, better. Vesper says, thanks.
773
50:20,240 --> 50:23,460
In the movie, she doesn't say thanks. she just gets
774
50:23,460 --> 50:26,780
closer to him bond you cold and
775
50:26,780 --> 50:29,500
then he turns the hot water on and then
776
50:29,500 --> 50:32,460
she appreciates the unusual and charming choice that he
777
50:32,460 --> 50:36,420
fails to acknowledge anything odd about her behavior she
778
50:36,420 --> 50:40,160
rests her head on his shoulder to sit there in the warm rain not saying a word
779
50:40,160 --> 50:48,160
anyway so they the actors played it not about sex but about love the emotional
780
50:48,160 --> 50:53,140
event is that these two are falling more deeply in love.
781
50:53,420 --> 50:57,000
So that's what I would call the emotional event. But putting it a different
782
50:57,000 --> 51:02,180
way to say what it's about, some of the writing makes it feel like it's about sex.
783
51:02,240 --> 51:04,240
And it's not about sex. It's about love.
784
51:04,840 --> 51:09,820
Yeah. I mean, even like she appreciates the unusual and charming choice.
785
51:10,060 --> 51:11,940
It's like this character is charming.
786
51:12,360 --> 51:15,420
But I think that is interesting, the love thing, because I also,
787
51:15,560 --> 51:19,800
for me, the emotional emotional event is about shared vulnerability,
788
51:20,260 --> 51:22,700
you know, she is feeling vulnerable and he,
789
51:23,720 --> 51:27,800
He's being vulnerable with her, you know, and I think shared vulnerability is
790
51:27,800 --> 51:29,680
a key part of being in love, I guess.
791
51:30,740 --> 51:31,220
Yeah.
792
51:31,380 --> 51:36,920
I think also I agree with you. It's about love. But to me, like the how does
793
51:36,920 --> 51:38,180
the character relationship change?
794
51:38,320 --> 51:42,900
They obviously do grow closer as a result of the scene. And that's kind of the
795
51:42,900 --> 51:44,640
importance of the scene existing.
796
51:44,760 --> 51:47,980
And to Stu's point, it's definitely about shared vulnerability.
797
51:48,120 --> 51:52,840
But it's the first time Bond has shown like a non-romantic form of love.
798
51:52,840 --> 51:57,600
Like an asexual form of love, a love that is about caring and nurturing.
799
51:57,980 --> 52:03,680
And that's why the big print probably feels such a smack, like such a contrast
800
52:03,680 --> 52:08,040
to the final film, is in the film you're saying it's asexual love,
801
52:08,360 --> 52:11,640
it's tenderness, where in this they can't keep on pointing out,
802
52:11,980 --> 52:16,140
oh, it's non-sexual, but that's actually what makes it really sexy.
803
52:16,340 --> 52:17,840
That makes it sexier than ever.
804
52:18,000 --> 52:19,280
Oh well.
805
52:19,280 --> 52:23,560
Well, and it's funny, I have to mention, you know, when I saw him put his fingers
806
52:23,560 --> 52:30,840
in his mouth, I hadn't heard a line about there's blood on my hands because the audio wasn't good.
807
52:31,040 --> 52:36,300
But the gesture reminded me of when I was a child and I grew up in a cold environment
808
52:36,300 --> 52:38,520
in New England, back east in the U.S.
809
52:39,160 --> 52:42,440
And, you know, in the winter, little kids' hands would get cold.
810
52:43,640 --> 52:48,940
Sometimes my mother would, if my hands were cold, she would take them and put them under her arms.
811
52:49,280 --> 52:54,000
you know to warm them and that's that's what it made me think of that that he
812
52:54,000 --> 52:59,500
was warming her there is a you know protective you know i'm going to take care
813
52:59,500 --> 53:05,420
of you even if you feel like a child and there is something like that but rather
814
53:05,420 --> 53:08,400
than saying it's not sexual mind up what it is.
815
53:09,640 --> 53:13,780
Yeah, imagine if it said, not sexually, but in a nurturing way.
816
53:14,020 --> 53:16,620
As soon as you're saying it's non-sexual, you're drawing people's attention
817
53:16,620 --> 53:19,400
to the ways in which, which is possibly why they've done it.
818
53:19,760 --> 53:21,980
I've had producers' notes about making stuff.
819
53:22,420 --> 53:26,280
Oh, this moment could be sexier. Can you make this moment sexier? And you're like, ugh.
820
53:27,660 --> 53:31,720
But I think, to your point, and in your books, you've talked about the magic
821
53:31,720 --> 53:34,280
of the as-if and how that's useful for direction.
822
53:34,440 --> 53:38,040
We've read, obviously, over 100 episodes, We've read a lot of different people's
823
53:38,040 --> 53:40,200
scripts and we've looked at so-called unfilmables.
824
53:40,300 --> 53:43,900
And sometimes lines like, he,
825
53:44,060 --> 53:48,080
you know, warms a hand, like he's a parent comforting a child is actually really
826
53:48,080 --> 53:51,180
effective in a screenplay as well, because you're giving the,
827
53:51,240 --> 53:55,520
you're engaging the imagination of the actor rather than just simply describing
828
53:55,520 --> 53:57,720
what you see. You're giving them something to play with.
829
53:57,860 --> 54:00,680
And I think that can be a really powerful tool.
830
54:00,980 --> 54:03,660
Again, I mean, this is me just plugging your book, but it's like,
831
54:03,680 --> 54:06,540
that's one of the reasons I think the book is really useful for actors because
832
54:06,540 --> 54:12,180
you sit there and go, in a way, the script is the first director of the actors.
833
54:12,420 --> 54:16,440
Sometimes actors will read a screenplay before they even have a chance to talk to the director.
834
54:16,560 --> 54:21,740
So the words the writer is using are going to inform how an actor is potentially
835
54:21,740 --> 54:22,920
going to approach the role.
836
54:23,160 --> 54:27,320
And so using some of these things that you've talked about as words on the page
837
54:27,320 --> 54:28,700
can be really quite powerful.
838
54:28,700 --> 54:34,140
I do know that the line, she appreciates the unusual and charming choice in
839
54:34,140 --> 54:38,180
that he fails to acknowledge anything odd about her behavior, if they just-
840
54:38,950 --> 54:41,130
the charming bit out.
841
54:41,370 --> 54:44,110
Just take that line out, but just take the whole sentence out.
842
54:44,290 --> 54:47,150
I was, I was going to say like to Sue's point, like you don't need it.
843
54:47,190 --> 54:50,250
You know, you could just have her leaning on his shoulder and that says everything
844
54:50,250 --> 54:52,110
about the emotional event.
845
54:52,210 --> 54:57,050
They have come closer, but I do think what it is that Bond has actually offered
846
54:57,050 --> 55:03,250
her that allows her to be closer to him is his complete absence of judgment
847
55:03,250 --> 55:06,370
of her, of she's wearing a dress in the shower.
848
55:06,770 --> 55:10,710
Well, but let's see, He got her into this. He got her into this.
849
55:10,750 --> 55:12,510
She didn't sign up to be an assassin.
850
55:12,810 --> 55:16,770
He signed up to be an assassin. She didn't. He got her into this.
851
55:16,870 --> 55:19,110
Okay? That's the basic fact.
852
55:19,430 --> 55:22,190
And he's obligated to take care of her.
853
55:23,010 --> 55:28,570
She's getting the emotional fallout. And he has to take some of that on for her.
854
55:28,850 --> 55:32,690
I mean, I certainly read that into the symbolism of him taking her fingers into
855
55:32,690 --> 55:36,350
his mouth is to me him kind of being,
856
55:36,450 --> 55:39,690
for lack of a better word, like a bit of a sin eater i mean except it's his
857
55:39,690 --> 55:44,730
sins but it's like this isn't the blood on your hands this is this is blood
858
55:44,730 --> 55:47,370
that i put there that that is something that i i read into it.
859
55:47,370 --> 55:50,350
There you go okay at the sin eater but yeah oh wow.
860
55:50,350 --> 55:54,690
But i think that's why it's such a powerful gesture because it's got a degree
861
55:54,690 --> 55:59,550
of like there's a physical intimacy to it so you can kind of read it just on
862
55:59,550 --> 56:04,550
a level of of physical intimacy between two people but you can read the gesture
863
56:04,550 --> 56:06,930
as having kind of a symbolic meaning beyond that,
864
56:07,030 --> 56:09,830
but it doesn't try to dictate it to it.
865
56:09,870 --> 56:12,750
So I actually think it makes it powerful because people can fill that gap.
866
56:13,760 --> 56:18,040
Could we possibly throw the writer's a bone here and say that the emotional
867
56:18,040 --> 56:23,140
event that they have put in this scene through the dramatization,
868
56:23,240 --> 56:29,080
through what the actors are actually doing, has survived the possible producer pass of make this sexy?
869
56:31,040 --> 56:32,420
Well, sure. Sure.
870
56:35,540 --> 56:41,620
Well, anyway, I think that Daniel Craig and Ava Greene had a lot to do with
871
56:41,620 --> 56:45,860
saying it's going to be stronger if she's just gotten into the shower without
872
56:45,860 --> 56:47,360
taking off her cocktail dress.
873
56:47,600 --> 56:51,020
I mean, it makes more emotional sense anyway.
874
56:51,340 --> 56:56,140
She walks into a room, she tries to pour a glass of wine. And the thing is that
875
56:56,140 --> 56:58,000
it's not an empty wine bottle.
876
56:58,120 --> 57:01,020
There's a glass of wine that's broken. broken so to
877
57:01,020 --> 57:05,500
me she's tried to pour a glass of wine and but her hand is shaking and the glass
878
57:05,500 --> 57:10,200
breaks and then she just stumbles into the bathroom and gets under the water
879
57:10,200 --> 57:13,880
and she gets under cold water because she feels she deserves to be punished
880
57:13,880 --> 57:18,600
so i'm going how did this scene come about and.
881
57:18,600 --> 57:22,020
That's a really powerful example i think if you using
882
57:22,020 --> 57:26,640
what i would call given circumstances uh you'd probably think you'd kind of
883
57:26,640 --> 57:30,380
call it the big fat facts or you know you just looked at what's written in the
884
57:30,380 --> 57:33,320
scene and going this is that she's used cold water and you've kind of built
885
57:33,320 --> 57:38,940
the emotional understanding of that based on the very simple facts of the scene.
886
57:38,940 --> 57:45,440
Yeah but i also imagine how would a real person get it how would this happen to a real person real.
887
57:45,440 --> 57:49,240
Person yeah shall we move on to past lives.
888
57:49,240 --> 57:52,980
Okay okay there's.
889
57:52,980 --> 58:00,240
A word in korean Korean, inyeon, it means providence or fate.
890
58:01,180 --> 58:06,160
Do you believe in that? That's just something Koreans say to seduce someone.
891
58:21,230 --> 58:24,850
childhood sweethearts who reconnect 20 years later and realize they were meant
892
58:24,850 --> 58:30,770
for each other in the story i would be the evil white american husband standing in the way of destiny,
893
58:31,390 --> 58:34,310
shut up he's just this kid in my
894
58:34,310 --> 58:42,150
head for such a long time i think he just missed him did he miss you all.
895
58:42,150 --> 58:48,210
Right this is very clearly in three sections right uh the first section the
896
58:48,210 --> 58:49,370
three of them are talking.
897
58:49,650 --> 58:52,190
The second section, Nora and
898
58:52,190 --> 58:57,290
Hyesung are talking together in Korean with Arthur still sitting there.
899
58:57,450 --> 59:03,750
The third section, Nora has gone to the bathroom and Hyesung and Arthur speak
900
59:03,750 --> 59:06,150
to each other. So we'll stop after each.
901
59:06,430 --> 59:11,170
I mostly want to talk about some amazing interviews that I read with Celine
902
59:11,170 --> 59:16,610
Fong that I think are very useful, but shall we read it Would that be fun?
903
59:16,750 --> 59:20,590
Yeah. I'll just, for the sake of the record, give a little bit of introduction
904
59:20,590 --> 59:22,850
for those who haven't seen it, though you should.
905
59:22,910 --> 59:27,290
It's a fantastically beautifully directed, beautifully written film. Yeah.
906
59:27,490 --> 59:29,830
It's a written, directed by Celine Song.
907
59:30,130 --> 59:35,170
And it follows, on one level, it follows two childhood friends over the course of 24 years.
908
59:35,650 --> 59:40,370
But really, it's about Nora. She emigrates to America when she's 12,
909
59:40,470 --> 59:45,170
and she kind of leaves a boy behind in Korea. And then we follow her as an adult,
910
59:45,410 --> 59:50,090
and she ends up marrying an American called Arthur.
911
59:50,610 --> 59:54,690
And then Haesung, her kind of, I'm going to use the word crush,
912
59:55,010 --> 59:57,250
but there's, you know, he's important to her.
913
59:57,510 --> 01:00:01,350
And I think it is more than a crush, but he comes to visit her in America.